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View Full Version : Troubling - Lee trade? - from mid-December


kittle42
12-10-2004, 09:30 AM
Lost in all the Maggs hoopla is the statement in the Sun-Times today that it is Carlos Lee who may get shipped out this weekend.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 09:32 AM
Lost in all the Maggs hoopla is the statement in the Sun-Times today that it is Carlos Lee who may get shipped out this weekend.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Instead of trading Lee, would it not make more sense to move Lee to first and trade Konerko?

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 09:35 AM
I saw this and I was getting ready to post something. Why in the hell would they trade Lee now?

Get rid of a young OF, who is becoming better and better every year, and let Borchard run around?

:angry:

soxtalker
12-10-2004, 09:44 AM
I haven't been able to find the comment (in the online version of the ST). However, let's wait and see what the deal is -- if any occurs. It's fine to say that from our perspective that we should trade Konerko instead of Lee. However, if the other team needs an outfielder, they probably won't see it the same way.

1917
12-10-2004, 09:47 AM
I was afraid this might happen when they got Dye....with Crazy Carl in Right and moving Dye to LF, Lee becomes tradeable as Paulie, if we want that dominating pitching staff, one of them has got to go, Lee is going to test the market next year anyway.

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 09:48 AM
I haven't been able to find the comment (in the online version of the ST). However, let's wait and see what the deal is -- if any occurs. It's fine to say that from our perspective that we should trade Konerko instead of Lee. However, if the other team needs an outfielder, they probably won't see it the same way.
While one new outfielder just walked in the door, the White Sox could be preparing to say goodbye to another.
On the day the Sox announced that Jermaine Dye will take over in right field for Magglio Ordonez, who will depart via free agency, rumors were circulating that left fielder Carlos Lee might be traded as early as this weekend during the annual winter meetings.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox10.html

santo=dorf
12-10-2004, 09:51 AM
I was afraid this might happen when they got Dye....with Crazy Carl in Right and moving Dye to LF, Lee becomes tradeable as Paulie, if we want that dominating pitching staff, one of them has got to go, Lee is going to test the market next year anyway.
He has a team option for $8.5 million for 2006.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 09:54 AM
While one new outfielder just walked in the door, the White Sox could be preparing to say goodbye to another.
On the day the Sox announced that Jermaine Dye will take over in right field for Magglio Ordonez, who will depart via free agency, rumors were circulating that left fielder Carlos Lee might be traded as early as this weekend during the annual winter meetings.First of all, this is nothing but pure speculation on Padilla's part. Second, I've always thought that if the Sox wanted Hudson, Beane would be more interested in Lee than Konerko. So if Trading Lee gets us Hudson, I'd do it. Remember, Lee's contract is up after 2005, too, and I can very easily see him pulling a Magglio.

kittle42
12-10-2004, 09:57 AM
Lee's contract is up after 2005, too, and I can very easily see him pulling a Magglio.
I have two words for JR: drop dead.

:reinsy
"Unfortunately for those of you counting the days til my demise, I worked out a life contract with the fates that is heavily deferred - so my living years have been spread out over a long future period. I'll be here for decades!"

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 09:57 AM
First of all, this is nothing but pure speculation on Padilla's part. Second, I've always thought that if the Sox wanted Hudson, Beane would be more interested in Lee than Konerko. So if Trading Lee gets us Hudson, I'd do it. Remember, Lee's contract is up after 2005, too, and I can very easily see him pulling a Magglio.
Hudson would be a great pickup, does anyone know what his contract looks like?

As far as pulling a Magglio, I dont see that happening but hey I didnt see all this crap with Maggs happening either.

kittle42
12-10-2004, 09:58 AM
Hudson would be a great pickup, does anyone know what his contract looks like?
I would imagine it is on paper, perhaps legal-sized.:smile:

soxfan26
12-10-2004, 10:01 AM
First of all, this is nothing but pure speculation on Padilla's part. Second, I've always thought that if the Sox wanted Hudson, Beane would be more interested in Lee than Konerko. So if Trading Lee gets us Hudson, I'd do it. Remember, Lee's contract is up after 2005, too, and I can very easily see him pulling a Magglio.
I would be all for a Hudson trade and in that case may not be so troubled by trading Lee away but I have never heard any mention of the Sox being a suitor for Hudson except from you. Do you have a source or are you merely speculating?

