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View Full Version : Lineup without Konerko and Lee


chisoxmike
12-12-2004, 12:05 PM
If we trade Lee and Konerko for starting pitching, our rotation will be one of the best in baseball. (Take that Gammons) But now look at our lineup. There's nothing. I highly doubt Thomas is going to be back on opening day, even with Thomas here its scary. Someone tell me I'm worng.

Harris 2B
Rowand CF
Dye RF
Evertte LF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Borchard DH
Crede 3B
Davis/Burke C

PaleHoseGeorge
12-12-2004, 12:09 PM
That line up loses 90 games, fifth starter "solution" or not.

nitetrain8601
12-12-2004, 12:12 PM
But it's highly unprobable we're giving up both.

Brian26
12-12-2004, 12:12 PM
That line up loses 90 games, fifth starter "solution" or not.
Yeah, that offense looks similar to the '88/'89 White Sox. Not good.

chisoxmike
12-12-2004, 12:12 PM
That line up loses 90 games, fifth starter "solution" or not.
My point exactly.

johnny_mostil
12-12-2004, 12:12 PM
If we trade Lee and Konerko for starting pitching, our rotation will be one of the best in baseball. (Take that Gammons) But now look at our lineup. There's nothing. I highly doubt Thomas is going to be back on opening day, even with Thomas here its scary. Someone tell me I'm worng.

Harris 2B
Rowand CF
Dye RF
Evertte LF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Borchard DH
Crede 3B
Davis/Burke C
You're wrong. Other shoes would drop.

idseer
12-12-2004, 12:19 PM
You're wrong. Other shoes would drop. and what does that mean?

Brian26
12-12-2004, 12:19 PM
You're wrong. Other shoes would drop.
Meaning KW would try to pick up more offense too?

Delgado?

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2004, 12:21 PM
If we trade Lee and Konerko for starting pitching, our rotation will be one of the best in baseball. (Take that Gammons) But now look at our lineup. There's nothing. I highly doubt Thomas is going to be back on opening day, even with Thomas here its scary. Someone tell me I'm worng.

Harris 2B
Rowand CF
Dye RF
Evertte LF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Borchard DH
Crede 3B
Davis/Burke CYou project Borchard as DH and wonder why you have a weak lineup? Don't you think that's just a tad unrealistic?

FightingBillini
12-12-2004, 12:22 PM
Im guessing sure that KW wouldnt let go of both Konerko and Lee unless he was sure he could sign Delgado.

chisoxmike
12-12-2004, 12:24 PM
You project Borchard as DH and wonder why you have a weak lineup? Don't you think that's just a tad unrealistic?
Who else will DH if Thomas isn't ready?

Tragg
12-12-2004, 12:50 PM
If we trade Lee and Konerko for starting pitching, our rotation will be one of the best in baseball. (Take that Gammons) But now look at our lineup. There's nothing. I highly doubt Thomas is going to be back on opening day, even with Thomas here its scary. Someone tell me I'm worng.

Harris 2B
Rowand CF
Dye RF
Evertte LF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Borchard DH
Crede 3B
Davis/Burke C
That's a horrible lineup; Lord, bring us a lead-off hitter for Christmas

SoxxoS
12-12-2004, 12:52 PM
If Joe Borchard is our opening day DH...I think there is a clause in MLB that starting someone that bad at DH means an automatic move of the team to Tibet.

robertks61
12-12-2004, 02:05 PM
Saving lot's of $$$ on fireworks!

MRKARNO
12-12-2004, 03:35 PM
If you replace Borchard with Thomas, the lineup actually isnt that bad.

fquaye149
12-12-2004, 03:38 PM
can we see this thread 1000 more times? because i think only then will i get the message the thread starters are trying to convey. The first 1000 times I've seen this thread posted here have not quite sunk in yet

Slow Mike
12-12-2004, 03:56 PM
If we trade Lee and Konerko for starting pitching, our rotation will be one of the best in baseball. (Take that Gammons) But now look at our lineup. There's nothing. I highly doubt Thomas is going to be back on opening day, even with Thomas here its scary. Someone tell me I'm worng.

Harris 2B
Rowand CF
Dye RF
Evertte LF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Borchard DH
Crede 3B
Davis/Burke C
Borchard would play RF before Everett, Everett being the DH.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-12-2004, 04:12 PM
If you replace Borchard with Thomas, the lineup actually isnt that bad.
Not bad?
:?:

With a healthy Thomas that line up loses 80 games. Unhealthy, 85 games.

