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View Full Version : How to spend $7MM "saved" trading CLee


OG4LIFE
12-13-2004, 06:40 PM
Folks,

Based on some of the things KW has said regarding trades, FA signings and the budget, i truly think this move made sense in so many ways. there is first the obvious in moving our team towards more pitching/defense/consistent opportunistic offense, which i am pretty excited about. KW has previously said that in order to grab a FA, some room needed to be cleared through trades. GUESS WHAT. we've now got about 7 mil cleared. Just the perfect amount to offer a solid FA starter....

heres what i think:

scott podsednik + vizcaino (electric stuff) + ptbnl + #2,#3 starter IS MUCH BETTER THAN CARLOS LEE BY HIMSELF.

anyone out there got a list of FA starters still available? the ones that jump off the top of my head are clement, o. perez, DEREK LOWE (my personal favorite)... who else is available to complete our rotation?

DaleJRFan
12-13-2004, 06:46 PM
ESPN.com has a nice chart of Free Agent activity, all the available FAs and who has signed where, etc...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents

Risk
12-13-2004, 06:49 PM
All right, I'll bite.


Initially, I was not at all happy with this trade, and I'm still not. However, I was also not happy with the Bears when they drafted Tommie Harris, and since I have been pleasently suprised. If KW is able to get the Sox a legit, high quality starter the likes of either Clement, Perez, or Lowe, from the cash freed up by this trade, then I think it is worth it. If not--just another example of the organization taking a crap on all of us fans that we'll have to gripe about and reluctantly deal with for many years to come. God I just hope it works.

Risk

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 06:51 PM
Well, this thread was inevitable.
:cool:

FightingBillini
12-13-2004, 06:52 PM
I know we had to dump salary due to the fact that we are owned by the Grinch. However, I think I speak for most of us when I say I wish it would have been Konerko.
:reinsy
"Grinch, eh? I like that. Just wait to see how I ruin Christmas this time. You will walk out to your doorstep on the 25th to see the newspaper headline "So Long, Sosa - Cubs trade aging slugger to Sox for Garcia, Buehrle, and Rowand"

DaleJRFan
12-13-2004, 06:52 PM
Here is a list of reasonable FA Starters... all things considered:

Matt Clement
Jose Lima
Esteban Loaiza
Derek Lowe
Kevin Milwood
Eric Milton
Odalis Perez

Roughly 5 of these 7 would be categorized as "never happen" so I'd wager either Perez or Clement.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 06:55 PM
:reinsy
"Damn you Sox Fans! Is that all you think of, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY?!?"

cbrownson13
12-13-2004, 06:56 PM
Here is a list of reasonable FA Starters... all things considered:

Matt Clement
Jose Lima
Esteban Loaiza
Derek Lowe
Kevin Milwood
Eric Milton
Odalis Perez

Roughly 5 of these 7 would be categorized as "never happen" so I'd wager either Perez or Clement.
You forgot Todd Ritchie.

Randar68
12-13-2004, 06:56 PM
Here is a list of reasonable FA Starters... all things considered:

Matt Clement
Jose Lima
Esteban Loaiza
Derek Lowe
Kevin Milwood
Eric Milton
Odalis Perez

Roughly 5 of these 7 would be categorized as "never happen" so I'd wager either Perez or Clement.Let's add Catcher to the dockett, since that's probably a more concerning hole IMO.

Lowe would be my #1 and #2 choice all factors considered.

Greg Zaunn would be a better option than Burke.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 06:57 PM
Just a note-

People are saying we could/should have got a lot more from CLee. And I would agree...if we were TRADING EQUAL SALARIES. But we aren't. We are getting a quality bullpen guy and a guy that stole 70 bases and plays solid defense for less than 2 million. That means A LOT.

We probably could of traded CLee for a good name player at a different position or something. Instead, KW will parlay that into a starter...add that to the fact that we didn't trade Garland...and we have a very solid 1-5 that gives us a chance to win each time out.

Buerhle
Garcia
Perez (?)
Contreras
Garland

I'd say that is better than Grilli bringing up the rear.

All can shut you down on any given night. Our lineup still has pop with Frank, Konerko (right now) and Dye. We have speed in Harris Rowand and Podsednik.

