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View Full Version : OFFICIAL! CLee to Brewers for Podsednik, Vizcaino, & PTBNL


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ondafarm
12-13-2004, 05:52 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041213&content_id=922102&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp

Carlos Lee is gone!!!

DaveIsHere
12-13-2004, 05:53 PM
:hawk

"you can put it on the board"

Whitesoxtom
12-13-2004, 05:58 PM
Wow, a leadoff hitter with an .OBP of .313. Williams is a joke. This trade sucks.

soxwon
12-13-2004, 05:59 PM
first thoughts i dont like it!!!

what will vizcaino do be a starter? or reliever?

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 05:59 PM
Carlos Lee

for center fielder Scott Podsednik, right-hander Luis Vizcaino and a player to be named later


here are their individual pages
CLee http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6161/

Podsednik http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6489/

Vizcaino http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6291/

Kogs35
12-13-2004, 06:01 PM
who wants to build www.firekennywilliams.com (http://www.firekennywilliams.com) ?

Randar68
12-13-2004, 06:02 PM
Carlos Lee

for center fielder Scott Podsednik, right-hander Luis Vizcaino and a player to be named later


here are their individual pages
CLee http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6161/

Podsednik http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6489/

Vizcaino http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6291/
I like it if the PTBNL is Ben Sheets, LOL!

This trade blows, but it also frees up 7 million dollars and the Brewers have a pretty decent organization, so let's see who the PTBNL is. Podsednik lead-off for them out of necessity, although 27-year-old rookes don't tend to maintain a significant level of success...

jackbrohamer
12-13-2004, 06:03 PM
I don't want to jump to conclusions, but my first reaction is .....:chunks .

Palehose13
12-13-2004, 06:03 PM
Wow, a leadoff hitter with an .OBP of .313. Williams is a joke. This trade sucks.
I don't think so. You are basing it on his numbers from last year...but hey, since you are 70 stolen bases with .313 OBP. That gets some attention.

In summary, for CLee the Sox are getting a leadoff hitter who can steal bases, a good relief pitcher, PTBNL, AND has money to spend on a SP (and reports are that they will).

I love CLee, but if trading him fills 3, maybe 4 holes...good trade.

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 06:03 PM
who wants to build www.firekennywilliams.com (http://www.firekennywilliams.com) ?
How about www.takeashotatJR.net instead?

ChiSoxRowand
12-13-2004, 06:06 PM
I like this trade. Podsednik stole 70 bases last year and Vizcaino is a good setup guy. The White Sox have been a team that just waits for the 3 run homer the last few years and we have not won jack. We have somebody that can steal bases, altough his average was down last year. And our bullpen will be stacked with the additions of Vizcaino and Hermanson. We also save 6 mil and we can add somebody else.

cbrownson13
12-13-2004, 06:08 PM
I like this trade, especially since it opens up money for a free agent. Podsednik, Vizcaino, PTBNL, and free agent (Clement, Perez, Polanco) and we give up Carlos.


On a side note, rotoworld.com says that Podsednik will play LF with Rowand staying in CF.

rdivaldi
12-13-2004, 06:08 PM
Wow, a leadoff hitter with an .OBP of .313. Williams is a joke. This trade sucks.
Yeah, if you use selective stats from one year. Gimme a break. We're slightly on the short end of the stick on this trade, but let's not be dishonest about it.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 06:08 PM
I like this trade alot right now. If Scotty Po can boost his average only 20 points I LOVE this trade. Podsednik is one of the biggest weapons in baseball as a leadoff hitter. He's almost automatic to get to 2nd at any given he gets on base. Actually I love this trade now. We now have a solid leadoff guy and a solid arm out of the pen. KW did great work on this one, regardless of what you all think right now.

longshot7
12-13-2004, 06:09 PM
I agree. This blows major chunks.

Brian26
12-13-2004, 06:09 PM
This could go down as one of the worst trades the Sox have ever made.

SpartanSoxFan
12-13-2004, 06:09 PM
How many more relievers is KW going to get??? Our relief order is now longer than the line at the $4 all-you-can eat Vegas Buffet. :mad:

compy75
12-13-2004, 06:10 PM
I'll second the www.firekenwilliams.com (http://www.firekenwilliams.com). Why does this management fail to understand the nature of a leadoff hitter is not simply to be speedy??? See I was all for dealing Lee. It comes down to who is the real Scott Posednick?The .379 or the .314 OBP guy? Well, he had the same amount of the walks nearly the last 2 years. Here's hoping he gets on at least .350...

What bothers me is that Lee has been consistent for 5 years, SP has had one good year. Gotta believe KW jumped the gun a bit and I am not one of those who inflate Sox players' values.

-Joe

soxwon
12-13-2004, 06:11 PM
1 posednick

2 rowand

3 thomas

4 konerko

5 dye

6 uribe

7 crede

8 harris

9 b.davis

hows that look?

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 06:11 PM
My God... there had better be a free agent SP signing about to be announced. All we have to show for this trade (so far) is an extra $5-6 million in Reinsdorf's bank account.
:mad:

:reinsy
"What's wrong with that? I earned it."

Palehose13
12-13-2004, 06:12 PM
I like this trade alot right now. If Scotty Po can boost his average only 20 points I LOVE this trade. Podsednik is one of the biggest weapons in baseball as a leadoff hitter. He's almost automatic to get to 2nd at any given he gets on base. Actually I love this trade now. We now have a solid leadoff guy and a solid arm out of the pen. KW did great work on this one, regardless of what you all think right now.
Yep. I am guessing most of these people haven't seen Scotty P. play.

SpartanSoxFan
12-13-2004, 06:13 PM
1 posednick

2 rowand

3 thomas

4 konerko

5 dye

6 uribe

7 crede

8 harris

9 b.davis

hows that look?
:ohno
:chunks

fquaye149
12-13-2004, 06:14 PM
This could go down as one of the worst trades the Sox have ever made.
even if we get no pitcher/position player with the free agent money, vizcaino is a non-factor in the bullpen, and podsednick does not improve at all over last year now that he has ANY lineup protection...it still would not be that lopsided.

70 stolen bases is enough to lick the wounds of a .313 OBP in the OPS department (if you change 70 singles to 70 doubles)....and it gives us someone who ACTUALLY knows how to bunt.

But of course, you've already made up your mind, so why am i bothering. it's the worst trade ever. Ernie Podsednik for Lou Lee.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 06:14 PM
The funny thing is that I made almost the exact same trade in my MLB 2004 game. Minus Vizcaino

fquaye149
12-13-2004, 06:15 PM
Yep. I am guessing most of these people haven't seen Scotty P. play.

exactly. I've seen him play time and time again and he is much better than those numbers.

Do any of you know who hit behind him in the 2 spot in the batting order?....

I'll give you a hint: JUNIOR SPIVEY and CRAIG COUNSELL.


i'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by explaining what this would mean to most people's stats.

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 06:16 PM
Yep. I am guessing most of these people haven't seen Scotty P. play.
I like it if the money saved is spent on another starter.

I don't hate it without that happening either, because honestly, this team needed a shakeup. I don't know if this is the shakeup it needed, because I am one of those people who has never seen Pod play.

I'm willing to give him a chance and if KW does get another starter, I think the Sox will be a better team than at any time in several years.

Jurr
12-13-2004, 06:17 PM
To alleviate some of the tension by some people, we've been talking on another thread (that is EXTREMELY LOOONGGGG) this trade wouldn't be the best thing for us if there wasn't something else coming. That money was freed up for a reason. If we end up getting another solid starter, then we get to keep Garland as a number 5 guy (perfect fit), we have our bullpen put together, and we have a guy that, despite hitting for a low avg. in his sophomore season, is a solid player. He stole a ton of bases, can draw a walk, and will probably follow that trend of players who move from NL to AL (higher numbers all around.) He's better defensively than Lee, so we now have a stellar defensive outfield. A lot of people griped about the 3 station team and how bad they thought it was, so we're seeing that leaving this team. The masher era is over in Chicago. Good riddance. I'd rather see something new happen and fail than the same old story every year.

We've still got some pop in our offense. Uribe's had a full year of AL experience under his belt, and should be better. Rowand's proving to be a very good player. Dye and Everett, if they remain healthy, could honestly give us HUGE numbers at the Cell. I would still like to see the Sox pick up a second baseman, and I'm sure we'll see that move made. It has to be made. If we get some kind of serviceable guy at second, we're in good shape. Crede will get another year, and I'm not upset about that at all. If he struggles at the plate, well there's your mid season move right there. Get someone in there who can hit.

But, all in all, we're seeing a team that will rely less on the three run homer and more on manufacturing runs. We'll see a team that can actually compete in Minnesota and Oakland, where the 3-1 games become the norm. All of this is a good thing.

Would you rather see Maggs, Lee, Konerko, Thomas, and Valentin smoke 30 homers a piece and lead us to another second place finish??
The worst thing that could happen to this team is nothing. We need a roll of the dice and a change of philosophy. Here we go.

hold2dibber
12-13-2004, 06:18 PM
1 posednick

2 rowand

3 thomas

4 konerko

5 dye

6 uribe

7 crede

8 harris

9 b.davis

hows that look?
That's if/when Thomas comes back. Until that happens, substitute Everett for Frank. All I'm saying is Uribe better not have been a one year fluke and Crede better step it up big time, or the offense is going to be substantially worse than it was previously. If by the grace of God Ginter is the PTBNL (which seems pretty unlikely), I'd be MUCH more comfortable (he'd hit 25 HRs as a starter at the Cell, making up for much of the pop lost with Lee's departure).

SpartanSoxFan
12-13-2004, 06:18 PM
But that's just the thing!!!! Is 5-6 Million enough to get a Matt Clement? How do we even know that's what KW is trying to do???

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 06:19 PM
I don't hate it without that happening either, because honestly, this team needed a shakeup.
Exactly......this team needs to start shying away from the "bomber" mentality. Last year we had 6 guys that were the exact same type of player(Lee, Konerko, Thomas, Everett, Valentin, Crede) Time to mix it up a bit.....Give teams something else to worry about.

hold2dibber
12-13-2004, 06:21 PM
But that's just the thing!!!! Is 5-6 Million enough to get a Matt Clement? How do we even know that's what KW is trying to do???
Probably not, but there was a great deal of speculation that the Sox still had another $2-3 million to spend before this deal. If that's true, they now have be $7 or $8 million, which probably will be enough to get Clement (or, alternatively, to get Odalis Perez plus Miguel Cairo, or something like that).

FJA
12-13-2004, 06:22 PM
This could go down as one of the worst trades the Sox have ever made.
A) We don't know who the PTBNL is, and the Brewers have a pretty good organization
B) We don't know what Scott Podsednik we're getting, but if it's the 2003 Podsednik, we won on this trade big time.
C) This trade is clearly set up to bring in an SP (starting pitcher, not Scott Podsednik), and with $6 million, we might be able to get ourselves a pretty good one

By my count, when all is said and done, that's one player for four ... we only know two. Waaayyyy too early to judge; this could end up being one of the best trades the Sox have ever made.

Let's not forget the way Carlos handled himself on the basepads. Podsednik is such an upgrade there, it's not even funny.

I'm tenantively happy with this trade.

cbrownson13
12-13-2004, 06:22 PM
Would you rather see Maggs, Lee, Konerko, Thomas, and Valentin smoke 30 homers a piece and lead us to another second place finish??
The worst thing that could happen to this team is nothing.
EXACTLY. The worst thing that could happen is we don't win the division. Something we haven't done in the past few years anyways. THis is not a bad trade, especially since we will bring in someone else.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 06:24 PM
EXACTLY. The worst thing that could happen is we don't win the division. Something we haven't done in the past few years anyways. THis is not a bad trade, especially since we will bring in someone else.
You've got that one bass ackwards. It's a bad trade UNTIL we bring in someone else. It hasn't happened yet...

soxwon
12-13-2004, 06:24 PM
But that's just the thing!!!! Is 5-6 Million enough to get a Matt Clement? How do we even know that's what KW is trying to do???
7 mil gets us jaret wright!!!

StockdaleForVeep
12-13-2004, 06:24 PM
Well, KW did state he was changing this team into a doppleganger of the Marlins, speed and small ball...so perhaps this will work...or at this rate, since Marlins will need a new park and theyve already played here, maybe JR can buy the marlins and move em here?

Only good concept of this trade is that we can hear and see Lee hit more bombs off cub pitching regularly.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-13-2004, 06:26 PM
I'll love the trade if the Sox sign a good SP with the money saved. Scott Podsednik's 70 SB is nothing to look over. 70 SB is great production in today's game where not a lot of players know how to utilize their speed(cough willie harris cough) and with the avg scott had last year, it'll be hard for him not to improve the avg and obp columns. Great move kenny if you can get UJ to cough up a few extra million to sign a pitcher.

jackbrohamer
12-13-2004, 06:26 PM
Would you rather see Maggs, Lee, Konerko, Thomas, and Valentin smoke 30 homers a piece and lead us to another second place finish??
I'd prefer keeping them and fixing positions where they were weak like adding a 5th starter, 2B and 3B. You know, like the teams that try to be competitive do.

Mickster
12-13-2004, 06:28 PM
You've got that one bass ackwards. It's a bad trade UNTIL we bring in someone else. It hasn't happened yet...Agreed. If anyone thinks that CLee for Podsednik & Vizcaino, straight-up, with no other moves made this off-season is a fair deal, they are nutz!!!!!

If KW, however, brings in a #3 starter (I hate it when people say #4 starter, automatically placing Contreras as out #3) then the deal looks much better. Not awesome, just better..... Just my honest opinion.

Jurr
12-13-2004, 06:32 PM
I'd prefer keeping them and fixing positions where they were weak like adding a 5th starter, 2B and 3B. You know, like the teams that try to be competitive do.
See, there's this thing called stats you pay for. Homers are a stat you pay a lot of money for. With a guy that hits a ton of homers, you end up paying a big amount of money for him, where you can get a guy that puts up less homers but helps you elsewhere, including salary. By moving these guys, you are able to afford more players to help fill holes, though you sacrifice a little pop offensively. If you were going to tell me that the Sox were trading Lee to get a leadoff hitter, a bona fide set up guy, and freed up money to get a 3 or 4 starter, I'd be ecstatic!!!!!!! And that, my friend, is exactly what's going to happen.

