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View Full Version : Sox are right and everyone else wrong?


Hitmen77
12-11-2004, 12:56 AM
None of us really knows what transpired behind the scenes between Maggs and the Sox. I mean, who is wrong? The millionaire greedy player or the millionaire greedy owner? But what troubles me is this recurring pattern of good players leaving the Sox on bitter, angry terms. It's one thing if the Sox just can't afford to keep players, but why is it that star after star has the same story about how the Sox ownership being liars? I don't hear the same stories coming over and over again from players leaving other "poor" franchises such as Cleveland, Minn., Milwaukee, etc.

The only all-star caliber player that I can think of that left the Sox on good terms was Robin Ventura.

And another thing, it's not just about payroll. The Sox can afford to have at least as good a payroll as the other AL Central teams. But, because our farm system is so bad, we're stuck trying to fill holes with money we don't have. We can't compete not because of free agency, but because teams like Minnesota and Cleveland have competent people running their organizations.

MRKARNO
12-11-2004, 01:00 AM
Who has been badmouthing the team while exiting except for Esteban "Cry me a river for my top 10 in the AL Run support, but still claims not to get any" Loaiza and Maggs "I hired Boras to lie for me and to piss off the Sox" Ordonez?

I guess Foulke too and he had a legitimite gripe, but who else has left on sour terms?

CubKilla
12-11-2004, 01:16 AM
I guess Foulke too and he had a legitimite gripe, but who else has left on sour terms?Fisk. Never left, but was rather shown the door. Very unceremoniously.

dcb33
12-11-2004, 01:47 AM
And another thing, it's not just about payroll. The Sox can afford to have at least as good a payroll as the other AL Central teams.
We already have the highest payorll in the Comedy Central. Whether or not we're spending it wisely is up for debate, but giving a gimpy right fielder 60 or 70 mil without any evidence that he can even play is certainly not a smart move.

Dan H
12-11-2004, 08:57 AM
There is no way I would give Ordonez a long term contract when I don't know if he is healthy enough to play. However, the Sox tried to trade him last year even before he was hurt. Face it, they didn't want to pay him, healthy or not.

Maybe the Sox dumbed their way into a great deal. No long term deal for a hurt player. But you can't approach every negotiation fearing a player will get hurt. Many players get hurt. What you end up do is chasing away impact players and signing outfielders who hit .265 and have had injury problems themselves.

As far as the payroll goes, I don't care if it is the highest in the Comedy Central. Winning that division shouldn't be the only goal. If the ownership doesn't care about going to a World Series, why have the team? They should put up or shut up already.

SSN721
12-11-2004, 09:59 AM
I dont think either side is completely innocent in all the goings-on of this Magglio affair. But I think that Maggs in my eyes is more at fault here. Despite the hatred of the Sox organization by many here, I just dont see how them trying to trade Maggs in the offseason last year is enough for him to do all that he did to seemingly get back at the organization. He turned down a very fair deal, more money then I thought he was worth but would have been okay with to keep Maggs on the team. I say very fair deal deffered money or not. Haters of the organization act as if he had a 65-70 million donnar deal where he would get a few mil a year and wont get 80-90% of it paid off until 20 years from now, I find that idea ridiculous. I know nobody knows the details but I dont see how the deferment w/o interest was at worst a mil or two a year. After 2 years interest must be paid if I understand correctly. I dont know, I think he wanted to test the free agency market, which is fine, I dont fault him for that. But I dont beleive the claim that he wasnt given a more then fair offer. He probably would have gotten more on the free agency market had he been healthy. ANd since he was getting more then I thought he was worth with the original contract I would have been okay with the Sox letting him go.

Jurr
12-11-2004, 10:15 AM
I honestly think the Sox are really caring about our thoughts on this subject, and they're going to expose this whole thing in full to show us. I love the comments that Ozzie said on record about the whole organization having a great deal of concern about the way we view this Magglio situation. It has been reported that JR feels the same way (JR cares about the fans' opinion??Wow!).