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 10:01 AM
I would imagine it is on paper, perhaps legal-sized.:smile:
:redneck Thanks!

soxfan26
12-10-2004, 10:04 AM
I would imagine it is on paper, perhaps legal-sized.:smile:
And according to dugout dollars (http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_06_29_dugoutdollars_archive.html) the bottom line is $6 million

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:05 AM
I would be all for a Hudson trade and in that case may not be so troubled by trading Lee away but I have never heard any mention of the Sox being a suitor for Hudson except from you. Do you have a source or are you merely speculating?Just pure speculation on my part. But the deal certainly makes a lot of sense. Oakland needs another OF to replace Dye (the symmetry is beautiful, isn't it?), and they're going to have to trade Hudson.

samram
12-10-2004, 10:06 AM
I would imagine it is on paper, perhaps legal-sized.:smile:
And the first thing to appear on it, and which the player must sign, is a paragraph acknowledging Billy Beane is the greatest baseball mind ever to walk the face of the earth.

nccwsfan
12-10-2004, 10:07 AM
First of all, this is nothing but pure speculation on Padilla's part. Second, I've always thought that if the Sox wanted Hudson, Beane would be more interested in Lee than Konerko. So if Trading Lee gets us Hudson, I'd do it. Remember, Lee's contract is up after 2005, too, and I can very easily see him pulling a Magglio.
If there was a way to lock up Hudson before the end of 2005 I'd jump on this. Everett/Rowand/Dye with Anderson/Sweeney waiting in the minors.....why not?

gosox41
12-10-2004, 10:07 AM
Lost in all the Maggs hoopla is the statement in the Sun-Times today that it is Carlos Lee who may get shipped out this weekend.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Depends on how you look at it. Let's say you can trade Lee for Hudson straight up. Notice this is a hypothetical scenario.

Are the Sox a better team by having Hudson as their 'fifth starter' and Dye in LF then having Dye in RF, Lee in LF, and Grilli or Diaz as our fifth starter?


Bob

soxfan26
12-10-2004, 10:08 AM
Just pure speculation on my part. But the deal certainly makes a lot of sense. Oakland needs another OF to replace Dye (the symmetry is beautiful, isn't it?), and they're going to have to trade Hudson.
Hudson
Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
Garland

:drool:

soxfan26
12-10-2004, 10:11 AM
If there was a way to lock up Hudson before the end of 2005 I'd jump on this. Everett/Rowand/Dye with Anderson/Sweeney waiting in the minors.....why not?
I'm sure the deal would have to include the gurantee of locking Hudson up long term.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:12 AM
Depends on how you look at it. Let's say you can trade Lee for Hudson straight up. Notice this is a hypothetical scenario.

Are the Sox a better team by having Hudson as their 'fifth starter' and Dye in LF then having Dye in RF, Lee in LF, and Grilli or Diaz as our fifth starter?


BobLet me think about this for a while. That's long enough. YES.

CubKilla
12-10-2004, 10:14 AM
If there was a way to lock up Hudson before the end of 2005 I'd jump on this. Everett/Rowand/Dye with Anderson/Sweeney waiting in the minors.....why not?
1.) Nowhere in the article does it say that Lee is going to be traded for Hudson so that is purely speculation.

2.) Did you see Everett's stint last season in LF for Montreal? And people here think that C Lee is a butcher in left.....

If Lee is moved it better be for a guy like Hudson. No Odalis Perez, no Russ Ortiz..... HUDSON.

nccwsfan
12-10-2004, 10:14 AM
I'm sure the deal would have to include the gurantee of locking Hudson up long term.
You would hope anyway :nod:

mdep524
12-10-2004, 10:14 AM
Depends on how you look at it. Let's say you can trade Lee for Hudson straight up. Notice this is a hypothetical scenario.