A.T. Money
12-13-2004, 06:34 PM
All I know is that I saw Podsednik play all those games vs. the Flubs, and he was a huge pest. This could be a damn good trade, especially if he can get on base a lot.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 06:35 PM
Agreed. If anyone thinks that CLee for Podsednik & Vizcaino, straight-up, with no other moves made this off-season is a fair deal, they are nutz!!!!!


It is a fair deal. We gave the Brewers what they need in some consistent power and the Brewers gave us what we need in an ability to get on base and hold runners. It works out for both teams as it should. Some people are under the perception that trades should be blatantly lopsided in favor of the Sox. I wouldn't ever be surprised to hear see a thread suggesting "Joe Crede for Adrian Beltre so long as the Dodgers eat up some of that salary". That hasn't happened yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Again....this is a fair trade and a good trade for both teams.

cbrownson13
12-13-2004, 06:38 PM
You've got that one bass ackwards. It's a bad trade UNTIL we bring in someone else. It hasn't happened yet...
Sorry, I'm thinking optimisticly. I know that's not allowed on this board or with this team.

MHOUSE
12-13-2004, 06:38 PM
I've seen Podsednik play a number of times up at Miller Park and he is awesome on the basepaths. Anytime he gets to first base is as good as a double. He'll become an instant fan favorite at the Cell, guaranteed. Hopefully he plays left field because Rowand is a better CF in my opinion.

Glad we added Dye to help ease the pain of losing Maggs and Podsednik could possibly cover for Carlos' offense, but in a different way. Vizcaino was a decent set-up for Kolb, but he's nothing great. I hope the PTBNL is one of their better prospects or Ginter (who could play 2nd everyday). Bring in a SP with the $$ saved and I like this deal.

Right now, the Brewers have the upper hand because they sold Podsednik at high value and they have a CF prospect ready to go (something with a K?). Carlos will do very well at Miller Park and give them some pop besides Jenkins.

Palehose13
12-13-2004, 06:39 PM
LOL...had to share. Just talked to a Brewer fan friend of mine about this trade (and I assume I will be doing a lot of that the next few days) and she wents nuts that they traded "Scotty Po". I had to sell her on CLee. :wink:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 06:40 PM
Sorry, I'm thinking optimisticly. I know that's not allowed on this board or with this team.
No, we just don't allow false statements to go unchallenged around here. Where do you normally hang out? Maybe you should go back.

MIgrenade
12-13-2004, 06:44 PM
I'm happy I don't have to watch "Willie run" cuz unlike Hawk, I hate it.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 06:44 PM
Yeah, if you use selective stats from one year. Gimme a break. We're slightly on the short end of the stick on this trade, but let's not be dishonest about it.
rd-What do you think about the trade...I enjoy reading your opinions...

hose
12-13-2004, 06:45 PM
I like it if the money saved is spent on another starter.

I don't hate it without that happening either, because honestly, this team needed a shakeup. I don't know if this is the shakeup it needed, because I am one of those people who has never seen Pod play.

I'm willing to give him a chance and if KW does get another starter, I think the Sox will be a better team than at any time in several years.
Voodoo pretty much sums up how I feel about the move.

The Sox still have to address starting pitcher, second base, and the catching situation.

Looks like the bullpen by committee is complete with the addition of Vizcaino.

It's tough seeing my favorites like Maggs,Jose, and now Carlos leave.:(:

cbrownson13
12-13-2004, 06:47 PM
No, we just don't allow false statements to go unchallenged around here. Where do you normally hang out? Maybe you should go back.
I normally hang out here.

LongLiveFisk
12-13-2004, 06:48 PM
LOL...had to share. Just talked to a Brewer fan friend of mine about this trade (and I assume I will be doing a lot of that the next few days) and she wents nuts that they traded "Scotty Po". I had to sell her on CLee. :wink:
Yes, I heard that the women up there found him to be major "eye candy" LOL.

Hey, that might be good for all you guys if more women start showing up because of him! :tongue:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 06:48 PM
I normally hang out here.
Glad to hear it. Be fruitful and multiply.
:cool:

HomeFish
12-13-2004, 06:49 PM
As somebody who went to a Brewer game last year, I can tell you that they are very high on Podsednik (I in fact went on Scott Podsednik bobblehead night) and the comment about female Brewer fans is spot-on.

rdivaldi
12-13-2004, 06:51 PM
rd-What do you think about the trade...I enjoy reading your opinions...
Well, first thanks for the compliment.

I am only lukewarm on the trade. Why do I have a feeling that we could have gotten a little more for CLee, but I guess that will depend on the PTBNL.

I really, really like Vizcaino. Saw him pitch a couple of times in person at Miller Park and was impressed by his "stuff". I guess he hangs sliders that get nailed for homers on occaision, but it can be nasty when on. Throws a plus fastball as well.

Pods worries me though. I really hope he can shake off last year's bad season and get back to the form he displayed in 2003 when his swing seemed to be a bit shorter and compact. A lot of people seem to think that he was trying to hit dingers last year and developed a bit of an uppercut.

If we use the money we saved to sign a legitimate starting pitcher, then I'll be satisfied. I'm also jonesing for us to sign a left handed reliever as well, but I guess that just isn't in the cards. I would love to see Steve Kline in a Sox uni....

soxwon
12-13-2004, 06:57 PM
All I know is that I saw Podsednik play all those games vs. the Flubs, and he was a huge pest. This could be a damn good trade, especially if he can get on base a lot.
and carlos lee will face the cubs 18 times also, he EATS the Cubs up.

Palehose13
12-13-2004, 06:58 PM
As somebody who went to a Brewer game last year, I can tell you that they are very high on Podsednik (I in fact went on Scott Podsednik bobblehead night) and the comment about female Brewer fans is spot-on.
Yep. Even the "alternative life-style women" up here think he's a fine looking ball player.

However, I just talked to some male Brewer fans. They aren't happy.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 07:02 PM
Yep. Even the "alternative life-style women" up here think he's a fine looking ball player.

However, I just talked to some male Brewer fans. They aren't happy.
Good sign. I saw Podsednik at the Urinal and he looked like freakin Carl Lewis out there running the bases...

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 07:02 PM
However, I just talked to some male Brewer fans. They aren't happy.
Oh, come on, PH13. These guys haven't a clue what they're talking about. You're trying to tell me any hetero males in Milwaukee knows the first thing about baseball? They're too busy ejaculating all over themselves about the Packers return from the dead.

You can tell them I said that, too.
:gulp:

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:03 PM
The Brewers fan site (http://brewerfan.net) seems split on the issue. Some think that Scotty Po is already washed up and welcome Carlos' power, but others think that losing a guy with 70sb's and a pretty decent arm in relief is a little too much to handle.

It's pretty much the same as over here.

jackbrohamer
12-13-2004, 07:06 PM
"Scotty Po"?? Jeebus

margiss
12-13-2004, 07:06 PM
When you look at Pods' stats you need to put in perspective the Brewers lineup. I saw 5 games at Miller last year and the lineup had no charge or depth . . . that's why they need Lee.


Look back to Pods' big year in 2003 and add Sexson and some others in the lineup and see the results. With some other talent around him, expect Pods to rebound. Believe it or not, we still have a solid core on O.

Palehose13
12-13-2004, 07:06 PM
Oh, come on, PH13. These guys haven't a clue what they're talking about. You're trying to tell me any hetero males in Milwaukee knows the first thing about baseball? They're too busy ejaculating all over themselves about the Packers return from the dead.

You can tell them I said that, too.
:gulp:
LOL...you're right, but this dampered their spirits a bit...you know since that amazing win against the powerful Lions.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 07:07 PM
To the scouts-

How hard will it be for Podsednik to revert back to his 03 form if his real problem last year was swinging for the fences? Are we probably going to see something in-between '03-'04?

Baines2Raines
12-13-2004, 07:11 PM
Podsednik is dating Fox Sports' Lisa Dergan who was also a Playboy centerfold. So we'll see a hot blonde at some games.

GiveMeSox
12-13-2004, 07:11 PM
I like this trade. Podsednik stole 70 bases last year and Vizcaino is a good setup guy. The White Sox have been a team that just waits for the 3 run homer the last few years and we have not won jack. We have somebody that can steal bases, altough his average was down last year. And our bullpen will be stacked with the additions of Vizcaino and Hermanson. We also save 6 mil and we can add somebody else.
We might save enough $$ to sign another starter which would be great. But C Lee wasn't the all or nothing 3 run homer guy. That is Paulie. Remember C Lee hada 28 game hit streak and batter .305 last year. Paulie is slow and all or nothing with his .272 average. If anyone should have been traded it should have been Paulie and not C Lee. Carlos is Fast, made no errors, was a great clubhouse guy, etc. I would like this trade muich better if it was Konerko who goes, he doesn't fit our new on base, high avg, speed guy modo. If it was Konerko for Overbay, Viscaino, and PTBNL i would have loved it. And it still would have saved us the cash.

longshot7
12-13-2004, 07:12 PM
1 posednick

2 rowand

3 thomas

4 konerko

5 dye

6 uribe

7 crede

8 harris

9 b.davis

hows that look?
god stinkin' awful. look at the bottom of that lineup. zip. zilch. nada. no pop.

soxwon
12-13-2004, 07:12 PM
heres our new LF this kid can play defense.Milwaukee Brewers : Player Information (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=325392)

check out posednicks catches

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:13 PM
I can't think of a better post for someone to have as their first than talking about hot blondes at Comiskey. Welcome aboard

santo=dorf
12-13-2004, 07:14 PM
Didn't know that.

:threadrules:

ilsox7
12-13-2004, 07:14 PM
I can't think of a better post for someone to have as their first than talking about hot blondes at Comiskey. Welcome aboard
My thoughts exactly! At least someone is lookign at this trade from the proper perspective!

(PS: how bout that win over the Badgers MU?)

JRIG
12-13-2004, 07:16 PM
This trade, in and of itself, is not very good. Not good at all.

But KW obviously has some kind of a plan wit the extra $$. And, even as one of KW's harshest critcs, I can't castigate him quite yet.

Not getting Ginter in the deal is a major blow, unless he's the PTBNL.

Podsednik is vastly overrated because of the stolen bases. The Sox seem unable to grasp the concept that speed (Podsednik, Harris) does not make a leadoff man.

We've overstocking bullpen arms, one of the most unpredictable assets in baseball.

A lineup of Podsednik, Rowand, Dye, Konerko, Everett, Uribe, Crede, Harris, and Davis makes me vomit.

I'm very depressed at the moment and not optimistic about how those extra dollarts will be spent. Now...bringing in Clement and Polanco would change my mind.

munchman33
12-13-2004, 07:16 PM
The Brewers fan site (http://brewerfan.net/) seems split on the issue. Some think that Scotty Po is already washed up and welcome Carlos' power, but others think that losing a guy with 70sb's and a pretty decent arm in relief is a little too much to handle.

It's pretty much the same as over here.
That's how you know the trade is pretty even. Both sides think they gave up too much.

StillMissOzzie
12-13-2004, 07:18 PM
Yep. I am guessing most of these people haven't seen Scotty P. play.
Actually, I have. Podsednik used to be playing out in the western suburbs on the Kane County Cougars a few years ago. I'll have to dredge up one of his KCC cards. An older "rookie", but I thought he had a chance.

SMO
:gulp:

chisoxmike
12-13-2004, 07:19 PM
This is how I come back from work!!!!!!!???????? ***? Why didn't Konerko go? I thought we all agreed it was going to be Konerko leaving, not Lee. This is some major BS!

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:20 PM
Podsednik is vastly overrated because of the stolen bases. The Sox seem unable to grasp the concept that speed (Podsednik, Harris) does not make a leadoff man.


Yeah, we already have too many guys with 70sb's/year on this team. You can't compare Harris to Podsednik because while both have the speed only one of them chooses to use it.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:22 PM
My thoughts exactly! At least someone is lookign at this trade from the proper perspective!

(PS: how bout that win over the Badgers MU?)

It was a great win....bring on Arizona

jake27
12-13-2004, 07:22 PM
im wondering if anyone knows of a brewers fan site (something like this site). i want to see what brewers fans think about the trade.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 07:22 PM
Yeah, we already have too many guys with 70sb's/year on this team. You can't compare Harris to Podsednik because while both have the speed only one of them chooses to use it.
That is a great point.

Let's not forget that Pod had no protection in the order and tried too often last year to swing for the fences.

ilsox7
12-13-2004, 07:23 PM
It was a great win....bring on Arizona
The MU people I know all went to some bar dontown...claimed it was the only place in the city showing the game. They were happy happy joy joy Saturday night.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:24 PM
Here ya go. (http://brewerfan.net)They're pretty evenly split so far

StillMissOzzie
12-13-2004, 07:24 PM
Podsednik is dating Fox Sports' Lisa Dergan who was also a Playboy centerfold. So we'll see a hot blonde at some games.
Welcome to WSI! Thanks for the hot tip, too!

SMO

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 07:25 PM
You can't compare Harris to Podsednik because while both have the speed only one of them chooses to use it.
Really? I'm guessing Harris will have competition for fastest Sox running down to first base, turning left, and zipping back to the dugout.

Speed ain't worth **** unless you're on base. I'll take one of Art Howe's slow-footed/high OBP softball players on the early-00 A's over somebody who can't get on base.

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 07:25 PM
Podsednik is dating Fox Sports' Lisa Dergan who was also a Playboy centerfold. So we'll see a hot blonde at some games.
This makes it a pretty good trade by itself (herself.)

maurice
12-13-2004, 07:29 PM
god stinkin' awful. look at the bottom of that lineup. zip. zilch. nada. no pop.
I'm not sure how much pop you expect to get from the bottom of your lineup, especially C. However, the current (hopefully incomplete) roster should be able to post 200+ HR easy, playing half their games at Coors East.

