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View Full Version : KW Finally "gets it"?????


SoxBoy14
12-12-2004, 10:44 AM
I'm heartened that KW appears to FINALLY understand that starting pitching is what separates the playoff bound from the also-ran. I have no problem losing some offensive production to have 5 solid starting pitchers. I admit Dye and Crazy Carl at the outfield corners is a step down from Maggs and Caballo but if it means having Jose Contreras as our 5th starter - Buehrle, Garcia, Mulder/Zito, and Vasquez - I'm for it. Starting pitching separates the plaoff bound from the also-ran.

MRKARNO
12-12-2004, 10:57 AM
So you'd be talking about the trade both Lee and Konerko scenario correct? Because that's the only way that would happen.

munchman33
12-12-2004, 10:58 AM
So you'd be talking about the trade both Lee and Konerko scenario correct? Because that's the only way that would happen.
Not to mention the fact the Kenny hasn't gotten anything yet. We still have only four starters.

SoxBoy14
12-12-2004, 11:37 AM
They're grand ssumptions but I'm assuming that's the direction. There's a firesale going on in Oakland, with Pavano signed Vasquez is likely on the way out and a long time Sox employee told me in September the Sox and As made a waiver trade of CLee for Zito. Zito was claimed and the deal never materialized. I'd rather see Mulder, but don't be surprised to see CLee for Zito soon. Buehrle, Garcia, Zito, Vasquez and Contreras is light years ahead of anyone in the AL Central.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2004, 11:54 AM
They're grand ssumptions but I'm assuming that's the direction. There's a firesale going on in Oakland, with Pavano signed Vasquez is likely on the way out and a long time Sox employee told me in September the Sox and As made a waiver trade of CLee for Zito. Zito was claimed and the deal never materialized. I'd rather see Mulder, but don't be surprised to see CLee for Zito soon. Buehrle, Garcia, Zito, Vasquez and Contreras is light years ahead of anyone in the AL Central.Zito is very much a flyball pitcher. Poor fit for the Sox. Hudson or Mulder.

Brian26
12-12-2004, 11:55 AM
There's a firesale going on in Oakland, with Pavano signed Vasquez is likely on the way out and a long time Sox employee told me in September the Sox and As made a waiver trade of CLee for Zito. Zito was claimed and the deal never materialized.
Wow. That's incredible. I'm a huge Caballo fan too, but I'm also starting to fall in love with the idea of getting some real pitching. It just seems like replacing the corner outfield positions is a lot easier than finding quality starting pitching. Clee for Zito is a hell of a trade. I like it.

Brian26
12-12-2004, 11:58 AM
Zito is very much a flyball pitcher. Poor fit for the Sox. Hudson or Mulder.
True. The Coliseum is much bigger than the launching pad the Cell has turned into. CLee for any of Oakland's big 3 is a great trade.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2004, 12:00 PM
True. The Coliseum is much bigger than the launching pad the Cell has turned into. CLee for any of Oakland's big 3 is a great trade.No, Lee for Hudson or Mulder is a good trade. Zito will get killed pitching on the South Side.

Brian26
12-12-2004, 12:04 PM
No, Lee for Hudson or Mulder is a good trade. Zito will get killed pitching on the South Side.
Anyone got Zito's career numbers at the Cell? I guess it might be a small spread considering how often Oakland comes to town. Did he make any starts in the revamped Cell last year?

Flight #24
12-12-2004, 12:31 PM
No, Lee for Hudson or Mulder is a good trade. Zito will get killed pitching on the South Side.
Zito's performance has been declining (1.39WHIP? 4.48 ERA? Them's Jon Garland #s!!). Add to that that he's a flyball pitcher and I don't want him coming within 3 feet of a Sox uni, unless he's in the gift shop.

Tragg
12-12-2004, 12:40 PM
Williams has always gotten it: that's what David Wells and Ritchie were all about; trouble is, they didn't work out.

Lee for a one year rent of Hudson is NOT a good deal.

gosox41
12-12-2004, 12:45 PM
Williams has always gotten it: that's what David Wells and Ritchie were all about; trouble is, they didn't work out.

Lee for a one year rent of Hudson is NOT a good deal.

Even then the Sox dind't ahve 5 starters you can count on.


Bob

Brian26
12-12-2004, 12:45 PM
Williams has always gotten it: that's what David Wells and Ritchie were all about; trouble is, they didn't work out.