Are the Sox a better team by having Hudson as their 'fifth starter' and Dye in LF then having Dye in RF, Lee in LF, and Grilli or Diaz as our fifth starter?


Bob
YES. I do not advocate trading Carlos Lee, except in this situation. Lee or Konerko straight up for Hudson, money aside, is a good deal for all parties.

samram
12-10-2004, 10:15 AM
Depends on how you look at it. Let's say you can trade Lee for Hudson straight up. Notice this is a hypothetical scenario.

Are the Sox a better team by having Hudson as their 'fifth starter' and Dye in LF then having Dye in RF, Lee in LF, and Grilli or Diaz as our fifth starter?


Bob
I think having someone competent take the mound every day makes the team better than having one extra big bat and what basically amounts to a guaranteed loss every fifth day.

soxfan26
12-10-2004, 10:21 AM
YES. I do not advocate trading Carlos Lee, except in this situation. Lee or Konerko straight up for Hudson, money aside, is a good deal for all parties.
I agree with you. I would only pull the trigger if it were a one for one swap. I think Lee & Garland is overpaying for Hudson.

MaggPipes
12-10-2004, 10:21 AM
And according to dugout dollars (http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_06_29_dugoutdollars_archive.html) the bottom line is $6 millionI don't know how reliable this site is, look what they have listed as Singleton's age....

OF104-Singleton, Chris

beck72
12-10-2004, 10:21 AM
Lee could be traded if the Sox get a top SP or a top leadoff hitter. With Dye locked in RF for 2 yrs, Rowand in CF, and Everett for LF, [with Anderson and Sweeney around the corner, Anderson in late 2005, Sweeney in 2006], Lee is expendable. Carl's power from the left side is definitely needed w/o Valentin. Carl's 2003 yr showed he has a lot left, and that injuries in 2004 seemed to hurt his power, avg, and defense.

Gload prob. isn't the full time answer at 1B. Keeping Pk and his 40 hr's, solid defense and work ethic would be fine by me. PK could also be DH if Frank isn't back, with Gload at 1B.

Tekijawa
12-10-2004, 10:23 AM
What if we do this and then GO ahead with the Garland and Konerko trade for Vasquez and Cash? Would that free up enough for Delgado... Hey, if we're going to dream might as well dream big....

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:25 AM
What if we do this and then GO ahead with the Garland and Konerko trade for Vasquez and Cash? Would that free up enough for Delgado... Hey, if we're going to dream might as well dream big....If the Sox were able to do a Lee for Hudson, I would stop there. You've already pushed Contreras and Garland down to 4 and 5. Trading Garland just opens up another hole that's got to be filled.

beck72
12-10-2004, 10:28 AM
1.) Nowhere in the article does it say that Lee is going to be traded for Hudson so that is purely speculation.

2.) Did you see Everett's stint last season in LF for Montreal? And people here think that C Lee is a butcher in left.....

If Lee is moved it better be for a guy like Hudson. No Odalis Perez, no Russ Ortiz..... HUDSON.
Everett was injured last yr, with bad wheels. When Everett was healthy in 2003 w/ the sox he was a poor CFer. But would have been fine in LF.

Lee has the trade value to get an impact player to a position the sox need, either SP, SS or 2B [where that player likely would have speed and could lead off]. IMO, OF is a position of excess for the Sox, in 2005 and in the near future w/ Anderson and Sweeney.

PK just doesn't have the same trade value. Lee would more likely get a Hudson type player in return, while PK a Russ Ortiz type player.

samram
12-10-2004, 10:30 AM
If the Sox were able to do a Lee for Hudson, I would stop there. You've already pushed Contreras and Garland down to 4 and 5. Trading Garland just opens up another hole that's got to be filled.
Well, I'm not necessarily agreeing with him, but Vasquez would fill Garland's spot. The rotation would be Garcia, Buehrle, Hudson, Vasquez, Contreras, which would be pretty solid, but the lineup would need a major upgrade.