My bigger concern is whether anybody will be on base. Very few of those guys are lead-pipe cinches to post decent OBPs. Podsednik, Rowand, and (to a lesser extent) Uribe have one good year each. Crede and Harris have shown flashes at times but still haven't put together a full season. Konerko's coming off of a great year, but his previous season was a disaster. Thomas, Everett, and (to a lesser extent) Dye need to show that they can stay healthy and productive.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:30 PM
Really? I'm guessing Harris will have competition for fastest Sox running down to first base, turning left, and zipping back to the dugout.

Speed ain't worth **** unless you're on base. I'll take one of Art Howe's slow-footed/high OBP softball players on the early-00 A's over somebody who can't get on base.

My guesstimate is that Podsednik will have a year somewhere between 2003 and 2004. (.270-.275BA and ability to draw walks) I love that paired with his speed and DESIRE to steal bases....something Harris doesn't have.

minastirith67
12-13-2004, 07:31 PM
Really? I'm guessing Harris will have competition for fastest Sox running down to first base, turning left, and zipping back to the dugout.

:roflmao:

Until we get a SP and hopefully a catcher, this trade blows. It looks like KW failed again. Who knows, maybe after this season he'll be out of a job.

Paulwny
12-13-2004, 07:33 PM
My God... there had better be a free agent SP signing about to be announced. All we have to show for this trade (so far) is an extra $5-6 million in Reinsdorf's bank account.
:mad:

:reinsy
"What's wrong with that? I earned it."
C'mon PHG, you gotta feel sorry for the man he's been tossing and turning the last few weeks, unable to sleep thinking the payroll may be >$70 mil.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 07:33 PM
They're pretty evenly split so far
Are you on drugs?

They're peeing themselves with joy over this deal.

:kukoo:

Baines2Raines
12-13-2004, 07:34 PM
This makes it a pretty good trade by itself (herself.)
Lisa Dergan has her own website. Do a google search for the site. I don't want to post a link to a site with pictures of nude women. There might be some kids who read this. :smile:

Dergan has nice dimples, among other umm assets.

JRIG
12-13-2004, 07:35 PM
The more I think about this trade...the more I want to throw up.

Only Kenny Williams could turn one of our biggest bargaining chips (Carlos Lee) into Scott ****ing Podsednik. He's an older, less productive player coming off a horrible season and with one good (fluke?) season under his belt.

White Sox Baseball: Just Relax. The procedure will be over soon enough.

akingamongstmen
12-13-2004, 07:36 PM
Really? I'm guessing Harris will have competition for fastest Sox running down to first base, turning left, and zipping back to the dugout.

Speed ain't worth **** unless you're on base. I'll take one of Art Howe's slow-footed/high OBP softball players on the early-00 A's over somebody who can't get on base.
I know that he had an off year last season, but you're forgetting that he knows how to draw walks. Also, he had absolutely no protection in that Brewers lineup. More importantly, when he does get on base, he makes things happen. We desperately needed somebody to do that for us. I've heard that he's an extremely intelligent baserunner, so that could be an added bonus for the rest of the team. Maybe he can teach Willie a thing or two about stealing bases.

ilsox7
12-13-2004, 07:37 PM
The more I think about this trade...the more I want to throw up.

Only Kenny Williams could turn one of our biggest bargaining chips (Carlos Lee) into Scott ****ing Podsednik. He's an older, less productive player coming off a horrible season and with one good (fluke?) season under his belt.

White Sox Baseball: Just Relax. The procedure will be over soon enough.
Dude. Patience. Wait til we hopefully spend the money saved. It may make the trade worth it. Til then drink beer!

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:37 PM
The more I think about this trade...the more I want to throw up.

Only Kenny Williams could turn one of our biggest bargaining chips (Carlos Lee) into Scott ****ing Podsednik. He's an older, less productive player coming off a horrible season and with one good (fluke?) season under his belt.

White Sox Baseball: Just Relax. The procedure will be over soon enough.

I think by the end of May you'll be singing a different tune

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 07:38 PM
My guesstimate is that Podsednik will have a year somewhere between 2003 and 2004. (.270-.275BA and ability to draw walks) I love that paired with his speed and DESIRE to steal bases....something Harris doesn't have.
I agree on Podsednik's BA, possibly toward the higher end. I think having one great basestealer around, and having Tim Raines coaching will either get Willie running and hitting between 270 and 300 like I know he can (saw him at AA and AA) or else will get Willie traded for the proverbial bag of balls.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 07:39 PM
The more I think about this trade...the more I want to throw up.

Only Kenny Williams could turn one of our biggest bargaining chips (Carlos Lee) into Scott ****ing Podsednik. He's an older, less productive player coming off a horrible season and with one good (fluke?) season under his belt.

White Sox Baseball: Just Relax. The procedure will be over soon enough.
Why is the good year the fluke and the bad year the "standard"?

If you turn Carlos Lee in Podsednik+Odalis Perez+Luis Vizacino+PTBNL, IMO that has to be considered at last even.

If Podsednik improves his OBP to be anywhere close to 2003, this becomes an AWESOME trade.

Now if we don't get a pitcher of the caliber of Odalis or Clement, then I'll agree that it's a bad trade - but I don't think KW makes the deal unless he's feeling fairly confident about what he can get for his $$$, and I certainly don't think he's off looking for JR unless he needs to get approval to up the payroll a bit, which means an FA signing.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:40 PM
or else will get Willie traded for the proverbial bag of balls.
The way Willie's going we may have to send him and cash considerations to get that bag of balls.

California Sox
12-13-2004, 07:41 PM
...in the head. I'm going to go out on a limb and say THIS IS THE WORST TRADE KW HAS EVER MADE!!!!!!!!!!!! And he's got a lot to choose from. It's like trading for Joe Chaboneau. Nine years in the minors, sneaks up on the NL in 2003, blows chunks in 2004, is traded for a guy who can hit .300 30 100 AND is younger?! Oh, my ****ing balls! The comp for Scott Podsednick in LF is Roger frickin' Cedeno. Vizcaino is not healthy. The PTBNL has to be J.J. Hardy or somebody for this to make any sense at all. Two years from now I predict Podesednick will not even be in the majors. This trade is a tragedy. :angry:

Even if Podesednick can steal some bases, who cares? It's the Cell. The other team will be hitting homers, if we unilaterally disarm, we're going to lose a lot of games 7-2. :whiner:

Why not just trade CLee to the Mariners for Garcia? At least then we'd still have Reed, who's a much much better player than Podsednick. Excuse me, I'm going to be sick now.

I might have to be like that family in Indy and auction my fandom off, because I do not want to watch the horror that Kenny hath wrought.

Man Soo Lee
12-13-2004, 07:44 PM
Why is the good year the fluke and the bad year the "standard"?
His minor league stats (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/player_bio.asp?player_id=2749&hubName=MIL). In his long minor league career, his OBP is roughly .345. He's never had a season like 2003.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 07:44 PM
...
Why not just trade CLee to the Mariners for Garcia? At least then we'd still have Reed, who's a much much better player than Podsednick. Excuse me, I'm going to be sick now.

I KNEW we couldn't go a whole thread without bringing up Jeremy "Babe Ruth" Reed. GET OVER IT ALREADY

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 07:47 PM
His minor league stats (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/player_bio.asp?player_id=2749&hubName=MIL). In his long minor league career, his OBP is roughly .345. He's never had a season like 2003.
Still, a .345 OBP for a guy who steals successfully about 33% of the time he's on base and plays good D is going to make a big impact on this offense. And he comes along with a more solid bullpen and likely a pretty solid rotation instead of Carlos and holes at both ends of the pitching staff.

My point was that I think his OBP will be a lot higher than .313. At .345, this becomes a pretty good trade for the Sox.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 07:51 PM
Still, a .345 OBP for a guy who steals successfully about 33% of the time he's on base and plays good D is going to make a big impact on this offense. And he comes along with a more solid bullpen and likely a pretty solid rotation instead of Carlos and holes at both ends of the pitching staff.

My point was that I think his OBP will be a lot higher than .313. At .345, this becomes a pretty good trade for the Sox.
Exactly.

daveeym
12-13-2004, 07:52 PM
There are only 2 arguments to be made against this trade.

1. JR's just being cheap and if they don't do anything with the money it sucks.
2. The Bafiarocks argument - I don't care I love C. LEE, C. LEE is the greatest, this trade sucks. Bring back the choice and c. lee.

then there is all the upside that has been listed ad nauseum, plus if it hasn't been mentioned cub killa Lee now gets 28 or so games a year against the cubs. This trade may make us competitive (with a lot of praying and a couple more moves) enough to take the central, and probably will just dogg the scrubs all year long as an added bonus.

Miss ya El Caballo, but great trade. God this team is FAST now.

southsider17
12-13-2004, 07:52 PM
:tomatoaward

JRIG
12-13-2004, 07:54 PM
Miss ya El Caballo, but great trade. God this team is FAST now.
Too bad we don't play in the dead-ball era.

JackParkman
12-13-2004, 07:54 PM
Just a thought, but my best guess is that Kenny and Ozzie see this as Preston Wilson for Juan Pierre. That's the best case scenario, anyhow.

California Sox
12-13-2004, 08:00 PM
I KNEW we couldn't go a whole thread without bringing up Jeremy "Babe Ruth" Reed. GET OVER IT ALREADY
Yeah, my bad. But not as bad as trading an .891 OPS for a .677 OPS. Maybe we'll use the $6 mil we saved to sign Roy Hobbs.

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:01 PM
I don't like this trade. The only way it could've been OK is if Ginter were involved (and not because I traded for him in MVP 2004).

Caballo finally solved his problems against lefties, and if you look at the last three months of last season, he could be headed towards huge things. Look at his OPS for the last three months --

July - 1.134
August - .961
September - .934

He seemed to be the only guy in the Sox lineup who didn't get into massive funks, and he was the only guy I trusted in a close & late situation. It seemed like whenever we were on a verge of a rally, Frank popped it up and Paulie GIDP. Pressure never really seemed to bother Carlos, though.

I have the sinking feeling that this trade is going to come back to bite us in the ass. And in a way, I hope Carlos makes KW look bad, because he seemed to be a quality guy to have around.

fquaye149
12-13-2004, 08:01 PM
Too bad we don't play in the dead-ball era.
that's right - i forgot mashing was the way to win....

we hit 241 HR last year...since it's not the dead ball era...does that mean we win?

stl_sox_fan
12-13-2004, 08:04 PM
It looks like the general consensus from the poll is that the outcome of this trade hinges on how the 5.6 Mill drop in payroll is used. Podsednik is a center fielder. Does this mean Rowand moves to Left...or god help us Borchard?

http://pics.forecaster.ca/mlb-player/2038.gif
Yay!!! More PT for me!!!!!!!

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 08:06 PM
It looks like the general consensus from the poll is that the outcome of this trade hinges on how the 5.6 Mill drop in payroll is used. Podsednik is a center fielder. Does this mean Rowand moves to Left...or god help us Borchard?


Reports are Rowand to remain in CF, Scotty Po in LF

JRIG
12-13-2004, 08:07 PM
that's right - i forgot mashing was the way to win....

we hit 241 HR last year...since it's not the dead ball era...does that mean we win?

Well, let's see. Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Astros.

Yep, must be the bunting and stolen bases.

Nellie_Fox
12-13-2004, 08:07 PM
Scotty Po Scotty Po. I might just have to shoot myself.

minastirith67
12-13-2004, 08:07 PM
Who picked option #3? hahahaha

At least they're honest.

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 08:10 PM
The Sox already have the strongest bullpen since 2000. They also have an effective 4 starters - more effective since that same year. One more starter and the Sox might actually post a team ERA around or even under 4.0 next season.

At that point, everything changes. How many runs will they need to score?

800 would be plenty under those circumstances. Yeah, that means Dye and Everett both stay healthy and Frank has a good season, but there are now plenty of options availble to this team offensively that don't include the words Joe Borchard everyday player. If any one of the multitude of experienced outfielders who have at least shown flashes or been a multiple AS goes down there are other players who can pick it up. Who did this team have last year when Maggs got hurt? No one. Then they acquired an injured Carl Everett. Now Everett is on the mend, Dye is playing RF, Rowand is coming off a season with a .930 OPS and that's before we even get to Pod or talk about other options or trades.

Catcher, 2B and 3B are holes to fill, but there is still enough pop in this lineup to score a few runs. Four players still have 30HR potential before we even talk about Crede, Uribe or Rowand.

Yeah, it still depends on Frank being healthy, but since when hasn't it hinged on that concept?

Sign another veteran pitcher, and the Sox will be the ones winning games 2-1 more often than they lose them and won't that be something nice to see.

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:11 PM
Oh, and if Podsednik was brought in to make the AZ-NY-CHI trade work, then that's even worse.

Vazquez has surrendered an average of 30 HR a year the last three years, which is about the same as Garland. The only difference is that he pitched half his games in Yankee Stadium last year. Put him in Comiskey, and Javy probably yields 35-37 long balls.

I'd rather have Garland at $2.3M, even though he drives me nuts. Especially since he's only 25.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 08:14 PM
Oh, and if Podsednik was brought in to make the AZ-NY-CHI trade work, then that's even worse.

Vazquez has surrendered an average of 30 HR a year the last three years, which is about the same as Garland. The only difference is that he pitched half his games in Yankee Stadium last year. Put him in Comiskey, and Javy probably yields 35-37 long balls.

I'd rather have Garland at $2.3M, even though he drives me nuts. Especially since he's only 25.
Where did that come from?

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:17 PM
Lee was mentioned in a package that would ship him and Garland to AZ, the Big Unit to NY, and Vazquez to CHI. That deal isn't dead yet, so there's a chance that Podsednik could be a piece of it.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 08:19 PM
Lee was mentioned in a package that would ship him and Garland to AZ, the Big Unit to NY, and Vazquez to CHI. That deal isn't dead yet, so there's a chance that Podsednik could be a piece of it.I can't see Podsednik being the kicker in any trade involving RJ and the Yankees. I'm pretty sure that deal might be done with. D'Backs want too much

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 08:21 PM
Woohoo !!!! Tomato me today !!!!!!!