I really believe that there will be a full list of the information, the contract offrered, and exactly what reports they received from the doctors regarding Maggs' knee so that we see the whole thing outlined.

HIPAA regulations state that a doctor can't give out any information about a health care case without the patient's permission (and you wouldn't believe how strictly we have to abide by that law), and Maggs had the ball in his court as far as what he wanted to disclose.

The thing that really led me to believe that Maggs wasn't honest about the whole thing is the denial of osteoedema or necrosis and also the fact that Boras denied anyone a chance to see him work out. Something's fishy, and that goes without saying.

I am just really pleased that the Sox organization is talking about making a big effort to show the entire matter to fans so that we can make an informed decision. Hopefully they present this, as it would be a very classy move on their behalf (for the fans.....not Maggs, of course!)

JackParkman
12-11-2004, 10:22 AM
Fisk. Never left, but was rather shown the door. Very unceremoniously.
True, but the fact is the Sox did Fisk a huge favor by letting him stick around as long as they did so he could break some catching record. (games played, I believe). Fact is, in his last couple seasons with the Sox Fisk was not a major-league quality baseball player. Keep in mind that after his release by the Sox (which should have been handled much better) nobody picked him up.

voodoochile
12-11-2004, 10:38 AM
True, but the fact is the Sox did Fisk a huge favor by letting him stick around as long as they did so he could break some catching record. (games played, I believe). Fact is, in his last couple seasons with the Sox Fisk was not a major-league quality baseball player. Keep in mind that after his release by the Sox (which should have been handled much better) nobody picked him up.
Which of course came AFTER they screwed him by trying to move him to LF earlier in his career.

They may have owed him those extra games...

SoxBoy14
12-11-2004, 10:45 AM
Am I the only Sox fan happy that because of Maggs' greed we don't have an albatross of a contract for JR to use as an excuse for not going after talent? As far as leaving on good terms, it wasn't but 6 months ago that Olivo left the Sox clubhouse in tears as I recall.

Hitmen77
12-11-2004, 11:02 AM
We already have the highest payorll in the Comedy Central. Whether or not we're spending it wisely is up for debate, but giving a gimpy right fielder 60 or 70 mil without any evidence that he can even play is certainly not a smart move.
I wasn't advocating that we spend more. My point was that we can (and apparently do) have the highest payroll in the AL Central, but our inept player development has left so many holes in our lineup and farm system that we're stuck thinking the only way for the Sox to improve it so "buy" our way out of mediocrity - which we can't afford to do.

jabrch
12-11-2004, 11:11 AM
Maggs canceled his workout to avoid a "media frenzy"....

He's a liar. He already admitted he can't freaking jump yet. How can he have a legitimate workout. If he can't jump, I doubt he can cut, run bases aggressively, pivot, or do anything else that puts pressure on the knee.

Nothing to do with a media frenzy - otherwise he wouldn't be talking to the media. It has everything to do with him being damaged goods. Kudos to KW and JR for not being pressured into compounding a bad situation and making it worse.

kitekrazy
12-11-2004, 11:46 AM
Am I the only Sox fan happy that because of Maggs' greed we don't have an albatross of a contract for JR to use as an excuse for not going after talent? As far as leaving on good terms, it wasn't but 6 months ago that Olivo left the Sox clubhouse in tears as I recall.
Excellent point. Hopefully players and agents will look at the Maggs situation and not put their faith in tomorrow. Maggs and Boras messed up-they know it. So they play the game of making Reinsdork as the evil guy.

Lip Man 1
12-11-2004, 01:53 PM
Robin Ventura left the Sox on bad terms due to the White Flag situation and the last minute low ball offer the club made him.

"Asked if a "white flag" should be flying in front of the Sox dugout, Ventura said to the Chicago Tribune, "Any flag would basically mean the same thing. It's just disappointing, I guess, to think you have a team where everybody in here thinks you can still do it and you can't," Ventura said. "You'll never know what could have happened." Later in the week Ventura would also be quoted as saying,"I didnít know the season ended in August."