beck72
12-10-2004, 10:30 AM
If the Sox were able to do a Lee for Hudson, I would stop there. You've already pushed Contreras and Garland down to 4 and 5. Trading Garland just opens up another hole that's got to be filled.
Agreed. After the last few yrs and the problems w/ the 5th starter, the sox will prob. start the yr w/ 5 solid SP's. Garland should be part of the 2005 sox

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:33 AM
Well, I'm not necessarily agreeing with him, but Vasquez would fill Garland's spot. The rotation would be Garcia, Buehrle, Hudson, Vasquez, Contreras, which would be pretty solid, but the lineup would need a major upgrade.You're right. My bad. That would be a solild rotation. But I think there has to be a balance between upgrading pitching and downgrading offense. If we've already traded Lee to get Hudson, I think losing Konerko too would be too much. Lee or Konerko could be traded to upgrade the pitching, but not both.

rdivaldi
12-10-2004, 10:37 AM
Well, I'm not necessarily agreeing with him, but Vasquez would fill Garland's spot. The rotation would be Garcia, Buehrle, Hudson, Vasquez, Contreras, which would be pretty solid, but the lineup would need a major upgrade.
That would be the best rotation in baseball, we wouldn't need much of an offense if that was the case...

samram
12-10-2004, 10:46 AM
You're right. My bad. That would be a solild rotation. But I think there has to be a balance between upgrading pitching and downgrading offense. If we've already traded Lee to get Hudson, I think losing Konerko too would be too much. Lee or Konerko could be traded to upgrade the pitching, but not both.
You're probably right. In the AL, no matter how good a team's pitching is, it's got to be able to win a lot of 7-6, 9-8 games, especially at the Cell, and losing three of the four big bats would really diminish their ability to do that. I know adding Delgado was mentioned, but he didn't have a great year last year, and he's never played in pressure situations, so who knows what a big market team would even get from him.

sircaffey1
12-10-2004, 11:03 AM
who knows what a big market team would even get from him.

Big Market? Us?

Anyways, Delgado is a stud. He's a lot better than how he performed last year. Sticking his left handed bat in front of Frank in the order would be a huge lift for this team. Delgado is a better player than Konerko in my opinion. The market for Delgado is supposedly down, so if KW was able to snatch him up for ~$9 million per he shouldnt hesitate. Assuming Konerko will be traded, we have addressed the pitching need through a Konerko trade, and we have enough cash to sign him obviously.

Randar68
12-10-2004, 11:05 AM
I was afraid this might happen when they got Dye....with Crazy Carl in Right and moving Dye to LF, Lee becomes tradeable as Paulie, if we want that dominating pitching staff, one of them has got to go, Lee is going to test the market next year anyway.
Dye would be in RF and Carl in LF. Dye is a superior outfielder and has a much better arm. Carl is about equivalent to Lee in LF.

samram
12-10-2004, 11:06 AM
Big Market? Us?

Anyways, Delgado is a stud. He's a lot better than how he performed last year. Sticking his left handed bat in front of Frank in the order would be a huge lift for this team. Delgado is a better player than Konerko in my opinion. The market for Delgado is supposedly down, so if KW was able to snatch him up for ~$9 million per he shouldnt hesitate. Assuming Konerko will be traded, we have addressed the pitching need through a Konerko trade, and we have enough cash to sign him obviously.
By "big market," I meant the size of the city, not payroll. I know Toronto is a big market under that definition, but with the Yanks, Red Sox, and mid-to-late 90s Orioles in that division, there haven't been a lot of expectations for the Jays, and Delgado has been able to put up a lot of numbers in meaningless games.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 11:06 AM
Big Market? Us?

Anyways, Delgado is a stud. He's a lot better than how he performed last year. Sticking his left handed bat in front of Frank in the order would be a huge lift for this team. Delgado is a better player than Konerko in my opinion. The market for Delgado is supposedly down, so if KW was able to snatch him up for ~$9 million per he shouldnt hesitate. Assuming Konerko will be traded, we have addressed the pitching need through a Konerko trade, and we have enough cash to sign him obviously.You don't have the cash, because Konerko would be traded for someone making as much or more. Delgado would be great. They could use the LH bat. I just don't see how they could fit him in the budget.