In other words, with Thomas we're good enough to be first loser in a crappy division -- again.

OEO Magglio
12-12-2004, 04:15 PM
Not bad?
:?:

With a healthy Thomas that line up loses 80 games. Unhealthy, 85 games.

In other words, with Thomas we're good enough to be first loser in a crappy division -- again.
Not neccesarily true. If the sox trade both Pauly and Carlos(which won't happen) the sox would have some pretty darn good pitching coming their way.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-12-2004, 04:18 PM
Not neccesarily true. If the sox trade both Pauly and Carlos(which won't happen) the sox would have some pretty darn good pitching coming their way. Fifth starter "solution" or not, 80-85 losses depending on Frank's health.

And no, I don't think trading both Konerko and Lee will fix our chronic 5th starter problem... that's how many holes we have to fill now. We need to sign a pitcher, not trade talent.
:mad:

SoxFan76
12-12-2004, 04:26 PM
I don't think it's THAT bad. The thing is we have to count on the younger guys improving. That means Willie and Crede need to step up. I'm going to say Harris hits .270 with a OBP of .360, and Crede hits .265. We all know Crede has power, it's just a matter of getting base hits along with those home runs.

I don't really have a problem with the Davis/Burke tandem either. Sure, an upgrade would be nice, but I'm not too upset with the fact that these two are the starting catchers.

I think Everett and Dye will have comeback seasons, each of them around the .280 mark with 85+ RBI a piece.

Uribe should have another solid year, but he needs to improve his consistency. Gload needs to prove that he can put together a full season. I don't think he will hit over .300, but .285-.290 seems realistic.

Hopefully Rowand improves on last year. He had a great year, but he needs to prove that 2004 wasn't a fluke.

Even with Frank missing time, I think he can hit around .275 with 30-35 HR and 100 RBIs.

So PHG, I definitely see where you're coming from. There is only one "true" power threat in the lineup. And we don't even know how much time he is going to miss yet. I think the run production needs to be spread out throughout the lineup. Instead of the 3-4-5 guys driving in all the runs, everybody in the lineup needs to drive them in. Of course that means the guys before them need to get on base. Having CLee and PK would definitely make things easier, but I don't think with that lineup that we should write off the season.

Then again I'm always too damn optimistic...

idseer
12-12-2004, 04:48 PM
I don't think it's THAT bad. The thing is we have to count on the younger guys improving. That means Willie and Crede need to step up. I'm going to say Harris hits .270 with a OBP of .360, and Crede hits .265. We all know Crede has power, it's just a matter of getting base hits along with those home runs.

I don't really have a problem with the Davis/Burke tandem either. Sure, an upgrade would be nice, but I'm not too upset with the fact that these two are the starting catchers.

I think Everett and Dye will have comeback seasons, each of them around the .280 mark with 85+ RBI a piece.

Uribe should have another solid year, but he needs to improve his consistency. Gload needs to prove that he can put together a full season. I don't think he will hit over .300, but .285-.290 seems realistic.

Hopefully Rowand improves on last year. He had a great year, but he needs to prove that 2004 wasn't a fluke.

Even with Frank missing time, I think he can hit around .275 with 30-35 HR and 100 RBIs.

So PHG, I definitely see where you're coming from. There is only one "true" power threat in the lineup. And we don't even know how much time he is going to miss yet. I think the run production needs to be spread out throughout the lineup. Instead of the 3-4-5 guys driving in all the runs, everybody in the lineup needs to drive them in. Of course that means the guys before them need to get on base. Having CLee and PK would definitely make things easier, but I don't think with that lineup that we should write off the season.

Then again I'm always too damn optimistic...
pick the worst teams every year and you'll find their wish list looks something like the above.

right now we have 15 positions to worry about (8 positions, 5 pitchers, dh, and relief). i feel comfortable with 5 so far (6 when thomas is in there). buehrle, garcia, lee, rowand and konerko (and rowand is questionable with only 1 good year under his belt).
that leaves 10 positions we have to HOPE will come thru for us. not one of them has done enough to warrant depending on them. i'll bet there are very few teams having that many questionmarks.

without additions sans subtractions we're not going to do much this coming season.

fquaye149
12-12-2004, 04:52 PM
Fifth starter "solution" or not, 80-85 losses depending on Frank's health.

And no, I don't think trading both Konerko and Lee will fix our chronic 5th starter problem... that's how many holes we have to fill now. We need to sign a pitcher, not trade talent.
:mad:
exactly which pitcher would you propose we sign....

clement - MAYBE....Hopefully...but beyond that, who is available? Millwood? Milton...who am I missing?