Our bullpen is looking much better than last year with 4 quality arms in Shingo, Vizcaino, Marte, Pollitte and Hermanson. Better than Shingo, Polittle and Marte...and Adkins and Grilli.

OG4LIFE
12-13-2004, 06:59 PM
Some more potential FA's i would like:


Paul Byrd
Orlando Hernandez
Aaron Sele

each of these guys would not be too pricey, and definitely wouldnt be the nightmare in the 5 spot we saw last year. i think if we can get these guys, or any bigger name signed, we win 85+ games next year (assuming no injuries, which unfortunately is inevitable). either way, once/if we get that last starter signed, i like next year's team a lot better.

Navaro's Talent
12-13-2004, 07:00 PM
Kenny has money left to spend, and he knows that we Sox fans won't let him get away with not spending it. He'll get a starting pitcher. Will it be Matt Clement? It would be really nice, but the Sox will have to go into a bidding frenzy with the Red Sox and Angels. Can KW spend as much as those two teams? I certainly hope so. It really depends on how much money JR is willing to let go of.

Getting Perez seems like more of a sure thing, although, I've never been very high on the guy. He complains a lot when things aren't working to his advantage, which is an attitude I think KW needs to keep off the Sox.

I would love to see Eric Milton come here, but what kind of price would the Sox have to pay for him? He can probably get much more than Clement. The guy knows the AL really well, which is a huge plus in bringing him to the South Side.

Randar68
12-13-2004, 07:01 PM
Grudzielanek at 2nd base?

DaleJRFan
12-13-2004, 07:01 PM
You forgot Todd Ritchie.
LOL!!!

I, um, well... kinda left some guys out :D:

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 07:05 PM
Grudzielanek at 2nd base?
Now that is an option I would be in favor of.

I would also like Hillenbrand to play 1B/3B platoon if Gload/Crede can't cut it. I am not ready to annoint Gload a starting 1B, and Crede is Crediocre.

I think Hillenbrand could play 3B or 1B in a pinch, as well as DH on occaision. He had a solid year last year posting over a .800 OPS.

FightingBillini
12-13-2004, 07:08 PM
To all the people who talk about Hillenbrand being "AAA Shea" and a platoon player, how did he start an All-Star Game with Boston? Did he have a monster season, and suck there after?

Tragg
12-13-2004, 07:10 PM
Sign Wilson Alvarez for $1 million

Give $6 million to JR and his minority shareholders - the stock market's had another blah year, and they need to improve their returns

mdep524
12-13-2004, 07:11 PM
Here is a list of reasonable FA Starters... all things considered:

Esteban Loaiza
Hahaha. Imagine if the Sox cut CLee's salary to make a play for Esteban Loaiza.

:KW
Due to our policy of acquiring an aging mediocre players at least twice in their career, we were forced to cut Carlos Lee to make room for Loaiza's return.

kojak
12-13-2004, 08:05 PM
All this talk about signing a pitcher still leaves us with a pile of dung at the bottom of our batting order:

7) Crede, 3B
8) Harris, 2B
9) Davis, C

All three of these gems are more likely to hit below .250 than above. How do you contend with 1/3rd of your lineup essentially useless?

MeanFish
12-13-2004, 08:21 PM
Harris already hits above .250 (and looks more likely to hit above .270 than below next season), and I suspect Crede will improve a decent amount (roughly a .270 avg). Davis is my only worry.

batmanZoSo
12-13-2004, 08:22 PM
Just a note-

People are saying we could/should have got a lot more from CLee. And I would agree...if we were TRADING EQUAL SALARIES. But we aren't. We are getting a quality bullpen guy and a guy that stole 70 bases and plays solid defense for less than 2 million. That means A LOT.

We probably could of traded CLee for a good name player at a different position or something. Instead, KW will parlay that into a starter...add that to the fact that we didn't trade Garland...and we have a very solid 1-5 that gives us a chance to win each time out.

Buerhle
Garcia
Perez (?)
Contreras
Garland

I'd say that is better than Grilli bringing up the rear.

All can shut you down on any given night. Our lineup still has pop with Frank, Konerko (right now) and Dye. We have speed in Harris Rowand and Podsednik.