Wealz
12-10-2004, 11:10 AM
Not sure if this was mentioned in the thread, but I saw a blurb in the Southtown that said the Sox were talking to the A's about Hudson, and Lee would be part of the package.

The A's are said to be looking for young pitching too. Maybe Lee and McCarthy for Hudson?

Tekijawa
12-10-2004, 11:12 AM
You don't have the cash, because Konerko would be traded for someone making as much or more. Delgado would be great. They could use the LH bat. I just don't see how they could fit him in the budget.
Here's how I figure....

Konerko -8.5 Mil
Lee -8.5 Mil
Garland -3.5 Mil
-20.5 all together

Vasquez +8 Million
Hudson +6 Million (Probably eventually 11 Million a year)
Yankees pay -4 Million and they in turn can trade for Johnson

I guess that only leaves 5 Million long term... oh well I think Delgado could be had for around 9 Million though.

Randar68
12-10-2004, 11:12 AM
Not sure if this was mentioned in the thread, but I saw a blurb in the Southtown that said the Sox were talking to the A's about Hudson, and Lee would be part of the package.

The A's are said to be looking for young pitching too. Maybe Lee and McCarthy for Hudson?
Lee and Honel? Sure. Lee and Tracey? Sure. Lee and McCarthy? Shoot me now.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 11:14 AM
Here's how I figure....

Konerko -8.5 Mil
Lee -8.5 Mil
Garland -3.5 Mil
-20.5 all together

Vasquez +8 Million
Hudson +6 Million (Probably eventually 11 Million a year)
Yankees pay -4 Million and they in turn can trade for Johnson

I guess that only leaves 5 Million long term... oh well I think Delgado could be had for around 9 Million though.Doesn't Vazquez have something like $34M left on his contract over the next 3 years? Is it that back-loaded?

sircaffey1
12-10-2004, 11:14 AM
If Konerko is traded for Vazquez then it would be assumed that the Yanks would pick up at least 3 mil per year on Vazquez, making him less...And if Garland is included then that is even more salary freed up....

If we are going by speculation, then if Lee is traded for Hudson, then we would be clearing up a lot of salary in that deal right? Hudson makes what like 4-5 million?

These deals would free up enough cash mathematically, but whether that actually means anything knowing this franchise is up for debate.

kittle42
12-10-2004, 11:18 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Lee or Konerko traded (*especially* for Randy Johnson)?

PaulDrake
12-10-2004, 11:19 AM
Carl is about equivalent to Lee in LF. Nobody here is going to challenge THAT? Everett was pure butchery in LF last year. Prior to that he has never been any better than average in the field, and that's being generous. Everybody rags on Lee's defense but he has improved greatly over the years. What the hell. Trade Lee for a couple of sixpacks. They don't have to be cold either. Trade Konerko too. One warm six pack will do. Maggs is a traitor. Dye's an all star. 05 could be a real loooong year.

Tekijawa
12-10-2004, 11:25 AM
Nobody here is going to challenge THAT? Everett was pure butchery in LF last year. Prior to that he has never been any better than average in the field, and that's being generous. Everybody rags on Lee's defense but he has improved greatly over the years. What the hell. Trade Lee for a couple of sixpacks. They don't have to be cold either. Trade Konerko too. One warm six pack will do. Maggs is a traitor. Dye's an all star. 05 could be a real loooong year.
If you think Hudson and Vasquez are Warm Six Packs then I'd like to know what you think of our current staff?

Buehrle= 5 pack + 1 open beer
Garcia= 5 pack + 1 open half drank warm beer
Contreras= 3 pack
Garland= 1 beer and a 3 wiseman
5 spot= some spilled beer in an ashtray

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 11:29 AM
If you think Hudson and Vasquez are Warm Six Packs then I'd like to know what you think of our current staff?