Mohoney
12-12-2004, 04:52 PM
That line up loses 90 games, fifth starter "solution" or not.
There is no way that a rotation of Hudson, Garcia, Buehrle, Vazquez, and Contreras loses more than 60 games. There is no way that this rotation wins less than 80 games. There is no way that they fail to log 1000+ combined innings.

In fact, I would be willing to go a step further and say that this rotation would finish at least 25 games over .500 and completes about 10-12 games just by themselves. Replacing all those 6 inning, 4 earned run "good" outings from Garland with a REAL SP in Hudson, replacing Contreras' 4th starter production with Vazquez, and replacing ZERO production from the 5th spot with Contreras, certainly looks like a significant upgrade from a staff that finished NEXT TO LAST in ERA and DEAD LAST in HR allowed.

Besides, I don't see that much of a power outage if these two guys leave. If we truly do play in Coors East, then shouldn't Dye and Everett be locks to produce at least 50 combined HRs? Shouldn't Rowand be a lock to hit 25? Hell, even Crede and Uribe hit over 20 apiece last year, so let's assume a combined 45 from them. Assume that Davis hits 10, and Frank Thomas only hits 30 because he misses time in April; we're talking about a total of roughly 160 from those 7 guys, and that includes lowball estimates for Thomas and Dye. Say Gload only hits 10-15 playing 1B and Willie doesn't hit any playing 2B. That puts us at 170-175 home runs from your everyday lineup. I think that a bench of Burke, Timo, Borchard, Valdez, and whatever backup 3B we sign (I'm just guessing that this will be done, but they might sign a backup 1B or middle infielder instead, or they might go with a 12th pitcher) could hit the 25-30 more needed to get to 200, and with every HR that Thomas hits over 30, the number needed from the bench goes down.

Hudson, Buehrle, and Garcia are, in my opinion, guaranteed locks to finish .600 or better, and Vazquez is a lock to finish over .500, too. Assuming Contreras can go .500 or better, we have a real chance to match up pitching-wise with the Twins and win some of these 2-1 and 3-2 games that we always seemed to lose to them in the past.

Everybody talks about the 5th starter hole. How about the 3rd starter hole named Jon Garland? If I have to give up Konerko and Lee to get Garland out of this organization's plans forever and get REAL PITCHING in the fold, I have to do it.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-12-2004, 04:59 PM
exactly which pitcher would you propose we sign....

clement - MAYBE....Hopefully...but beyond that, who is available? Millwood? Milton...who am I missing?
Boy, I wish I knew. Given the self-imposed restraints we're working with, I don't see any hope of signing anyone worth signing. Sucks to be a Sox Fan...
:(:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-12-2004, 05:01 PM
There is no way that a rotation of Hudson, Garcia, Buehrle, Vazquez, and Contreras loses more than 60 games....
Somebody pinch me... when did the Sox pick up Hudson and Vazquez???
:?:

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 05:08 PM
Somebody pinch me... when did the Sox pick up Hudson and Vazquez???
:?:
People are assuming that Vazquez and Hudson could both be acquired by giving up Konerko and Lee.

fquaye149
12-12-2004, 05:31 PM
Boy, I wish I knew. Given the self-imposed restraints we're working with, I don't see any hope of signing anyone worth signing. Sucks to be a Sox Fan...
:(:
then working within the realm of reality, wouldn't it be better to improve our rotation through trades than sit on our hands and hope konerko and lee can get us more than 81 wins with the help of say.....jason grilli???

Fredsox
12-12-2004, 05:54 PM
People are assuming that Vazquez and Hudson could both be acquired by giving up Konerko and Lee.According to Fox Sports and the Oakland Tribune Hudson is signing with the Dodgers. http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3240016 .

Additionally Clement is very close to signing with the Angels according to LA Times.

If we're gonna trade somebody for some stud #1 or #2 pitcher we'd better goet moving.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-12-2004, 06:44 PM
then working within the realm of reality, wouldn't it be better to improve our rotation through trades than sit on our hands and hope .....
Reality is for suckers.
:cool:

:reinsy
"Something better than 2nd place? Keep dreaming, suckers."

voodoochile
12-12-2004, 06:58 PM
Why would the Sox need to trade both to acquire one more starter?

chisoxmike
12-12-2004, 07:04 PM
Why would the Sox need to trade both to acquire one more starter?
Rumors are that the trades are Lee for Hudson, and Konerko and Garland for Vasquez.

voodoochile
12-12-2004, 07:10 PM
Rumors are that the trades are Lee for Hudson, and Konerko and Garland for Vasquez. That and $0.50 will get you a Tribune tomorrow.

