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View Full Version : Freddy Garcia on todays open market?...big bucks


hose
12-12-2004, 11:46 AM
KW's trade for Freddy Garcia received plenty of scrutiny at WSI. You could argue that KW overpaid to land Freddy , but if Kenny didn't trade for Garcia and had to bid for his services on this years open market I wonder if the 9 million per for 3 years would have been enough.

Carl Pavano is coming of a career year with a 18-8 record and a era of 3.00 and signed with the Yankees for around 39 million for 4 years. Carl has a lifetime record of 57-58 with a 4.21 era .

Russ Ortiz signed a 4 year 33 million contract with the D-backs. Ortiz does have great stuff but his high number of walks is alarming. Russ was 15-9 with a very high NL era of 4.13 Ortiz has a great winning career record , but outside of a injury to another pitcher the Braves would not have started him in the playoffs. Again another 4 year deal.

Going by what Pavano and Ortiz received I would think Freddy would have gotten a 4 year deal around $45 million or so.

Pitching is at a premium today , so anybody looking to get a #1,2,or even a 3 is going to pay a steep price.

Brian26
12-12-2004, 11:52 AM
No doubt about it, Kenny made a hell of a move in locking Garcia up so quickly and cheaply, relatively speaking. You have to give him credit for that.

johnny_mostil
12-12-2004, 11:55 AM
Going by what Pavano and Ortiz received I would think Freddy would have gotten a 4 year deal around $45 million or so.

Pitching is at a premium today , so anybody looking to get a #1,2,or even a 3 is going to pay a steep price.
... and not likely to get value for their money at all. Other than a handful of guys like Schilling and RJ, the other big bucks pitcher signings usually look horrible after three or four years. They're all one inning away from oblivion.

What will be really amusing is when the Diamondbacks default on all these enormous contracts and the union demands that OTHER owners pay Glaus and Ortiz.

OEO Magglio
12-12-2004, 12:06 PM
KW's trade for Freddy Garcia received plenty of scrutiny at WSI. You could argue that KW overpaid to land Freddy , but if Kenny didn't trade for Garcia and had to bid for his services on this years open market I wonder if the 9 million per for 3 years would have been enough.

Carl Pavano is coming of a career year with a 18-8 record and a era of 3.00 and signed with the Yankees for around 39 million for 4 years. Carl has a lifetime record of 57-58 with a 4.21 era .

Russ Ortiz signed a 4 year 33 million contract with the D-backs. Ortiz does have great stuff but his high number of walks is alarming. Russ was 15-9 with a very high NL era of 4.13 Ortiz has a great winning career record , but outside of a injury to another pitcher the Braves would not have started him in the playoffs. Again another 4 year deal.

Going by what Pavano and Ortiz received I would think Freddy would have gotten a 4 year deal around $45 million or so.

Pitching is at a premium today , so anybody looking to get a #1,2,or even a 3 is going to pay a steep price.

Freddy would have got atleast Pavano bucks if not more, imo.

nitetrain8601
12-12-2004, 12:27 PM
I think the Yankees would've overpaid for Freddy and given him a deal around 5 years 55 million.

Flight #24
12-12-2004, 12:29 PM
... and not likely to get value for their money at all. Other than a handful of guys like Schilling and RJ, the other big bucks pitcher signings usually look horrible after three or four years. They're all one inning away from oblivion.

What will be really amusing is when the Diamondbacks default on all these enormous contracts and the union demands that OTHER owners pay Glaus and Ortiz.
Normally, I'd agree with you. The problem is that so-called "mid-tier" starters are getting 7-8mil/yr, and Odalis Perez is said to be coming "cheaply" at 6-7mil.

at least for pitching, the market has moved so far upwards that I don't know if what used to be considered bad value can be considered that anymore. If you want someone halfway decent, you have to pony up $7mil+/yr. Otherwise, you have to either make trades for young/cheap guys, draft your own, or live with guys like Wilson Alvarez.

California Sox
12-12-2004, 01:17 PM
Freddy would have got at least Pavano bucks if not more, imo.
Are you crazy? Did you see Pavano pitch against the Sox? If Garcia looked that good for an entire start once, I might agree with you but... Garcia's a decent mid-tier starter who's been very up and down his entire career. Pavano is a guy who has been getting better and better. I think Pavano gets at least 2 mil/per more than Garcia on the open market, but we'll never know.