Our bullpen is looking much better than last year with 4 quality arms in Shingo, Vizcaino, Marte, Pollitte and Hermanson. Better than Shingo, Polittle and Marte...and Adkins and Grilli.
Exactly. Part of what we're getting is freed up salary in addition to a leadoff guy that gives us something we didn't have at all and more bullpen help. And this allows us to get Clement or someone.

stl_sox_fan
12-13-2004, 08:35 PM
ESPN.com has a nice chart of Free Agent activity, all the available FAs and who has signed where, etc...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents
Very concise page. The only thing missing is their representation. If it Boras you can put him in the not interested column.

http://i.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/01/12/bb0119/p1_boras.jpg
My name is Scott Boras. I represent athletes. These are my stories.

fire4725
12-13-2004, 08:54 PM
10 bucks says Loaiza. Williams brought back a bunch of crap players last season that he let go so what's to say he won't this year!

CPditka
12-13-2004, 09:00 PM
as heard on 720:

"We are in the game now, we now have the flexibility to make a move in June or July if we have to. "
-KW



PUKE:angry:

:gulp:Time to drink up

Lip Man 1
12-13-2004, 09:00 PM
As posted on another thread. Kenny Williams was on WGN radio tonight and said that this move gives the Sox the financial flexibility IN JUNE OR JULY to add another pitcher if needed.

He said the price for pitching right now is 'scary high.'

If he is telling the truth then get ready for Jason Grilli as the Sox 5th starter. meanwhile the money saved by dumping Lee goes right into Uncle Jerry's bank account where it collects interest until mid summer. (of course if the Sox are ten games out and in 3rd place it'll be collecting interest even longer!) LOL

Lip

rwcescato
12-13-2004, 09:02 PM
Just a note-

People are saying we could/should have got a lot more from CLee. And I would agree...if we were TRADING EQUAL SALARIES. But we aren't. We are getting a quality bullpen guy and a guy that stole 70 bases and plays solid defense for less than 2 million. That means A LOT.

We probably could of traded CLee for a good name player at a different position or something. Instead, KW will parlay that into a starter...add that to the fact that we didn't trade Garland...and we have a very solid 1-5 that gives us a chance to win each time out.

Buerhle
Garcia
Perez (?)
Contreras
Garland

I'd say that is better than Grilli bringing up the rear.

All can shut you down on any given night. Our lineup still has pop with Frank, Konerko (right now) and Dye. We have speed in Harris Rowand and Podsednik.

Our bullpen is looking much better than last year with 4 quality arms in Shingo, Vizcaino, Marte, Pollitte and Hermanson. Better than Shingo, Polittle and Marte...and Adkins and Grilli.
I just hope another starter is in the mix. Getting rid of Lee is not what I wanted for posednik. With that being said, All I want to do is win and I don't care who is on the team. Let us all be lucky for fricking season.

pinwheels3530
12-13-2004, 09:17 PM
We are not going to spend the extra money.....just like we were never going to get Beltran, Johnson, Vasquez, Clement, Perez, Sheets and whoever else we have been dreaming of the last month or so........bottom line JR won't spend that's why we always have to trade good players (C Lee 300, 30, 100 ) to get something. We never sign any top line FA's its the same crap year after year after year after year after year...............etc:angry: :(: :rolleyes: :redface: :mad:

Hitmen77
12-13-2004, 10:00 PM
Sox lose Maggs and CLee in the same week? Yayyyy!!!! Merry Christmas you ol' building and loan!

I see a new promotion night coming for 2005 - "Warm Cup of Spit Night" at the Cell!

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 10:04 PM
Sox lose Maggs and CLee in the same week? Yayyyy!!!! Merry Christmas you ol' building and loan!
:reinsy
"Merry Christmas to you, too! IN JAIL! Go home! They're waiting for you!!!"

Ah, you gotta love any miserable Sox trade thread where you can weave in a reference to "It's a Wonderful Life."

:bandance::supernana::bandance:

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 10:07 PM
I can't believe I actually believed for one brief shining moment that the team would actually spend the money they gained by dumping Carlos...