If they trade both, I'll be shocked and Hudson's already off the market, so one less thing to worry about.

OEO Magglio
12-12-2004, 07:15 PM
That and $0.50 will get you a Tribune tomorrow.

If they trade both, I'll be shocked and Hudson's already off the market, so one less thing to worry about.
Hudson is not off the market yet. The dodgers trade is not official.

Soxfest
12-12-2004, 07:41 PM
Both will not go one or the other will be here.

idseer
12-12-2004, 07:42 PM
There is no way that a rotation of Hudson, Garcia, Buehrle, Vazquez, and Contreras loses more than 60 games. There is no way that this rotation wins less than 80 games. There is no way that they fail to log 1000+ combined innings.

In fact, I would be willing to go a step further and say that this rotation would finish at least 25 games over .500 and completes about 10-12 games just by themselves. Replacing all those 6 inning, 4 earned run "good" outings from Garland with a REAL SP in Hudson, replacing Contreras' 4th starter production with Vazquez, and replacing ZERO production from the 5th spot with Contreras, certainly looks like a significant upgrade from a staff that finished NEXT TO LAST in ERA and DEAD LAST in HR allowed.

Besides, I don't see that much of a power outage if these two guys leave. If we truly do play in Coors East, then shouldn't Dye and Everett be locks to produce at least 50 combined HRs? Shouldn't Rowand be a lock to hit 25? Hell, even Crede and Uribe hit over 20 apiece last year, so let's assume a combined 45 from them. Assume that Davis hits 10, and Frank Thomas only hits 30 because he misses time in April; we're talking about a total of roughly 160 from those 7 guys, and that includes lowball estimates for Thomas and Dye. Say Gload only hits 10-15 playing 1B and Willie doesn't hit any playing 2B. That puts us at 170-175 home runs from your everyday lineup. I think that a bench of Burke, Timo, Borchard, Valdez, and whatever backup 3B we sign (I'm just guessing that this will be done, but they might sign a backup 1B or middle infielder instead, or they might go with a 12th pitcher) could hit the 25-30 more needed to get to 200, and with every HR that Thomas hits over 30, the number needed from the bench goes down.

Hudson, Buehrle, and Garcia are, in my opinion, guaranteed locks to finish .600 or better, and Vazquez is a lock to finish over .500, too. Assuming Contreras can go .500 or better, we have a real chance to match up pitching-wise with the Twins and win some of these 2-1 and 3-2 games that we always seemed to lose to them in the past.

Everybody talks about the 5th starter hole. How about the 3rd starter hole named Jon Garland? If I have to give up Konerko and Lee to get Garland out of this organization's plans forever and get REAL PITCHING in the fold, I have to do it.
:rolleyes:
ASS U ME

so what you're saying is .... assuming everyone did real real well and assuming the pitcher all live up to your expectations and assuming no injuries to thomas again ............etc .......etc ............

there was an old everly brother's tune ...................... :cool:

OEO Magglio
12-12-2004, 07:59 PM
FWIW I'm listening to MLB radio from the winter meetings and they have some sports writer on from L.A.(I'll get his name shortly, I have to learn to listen better) and he says that Huddy to the dodgers isn't that close and that some baseball officials were laughing at how close the media was making this deal out to be. Like I said, take it fwiw.

Mohoney
12-12-2004, 11:18 PM
:rolleyes:
ASS U ME

so what you're saying is .... assuming everyone did real real well and assuming the pitcher all live up to your expectations and assuming no injuries to thomas again ............etc .......etc ............

there was an old everly brother's tune ...................... :cool:
Fine. Enjoy every one of Garland's 12 wins, then.

Sorry for wanting something a little better than that.

jordan23ventura
12-13-2004, 03:02 AM
Rumors are that the trades are Lee for Hudson, and Konerko and Garland for Vasquez.
Lee for Hudson makes sense.

Konerko + Garland for Vazquez + cash makes absolutely no sense, considering that you are opening a huge hole at 1B that can not be filled and only upgrading the 3rd spot in the rotation.

Now of course there will be those who will say 'but this frees up money to sign a FA pitcher.' Tell me, if a Vazquez trade went through, by the time it did there wouldn't be anyone left on the FA market that KW would be able to get to even break even on this. All that will be left is maybe a couple of Boras clients with huge pricetags and benchwarmers.