Lee for a one year rent of Hudson is NOT a good deal.
Ah- Is Hudson indeed a free agent in 2006? Any trade would require an immediate deal to keep the pitcher here for awhile, IMHO.

jabrch
12-12-2004, 12:50 PM
Lee for a one year rent of Hudson is NOT a good deal.

Even though Lee only has 1 year left on his deal - and at something like 8mm?

California Sox
12-12-2004, 01:12 PM
Check out the lineups of the four teams in the LCS: Rolen, Pujols, and Edmonds are all MVP candidates, Renteria is the best SS in the NL Womack had a tremndous year... Houston had Berkman, Beltran, what's left of Bagwell, even Everett hit decent... Manny and Ortiz were the most dangerous 1-2 combo in the AL and the Yankmees lineup went eight deep. Meanwhile, Boston patched together eight straight wins featuring a lot of Bronson Arroyo and Curt Schilling on one foot. Yes, starting pitching is important, but you've got to be able to hit. Otherwise the Big Three in Oakland would have hoisted one WS trophy and Atlanta would have about eight.

Brian26
12-12-2004, 01:13 PM
Check out the lineups of the four teams in the LCS: Rolen, Pujols, and Edmonds are all MVP candidates, Renteria is the best SS in the NL Womack had a tremndous year... Houston had Berkman, Beltran, what's left of Bagwell, even Everett hit decent... Manny and Ortiz were the most dangerous 1-2 combo in the AL and the Yankmees lineup went eight deep. Meanwhile, Boston patched together eight straight wins featuring a lot of Bronson Arroyo and Curt Schilling on one foot. Yes, starting pitching is important, but you've got to be able to hit. Otherwise the Big Three in Oakland would have hoisted one WS trophy and Atlanta would have about eight.
Goes to show just how far this White Sox team is from even thinking of getting to the World Series.

Tragg
12-12-2004, 01:49 PM
Even though Lee only has 1 year left on his deal - and at something like 8mm?
Then we should do what Oakland is doing and what we should have done with Maggs: shop him to fill holes with signable players and use the salary savings on a FA.
The trouble last year we shopped Maggs for another FA to be (an overrated one at that); it appears we're doing the same with Lee
What's the point?

tstrike2000
12-12-2004, 02:13 PM
The Sox may have had tremendous offensive output but it was usually in the form of solo homeruns or meaningless homeruns. If there's no one on base, then the HR doesn't matter. We need a guy who can come into the 2nd base spot, reliably leadoff that can get on base know's name isn't Willie Harris. Also, I think KW will obtain another starting pitcher but hopefully the price we pay isn't too steep and not in the form of trading a pitcher for a pitcher.

Jerome
12-12-2004, 02:29 PM
So you'd be talking about the trade both Lee and Konerko scenario correct? Because that's the only way that would happen.


OMG if we trade Lee AND Konerko? Who would we have on this team who could hit besides Thomas?

The only big problem for us last year was we were probably short a good SP and we totally needed a high-OBP leadoff man. If we had a high-OBP leadoff man, all those meaningless solo homers would be more "meaningful".

chisox06
12-12-2004, 02:44 PM
I'm heartened that KW appears to FINALLY understand that starting pitching is what separates the playoff bound from the also-ran. I have no problem losing some offensive production to have 5 solid starting pitchers. I admit Dye and Crazy Carl at the outfield corners is a step down from Maggs and Caballo but if it means having Jose Contreras as our 5th starter - Buehrle, Garcia, Mulder/Zito, and Vasquez - I'm for it. Starting pitching separates the plaoff bound from the also-ran.
Hey I have no problem with letting one of our prospects fight for the 5th spot, I mean I think its about time we see what these guys got!

MisterB
12-12-2004, 03:18 PM
a reminder to all those that still insist on giving away all your best everyday players for pitching ......
check out randy johnson's won loss record last year. 16 - 14! and this guy is considered the best pitcher in baseball.

those enamored by the thought of having a strong starting pitching corps still don't 'get it'.i don't think there IS a point. it's movement for the sake of movement isn't it?

this team shouldn't even be thinking about competing this coming season. they should be looking ahead to the following year at best. MAYbe anderson will be ready to help. MAYBE bmac will be ready to help. let's stop suggesting we get rid of all our best players to fill needs that won't help us anyway.
i still can't believe anyone really thinks we're going to go anywhere next year.So the Sox shouldn't try competing next year, and they shouldn't trade guys who won't be here past next year for anything that might help them in the future. Wow, that makes perfect sense - don't try to improve yourself in the short term or the long term. :rolleyes:

johnny_mostil
12-12-2004, 04:13 PM
OMG if we trade Lee AND Konerko? Who would we have on this team who could hit besides Thomas?
Well, somebody, apparently, as the team scored 850+ runs last year. Lee is a good player but he gets himself out an awful lot popping up high first pitches.