After the season Jerry Reinsdorf sent out a letter to all season ticket holders and fans who wrote asking him to re-sign Ventura. I still have mine. In it he states that "it was an agonizing decision to make" but that the Sox felt it was best to go in a new direction.

Later it came out that Ron Scheuler's offer was for significantly less money then the New York Mets.

Among other Sox players who left on 'bad terms' and went public about it were Carlton Fisk, Jack McDowell, Ellis Burks, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez, Julio Franco and a certain shortstop who is now the field manager, Ozzie Guillen.

You can argue that the Sox were right or wrong to let these players go but no one can argue that the WAY they parted company has hurt the franchise struggling to keep and increase their fan base. The bad PR also filters through the MLB community and certainly plays a part in decisions made by other players about coming to the South Side.

There has to be a better way to do this and the question still must be asked about why the list of Sox players who go public with bad things to say when they leave is so long.

Lip

Dolanski
12-11-2004, 02:45 PM
Interesting thing about alot of these guys that left. Almost all of them, were embittered because they wanted to stay. They loved the team, they loved Chicago, and *gasp*, maybe they actually like the fans of the team.

Foulke was the interesting one to me because as the Red Sox were winning their championship this year, he spoke of how he was so sad to leave the White Sox, how he wanted it to work out there. Something about this team makes players want to stay. My guess is its the churros.

TornLabrum
12-11-2004, 04:15 PM
Am I the only Sox fan happy that because of Maggs' greed we don't have an albatross of a contract for JR to use as an excuse for not going after talent? As far as leaving on good terms, it wasn't but 6 months ago that Olivo left the Sox clubhouse in tears as I recall.
So what is his excuse now? Oh, never mind! We are going after talent! Jermaine Dye!

Fake Chet Lemon
12-11-2004, 04:21 PM
Hey Maggs, when someone offers you $60-$70mil the answer is YES you moron. Go grab some bench....elsewhere.

gosox41
12-11-2004, 04:25 PM
Robin Ventura left the Sox on bad terms due to the White Flag situation and the last minute low ball offer the club made him.

"Asked if a "white flag" should be flying in front of the Sox dugout, Ventura said to the Chicago Tribune, "Any flag would basically mean the same thing. It's just disappointing, I guess, to think you have a team where everybody in here thinks you can still do it and you can't," Ventura said. "You'll never know what could have happened." Later in the week Ventura would also be quoted as saying,"I didnít know the season ended in August."

After the season Jerry Reinsdorf sent out a letter to all season ticket holders and fans who wrote asking him to re-sign Ventura. I still have mine. In it he states that "it was an agonizing decision to make" but that the Sox felt it was best to go in a new direction.

Later it came out that Ron Scheuler's offer was for significantly less money then the New York Mets.

Among other Sox players who left on 'bad terms' and went public about it were Carlton Fisk, Jack McDowell, Ellis Burks, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez, Julio Franco and a certain shortstop who is now the field manager, Ozzie Guillen.

You can argue that the Sox were right or wrong to let these players go but no one can argue that the WAY they parted company has hurt the franchise struggling to keep and increase their fan base. The bad PR also filters through the MLB community and certainly plays a part in decisions made by other players about coming to the South Side.

There has to be a better way to do this and the question still must be asked about why the list of Sox players who go public with bad things to say when they leave is so long.

Lip
First, the Sox could have handled some situations better but didn't. But they're not guilty of everything under the sun here. Ozzie came back to manage. He was so angry at the Sox that he decided to beg KW and JR for an interview? Why? He could have stuck it out with Fla with him minimal coaching experience and seen where things took him. He has friends throughout baseball, and points out that he is rich enough. If Ozzie is so hurt, why would he then go and want to work for someone he despised so much?

Second, in a lot of situations with other teams there are players that are unhappy they left. Maybe it's because they were happy when they were here.

Third, look at all the ex-Sox players that come back to work and coach for the team. More and more players from the late '80's and early '90's are playiong a role in the Sox.

Like I said, Fisk and some others have his legit gripes. But some of these players are just blowing off hot air or are full of it.


Bob