:reinsy
"Spend $7M? You just watch me. My boat needs a new gold toilet and the jet is a couple of years old. You don't want your fearless leader flying around to meetings with the other owners and looking like a laughing stock now do you? I mean come on. Pohlad is worth like $3 Billion... that's with a B people. How the heck am I ever going to get that wealthy if I have to actually field a competitive team. I gave you 4 veteran starters this coming season. I gave you a guy who can bunt. I gave Kenny the ability to say, 'wait until June or July' with a straight face. I give and I give and I give... When do I get mine back. Did I mention the boat's gold toilet broke?"

FarWestChicago
12-13-2004, 10:11 PM
I can't believe I actually believed for one brief shining moment that the team would actually spend the money they gained by dumping Carlos...:reinsy

I've always admired the Pirates approach to building a winning team.

DaleJRFan
12-13-2004, 10:12 PM
Hahaha. Imagine if the Sox cut CLee's salary to make a play for Esteban Loaiza.

:KW
Due to our policy of acquiring an aging mediocre players at least twice in their career, we were forced to cut Carlos Lee to make room for Loaiza's return.
HAHA.. that's just plain awesome. :D:

Rocklive99
12-13-2004, 10:16 PM
Andy Ashby (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4668)
Pedro Astacio (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4870)
Paul Byrd (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5468)
Roger Clemens (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3340)
Matt Clement (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6099)
Omar Daal (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5009)
Shawn Estes (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5537)
Jeff Fassero (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4639)
Orlando Hernandez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6019)
Jose Lima (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5212)
Esteban Loaiza (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5368)
Derek Lowe (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5801)
Pedro Martinez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4875)
Kevin Millwood (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5848)
Eric Milton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5944)
Terry Mulholland (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3952)
Hideo Nomo (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5375)
Darren Oliver (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5127)
Carl Pavano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5945)
Odalis Perez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6088)
Todd Ritchie (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5766)
Aaron Sele (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5062)
Steve Sparks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5327)
Ismael Valdez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5261)
Todd Van Poppel (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4775)
Jamey Wright (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5650)


This is the list off that ESPN link that was posted, some on there have already signed though but I guess haven't been officially announced (Pavano, Pedro, etc)

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 10:18 PM
:KW
"Mr. PHG we have bad news. There is deficit. Maggs and Lee are both gone."

:ohno
"Yes, I know. Isn't it great! We're heading for fourth place in the A.L. Central! What's this? A warrant for my arrest? Great! Who are these people? Reporters? Have you heard the news? I'm going to jail! Merry Christmas, everyone!"

See. It's not such a bad life being a Sox Fan...

:)

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 10:18 PM
if (navigator.OS == 'mac') if(navigator.family == 'nn4') { document.write(''); } else { document.write(''); } else { if(navigator.family == 'nn4') { document.write(''); } else { document.write(''); } } Monday, December 13, 2004
Free Agent Tracker: Starting Pitcher