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2004, 08:21 PM
I don't like this trade. The only way it could've been OK is if Ginter were involved (and not because I traded for him in MVP 2004).

Caballo finally solved his problems against lefties, and if you look at the last three months of last season, he could be headed towards huge things. Look at his OPS for the last three months --

July - 1.134
August - .961
September - .934

He seemed to be the only guy in the Sox lineup who didn't get into massive funks, and he was the only guy I trusted in a close & late situation. It seemed like whenever we were on a verge of a rally, Frank popped it up and Paulie GIDP. Pressure never really seemed to bother Carlos, though.

I have the sinking feeling that this trade is going to come back to bite us in the ass. And in a way, I hope Carlos makes KW look bad, because he seemed to be a quality guy to have around.Well, let's look at some actual numbers from 2004, shall we?

Full Season

Lee Konerko
BA .305 .277
SLG .525 .535
OPS .891 .894

Men in Scoring position

Lee Konerko
BA .299 .314
SLG .510 .564
OPS .876 .973

So with runners in SP, Lee hit marginally worse than his overall averages, while Konerko hit significantly better. Care to rethink your point?

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:22 PM
Well, the only thing I think Podsednik offers is a cheaper salary.

But then again, AZ is a team that cries poverty in the form of an $80 million debt, and then goes and signs Troy Glaus and Russ Ortiz to about $85 million in contracts. So who knows *** their financial situation is.

Mohoney
12-13-2004, 08:22 PM
The Sox already have the strongest bullpen since 2000.
This is what I'm hanging my hat on as well. Think of it: if we add another starter, this good bullpen won't be overworked, either.

For the 1st time since 2000, we just might out-PITCH the rest of the AL Central.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 08:23 PM
Woohoo !!!! Tomato me today !!!!!!!
You already got your tomato....post #102 or something like that

Wealz
12-13-2004, 08:25 PM
Why did they sign Dye if they were going to deal Lee for an OF'er?

PaleHoseGeorge
12-13-2004, 08:27 PM
Well, let's look at some actual numbers from 2004, shall we?

Full Season

Lee Konerko
BA .305 .277
SLG .525 .535
OPS .891 .894

Men in Scoring position

Lee Konerko
BA .299 .314
SLG .510 .564
OPS .876 .973

So with runners in SP, Lee hit marginally worse than his overall averages, while Konerko hit significantly better. Care to rethink your point? Lee is a leftfielder. Konerko plays first base. Slow-footed firstbasemen need to out-hit leftfielders. Otherwise they're worthless.

In a few years when Lee gets slow you can move him to first base. That's just about the same time Konerko takes his last trip to the vet's office.
:cool:

:walnuts
<wets his doggie crate>

Nellie_Fox
12-13-2004, 08:28 PM
Why did they sign Dye if they were going to deal Lee for an OF'er?Dye was to replace Odonez. Podsednik will be in left, Rowand in center.

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 08:29 PM
Why did they sign Dye if they were going to deal Lee for an OF'er?
Um to play RF?

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:30 PM
Well, let's look at some actual numbers from 2004, shall we?

Full Season

Lee Konerko
BA .305 .277
SLG .525 .535
OPS .891 .894

Men in Scoring position

Lee Konerko
BA .299 .314
SLG .510 .564
OPS .876 .973

So with runners in SP, Lee hit marginally worse than his overall averages, while Konerko hit significantly better. Care to rethink your point?
Thanks for the insight. His numbers were better than I thought -- I guess I was thinking more of the 23 GIDP, the fact that a majority of his HRs were solo, and re-thinking some 2003 highlights. My evidence was mostly anecdotal anyway, as clutch hitting usually is.

But that reminds me of another point -- I think Paulie has maximized his trade value. I think if Lee can finally put his splits together for a full season, it could be something special.

I could very well be wrong, but the last time I got this feeling about a trade was Foulke for Koch.

flo-B-flo
12-13-2004, 08:31 PM
Thanks for the memories C. Lee.:(: Especially against the c---.

Wealz
12-13-2004, 08:32 PM
Um to play RF?
Rowand?

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 08:33 PM
Rowand?
CF

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 08:35 PM
Rowand?
Okay, so how do you see the outfield? You see Everett, Dye and Pod?

Say Frank isn't ready at the beginning of the year, that moves Everett to DH and the other three take the OF slots. When Frank comes back, the best three stay out there. If Pod is a bust, they leave Rowand in CF and move Everett to LF.

Wealz
12-13-2004, 08:36 PM
Dye was to replace Odonez. Podsednik will be in left, Rowand in center.
What about using the Lee/Dye savings to get a Drew?

wassagstdu
12-13-2004, 08:37 PM
I don't like it because I like Lee a lot. He has gotten better every year, almost every month. I like speed but I would rather have seen them trade one of their MANY DHs. It was fun to watch Lee improve. That, in my humble opinion, is the way to build a winner, not by playing fantasy baseball.

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:38 PM
Between Podsednik, Everett, Dye and Rowand, our entire outfield is composed of guys who:

1) Need to prove that a breakout year wasn't a fluke.
2) Need to prove they can stay healthy for a full season.

Last season, we entered Spring Training with two guys who you could put down for 30 HR in the corners.

I hope these moves work out for the best. But for now, I can't bring myself to post a smiley face, much less a dancing banana.

illiniwhitesox
12-13-2004, 08:40 PM
How can we give up our best baserunner?

I'll sorely miss the mindless path that Carlos would take around the bases. No more - "No! No! What the blank are you thinking!"

Best wishes to CLee. He did improve in the field and became a much better hitter LY.

chisoxmike
12-13-2004, 08:42 PM
I just fear that this is one of maybe one or two more bad moves by the Sox. Do you guys actually think they will go and sign a decent, being the key word, starting pitcher????

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 08:42 PM
Between Podsednik, Everett, Dye and Rowand, our entire outfield is composed of guys who:

1) Need to prove that a breakout year wasn't a fluke.
2) Need to prove they can stay healthy for a full season.

Last season, we entered Spring Training with two guys who you could put down for 30 HR in the corners.

I hope these moves work out for the best. But for now, I can't bring myself to post a smiley face, much less a dancing banana.
And then one of them got badly injured and missed over half the year. There are no guarantees.

Dye will be fine and will light it up in USCF

If Everett is healthy, he will put up similar numbers to Lee. If not, Pod may have a good season anyway.

At least there is depth.

Wealz
12-13-2004, 08:43 PM
Okay, so how do you see the outfield? You see Everett, Dye and Pod?

Say Frank isn't ready at the beginning of the year, that moves Everett to DH and the other three take the OF slots. When Frank comes back, the best three stay out there. If Pod is a bust, they leave Rowand in CF and move Everett to LF.
The point of trading Lee is to free up money, so if they're going to free up money and get Podsednik why sign Dye? I'd rather have Podsednik in left, Rowand in center, Everett in right and $13M than the current configuration and $7M

Lip Man 1
12-13-2004, 08:43 PM
My initial recation was Lee for Podsednik? What???

HOWEVER before passing final approval or condemnation you have to wait to see what else Williams has up his sleeve.

IF the Sox use the five million and get another starting pitcher like a Clement or Perez or if they use the money to get another quality bullpen arm and a second basemen then this was not a bad deal.

It's like when Roland Hemond remade the team overnight in the winter of 1970. For every Sox player traded, he tried to get two or three competent players to fill holes.

IF however the Sox do nothing and take that money and deposit it in Uncle Jerry's ever increasing bank account, then this deal was a White Flag Trade only in December instead of July.

We will simply have to wait and see.

Lip

DSpivack
12-13-2004, 08:43 PM
What about using the Lee/Dye savings to get a Drew?
And play him where? So when Frank comes back we can have Podsednik, Rowand, Dye, Everett, and Drew?

As many said,we should use the leftover money to sign a SP. Only then does this trade become a positive. If Lee was going to go I figured it would be in a bigger deal for a top starter, which is a lot more of a need. Now Scott can get on base, yes, but as I see we no longer have one of better offenses in baseball. We should be decent, but not great. Along with these diminished we need better pitching--not Jason Grilli as a fifth starter. So I'll think this trade not a complete disaster when we sign a starter, which I'll believe when I see it. You can't just say this a good trade right now because we are going to use the money to sign a starter....we have to actually get the starter first.

mdep524
12-13-2004, 08:44 PM
Here's the point that I think almost everybody is missing with this trade:

Everyone seems to think the saving grace of this trade will be the signing of a FA pitcher, likely either Matt Clement or Odalis Perez. I admit that I would be happy (and surprised) if the Sox signed one of those guys, but the fact is they're just not that good.

The prize of the offseason, especially at this point, has to come via trade. Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder, Javier Vazquez, Randy Johnson, AJ Burnett... all are significantly better than Clement or Perez. Would you rather trade Carlos Lee for Tim Hudson, or Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik, Luis Vizcaino and Odalis Perez? Also consider the fact that Hudson's 2005 salary will be less than Perez/Clement's.

Basically, I think the Sox misused their assets. Carlos Lee, debatably a budding star, was the Sox most valuable asset (beside maybe BMac, Anderson, Rowand, Buehrle and Garcia- none of whom will be traded anyway). KW would have been wiser to cash in his chips big time with Lee, use Lee for the big splash, as opposed to using Lee as a precursor to a smaller splash.

whtsx1959
12-13-2004, 08:52 PM
does anyone know of any Brewers fansites to see what they're saying?
I looked but I could'nt find any.

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 08:53 PM
Odalis Perez's numbers are masked by the fact that he had 18 no-decisions last year. He had the NL's worst run support.

Playing in Dodger Stadium helps a little bit, too, but I'd rank him over Clement, Burnett and Vazquez. A 3.25 ERA and a 1.14 WHIP are good no matter where you're playing.

Wealz
12-13-2004, 08:53 PM
And play him where? So when Frank comes back we can have Podsednik, Rowand, Dye, Everett, and Drew?

As many said,we should use the leftover money to sign a SP. Only then does this trade become a positive. If Lee was going to go I figured it would be in a bigger deal for a top starter, which is a lot more of a need. Now Scott can get on base, yes, but as I see we no longer have one of better offenses in baseball. We should be decent, but not great. Along with these diminished we need better pitching--not Jason Grilli as a fifth starter. So I'll think this trade not a complete disaster when we sign a starter, which I'll believe when I see it. You can't just say this a good trade right now because we are going to use the money to sign a starter....we have to actually get the starter first.
The offense is in worse shape than the pitching right now. Dye should not have been signed if they were going to deal Lee for another OF'er.

faneidde
12-13-2004, 08:56 PM
exactly. I've seen him play time and time again and he is much better than those numbers.

Do any of you know who hit behind him in the 2 spot in the batting order?....

I'll give you a hint: JUNIOR SPIVEY and CRAIG COUNSELL.


i'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by explaining what this would mean to most people's stats. Are you suggesting teams were pitching around a lead-off hitter who stole 70 bases last year?

That said, I like this trade initially, but I'd like to see the Sox use the money to make a run at another bat, not another pitcher. Pitching right now is clearly a seller's market. Guys like Jaret Wright getting 7 mil per, Pavono gets 40 mil when he has a losing record. I'd like to see the Sox make a run at JD Drew myself.

That said, CLee, we'll miss you and wish you the best of luck, especially against the Cubs.

Well, I have been one of the biggest KW crictics on here in a long time, but I am actually pleased with this. No one can say the team we have before this trade was good enough to contend with Minnesota. I'm not sure how much this helps, but we'll see who the Sox go out and sign.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 08:57 PM
How can we give up our best baserunner?

I'll sorely miss the mindless path that Carlos would take around the bases. No more - "No! No! What the blank are you thinking!"

Best wishes to CLee. He did improve in the field and became a much better hitter LY.

In the mean time we got an even better baserunner.

MUsoxfan
12-13-2004, 09:01 PM
Wait....illiniwhitesox forgot to use teal (hopefully). Illiniwhitesox....be mindful of the color teal. It makes a world of difference.

hose
12-13-2004, 09:02 PM
I don't know much about Pod but if he is such a good CF why not move Rowand to right and Dye to left .

3 cannons in the outfield , Pod and Rowand tracking everything down.

MRKARNO
12-13-2004, 09:05 PM
My initial reaction was that this trade was horrible, but I dont think it's that horrible now.

Podsednik if he reverts to his form last year....then it's not worth it. If it's somewhere in between 2003 and 2004 (without being too close to 2003) and we sign Odalis Perez, then I think it's probably a good deal for us.

Vizcaino is another total wild card because he's had good years and bad years. The fact that our bullpen actually consists of at least five competent pitchers (Politte, Hermanson, Takatsu, Marte, Vizcaino) and that was one of the big keys in 2000. If we sign a Clement/Perez type, I'm fine with the sum total of this deal, but the deal by itself was not a particularly good one in terms of talent unless the PTBNL is Weeks or Fielder (not happening).

Justafan
12-13-2004, 09:07 PM
If Posednik moves to LF, we are talking about a guy who will produce at a .265/12/45 clip. That is brutal for a corner outfield spot.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 09:08 PM
Odalis Perez's numbers are masked by the fact that he had 18 no-decisions last year. He had the NL's worst run support.

Playing in Dodger Stadium helps a little bit, too, but I'd rank him over Clement, Burnett and Vazquez. A 3.25 ERA and a 1.14 WHIP are good no matter where you're playing.
Odalis the last 3 years has a 1.20WHIP on the road and a 4.09 ERA. He's also posted a 1.70 GB/FB over the past 3 years (home+away). He's a perfect fit for the cell, and he looks like he'll be cheaper than Clement. Plus, while Boston & Anaheim are in a bidding war over Player A (Clement), KW can sneak in and steal Player B (Perez) more cheaply.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 09:09 PM
If Posednik moves to LF, we are talking about a guy who will produce at a .265/12/45 clip. That is brutal for a corner outfield spot.
Not when your CF posts 25-30HR.