FightingBillini
12-12-2004, 01:27 PM
Are you crazy? Did you see Pavano pitch against the Sox? If Garcia looked that good for an entire start once, I might agree with you but... Garcia's a decent mid-tier starter who's been very up and down his entire career. Pavano is a guy who has been getting better and better. I think Pavano gets at least 2 mil/per more than Garcia on the open market, but we'll never know.
:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:
Saying Pavano is better than Garcia is arguable. If you want to say Garcia has been up and down his whole career, that is arguable too. But Pavano is coming off ONE good year in his whole career, so dont try to pass him off as a superstar just yet.

SoxxoS
12-12-2004, 01:51 PM
Are you crazy? Did you see Pavano pitch against the Sox? If Garcia looked that good for an entire start once, I might agree with you but... Garcia's a decent mid-tier starter who's been very up and down his entire career. Pavano is a guy who has been getting better and better. I think Pavano gets at least 2 mil/per more than Garcia on the open market, but we'll never know.
How many All-Star games did Pavano START in his career? Just wondering.

Garcia also had a pretty major ear problem that effected his balance the 2003 season. Other than that, he is pretty consistant.

Jerome
12-12-2004, 02:40 PM
KW's trade for Freddy Garcia received plenty of scrutiny at WSI. You could argue that KW overpaid to land Freddy , but if Kenny didn't trade for Garcia and had to bid for his services on this years open market I wonder if the 9 million per for 3 years would have been enough.

Carl Pavano is coming of a career year with a 18-8 record and a era of 3.00 and signed with the Yankees for around 39 million for 4 years. Carl has a lifetime record of 57-58 with a 4.21 era .

Russ Ortiz signed a 4 year 33 million contract with the D-backs. Ortiz does have great stuff but his high number of walks is alarming. Russ was 15-9 with a very high NL era of 4.13 Ortiz has a great winning career record , but outside of a injury to another pitcher the Braves would not have started him in the playoffs. Again another 4 year deal.

Going by what Pavano and Ortiz received I would think Freddy would have gotten a 4 year deal around $45 million or so.

Pitching is at a premium today , so anybody looking to get a #1,2,or even a 3 is going to pay a steep price.

I agree, Freddy would have gotten a much bigger contract on the open market, but it brings up a disturbing question...

Instead of overpaying with money, we overpayed with talent?

Personally, now I'm glad the trade was made b/c overpaying in a trade is the only way we'll ever get a top starter like Freddy on the South Side. Because we sure won't land a #1 or 2 starter through free agency.

If the only way KW can aquire pitching is by trade (Colon, Freddy), than more often than not I think we should make the move. (Except if said pitcher is 41 years old.)

Hopefully we can actually have a ace pitcher who comes up in our system so all these trades aren't needed.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 02:41 PM
If Reed were still with the Sox he could have been the centerpiece in a deal for Hudson and they'd have the money to sign him to a 4/$40M extension.

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 02:52 PM
If Reed were still with the Sox he could have been the centerpiece in a deal for Hudson and they'd have the money to sign him to a 4/$40M extension.:bs:
Hudson will get more money than that.

Jabroni
12-12-2004, 03:47 PM
If Reed were still with the Sox he could have been the centerpiece in a deal for Hudson and they'd have the money to sign him to a 4/$40M extension.:rolleyes:

Hudson wants $12 to $13 million a year.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 04:03 PM
:rolleyes:

Hudson wants $12 to $13 million a year.
Okay, then you offer him 4/$44-46M extension before he hits the market.

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 04:08 PM
Okay, then you offer him 4/$44-46M extension before he hits the market.Simple math.
4*($12-13 million)= $48-52 million, not $44-46 million. :rolleyes:

Flight #24
12-12-2004, 04:10 PM
Okay, then you offer him 4/$44-46M extension before he hits the market.
And he accepts that because......why?

He wants $12-13mil. That means he DOESN'T want $11mil.