Select Old TeamAll TeamsAnaheimArizonaAtlantaBaltimoreBostonChicago CubsChicago SoxCincinnatiClevelandColoradoDetroitFloridaHousto nKansas CityLos AngelesMilwaukeeMinnesotaMontrealNY MetsNY YankeesOaklandPhiladelphiaPittsburghSan DiegoSan FranciscoSeattleSt. LouisTampa BayTexasToronto Select New TeamAll TeamsAnaheimArizonaAtlantaBaltimoreBostonChicago CubsChicago SoxCincinnatiClevelandColoradoDetroitFloridaHousto nKansas CityLos AngelesMilwaukeeMinnesotaMontrealNY MetsNY YankeesOaklandPhiladelphiaPittsburghSan DiegoSan FranciscoSeattleSt. LouisTampa BayTexasToronto Select PositionAll PositionsStarting PitcherRelief PitcherCatcherFirst BaseSecond BaseThird BaseShortstopLeft FieldCenter FieldRight FieldDesignated Httr Available (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?type=avail&positionId=15) | Signed (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?type=signed&positionId=15) | Feedback (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/mailbagESPN?event_id=3068)
2004 Free AgentsPlayerAgeStatusOld TeamNew TeamYearsDollarsAndy Ashby (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4668)37Free AgentSan Diego--Pedro Astacio (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4870)35Free AgentBoston--Paul Byrd (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5468)34Free AgentAtlanta--Roger Clemens (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3340)42Free AgentHouston--Matt Clement (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6099)30Free AgentChicago Cubs--Omar Daal (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5009)32Free AgentBaltimore--Shawn Estes (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5537)31Free AgentColorado--Jeff Fassero (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4639)41Free AgentArizona--Orlando Hernandez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6019)35Free AgentNY Yankees--Jose Lima (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5212)32Free AgentLos Angeles--PlayerAgeStatusOld TeamNew TeamYearsDollarsEsteban Loaiza (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5368)32Free AgentNY Yankees--Derek Lowe (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5801)31Free AgentBoston--Pedro Martinez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4875)33Free AgentBoston--Kevin Millwood (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5848)29Free AgentPhiladelphia--Eric Milton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5944)29Free AgentPhiladelphia--Terry Mulholland (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3952)41Free AgentMinnesota--Hideo Nomo (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5375)36Free AgentLos Angeles--Darren Oliver (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5127)34Free AgentHouston--Carl Pavano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5945)28Free AgentFlorida--Odalis Perez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6088)27Free AgentLos Angeles--PlayerAgeStatusOld TeamNew TeamYearsDollarsTodd Ritchie (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5766)33Free AgentTampa Bay--Aaron Sele (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5062)34Free AgentAnaheim--Steve Sparks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5327)39Free AgentArizona--Ismael Valdez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5261)31Free AgentFlorida--Todd Van Poppel (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4775)33Free AgentCincinnati--Jamey Wright (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5650)29Free AgentColorado--


This is the list off that ESPN link that was posted, some on there have already signed though but I guess haven't been officially announced (Pavano, Pedro, etc)
It's all so clear to me now.....:)

Rocklive99
12-13-2004, 10:20 PM
LOL, it copied the whole codes and everything from ESPN.com, kind of fixed it

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 10:28 PM
"Merry Christmas to you, too! IN JAIL! Go home! They're waiting for you!!!"

Ah, you gotta love any miserable Sox trade thread where you can weave in a reference to "It's a Wonderful Life."
:voodoowithawildeyedlook
"KENNY! Kenny? Have you seen my leftfielder? Please I have to see him."

:KW
"I'm not supposed to tell you... He's just about to pack his bags. He's moving to Milwaukee. He never won a championship in Chicago. He's just too expensive."

:voodoowithhisheadonhisdesk
"Please Kenny... I want to win again. I want to win again. I want to win again."
(cue falling ash from fireworks - a burning ember light's his Sox hat on fire and he is forced to throw it in the river which suddenly appears before him)

:reinsy
"Better jump in and save that sucker. A new one is going to cost you plenty. And remember... No man is a failure who buys season tickets and everytime a cash register bell rings, I feel like I have wings..."

(pinches his nose and warms up his vocals)

memememememememe... that ought to do it...

Good King Reinsdorf looked out ere the feast of stevens
merchandise lay all about priced beyond believin'
Gee said good king Reinsdorf - such expensive presents
Isn't it a lucky thing I can tax the pea-eh-sents...
(with apologies to the late great Mike Royko whom I totally ripped off)

OurBitchinMinny
12-13-2004, 10:38 PM
Nah JR wont use it on the white sox. I bet he uses it on the bulls. After all that club is only one good move away from winning 20 games this year

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 10:38 PM
:KW
"Listen! Mr. Reinsdorf says, 'Everytime a cash register bell rings... I can use my payroll flexibility to add a pitcher next June/July!'"

:reinsy
"You mean to tell me he actually fell for that one?"

Rocklive99
12-13-2004, 10:44 PM
Nah JR wont use it on the white sox. I bet he uses it on the bulls. After all that club is only one good move away from winning 20 games this year
I am a Bulls fan, but it made me a little peeved when I heard we were seriously in the Kobe sweepstakes, and just needed the okay from him, after what we go through with this team. That's the biggest reason why I think he should cell, I mean sell ( ;) ) one and devote all his attention to the other

mikef1331
12-13-2004, 11:43 PM
I just finished watching the segment on Comcast SportsNite about the trade and they had a phone interview with KW about it.

He said the Sox have extra money to spend on acquiring another player "NOW". No mention of waiting to spend the cash as other people have reported. They also asked KW if he was interested in Clement... his response was "Yeah. I've heard of him."