If you swap them so Rowand plays LF and Pod CF, they'd be fine. I don't think the team suddenly gets significantly worse when they flip spots in the OF.

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 09:11 PM
Brewers fans I know are telling me that Podsednik wore out his welcome, both with fans and the coaching staff.

He went from a guy who would try to hit the ball the other way into a guy that tried to yank everything into the right field stands. As a result, he had a lot of medium fly-outs. While he said he was working with the coaching staff to change it, coaches said he didn't listen, just did his own thing. He also swung at more junk, as evidenced by his walk rate going down.

Ruh-roh.

cleogogo
12-13-2004, 09:14 PM
Carlos was my favorite player and i'm sad to see him go. But how can we evaluate this trade when there is a ptbnl? I like the idea of trading one player and getting three in return. I do believe the sox could be better this year or next, providing the ptbnl is major league player or a top prospect. What is the deal with the ptbnl? If i recall,sometimes the player is named shortly after the trade and sometimes not until the next year. Can anyone shed light on this?
thanks

California Sox
12-13-2004, 09:24 PM
Podsednik posted a .677 OPS last season. For comparison, Crede's was .717!!! Ben Davis was at .676. The guy had a baaaaaaaad year. Now he's the leftfielder. If Frank and his .997 OPS is out of our lineup for the first two months of the season, we're going to have some kind of trouble scoring runs.

Here's the projected lineup and OPS's

Podsednik, lf .677
Rowand, cf .905
Thomas, dh .996 (Everett .742!)
Konerko, 1b .894
Dye, rf .793
Uribe, ss .837
Crede, 3b .717
Harris, 2b .665
Davis, c .676

Ugh! That lineup blows.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-13-2004, 09:24 PM
I like the trade. we traded Carlos Thomas, or Frank Konerko, or Paul Crede, or Everett for someone with speed. One of those guys had to go. Only two are truly moveable. CLEE is a good ballplayer, but he was everywhere in the line-up. Unfortunately, none of the other guys get the lead-off man we need. Bullpen help is needed. Remember those steller pitching performances in back-to-back games in Detroit? We gave up RBI's, but improved the defense. Will it work? Pitching and defense wins pennants, did we improve both as a result of the trade?

lowesox
12-13-2004, 09:25 PM
Wow - just when I thought the last two signings were so bad that I was going to take some time away from the White Sox, Kenny goes out and makes a great trade!

This one is well thought out. Gives us speed. Saves us money. And addresses a few holes. Put the money back in properly, and I could see this year being very special.

We needed an overhaul and Kenny went out and made that happen.

Wealz
12-13-2004, 09:27 PM
Podsednik posted a .677 OPS last season. For comparison, Crede's was .717!!! Ben Davis was at .676. The guy had a baaaaaaaad year. Now he's the leftfielder. If Frank and his .997 OPS is out of our lineup for the first two months of the season, we're going to have some kind of trouble scoring runs.

Here's the projected lineup and OPS's

Podsednik, lf .677
Rowand, cf .905
Thomas, dh .996 (Everett .742!)
Konerko, 1b .894
Dye, rf .793
Uribe, ss .837
Crede, 3b .717
Harris, 2b .665
Davis, c .676

Ugh! That lineup blows.
Agreed, but we need another starter, right? :smile:

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 09:28 PM
Podsednik posted a .677 OPS last season. For comparison, Crede's was .717!!! Ben Davis was at .676. The guy had a baaaaaaaad year. Now he's the leftfielder. If Frank and his .997 OPS is out of our lineup for the first two months of the season, we're going to have some kind of trouble scoring runs.

Here's the projected lineup and OPS's

Podsednik, lf .677
Rowand, cf .905
Thomas, dh .996 (Everett .742!)
Konerko, 1b .894
Dye, rf .793
Uribe, ss .837
Crede, 3b .717
Harris, 2b .665
Davis, c .676

Ugh! That lineup blows.
OPS is a horrible metric to use for leadoff hitters. Juan Pierre, a pretty damn good leadoff guy posted a fairly pedestrian .781. Carl Crawford: .781. Jason Kendall: .789.

Leadoff hitters generally have piss-poor SLG, and while their OBP is usually better, it's generally not enough to compensate.

Whether or not Pod is successful for us will depend almost exclusively on whether his OBP is closer to his 2004 .313 or his 2003 .364.

fquaye149
12-13-2004, 09:29 PM
Are you suggesting teams were pitching around a lead-off hitter who stole 70 bases last year?
.
all i know is that in 2003 he hit in front of jenkins and sexson.

this year he hit in front of spivey...


but maybe he just got really lucky for an entire year in 2003...yet continued to put up the same K, power numbers, and bb numbers in 2004

California Sox
12-13-2004, 09:33 PM
OPS is a horrible metric to use for leadoff hitters. Juan Pierre, a pretty damn good leadoff guy posted a fairly pedestrian .781. Carl Crawford: .781. Jason Kendall: .789.
Please note that all the players you mention have OPS's in excess of 100 points higher that Scott Po. That's not insignificant. It's like Jermaine Dye to Ben Davis. If he's able to have an OBP increase of, say, 40 points he goes from excretable to merely bad. Case in point, Willie Harris had a .343 OBP last season.

Sorry, but this deal is godawful.

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 09:34 PM
If Frank and his .997 OPS is out of our lineup for the first two months of the season, we're going to have some kind of trouble scoring runs.
I think scoring more runs is one thing this trade will do for the Sox. At least scoring more runs in games were the Sox can only manage singles. With this lineup the Sox can win with small ball and big ball. The Red Sox were able to do that and they won the WS.

CanOfCorn
12-13-2004, 09:34 PM
but maybe he just got really lucky for an entire year in 2003...yet continued to put up the same K, power numbers, and bb numbers in 2004


...in more ABs.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 09:38 PM
Please note that all the players you mention have OPS's in excess of 100 points higher that Scott Po. That's not insignificant. It's like Jermaine Dye to Ben Davis. If he's able to have an OBP increase of, say, 40 points he goes from excretable to merely bad. Case in point, Willie Harris had a .343 OBP last season.

Sorry, but this deal is godawful.
Yes, all of those players had much better OPS's. A better comparison:

Pierre: career .361 OBP / .374 in 2004
Crawford: career .315 OBP / .331 in 2004
Kendall: career .387OBP / .399 in 2004

Podsednik: career .343OBP / .313 in 2004

If he posts another OBP in the .313 range, it will be a bad deal (depending on what we get with the savings). If he posts his average of .343, with his speed, he'll be a damn good leadoff guy. He won't be an all-star caliber leadoff hitter (ala Pierre/Kendall), but he'll be very very good. Kind of like Carlos was as a run producer - not all-star, but close.

California Sox
12-13-2004, 09:52 PM
I think scoring more runs is one thing this trade will do for the Sox. At least scoring more runs in games were the Sox can only manage singles. With this lineup the Sox can win with small ball and big ball. The Red Sox were able to do that and they won the WS.
The Red Sox were able to win the World Series, not because they stole many bases (68 compared to 123 for their opponents) but because they led the league in OPS (a remarkable .832 as a team).

Here's their lineup with OPS

Damon, cf .857
Bellhorn, 2b .817
Ramirez, lf 1.009
Ortiz, dh .983
Millar, 1b .857
Nixon, rf .887
Varitek, c .872
Cabrera, ss .785 (Garciaparra .867)
Mueller, 3b .811

Compare that to our projected lineup to give you an idea how far we have to go to be competitive even if our pitching is good.

floppyfish27
12-13-2004, 09:54 PM
I agree. This blows major chunks.
this trade only makes sense if they add the likes of a clement with the $6m saved. It is too early to judge but i've already read reports saying the sox have turned their focus to clement.

All things said, if clement is added to our rotation, can we win with buhrle, garcia, clement, contreras, garland in the central? I'll run with that all day/night long!!

I know clement will prob get $7m-$8m yr based on the going rate and I am sure they will pony up the extra couple Mil to complete the rotation without having to trade Pauly or anyone else!!

GOX SOX - we are planning a trip (june 05) to Colorado then San diego to watch the boys play.. any interest.. send me an email..

Jerome
12-13-2004, 09:59 PM
Okay. I haven't read all the posts, so I may be repeating.

In my opinion, the Sox greatest need last year was a high OBP leadoff man. Had we had that, we'd probably have made the playoffs. (Remeber how unstoppable we were in June with Harris and Uribe getting on base a lot?)

So we get ... a guy who, while still a leadoff man... got on base at a solid .313.

For this trade to avoid going down as the worst trade in KW history (exluding Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch), we better be getting the 2003 version of Podsednik and not the 2004.

diehard
12-13-2004, 10:03 PM
Trouble was KW was trying to trade more prospects for Carl Everett, then realized he was already here. So he trades C. Lee so he can reaquire him in late June. Brilliant! Once you put on that Sox uniform you are always part of the Sox family. Who wants to bet on the date we trade for Sandy Alomar Jr? Trade sucks so far.

By the way Happy Birthday Billy Koch.

RowandKicksAss07
12-13-2004, 10:06 PM
the only way this trade turns out poorly for the sox is if willie harris gets it goin and becomes a very good major league player, then you will have two of the same player in podsednik and harris. the chances of that happening are very slim, especially if the sox pick up a 2nd baseman, but could happen in the future

duke of dorwood
12-13-2004, 10:07 PM
Again-this was a salary dump-there are comparable guys out there, some better, that could have been signed without giving up our top player. His value was not used to its maximum and again, this was a sickening, needless giveaway of our most talented asset. Williams is simply an idiot.

Tragg
12-13-2004, 10:10 PM
Yes, all of those players had much better OPS's. A better comparison:

Pierre: career .361 OBP / .374 in 2004
Crawford: career .315 OBP / .331 in 2004
Kendall: career .387OBP / .399 in 2004

Podsednik: career .343OBP / .313 in 2004

If he posts another OBP in the .313 range, it will be a bad deal (depending on what we get with the savings). If he posts his average of .343, with his speed, he'll be a damn good leadoff guy. He won't be an all-star caliber leadoff hitter (ala Pierre/Kendall), but he'll be very very good. Kind of like Carlos was as a run producer - not all-star, but close..343 OBP is average for a leadoff hitter;
If we get that, and we better get at least that, the trade remains ridiculously one-sided talent for talent. this is an obvious salary dump; whether the purpose of the dump is to directly improve the chairman's wallet or if it will be reinvested remains to be seen. Neverthless, the notion that these 2 players were the best we could get in a salary dump with the least bit of skilled negotiation, strains the boundaries of reasonable belief.
We heard williams' nonsense a couple of years ago when he gave durham away for a prospect AND picked up salary - it was the best he could do. Yet when we acquire veterans, we seem to pay a lot more than one prospect. Funny how it works out that way - no one wants our veterans; but the veterans we want, always come at a huge price. Or maybe there is one common thread - Kenny Williams doing the negotiation.

Some of his trades work out well, some don't. But what is becoming pretty damn clear is that he consistently gets the worst of it on paper. He pays more than what he receives, no matter if he's the dumper or the dumpee. His negotiation skills are extremely dubious.
This is getting unspinnable.

soxfan43
12-13-2004, 10:12 PM
i agree, kenny williams is now a bonafide retard. clee has improved every season for the sox, ya great way to treat a hardworker. whose going to drive in this deuchebag from the breweres when paulie goes into one of his annual slumps? the big skirt? ya right, even if he's healthy whose going to protect him? another terrible trade for the worst GM in the game.

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 10:12 PM
the only way this trade turns out poorly for the sox is if willie harris gets it goin and becomes a very good major league player, then you will have two of the same player in podsednik and harris. the chances of that happening are very slim, especially if the sox pick up a 2nd baseman, but could happen in the future
Yeah, that would suck. TWO Quality leadoff hitters. Why that would mean Rowand would have to bat like 7th or 6th or something where he would drive in runs.

Too much talent... oh what a dream that would be... sigh...

batmanZoSo
12-13-2004, 10:21 PM
.343 OBP is average for a leadoff hitter;
If we get that, and we better get at least that, the trade remains ridiculously one-sided talent for talent. this is an obvious salary dump; whether the purpose of the dump is to directly improve the chairman's wallet or if it will be reinvested remains to be seen. Neverthless, the notion that these 2 players were the best we could get in a salary dump with the least bit of skilled negotiation, strains the boundaries of reasonable belief.
We heard williams' nonsense a couple of years ago when he gave durham away for a prospect AND picked up salary - it was the best he could do. Yet when we acquire veterans, we seem to pay a lot more than one prospect. Funny how it works out that way - no one wants our veterans; but the veterans we want, always come at a huge price. Or maybe there is one common thread - Kenny Williams doing the negotiation.

Some of his trades work out well, some don't. But what is becoming pretty damn clear is that he consistently gets the worst of it on paper. He pays more than what he receives, no matter if he's the dumper or the dumpee. His negotiation skills are extremely dubious.
This is getting unspinnable.
Scotty Pod (I like the ring of that already) had a .379 on-base in 03. That's better than Lee or Konerko. We can't just look at last year where he was down a little bit. There's no reason he can't bounce back and put up his .343 average or better. Even .330 is pretty good for a guy with 70 steals. Nowadays, you take .330 from a leadoff hitter.

pearso66
12-13-2004, 10:21 PM
I was thinking of starting another thread, but I'll post it here, If mods think it deserves its own, they cna move it, which they likely wont, but here goes.

If the people who are saying we should have traded Paul to the Brewers for the same players, they are nuts. Where do they think he'll play. Its not like the NL has a DH, and they already have a 1st baseman. Lee was the only one that could have made this trade work. Was it a good or bad trade? that remains to be seen, but as I said, Lee was the only one that could have gone

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 10:29 PM
Scotty Pod (I like the ring of that already) had a .379 on-base in 03. That's better than Lee or Konerko. We can't just look at last year where he was down a little bit. There's no reason he can't bounce back and put up his .343 average or better.
By that logic, E-Lo is a cinch to be back as our fifth starter!

batmanZoSo
12-13-2004, 10:33 PM
By that logic, E-Lo is a cinch to be back as our fifth starter!
By that logic, anything anyone says can be distorted by someone else to the utmost extreme.