MRKARNO
12-12-2004, 04:32 PM
a reminder to all those that still insist on giving away all your best everyday players for pitching ......
check out randy johnson's won loss record last year. 16 - 14! and this guy is considered the best pitcher in baseball.

those enamored by the thought of having a strong starting pitching corps still don't 'get it'.
The fact that he actually won 16 games on a team that lost as many games as they did is incredible.

Times RJ gave up 3 earned or less and got a no decision or a loss: 13
Times RJ gave up 2 earned or less and still got an ND or loss: 10
Times RJ gave up no runs and got a no decision: 2

SpartanSoxFan
12-12-2004, 05:40 PM
:borass:

"As long as Kenny Williams is unwilling to sign clients such as mine with questionable medical histories to multiyear deals, the White Sox will be perennial losers."

SoxBoy14
12-12-2004, 06:02 PM
I appreciate that our offense takes a hit in exchange for the pitching. But how good was Minnesota's offense when it won back-to-back division titles? As long as JR owns this franchise we will not compete with the Yankees and Red Sox. Consequently, the only way to win the WS is to have a killer starting rotation, solid defense and hope we catch lightning in a bottle in the playoffs - ala Florida Marlins.

Jjav829
12-12-2004, 06:20 PM
i think you missed my point. on purpose?

the best pitcher STILL won only 16 games for a team with no offense! and the pitchers we're talking about giving away our best hitters for ... AIN'T RJ! look at where arizona is currently putting their money. they finally figured it out.
if you have no offense (throw in defense) i don't care if you have 4 koufax's out there ... you're not going to win anything.
And if you have no pitching, you could have a lineup full of Babe Ruths and you're not going to win anything. Your point?

The White Sox need balance. Right now this team has very little balance, either offensively or pitching. Was the Sox problem the past few years scoring runs? I'll answer that. No, it wasn't. The problem right now is pitching. And when he's on his game, there's not a single more dominant pitcher in this game than Randy Johnson. And he's on his game quite often. I can't believe you actually brought up his W-L record as if that was his fault. RJ received 4 runs of support per game. That was 79th in baseball. He led the league in quality starts with 26. Give the guy a decent offense around him and he's easily a 20-game winner. A healthy Frank along with, Konerko, Everett, Dye, Uribe, and Rowand is the makings of a good offense. Add in an improvement from Crede and hopefully Willie, and the offense will be fine. Meanwhile we get possibly the best pitcher of this generation.

I'll ask you this. Which do you believe gives this team a better chance to win a World Series: Jon Garland and Carlos Lee, or Carl Everett and Randy Johnson? There's no argument here. Randy Johnson is a pitcher capable of turning around a team. No he can't single-handedly win a World Series. But you put him on a team with a few other good starters such as Buehrle and Garcia, an offense with the likes of Thomas, Konerko, Dye, Everett, and Rowand, and a bullpen with relievers like Shingo and Marte, and you've got a team that could potentially win a World Series.

santo=dorf
12-12-2004, 06:25 PM
And if you have no pitching, you could have a lineup full of Babe Ruths and you're not going to win anything. Your point? Why would idseer want a bunch of Babe Ruth's? Carlos Lee will be more productive than Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds over the next 5 years. :rolleyes:

idseer, the 2005 Sox offense minus Lee or Konerko will still be better than the 2004 Arizona D'Backs' offense. Randy also got some no desicions due to a horrible bullpen, and in case you are wondering, 2005 Sox bullpen >2004 D'Backs' offense.

CWSGuy406
12-12-2004, 08:07 PM
I agree - Hudson or no Hudson, we aren't winning a WS next year with our bullpen, poor defense, and no leadoff hitter and perhaps no DH (and deadful bench - our bench is so consistently bad that it makes Perez look a major league ballplayer to some people).
Lee won't be worth the money he will want as a FA, so trade him and start filling any of the holes mentioned above.
Trade Konerko too;
Sign one or 2 more FA next year and we should be ready to make a run
Poor defense?

Our outfield next year might be one of the best outfield's in the majors (defensively) -- Lee has improved to the point where he's a top-flight left fielder, Rowand has above average range and has a cannon in center, and Jermaine Dye, believe it or not, is above average defensively with an excellent arm.