It's hard to tell what the Sox will do next, KW is still flying under the radar.

Tragg
12-13-2004, 11:54 PM
:reinsy

I've always admired the Pirates approach to building a winning team.
Ahhhhh

When I read that quote from him a few years back, I almost lost my lunch. Just unbelievable.

TheBull19
12-13-2004, 11:54 PM
To all the people who talk about Hillenbrand being "AAA Shea" and a platoon player, how did he start an All-Star Game with Boston? Did he have a monster season, and suck there after?
I think he hit about .310 for the D'backs last year, considering they had the worst lineup in the majors last year, I'd say that's pretty decent.

Rocklive99
12-14-2004, 01:06 AM
Also, earlier on ESPNEWS, Steve Phillips thought that this money freed up was so KW can get in the JD Drew or Beltran bidding wars. It's all so obvious now, he is going to sign JD Drew, then trade Podsednik and Konerko to the A's for Hudson, and we will own the new Big 3 of the AL

southsider17
12-14-2004, 10:49 AM
I'm not so sure the freed up money should go towards a $6+ mil FA starter.

The Sox have greatly improved a rotation (over opening day 2004) that wasn't so great to begin with and have also built a very deep and talented bullpen. In fact, the bullpen may be too deep now with the addition of Viscaino. Most on here agree that Garland would be an excellent #5 starter (12 wins from a fifth starter? :thumbsup: ). I think he would be a servicable 4th starter as well.

The goals of any Sox fan for this team is to not only make the playoffs but also do something in them. For the most part, your chances of getting to the playoffs are more dependent on offensive production than pitching and defense. Now before everyone jumps on me for that statement, pitching and defense still have to be at a level where they aren't a liability.

Now in the playoffs those rolls are somewhat reversed. Pitching becomes paramount, and defensive liabilities become magnified but not to the extent that it outweighs offensive production. Offensively, due to the nature of short series, you need to be able to manufacture runs to cover any lapses of power. That's where the 2000 team failed miserably.

Here's my big if:

If the Sox can get enough out of the 5th spot from, say, Hermanson (and how can anyone argue that he's not better than any 5th starter we had last year), then if we get to the playoffs we can go with a 3 or 4 man rotation. The bullpen becomes crowded again with the 5th starter and we have the depth to cover for a meltdown by one of the starters (like Contreras or Garland).

Following that plan, that would allow us to spend the Lee $aving$ on more offense, preferably a high OBP type. Our most glaring positional weakness is catcher, IMO. Kendall would have been perfect. I don't think Pierczinski is a good idea, only because he's an ass. Unless KW can get someone via trade (and not create another hole - not likely) I think someone like Polanco or a replacement for Crede is the best route. I don't know who we could get to replace Crede but I don't believe the "correct his swing flaw" arguments. He needs to be replaced.

At worst we should sign a high level utility infielder (who can at least play 3rd and 2nd). I miss Tony G. right now!

I like our pitching right now though if we could get a top of the line #1 or #2 that would be great. There are no more left in the FA market so a trade is the only route for that and that could lead to more holes elsewhere.

I just don't think that Garland as a #5 (meaning we picked up someone better) helps us more than upgrading our offense. The Dodgers (under Dan Evans) hung on to pitching at the expense of offense and lead the league in ERA in 2003 ..... and missed the playoffs.

In our park we should still have a potent offense. We still have enough power to take advantage of this but we have to make sure there are people on base to receive the full benefit of the power we have left.

TheBull19
12-14-2004, 12:40 PM
The Sox have greatly improved a rotation (over opening day 2004) that wasn't so great to begin with and have also built a very deep and talented bullpen. In fact, the bullpen may be too deep now with the addition of Viscaino.
I don't think there is such a thing as 'too deep a bullpen.'

southsider17
12-14-2004, 01:45 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as 'too deep a bullpen.'
LOL!!! I guess it depends on how good your starters are.

I meant it more in terms of salary distribution. Although I haven't checked the number$ so I could be wrong. :dunno:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-14-2004, 01:55 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as 'too deep a bullpen.'
This is true. However the the more accurate expression is "you can never have enough pitching." This is because everytime you add a pitcher you knock the worst pitcher off the staff. Every team needs 10 or so players to cover a season's worth of pitching duty. It's totally unique vs. every other position.