Nick@Nite
12-13-2004, 10:35 PM
Good sign. I saw Podsednik at the Urinal and he looked like freakin Carl Lewis out there running the bases...
Yeah... but let's hope he doesn't start looking like Ben Johnson... or Marion Jones. :D:

voodoochile
12-13-2004, 10:35 PM
By that logic, anything anyone says can be distorted by someone else to the utmost extreme.
What are you saying here?

Are you calling me a fascist?

:wink:

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 10:38 PM
.343 OBP is average for a leadoff hitter;
If we get that, and we better get at least that, the trade remains ridiculously one-sided talent for talent. this is an obvious salary dump; whether the purpose of the dump is to directly improve the chairman's wallet or if it will be reinvested remains to be seen. Neverthless, the notion that these 2 players were the best we could get in a salary dump with the least bit of skilled negotiation, strains the boundaries of reasonable belief.
We heard williams' nonsense a couple of years ago when he gave durham away for a prospect AND picked up salary - it was the best he could do. Yet when we acquire veterans, we seem to pay a lot more than one prospect. Funny how it works out that way - no one wants our veterans; but the veterans we want, always come at a huge price. Or maybe there is one common thread - Kenny Williams doing the negotiation.

Some of his trades work out well, some don't. But what is becoming pretty damn clear is that he consistently gets the worst of it on paper. He pays more than what he receives, no matter if he's the dumper or the dumpee. His negotiation skills are extremely dubious.
This is getting unspinnable.
Can we get off of the Durham trade already? That was a pretty unique circumstance since it was a deadline deal made in an environment where all parties had already agreed to eliminate FA compensation - something that got undone by issues with the international draft.

If it's up to KW, this trade ends up as Carlos Lee +2mil for Podsednik, Vizcaino, Odalis Perez, & a PTBNL. That's friggin awesome as a trade. Cheap guys who as recently as a year ago were excellent leadoff hitters do not come cheaply in trade - especially not when you're sending over significant salary.

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 10:48 PM
I was thinking of starting another thread, but I'll post it here, If mods think it deserves its own, they cna move it, which they likely wont, but here goes.

Thank you for helping me towards a double tomato.


Aside:
Take that you neo-fascist pizza maker!!!

((Damm fine pizza I might add.))

Tragg
12-13-2004, 10:51 PM
Can we get off of the Durham trade already? That was a pretty unique circumstance since it was a deadline deal made in an environment where all parties had already agreed to eliminate FA compensation - something that got undone by issues with the international draft.

If it's up to KW, this trade ends up as Carlos Lee +2mil for Podsednik, Vizcaino, Odalis Perez, & a PTBNL. That's friggin awesome as a trade. Cheap guys who as recently as a year ago were excellent leadoff hitters do not come cheaply in trade - especially not when you're sending over significant salary.a)I don't figure how you get Perez for $5 mill a year - save $7 on Lee and end up with 2?
b)Do you seriously believe that these two players are the best we could get in a salary dump of a player signed up for 2 more years at a reasonable price? We couldn't get similar marginal talent for Konerko from someone?

The Mariners just signed Sexon, a slightly better version of Paul Konerko but off of a major injury, to a deal worth 11 Mill per year. Only when Williams is doing the dealing, do sluggers have no value.

MeanFish
12-13-2004, 10:52 PM
Best players? No. Best fit for our team? Maybe.

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:01 PM
I haven't made up my mind on this trade yet. Podsednik and Vizcaino *could* turn out to be key pieces of a brand new puzzle, or they could turn out to be flotsam. It all depends on the complementary moves that will undoubtedly follow.

What's the book on Podsednik as an outfielder? From what I've read he's an above-average CF. We should be excellent defensively, whether our outfield ends up being Podsednik-Rowand-Dye or Rowand-Podsednik-Dye. (Nagging worry: what if we acquired Podsednik as a precursor to trading Rowand, maybe at midseason when Frank is healthy? We're paying Everett too much not to use him.)

It seems that KW is doing his best to provide Ozzie with the kind of team he wants. Unfortunately, Ozzie thinks you win with speed and defense. In reality, you win with pitching, walks, and three run homers.

Lee would still be a Sox if we'd held on to Jeremy Reed.


:KW

"We think Podsednik will benefit from batting in front of Rowand, Ordonez, Lee, and Konerko."

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 11:08 PM
a)I don't figure how you get Perez for $5 mill a year - save $7 on Lee and end up with 2?
b)Do you seriously believe that these two players are the best we could get in a salary dump of a player signed up for 2 more years at a reasonable price? We couldn't get similar marginal talent for Konerko from someone?
I assume Perez will cost 7-8mil. We got 6 in savings in the deal. /So you add in 2 more to sign Odalis. Hence Lee + the 2 additional mil = Pod+Vizcaino+PTBNL+Perez

As for Carlos, I don't think he's all that cheap, which means you don't get as much as you'd like in trade for him. For example, I don't think you'd get Hudson for Lee, it would take the addition of Garland and probably a prospect. Who do you think was going to trade for Carlos and what do you think you could have gotten back?

And FWIW - Podsednik didn't hit well in 2004, but he hit great in 2003 and he's still young. His career OBP including minors is .345 (majors = .343), so he's a solid bet to improve off of 2004 hitting with better guys behind him. He's valuable because he's young but has shown success, and he's really cheap for at least 2 more years.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 11:09 PM
Lee would still be a Sox if we'd held on to Jeremy Reed.



And we wouldn't have Freddy Garcia. Not to mention that we'd have given up on 2004 before having Frank & Maggs go out for the year, how smart would that have been?

Wealz
12-13-2004, 11:15 PM
I assume Perez will cost 7-8mil. We got 6 in savings in the deal. /So you add in 2 more to sign Odalis. Hence Lee + the 2 additional mil = Pod+Vizcaino+PTBNL+Perez

As for Carlos, I don't think he's all that cheap, which means you don't get as much as you'd like in trade for him. For example, I don't think you'd get Hudson for Lee, it would take the addition of Garland and probably a prospect. Who do you think was going to trade for Carlos and what do you think you could have gotten back?

And FWIW - Podsednik didn't hit well in 2004, but he hit great in 2003 and he's still young. His career OBP including minors is .345 (majors = .343), so he's a solid bet to improve off of 2004 hitting with better guys behind him. He's valuable because he's young but has shown success, and he's really cheap for at least 2 more years.
Who is going to you know HIT for this team? If you spend Lee's savings on Perez that means $33M on a starting staff that isn't nearly good enough for the putrid offense that will be supporting it.

OEO Magglio
12-13-2004, 11:18 PM
Who is going to you know HIT for this team? If you spend Lee's savings on Perez that means $33M on a starting staff that isn't nearly good enough for the putrid offense that will be supporting it.
This offense isn't that bad. Plus if you add Clement or Perez the overall pitching staffs is one of the best in baseball.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2004, 11:18 PM
Who is going to you know HIT for this team? If you spend Lee's savings on Perez that means $33M on a starting staff that isn't nearly good enough for the putrid offense that will be supporting it.Yeah, Flight, don't you know? We need more power hitters on this team. Why mess with success?

Tragg
12-13-2004, 11:18 PM
And FWIW - Podsednik didn't hit well in 2004, but he hit great in 2003 and he's still young. His career OBP including minors is .345 (majors = .343), so he's a solid bet to improve off of 2004 hitting with better guys behind him. He's valuable because he's young but has shown success, and he's really cheap for at least 2 more years. Pods is a risk - which is another reason we should get MORE not less because we're taking the riskier player; you know what Lee brings you - he's done it for 5 seasons.
Pods could very easily be a Singleton - career minor leaguer, have a good season when finally brought up in his mid-late 20s, then has a lousy season and more lousy seasons. Or he may not be, I honestly don't know. But touting his average OBP as the type of player we're getting is sheer spin; - and IF that's what we get, it's still average for a leadoff hitter.
We're taking the risk here; yet we are getting no upside for the risk because the BEST we can do still leaves us on the short end of the stick.

And then I give you Exhibit A - Sexon signed for 11 Million a year when there is no market for sluggers......
Exhibit B - read the press release from MLB and what will you find - 3/4 of it is quotes from the BREWERS about how great Pods is; they obviously perfected that patter when talking when convincing Kenny Williams what a great deal he was getting.....Just like Billy Beane convinced him there was no market for Durham (when other dumpers got a lot more than what williams got that year, par usual).

I respect Williams for trying; but consistently taking 4 $1s for a $5 won't exactly build your bankroll in the long-run.

soxfan43
12-13-2004, 11:19 PM
i agree. rowand had a great year, but i doubt he can put up those numbers again. 3B, 2B and catcher are pretty much 10 or 12 outs in any game. without the protection of maggs and lee, thomas and konerko are going to be badly exposed. could be a long season

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:20 PM
And we wouldn't have Freddy Garcia. Not to mention that we'd have given up on 2004 before having Frank & Maggs go out for the year, how smart would that have been?
Not true on either count.

1) There were other combinations that would have brought Garcia. For example, Crede was an option, and we wouldn't have been any worse off with an Uribe-Valentin-Harris infield than we were with Crede in there. Plus we could've picked up a Koskie or a Hinske this winter for a reasonable sum.

2) Maggs was already hurt when the trade happened, and Reed was the best replacement we had available in our system. I still shudder when I remember the Borchard-Everett-Gload-Burke-Perez rotation we finished the year with. You might want to look up Reed's September numbers with Seattle and reconsider whether calling him up would have been "giving up"...

Wealz
12-13-2004, 11:21 PM
This offense isn't that bad. Plus if you add Clement or Perez the overall pitching staffs is one of the best in baseball.
The offense is terrible.

pearso66
12-13-2004, 11:22 PM
i agree. rowand had a great year, but i doubt he can put up those numbers again. 3B, 2B and catcher are pretty much 10 or 12 outs in any game. without the protection of maggs and lee, thomas and konerko are going to be badly exposed. could be a long season

I tend to think Crede will get better, as will Willie and Davis. How much better, is unknown, but I don't think they are going to be as bad as a lot of people think. But I could be an optimist

Andy T Clown
12-13-2004, 11:24 PM
There is a rumour going around that C Lee has been on roids the last few years. I hope it is not true, but if he gets as skinny as Shammy Sosa, and the production goes down, this would be a steal.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 11:24 PM
Not true on either count.

1) There were other combinations that would have brought Garcia. For example, Crede was an option, and we wouldn't have been any worse off with an Uribe-Valentin-Harris infield than we were with Crede in there. Plus we could've picked up a Koskie or a Hinske this winter for a reasonable sum.

2) Maggs was already hurt when the trade happened, and Reed was the best replacement we had available in our system. I still shudder when I remember the Borchard-Everett-Gload-Burke-Perez rotation we finished the year with. You might want to look up Reed's September numbers with Seattle and reconsider whether calling him up would have been "giving up"...
Well, the debate between trading your starting 3B or a top prospect OF for a team without any OF issues is IMO debatable(and Maggs injury was at the time supposed to be minor with him due back within a few weeks). Uribe was your starting 2B because Harris wasn't performing.

pearso66
12-13-2004, 11:25 PM
There is a rumour going around that C Lee has been on roids the last few years. I hope it is not true, but if he gets as skinny as Shammy Sosa, and the production goes down, this would be a steal.

Where did this rumor come from? I have never heard it?

MRKARNO
12-13-2004, 11:27 PM
By that logic, E-Lo is a cinch to be back as our fifth starter!
The difference between loaiza and Podsednik is Loaiza's many bad years before the good one. Podsednik is more of a wild card because his major league sample size is smaller.

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:27 PM
I just hope Podsednik wasn't on steroids. His production can't afford to go down.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 11:29 PM
Who is going to you know HIT for this team? If you spend Lee's savings on Perez that means $33M on a starting staff that isn't nearly good enough for the putrid offense that will be supporting it.
How's this for power?

Podsednik: 10HR
Rowand: 25
Frank/Everett: 35 (combined)
Konerko: 35
Dye: 30
Crede: 25
Uribe: 25
Burke/Davis: 10

Total = 195

That would have ranked them 11th in majors in HR. And a ton more of them would have been multi-run shots, so I think they'd end up with a better run scoring ranking than 11th.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2004, 11:30 PM
Well, the debate between trading your starting 3B or a top prospect OF for a team without any OF issues is IMO debatable(and Maggs injury was at the time supposed to be minor with him due back within a few weeks). Uribe was your starting 2B because Harris wasn't performing.Actually, IIRC, if Crede was an option, it was instead of Olivo, not Reed.

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 11:32 PM
Actually, IIRC, if Crede was an option, it was instead of Olivo, not Reed.
I'm pretty sure Seattle wanted Olivo+Crede but accepted Olivo+Reed. Obviously in hindsight Crede would have been better to deal, but at the time trading 2 starters from a team that was on a real roll and didn't really have a need for an OF (but did for a 3B) wasn't IMO a smart move.

pearso66
12-13-2004, 11:32 PM
Actually, IIRC, if Crede was an option, it was instead of Olivo, not Reed.


IIRC it was Olivo and Crede or Olivo and Reed. At least that what was posted here

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:35 PM
Well, the debate between trading your starting 3B or a top prospect OF for a team without any OF issues is IMO debatable
Yes, and we've debated it to death, so I apologize for bringing it up again. I'm just mad we traded Reed when we had a glaring hole at leadoff, and now we have to trade Lee to fill that hole. The real question is whether KW actually believes Podsednik is a better solution than Reed...

pearso66
12-13-2004, 11:38 PM
Yes, and we've debated it to death, so I apologize for bringing it up again. I'm just mad we traded Reed when we had a glaring hole at leadoff, and now we have to trade Lee to fill that hole. The real question is whether KW actually believes Podsednik is a better solution than Reed...