Even if we make no changes up the middle, we'll have one of the top MIF's defensively with Uribe and Harris (both have excellent range, and while Harris doesn't have much of an arm, Uribe has a cannon - plus, at 2B, Harris' noodle arm won't have that much of an effect). Crede's a rock at 3B, and I consider both Konerko and Gload, the two likely candidates for 1B above average defensively. The only hole I see defensively is at the catcher position, and even Davis and Burke aren't terrible on defense.

Meanwhile, IMHO, our bullpen will be much better next year, too. Cotts and Adkins will both have another year under their belts (Cotts was very underrated last year, he was very good at allowing inherited runners to not score -- unfortunately, a lot of runs got charged to him because Jackson would come in and proceed to give up a homer). Hermanson, while not much of a fifth starter, is a pretty solid reliever. He and Politte will be our late inning righties, with Marte (a rock -- he had what I considered a bad year last season, and looking at the numbers, he was still pretty solid). I guess Shingo is the X-factor -- if he has a good year, we won't need to be switching guys into spots they aren't familiar with.

We're not that far away... Still gotta fill some holes, but we're not that far.

OEO Magglio
12-12-2004, 08:44 PM
Poor defense?

Our outfield next year might be one of the best outfield's in the majors (defensively) -- Lee has improved to the point where he's a top-flight left fielder, Rowand has above average range and has a cannon in center, and Jermaine Dye, believe it or not, is above average defensively with an excellent arm.

Even if we make no changes up the middle, we'll have one of the top MIF's defensively with Uribe and Harris (both have excellent range, and while Harris doesn't have much of an arm, Uribe has a cannon - plus, at 2B, Harris' noodle arm won't have that much of an effect). Crede's a rock at 3B, and I consider both Konerko and Gload, the two likely candidates for 1B above average defensively. The only hole I see defensively is at the catcher position, and even Davis and Burke aren't terrible on defense.

Meanwhile, IMHO, our bullpen will be much better next year, too. Cotts and Adkins will both have another year under their belts (Cotts was very underrated last year, he was very good at allowing inherited runners to not score -- unfortunately, a lot of runs got charged to him because Jackson would come in and proceed to give up a homer). Hermanson, while not much of a fifth starter, is a pretty solid reliever. He and Politte will be our late inning righties, with Marte (a rock -- he had what I considered a bad year last season, and looking at the numbers, he was still pretty solid). I guess Shingo is the X-factor -- if he has a good year, we won't need to be switching guys into spots they aren't familiar with.

We're not that far away... Still gotta fill some holes, but we're not that far.

I completely agree. We're basically above average defensively at every position. Plus our bullpen is going to be very, very good, imo. The backend of the pen with shingo, marte, hermy and politte is very good. Plus I believe cotts and adkins should be much improved this year. If kenny can add a top of the rotation guy this team has a chance to be very solid. I'd also like to add a middle infielder but I don't think it's that important. Willie Harris isn't as bad as some people think.

Tragg
12-12-2004, 09:09 PM
Poor defense?

Our outfield next year might be one of the best outfield's in the majors (defensively) -- Lee has improved to the point where he's a top-flight left fielder, Rowand has above average range and has a cannon in center.I love your optimism, but, please......

And get me a lead-off hitter, please.

CWSGuy406
12-12-2004, 09:36 PM
I love your optimism, but, please......

And get me a lead-off hitter, please.
I won't disagree with you about the leadoff hitter. One of the biggest keys to a team's success, IMHO -- along with a strong bullpen, is the leadoff spot.

If Kenny can sqeeze a couple more bucks outta Jerry, I'd look to go after Miguel Cairo. He hits lefties very well, and if you platoon him with Harris at second (I know a lot here don't really like Harris, but the fact is that he hits righties pretty darn well. He's bound to improve upon his numbers from last year, too) -- and you'll have a darn good leadoff hitter, in the form of the platoon.

As for your "but please..." comment -- do you not agree with me that we don't have a very good defensive team, or what? If you'd like, I'll bring out all the stats, I figured I didn't need to do that. But all of our infielders have above average range, and all play their positions very well (excluding catcher where, like I said, it's just average. Harris has some of the best range of any 2Bman in the league.). And, while you may not think Dye and Lee are good defensively, the fact of the matter is they are. Dye is better than a healthy Maggs, defensively. Lee, OTOH, has improved at his position each year, had no errors this year (not that that means much, but...), as well as being in the top half of the league in range factor and zone rating.

Definitely no defensive liablities anymore, IMHO.