Of course adding bullpen pitchers isn't nearly as effective as adding starting pitchers. Adding a starter upgrades the talent level of your team for every pitcher behind the new starter, and all bullpen talent, too. That's because the #5 pitcher becomes your long reliever, and the long reliever becomes a set up man and so and so forth until the worst pitcher is knocked off the team entirely.

I would say upgrading the bullpen is the cheap, timid, and stupid way to upgrade the pitching staff, but some people here have a congenital problem with the truth as it is applied to the Chicago White Sox baseball franchise.
:cool:

southsider17
12-14-2004, 02:19 PM
..... cheap, timid, and stupid .....
This phrase seems to be getting alot of use lately.

hold2dibber
12-14-2004, 02:20 PM
I'm not so sure the freed up money should go towards a $6+ mil FA starter.

The Sox have greatly improved a rotation (over opening day 2004) that wasn't so great to begin with and have also built a very deep and talented bullpen. In fact, the bullpen may be too deep now with the addition of Viscaino. Most on here agree that Garland would be an excellent #5 starter (12 wins from a fifth starter? :thumbsup: ). I think he would be a servicable 4th starter as well.
Well, that argument assumes (1) that Hermanson would be an adequate no. 5; and (2) more importantly, that Contreras is an adquate no. 3. I am not at all confident in (1) and also note that the bullpen would be weakend if Hermanson is in the rotation. And I'm sure as hell not sold on no. (2) - Contreras had a 5.50 ERA last year! I understand that he has a lot of talent and may blossom away from the New York media glare, but you have to be nuts if you're counting on him to be your no. 3. They desparately need another starter.

The need for more offense is important too. As others have noted, there are a lot of holes and question marks in the line-up right now (e.g., are Uribe and Rowand one year wonders? Can Dye, Everett and Frank stay healthy? Can Harris, Davis and Crede get over the hump and become at least league average offensive performers?).

If I'm KW and assuming that he can use the $6.5 million he saved yesterday on payroll, I would try to add: (1) one of the following starting pitchers: Byrd, Sele, Millwood, O. Perez, El Duque or Lima PLUS (2) either Placido Polanco or Miguel Cairo. For example, maybe you can sign Perez for 3 years, $20 million ($5 million, then $7 million, then $8 million) and Cairo for 2 years at $1.5 million each. Or Byrd for 2 years at $3 million/year plus Polanco for 3 years and $15 million ($3.5 million then $5.5 million then $6 million). I'd like to have Clement, but I think the Red Sox will drive up the bidding on him to a level that makes no sense. I think the Sox can get an upgrade to the starting pitching and at 2B for the money they just saved; and if they can do so, the Lee deal will have ultimately improved the roster.

southsider17
12-14-2004, 02:37 PM
....Well, that argument assumes (1) that Hermanson would be an adequate no. 5; and (2) more importantly, that Contreras is an adquate no. 3. .....Here's a post of mine from another (Brace yourself if this is true) thread in "Talking Baseball" re:(1)
The final four's fifth starters:
Red Sox (I don't know which one was the 5th) -Wakefield 12-10, 4.87 ERA



Lowe 14-12, 5.42 ERA





Yankees (ditto) -Leiber 14-8, 4.33 ERA



Loaiza 5-7, 5.70 ERA





Cardinals (Morris was 5th by performance and then Haren stepped in when Carpenter went down) -Morris 15-10, 4.72 ERA



Haren 3-3, 4.50 ERA





Astros (these three were the 5th, in order, as injuries took down others) -Redding 5-7, 5.72 ERA



Hernandez 1-3, 6.43 ERA


Munro 4-7, 5.15 ERA




Now here are Hermanson's stats:Hermanson 6-9, 4.53 (4.31 career)




Cheap, timid and stupid? Cheap, yes, but enough. These four team show that maybe the money is better spent elswhere.I agree that you point (2) is a risk but I think he'll do fine and could possibly be very good.

Lip Man 1
12-14-2004, 05:54 PM
Southsider says: "This phrase seems to be getting alot of use lately."

And with VERY GOOD reason.

Lip