How is that the real question? The deal wasnt Reed for Posednik, nor did he make that trade intending to get him this year. Reed was given up for a solid pitcher, and in hindsite to me, looks to be a good trade, the way the market has gone. I would say people need to get over Reed being traded, but there are people here who still havent gotten over Fogg, Wells and Lowe being traded :rolleyes:

Wealz
12-13-2004, 11:42 PM
How's this for power?

Podsednik: 10HR
Rowand: 25
Frank/Everett: 35 (combined)
Konerko: 35
Dye: 30
Crede: 25
Uribe: 25
Burke/Davis: 10

Total = 195

That would have ranked them 11th in majors in HR. And a ton more of them would have been multi-run shots, so I think they'd end up with a better run scoring ranking than 11th.
How do you figure a ton more multi-run homers?

As of right now, LF, 3B, 2B, C are well below average offensively. You can't have this many outs in a lineup and expect to win anything, Matt Clement or not.

soxfan43
12-13-2004, 11:42 PM
solid hitting outfielders are a lot easier to find than top quality starters like Garcia. Plus with anderson and sweeney in the system, it was a rare position of the strength for the sox. the real issue is how KW is gonna waste the money from the carlos deal.

Tragg
12-13-2004, 11:42 PM
The real question to me is does Williams believe, as he seems to, that he got equal player value in return for Lee? And do he and Guillen really understand the importance of OBP (despite some lip-service to OBP on occasion), or does 70 steals alone just get them giddy? (and Guillen clearly never understood the value of taking walks and getting on base as a player).
Answers to those questions will give me an idea of what to expect from this bunch in the future; and looking at the past gives us an idea as well - which is the point of bringing up old trades- not to beat on them, but to provide insight into what to expect.

Ol' No. 2
12-13-2004, 11:42 PM
How is that the real question? The deal wasnt Reed for Posednik, nor did he make that trade intending to get him this year. Reed was given up for a solid pitcher, and in hindsite to me, looks to be a good trade, the way the market has gone. I would say people need to get over Reed being traded, but there are people here who still havent gotten over Fogg, Wells and Lowe being traded :rolleyes:And it just KILLED me when they let Nellie Fox go in 1964. Cheap and stupid.

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:43 PM
How is that the real question?
Does KW value 70 steals more than the .400 on base percentage that Reed is capable of?

ondafarm
12-13-2004, 11:43 PM
I'm pretty sure Seattle wanted Olivo+Crede but accepted Olivo+Reed. Obviously in hindsight Crede would have been better to deal, but at the time trading 2 starters from a team that was on a real roll and didn't really have a need for an OF (but did for a 3B) wasn't IMO a smart move.
I'm pretty sure that Seattle insisted on Reed and wanted Crede or Olivo to make it worth Garcia. That's what the Japanese all tell me. (Seattle is the AL team most likely to take scouting reports from Japanese scouts seriously.)

Flight #24
12-13-2004, 11:44 PM
The real question to me is does Williams believe, as he seems to, that he got equal player value in return for Lee? And do he and Guillen really understand the importance of OBP (despite some lip-service to OBP on occasion), or does 70 steals alone just get them giddy? (and Guillen clearly never understood the value of taking walks and getting on base as a player).
Answers to those questions will give me an idea of what to expect from this bunch in the future; and looking at the past gives us an idea as well - which is the point of bringing up old trades- not to beat on them, but to provide insight into what to expect.
I doubt it, but of course he's going to talk up the guy he traded for. The $$$ is a key.

Mickster
12-13-2004, 11:45 PM
My initial recation was Lee for Podsednik? What???

HOWEVER before passing final approval or condemnation you have to wait to see what else Williams has up his sleeve.

IF the Sox use the five million and get another starting pitcher like a Clement or Perez or if they use the money to get another quality bullpen arm and a second basemen then this was not a bad deal.

It's like when Roland Hemond remade the team overnight in the winter of 1970. For every Sox player traded, he tried to get two or three competent players to fill holes.

IF however the Sox do nothing and take that money and deposit it in Uncle Jerry's ever increasing bank account, then this deal was a White Flag Trade only in December instead of July.

We will simply have to wait and see.

Lip
I can't believe I am saying this but......Lip, I agree with you. There, I said it!

FarWestChicago
12-13-2004, 11:46 PM
Does KW value 70 steals more than the .400 on base percentage that Reed is capable of?Dude, there is plenty to rant about without bringing up old, unrelated news. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

pearso66
12-13-2004, 11:46 PM
Does KW value 70 steals more than the .400 on base percentage that Reed is capable of?

but that doesnt answer my question to you. He did not make the trade last yera knowing he was gonna get posednik, so this has nothing to do on whether he thinks Posednik is better than Reed. Maybe he thinks Reed is the 3rd best out of Reed, Anderson and Sweeney, and thought he shoudl get something for him while his value was high, just like he didnt do with Rauch and Borchard. Reed isnt Guaranteed to have a .400 OBP, while Posednik already showed he can get .370, and also steal 70 bases.

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:47 PM
The real question to me is does Williams believe, as he seems to, that he got equal player value in return for Lee? And do he and Guillen really understand the importance of OBP (despite some lip-service to OBP on occasion), or does 70 steals alone just get them giddy? (and Guillen clearly never understood the value of taking walks and getting on base as a player).
Answers to those questions will give me an idea of what to expect from this bunch in the future; and looking at the past gives us an idea as well - which is the point of bringing up old trades- not to beat on them, but to provide insight into what to expect.
Well said!

A. Cavatica
12-13-2004, 11:48 PM
Posednik already showed he can get .370
And he also showed he can get .311, or whatever it was this year.

Tragg
12-13-2004, 11:50 PM
It's like when Roland Hemond remade the team overnight in the winter of 1970. For every Sox player traded, he tried to get two or three competent players to fill holes.

IF however the Sox do nothing and take that money and deposit it in Uncle Jerry's ever increasing bank account, then this deal was a White Flag Trade only in December instead of July.

We will simply have to wait and see.

LipInteresting comparison; however, Hemond was dealing from a 56 Win 106 Loss deck; he got those servicable players and built us into a .500 ballclub. It was Dick Allen, who had one of the most amazing offensive runs I still have ever seen in my life considering the era, that made us a contender for 1 1/4 years.
And when Dick was done, we were back to wins in the 60s for the next 10 seasons, with the sole exception being the Zisk/Solderholm year of the late 1970s

MeanFish
12-13-2004, 11:50 PM
You're looking at it the wrong way. Maybe he looked at our farm system, saw no pitching, thought to himself "I'm gonna get me some pitching, because that's what our team is missing" and traded from our farm system's strength, being OF. That's smart. Seattle probably weighed Reed as more valuable than Anderson or Sweeney, and when you're talking about Freddy freaking Garcia, you don't lowball on prospects if the only ML'er you're offering up is a AAAA catcher with a lot of "upside."

We still have Anderson and Sweeney. We've got Freddy Garcia too. Our ML club is currently stacked at OF. WE'RE SET FOR OUTFIELD.

Actually, our outfield might be the best overall OF in the league, fielding considered.

pearso66
12-13-2004, 11:51 PM
And he also showed he can get .311, or whatever it was this year.

I realize that, but I was just stating that he's shown he can get a .370 over a year, while Reed hasn't proved he can have a .400 OBP like you seem to guarantee

kermittheefrog
12-13-2004, 11:59 PM
There was a time when I'd write paragraph after paragraph about how horrible this deal was. Now I give a few sentences to express my discontent. This franchise is hopeless. *sigh*

Bucktown
12-14-2004, 12:11 AM
This is a great trade...for Milwaukee. I truly believe that the Brewers will have a better team than the Sox next year. I guess this will save me several thousands of miles of driving. So, why am I not happy?

idseer
12-14-2004, 12:32 AM
i'm getting this late but would like to comment anyway. ive only read the first page of responses so no doubt i will be repeating many others' words here.
it's apparent by the poll most here like this trade, and after the initial shock, i think it's not too bad myself.
we DO have to hope sp isn't a one year wonder. he's not young and i doubt he will improve in the speed dept, but if he can give us 3 or 4 years of it i'd be content. if vizcaino truly has gotten over his arm injury he would seem to really help fix the bp problem. i hate if's, but there's more to the deal. the extra money will no doubt go toward another starter (not sure why you're so worried it won't phg). they knock off 6 million and the budget should remain the same so it should go somewhere as opposed to jr's pocket. he'd have a VERY hard time explaining why the budget was trimmed by an extra 6 mil. throw in the player to be named and all this for lee looks pretty good to me. as a few have said, we NEEDED to make a change (without creating more holes) and it appears we did that.
i've been saying for a time now that the sox won't compete next year. well, i feel that with the right starter added (WITHOUT subtracting any other starters) maybe we stand a chance in this division. we still need some 'ifs' to come thru like crede delivering and uribe and whoever to hold there own up the middle, but it's not as bad as it's looked up till now.
i really was a lee fan but i also never felt he was all that clutch (just an impression). he could still go on to a great career but that's a chance you have to take once in a while. at least trading him didn't leave us with a hole in left as some other suggested trades would have.

lost lee in left
gained pod in left (also gaining a legit leadoff man and a serious base threat)
gained a decent bp arm
gained a 3 or 4 starter (most likely)
gained a bonus surprise (player to be named)
gained momentum toward becoming a more exciting sox-like team

i'm happy with this deal.

fquaye149
12-14-2004, 12:33 AM
This is a great trade...for Milwaukee. I truly believe that the Brewers will have a better team than the Sox next year. I guess this will save me several thousands of miles of driving. So, why am I not happy?
good one.

fquaye149
12-14-2004, 12:39 AM
the extra money will no doubt go toward another starter (not sure why you're so worried it won't phg)
There is very good reason to be worried it won't:

There simply aren't many available pitchers on the market, and those that are are asking perhaps more than we have determined them to be worth.

Having said that: if you are of the opinion that we weren't going to get a starting pitcher anyway, why would you be so vehemently opposed to this deal? Were we going to win something WITH carlos instead of Pod, and a weaker bullpen all the while having no 5th starter?

So what we did is gave us a fighting chance to sign a fifth (or better) starter...as opposed to the slim to none we had before while downgrading in the outfield in power and obp...upgrading the lineup in speed and (debatably) defense and strengthening the bullpen.

That's why I think this is a quality deal even if we don't sign a pitcher - we weren't going to contend anyway if we didn't sign a pitcher and it's TOUGH to sign a solid pitcher in this market. Here we are saying, "we'll make some sacrifices in the lineup and modify our style of ball to make the effort to be a strong pitching ballclub."

Sure, it probably won't work...but even if we hadn't made the move would we have won the division on the back of el caballo?

jabrch
12-14-2004, 12:45 AM
Does KW value 70 steals more than the .400 on base percentage that Reed is capable of?


How bout the .379 OBP that Podsednik actually has had at the MLB level rather than the capabilities of Jeremy Reed?

idseer
12-14-2004, 12:55 AM
There is very good reason to be worried it won't:

There simply aren't many available pitchers on the market, and those that are are asking perhaps more than we have determined them to be worth.


very true. but i feel kw really wants that starter and will figure out a way to get him. even coming up with a .500 pitcher (or .400 for that matter) would be an important addition. what did our 5th starters do last year? .... 1 win?
but i'm thinking he's looking for better than that.
hey, all we can do is sit back and wait for that last shoe to fall, huh? :smile:

CHISOXFAN13
12-14-2004, 12:58 AM
Who is going to you know HIT for this team? If you spend Lee's savings on Perez that means $33M on a starting staff that isn't nearly good enough for the putrid offense that will be supporting it.
The Sox have lost 81 homers from last year's team that hit 261. Dye will hit as many, if not more than Maggs would have, so I'm not sure what you are talking about frankly.

ilsox7
12-14-2004, 12:59 AM
very true. but i feel kw really wants that starter and will figure out a way to get him. even coming up with a .500 pitcher (or .400 for that matter) would be an important addition. what did our 5th starters do last year? .... 1 win?
but i'm thinking he's looking for better than that.
hey, all we can do is sit back and wait for that last shoe to fall, huh? :smile: All of the circumstantial evidence points to Clement.

KW was "running" to JR's office for approval...I don't think JR would have to approve a pay cut b/c it's part of his normal behavior.

Clement was rumored to sign with Anaheim this weekend yet all of a sudden a "new team" entered the picture.

Clement said tonight he loves Chicago and would be open to pitching for the Sox.

Now, I'm not saying it is going to happen. But there are a lot of things leading to this happening soon. If it does, it makes this trade solid. If KW sits on the money, he's a moron. You don't make a trade like this unless YOU ARE CERTAIN you can lock up the FA with the cash savings. We'll know in a few days!

Chrisaway
12-14-2004, 01:03 AM
Well goodbye Carlos Lee. You've given us many great memories here in Chi. I wish you the best in Milwaukee. :whiner:

Tragg
12-14-2004, 01:04 AM
You don't make a trade like this unless YOU ARE CERTAIN you can lock up the FA with the cash savings. We'll know in a few days!
Exactly

TheBull19
12-14-2004, 01:05 AM
I can't believe that people the last few years expected the sox to win the division despite what was a terribly thin pitching staff, and now that we have one of the best, most people seem to think the sox have no chance.

ChrisSnopek4Life
12-14-2004, 01:08 AM
This is Kenny Williams last shot at an offseason with the Sox. If the Sox don't win next year, he will be gone. He better pull a rabbit out of his hat because I don't see the sox getting Clement, because there's too many other teams going after him, who will overpay for him. This trade looks alright, right now, but he Kenny better be working on something great to do with that money.

Tragg
12-14-2004, 01:08 AM
I can't believe that people the last few years expected the sox to win the division despite what was a terribly thin pitching staff, and now that we have one of the best, most people think the sox have no chance.One of the best with Garland at 4 and Grilli/Shoenweis at 5?

faneidde
12-14-2004, 01:10 AM
For everyone opposed to this trade, where was the team going before the trade? 2nd place at best, most likely 3rd at worst. If this trade backfires, we could finish 4th, but if it works we could finish 1st if we get Clement or Perez. I am not exaclty thrilled about it, but I am glad that the organization at least realized that the team as it was had ZERO chance to win this year.