Make up a few more scenarios with no basis in fact or reason so that you can think you've found a way to slam KW. Or stop channeling the spirit of habibharu/shagar.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 04:14 PM
Simple math.
4*($12-13 million)= $48-52 million, not $44-46 million. :rolleyes:
Good point.

I could be wrong, but if he was offered a $46M extension before the season I think there's a decent chance he'd accept the security over an extra $2-6M.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 04:15 PM
And he accepts that because......why?

He wants $12-13mil. That means he DOESN'T want $11mil.

Make up a few more scenarios with no basis in fact or reason so that you can think you've found a way to slam KW. Or stop channeling the spirit of habibharu/shagar.
Then give him $48M.

nitetrain8601
12-12-2004, 04:20 PM
Then give him $48M.It seems to me that if the Sox did that then you would complain about how we should've went after Garcia in a trade and locked him up for less money and spend the rest on position players. It seems as if you're a bj2b poster.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 04:25 PM
It seems to me that if the Sox did that then you would complain about how we should've went after Garcia in a trade and locked him up for less money and spend the rest on position players. It seems as if you're a bj2b poster is seems.
Absolutely not. I believe with as many flyballs as Garcia gives up he's a bad fit at the Cell.

OEO Magglio
12-12-2004, 04:28 PM
Okay, then you offer him 4/$44-46M extension before he hits the market.
Like everyone else has said he wants 12 to 13 million and the sox don't offer pitchers 4 year deals.

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 04:31 PM
Absolutely not. I believe with as many flyballs as Garcia gives up he's a bad fit at the Cell.
Yet when he was with the White Sox he had a GO/AO rate of 1.35 and his K/9 went UP to 8.91 after he got traded from Seattle. :rolleyes:

Garland's GO/AO in 2004, 1.25.

Buehrle's GO/AO in 2004, 1.46.

Flight #24
12-12-2004, 04:42 PM
Then give him $48M.
Which, given the payroll constraints on this team means that you do without Dye or any reasonable facsimile in RF (or trade Konerko/Lee but not free up enough salary to do anything with it).

Good thinking.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 04:42 PM
Yet when he was with the White Sox he had a GO/AO rate of 1.35 and his K/9 went UP to 8.91 after he got traded from Seattle. :rolleyes:

Garland's GO/AO in 2004, 1.25.

Buehrle's GO/AO in 2004, 1.46.
His ERA with Seattle was 3.20, with the Sox 4.46.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 04:43 PM
Which, given the payroll constraints on this team means that you do without Dye or any reasonable facsimile in RF (or trade Konerko/Lee but not free up enough salary to do anything with it).

Good thinking.
Hudson makes $6M in 2005, Garcia $8M.

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 04:55 PM
His ERA with Seattle was 3.20, with the Sox 4.46.and?

Do you need me to explain why? Safeco is one of the best pitcher's parks in the league, whereas USCF is one of the best hitter's park in the league.

With the Sox Garcia had a home ERA 5.37, on the Road it was 3.25.
Regardless, his GO/AO is much better than your typical "flyball" pitcher (what you keep calling him.)
:rolleyes:

nodiggity59
12-12-2004, 04:56 PM
Wealz, what universe are you living in?

Hudson wants a minimum of 4 years.

The Sox don't offer more than 3 years for a pitcher.

Thus, Hudson would've been a 1 year rental for us. End of story!

johnny_mostil
12-12-2004, 05:00 PM
His ERA with Seattle was 3.20, with the Sox 4.46.
He was 9-4 with the Sox with that 4.46 ERA.

The difference between Safeco and The Cell is about six tenths of a run per game per team. That Mariner 3.20 is about the same as 3.70 in the Cell.

johnny_mostil
12-12-2004, 05:09 PM
With the Sox Garcia had a home ERA 5.37, on the Road it was 3.25.

Buehrle's home ERA was 5.06, road 2.63
Garland: 5.27, road 4.61
Schoenweis: 5.98/5.21
Loaiza's ERA in USCF was 5.94 last year.

USCF is an extreme hitters' park. You just have to accept it and move on. The kind of pitchers who are hurt by USCF are "all of them". An average major-league starting pitcher will put up some horrible numbers in that park, a 5-something ERA and 30-plus homers. It isn't because they are bad, it's because the park turns fly balls and doubles into home runs on a regular basis.