CHISOXFAN13
12-14-2004, 01:11 AM
One of the best with Garland at 4 and Grilli/Shoenweis at 5?
Bullpen is looking awfully strong right now, however. If KW does land a starter soon, then it's hard to argue with this pitching staff being the best it has been in 11 years.

Tragg
12-14-2004, 01:15 AM
For everyone opposed to this trade, where was the team going before the trade? 2nd place at best, most likely 3rd at worst. If this trade backfires, we could finish 4th, but if it works we could finish 1st if we get Clement or Perez. I am not exaclty thrilled about it, but I am glad that the organization at least realized that the team as it was had ZERO chance to win this year.
If we take the money and add a pitcher, it could do that.
If we don't, we're left with Lee for Pods and a middle reliever, which doesn't improve this club in the least.

TheBull19
12-14-2004, 01:18 AM
One of the best with Garland at 4 and Grilli/Shoenweis at 5?
Which teams have a better no. 4 pitcher than Garland?

Chrisaway
12-14-2004, 01:28 AM
For everyone opposed to this trade, where was the team going before the trade? 2nd place at best, most likely 3rd at worst. If this trade backfires, we could finish 4th, but if it works we could finish 1st if we get Clement or Perez. I am not exaclty thrilled about it, but I am glad that the organization at least realized that the team as it was had ZERO chance to win this year.
Im not unhappy with the trade. Im just unhappy that I no longer get to see Carlos Lee in a Sox uni. Hopefully Scott makes this offense more consistent and KW uses the extra $$$ to fill out our rotation.

MikeKreevich
12-14-2004, 01:41 AM
I hate this trade. The Cell is a homerun hitters park and the Sox are attempting to become a little ball team. I think it is going to be a tough year. I don't care how good your pitching is, you have got to score some runs. Maggs gone, Jose gone, Carlos gone, and Frank a big maybe. Good pitch (we hope), no hit, you lose.

soltrain21
12-14-2004, 01:44 AM
I hate this trade. The Cell is a homerun hitters park and the Sox are attempting to become a little ball team. I think it is going to be a tough year. I don't care how good your pitching is, you have got to score some runs. Maggs gone, Jose gone, Carlos gone, and Frank a big maybe. Good pitch (we hope), no hit, you lose.

The Twins don't even come close to hitting as many homeruns as we do, but they seem to constantly beat us. Having Scotty P on the basepaths will be a heck of a lot of fun. I keep thinking about the Zambrano/Timo exchange of last year...except happening a whole lot more.

JB98
12-14-2004, 02:03 AM
I hate this trade. The Cell is a homerun hitters park and the Sox are attempting to become a little ball team. I think it is going to be a tough year. I don't care how good your pitching is, you have got to score some runs. Maggs gone, Jose gone, Carlos gone, and Frank a big maybe. Good pitch (we hope), no hit, you lose.
Well said. Our middle of the order now contains three injury-prone players (Thomas, Dye and Everett) and PK. We better pray they all stay healthy and have big years. Not to mention, we have to pray Rowand and Uribe duplicate what they did last season. And we have to pray Joe Crede gets a clue.

We've got a lot of praying to do, my friends. I hate small ball. By August, I'm sure everyone on WSI will hate it too.

ilsox7
12-14-2004, 02:05 AM
We've got a lot of praying to do, my friends. I hate small ball. By August, I'm sure everyone on WSI will hate it too.
Where exactly did "Sit back and wait for HR's ball" get us?

MUsoxfan
12-14-2004, 02:25 AM
Where exactly did "Sit back and wait for HR's ball" get us?

I agree. We as White Sox fans have seen that movie time and time again over the past few years.

Nellie_Fox
12-14-2004, 02:28 AM
I hate small ball. By August, I'm sure everyone on WSI will hate it too.You will be hard pressed to get everyone on WSI to agree on much of anything.

I like small ball. The only White Sox World Series team I've seen in my lifetime was a small ball team. I have fond memories of speed, pitching, and defense.

Jjav829
12-14-2004, 02:51 AM
Well, here's my thoughts. This may get long, but what the hell, after reading 500 posts or so in the past hour, I have a lot to say...

This trade gives me some mixed emotions. I haven't really had a favorite player on the Sox in a few years. I always liked Maggs, and he was my favorite player by default. Lee was always sort of my second favorite player. With that said, it's sort of tough to see two of your favorite players leave a team in the same offseason. That said, I'm all about winning. I've always said that no one is untouchable and that I have no problem seeing anyone traded if the deal is right.

I, like most others, fall in to the line of thinking that this is a good move IF if the money saved is spent on other players. $6 million is a decent amount to work with. I believe it was ilsox who detailed my exact thoughts on why Clement seems workable. If I had to guess, I'd say the situation worked out something like this.

Clement started the offseason very interested in the White Sox, being that he and his wife just had a child and both love the city. He figured the Sox would pursue him and the interest was definitely mutual. Assuming the money was right, he was thinking the Sox might be where he ends up. Meanwhile, the Sox plan on being able to acquire him for something in the $4-5 million a year range. But as Kris Benson blows up the market, the Sox find a situation where they can't much afford Clement. They move on to acquire Dye and Hermanson, figuring they will have to settle for a lower tier pitcher. But Kenny decides that the rest of the pitchers aren't worth the money, and it may be worth it to overpay a guy like Clement rather than chasing a Jose Lima type. He decides to shop Lee/Konerko for pitching first, but decides that if he can't get a pitcher for them, he'll try to get some cheap players and pursue a free agent pitcher. The Sox meet with Clement and his agent, Barry Axelrod, and find out that Clement is still very interested in the White Sox. Kenny finds a match with the Brewers who are willing to give him a couple cheap players that fill holes on the Sox. The main piece, Scott Podsednik, meets Kenny's goal of finding more team speed, and Kenny decides it is well worth the risk of taking a shot on Scotty Pods and hoping he can get back near his 2003 form. The addition of Vizcaino just makes the trade sweeter. He now finds out the Brewers are willing to do this, and realizes the Sox are players in the Clement sweepstakes. He goes running to find JR to let JR know that they need to prepare to offer Clement a contract. Kenny contacts Barry Axelrod and lets him know the Sox are back in the race for Clement. Mystery team A appears and continues to delay Clement's signing with the Angels. Clement goes on a Chicago radio station and declares his interest in the Sox, while also talking about a mystery, dare I say "under the radar" team that has popped up. I realize that's a lot of speculation, but it sounds feasible.

Look, I don't like losing Lee. But I'm the same person who has complained that the Sox lack balance offensively. I believe it building an offense, not a core of 9 mashers. I believe that you need 3-4 30 HR types. We have those in Frank/Everett, Konerko, and Dye. I also believe you need a couple guys at the top of the order who can get on-base, run, bunt, and do the little things. We now have those in Scotty Pods and Rowand. To me, that is the makings of a solid 1-5. I know they have questions and that really worries me. Will Frank be healthy? Will Everett be in shape? Can Podsednik bounce back and get over his sophomore slump? There are questions here. But I think there is a basis for a solid offense. Hopefully it all pans out.

ilsox7
12-14-2004, 02:56 AM
Well, here's my thoughts. This may get long, but what the hell, after reading 500 posts or so in the past hour, I have a lot to say...

This trade gives me some mixed emotions. I haven't really had a favorite player on the Sox in a few years. I always liked Maggs, and he was my favorite player be default. Lee was always sort of my second favorite player. With that said, it's sort of tough to see two of your favorite players leave a team in the same offseason. That said, I'm all about winning. I've always said that no one is untouchable and that I have no problem seeing anyone traded if the deal is right.

I, like most others, fall in to the line of thinking that this is a good move IF if the money saved is spent on other players. $6 million is a decent amount to work with. I believe it was ilsox who detailed my exact thoughts on why Clement seems workable. If I had to guess, I'd say the situation worked out something like this.

Clement started the offseason very interested in the White Sox, being that he and his wife just had a child and both love the city. He figured the Sox would pursue him and the interest was definitely mutual. Assuming the money was right, he was thinking the Sox might be where he ends up. The Sox plan on being able to acquire him for something in the $4-5 million a year range. But as Kris Benson blows up the market, the Sox find a situation where they can't much afford Clement. They move on to acquire Dye and Hermanson, figuring they will have to settle for a lower tier pitcher. But Kenny decides that the rest of the pitchers aren't worth the money, and it may be worth it to overpay a guy like Clement rather than chasing a Jose Lima type. He decides to shop Lee/Konerko for pitching first, but decides that if no can't get a pitcher for them, he'll try to get some cheap players and pursue a free agent pitcher. The Sox meet with Clement and his agent, Barry Axelrod, and find out that Clement is still very interested in the White Sox. Kenny finds a match with the Brewers who are willing to give him a couple cheap players that fill holes on the Sox. The main piece, Scott Podsednik, meets Kenny's goal of finding more team speed, and Kenny decides it is well worth the risk of taking a shot on Scotty Pods and hoping he can get back near his 2003 form. The addition of Vizcaino just makes the trade sweeter. He now finds out the Brewers are willing to do this, and realizes the Sox are players in the Clement sweepstakes. He goes running to find JR to let JR know that they need to prepare to offer Clement a contract. Kenny contacts Barry Axelrod and lets him know the Sox are back in the race for Clement. Mystery team A appears and continues to delay Clement's signing with the Angels. Clement goes on a Chicago radio station and declares his interest in the Sox, while also talking about a mystery, dare I say "under the radar" team that has popped up. I realize that's a lot of speculation, but it sounds feasible.

Look, I don't like losing Lee. But I'm the same person who has complained that the Sox lack balance offensively. I believe it building an offense, not a core of 9 mashers. I believe that you need 3-4 30 HR types. We have those in Frank/Everett, Konerko, and Dye. I also believe you need a couple guys at the top of the order who can get on-base, run, bunt, and do the little things. We know have those in Scotty Pods and Rowand. To me, that is the makings of a solid 1-5. I know they have questions and that really worries me. Will Frank be healthy? Will Everett be in shape? Can Podsednik bounce back and get over his sophomore slump? There are questions here. But I think there is a basis for a solid offense. Hopefully it all pans out.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your Clement scenario. I just hope and pray we sign him. If we do, I think we go into this season with hope. Do we have a few question marks? Of course. But with a solid pitching staff and the ability to scrath out a few runs here and there when our big hitters go into a slump makes me feel a lot better.

And to dream a little...a top 3 of MB, FG, and Clement at least gives us a fighting chance in a playoff series...

MUsoxfan
12-14-2004, 02:57 AM
Well, here's my thoughts. This may get long, but what the hell, after reading 500 posts or so in the past hour, I have a lot to say...

This trade gives me some mixed emotions. I haven't really had a favorite player on the Sox in a few years. I always liked Maggs, and he was my favorite player be default. Lee was always sort of my second favorite player. With that said, it's sort of tough to see two of your favorite players leave a team in the same offseason. That said, I'm all about winning. I've always said that no one is untouchable and that I have no problem seeing anyone traded if the deal is right.

I, like most others, fall in to the line of thinking that this is a good move IF if the money saved is spent on other players. $6 million is a decent amount to work with. I believe it was ilsox who detailed my exact thoughts on why Clement seems workable. If I had to guess, I'd say the situation worked out something like this.

Clement started the offseason very interested in the White Sox, being that he and his wife just had a child and both love the city. He figured the Sox would pursue him and the interest was definitely mutual. Assuming the money was right, he was thinking the Sox might be where he ends up. The Sox plan on being able to acquire him for something in the $4-5 million a year range. But as Kris Benson blows up the market, the Sox find a situation where they can't much afford Clement. They move on to acquire Dye and Hermanson, figuring they will have to settle for a lower tier pitcher. But Kenny decides that the rest of the pitchers aren't worth the money, and it may be worth it to overpay a guy like Clement rather than chasing a Jose Lima type. He decides to shop Lee/Konerko for pitching first, but decides that if no can't get a pitcher for them, he'll try to get some cheap players and pursue a free agent pitcher. The Sox meet with Clement and his agent, Barry Axelrod, and find out that Clement is still very interested in the White Sox. Kenny finds a match with the Brewers who are willing to give him a couple cheap players that fill holes on the Sox. The main piece, Scott Podsednik, meets Kenny's goal of finding more team speed, and Kenny decides it is well worth the risk of taking a shot on Scotty Pods and hoping he can get back near his 2003 form. The addition of Vizcaino just makes the trade sweeter. He now finds out the Brewers are willing to do this, and realizes the Sox are players in the Clement sweepstakes. He goes running to find JR to let JR know that they need to prepare to offer Clement a contract. Kenny contacts Barry Axelrod and lets him know the Sox are back in the race for Clement. Mystery team A appears and continues to delay Clement's signing with the Angels. Clement goes on a Chicago radio station and declares his interest in the Sox, while also talking about a mystery, dare I say "under the radar" team that has popped up. I realize that's a lot of speculation, but it sounds feasible.

Look, I don't like losing Lee. But I'm the same person who has complained that the Sox lack balance offensively. I believe it building an offense, not a core of 9 mashers. I believe that you need 3-4 30 HR types. We have those in Frank/Everett, Konerko, and Dye. I also believe you need a couple guys at the top of the order who can get on-base, run, bunt, and do the little things. We know have those in Scotty Pods and Rowand. To me, that is the makings of a solid 1-5. I know they have questions and that really worries me. Will Frank be healthy? Will Everett be in shape? Can Podsednik bounce back and get over his sophomore slump? There are questions here. But I think there is a basis for a solid offense. Hopefully it all pans out.

Umm....I agree with everything in that post. That might be the first time I've ever agreed with everything in a post that long.

ilsox7
12-14-2004, 03:05 AM
Umm....I agree with everything in that post. That might be the first time I've ever agreed with everything in a post that long.
Unless of course I wrote a detailed essay as to why MU Bball is better than UIUC and Dwyane Wade is the best thing since sliced bread. :)