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 05:18 PM
Buehrle's home ERA was 5.06, road 2.63
Garland: 5.27, road 4.61
Schoenweis: 5.98/5.21
Loaiza's ERA in USCF was 5.94 last year.

USCF is an extreme hitters' park. You just have to accept it and move on. The kind of pitchers who are hurt by USCF are "all of them". An average major-league starting pitcher will put up some horrible numbers in that park, a 5-something ERA and 30-plus homers. It isn't because they are bad, it's because the park turns fly balls and doubles into home runs on a regular basis.I agree with you.
Let's hope Wealz is reading this post because he is the one :whiner: about Garcia's 4.46 ERA with the Sox.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 05:21 PM
Buehrle's home ERA was 5.06, road 2.63
Garland: 5.27, road 4.61
Schoenweis: 5.98/5.21
Loaiza's ERA in USCF was 5.94 last year.

USCF is an extreme hitters' park. You just have to accept it and move on. The kind of pitchers who are hurt by USCF are "all of them". An average major-league starting pitcher will put up some horrible numbers in that park, a 5-something ERA and 30-plus homers. It isn't because they are bad, it's because the park turns fly balls and doubles into home runs on a regular basis.
Which is why an extreme GB pitcher like Hudson would be worth his weight in gold in a park like the cell.

Wealz
12-12-2004, 05:29 PM
KW's trade for Freddy Garcia received plenty of scrutiny at WSI. You could argue that KW overpaid to land Freddy , but if Kenny didn't trade for Garcia and had to bid for his services on this years open market I wonder if the 9 million per for 3 years would have been enough.

Carl Pavano is coming of a career year with a 18-8 record and a era of 3.00 and signed with the Yankees for around 39 million for 4 years. Carl has a lifetime record of 57-58 with a 4.21 era .

Russ Ortiz signed a 4 year 33 million contract with the D-backs. Ortiz does have great stuff but his high number of walks is alarming. Russ was 15-9 with a very high NL era of 4.13 Ortiz has a great winning career record , but outside of a injury to another pitcher the Braves would not have started him in the playoffs. Again another 4 year deal.

Going by what Pavano and Ortiz received I would think Freddy would have gotten a 4 year deal around $45 million or so.

Pitching is at a premium today , so anybody looking to get a #1,2,or even a 3 is going to pay a steep price. The Sox haven't been in a position to offer a pitcher a 4-year deal in a while. Without Garcia, and Konerko, Lee, and Everett coming off the books after '05, that would be $30M freed up.

guillen4life13
12-12-2004, 08:36 PM
How many All-Star games did Pavano START in his career? Just wondering.
That's kind of a stupid statement.

:eloaiza:
I started an All-Star Game. More recently than Freddy Garcia, might I add.

Hangar18
12-13-2004, 09:52 AM
No doubt about it, Kenny made a hell of a move in locking Garcia up so quickly and cheaply, relatively speaking. You have to give him credit for that.
YES the SOX were smart that time. Usually, they would get the player,
"Wait" to see "what the market is doing", then realize pitching is at a premium and end up paying MORE down the road. Its been their MO for 20something years .......

fquaye149
12-13-2004, 09:59 AM
That's kind of a stupid statement.

:eloaiza:
I started an All-Star Game. More recently than Freddy Garcia, might I add.
um not really....E-Lo had a cy-young quality year...which is more than we can say about Pavano. They both have in common that they've really only had one good year, though.

Freddy's had a number of all-star caliber years AND he's been relatively consistent with the notable exception of the last year and a half...which coincidentally seems to coincide with an inner-ear infection.

SoxxoS
12-13-2004, 11:36 AM
um not really....E-Lo had a cy-young quality year...which is more than we can say about Pavano. They both have in common that they've really only had one good year, though.

Freddy's had a number of all-star caliber years AND he's been relatively consistent with the notable exception of the last year and a half...which coincidentally seems to coincide with an inner-ear infection.
Couldn't of put it better myself.

ozzie4life-Are you saying Loiaza and Pavano are as consistant as Garcia? Now that's stupid.