Buehrle= 5 pack + 1 open beer
Garcia= 5 pack + 1 open half drank warm beer
Contreras= 3 pack
Garland= 1 beer and a 3 wiseman
5 spot= some spilled beer in an ashtrayActually, I would say the 5th spot is more like the beer after "filtering".
:pee

Randar68
12-10-2004, 11:31 AM
Nobody here is going to challenge THAT? Everett was pure butchery in LF last year. Prior to that he has never been any better than average in the field, and that's being generous. Everybody rags on Lee's defense but he has improved greatly over the years. What the hell. Trade Lee for a couple of sixpacks. They don't have to be cold either. Trade Konerko too. One warm six pack will do. Maggs is a traitor. Dye's an all star. 05 could be a real loooong year.
Yeah, you're right. We've won so many championships and division titles with said current players...

nccwsfan
12-10-2004, 12:09 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Lee or Konerko traded (*especially* for Randy Johnson)?
Probably not kittle42- I don't want to see them traded either, but if it improves the team's chances of getting to and winning a World Series you have to take a good hard look at doing it. A #1 ace is a little bit harder to come by than an OF with a good bat, so if this would improve the team (and all things equal it would) I would say thanks Carlos and good luck in Oakland.

nccwsfan
12-10-2004, 12:12 PM
Nobody here is going to challenge THAT? Everett was pure butchery in LF last year. Prior to that he has never been any better than average in the field, and that's being generous. Everybody rags on Lee's defense but he has improved greatly over the years. What the hell. Trade Lee for a couple of sixpacks. They don't have to be cold either. Trade Konerko too. One warm six pack will do. Maggs is a traitor. Dye's an all star. 05 could be a real loooong year.
What is harder to come by in the majors, a #1 pitcher with upside or an OF who can hit? Which one is easier to develop in the minors? What position in the Sox farm system is loaded? No one wants to kick Lee out, but if you answer the above questions honestly you see where some would be eager to get TH in here.

santo=dorf
12-10-2004, 12:14 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned in the thread, but I saw a blurb in the Southtown that said the Sox were talking to the A's about Hudson, and Lee would be part of the package.

The A's are said to be looking for young pitching too. Maybe Lee and McCarthy for Hudson?You're one of Williams' biggest critics, and rip on him for giving away talent yet you suggest giving away McCarthy for a one year rental of Hudson?!?!? :kukoo:

When Rick Hahn was on the ESPN1000 Hot Stove show a month ago, he said that B-Mac could "command a King's ransom," yet he is still untouchable, as is Anderson.

wdelaney72
12-10-2004, 12:20 PM
Nobody here is going to challenge THAT? Everett was pure butchery in LF last year. Prior to that he has never been any better than average in the field, and that's being generous. Everybody rags on Lee's defense but he has improved greatly over the years. What the hell. Trade Lee for a couple of sixpacks. They don't have to be cold either. Trade Konerko too. One warm six pack will do. Maggs is a traitor. Dye's an all star. 05 could be a real loooong year.
Lee has become an ABOVE AVERAGE left fielder. He's considerably better defsively and offensively than Carl.

Lee is my current favorite player left on the Sox. He's been the most consistent producer we have left. For Tim Hudson or Moulder I would suck it up, see some counseling, and approve the deal. I would not be for trading Lee for Vazquez in anyway.

As much as the thought pains me, I can see that a deal of Lee for Hudson straight up makes sense for both teams. We just better hope to God that Carl shows up to ST in shape.

PaulDrake
12-10-2004, 12:24 PM
If you think Hudson and Vasquez are Warm Six Packs then I'd like to know what you think of our current staff?

Buehrle= 5 pack + 1 open beer
Garcia= 5 pack + 1 open half drank warm beer
Contreras= 3 pack
Garland= 1 beer and a 3 wiseman
5 spot= some spilled beer in an ashtray Having Hudson on your pitching staff is great for any team that can land him or in the A's case keep him. I don't trust the Sox to trade for Hudson without giving up half the store. In any case regarding getting Hudson for Lee, if I seemed over the top to you then I see your point.The Sox have a limited number of real assets. So many seem so willing to deal Lee and/or Konerko for whatever. I'm concerned that the Lee situation looks like de ja vu all over again. Maggs part II. This franchise is looking more and more like the Pirates to me with each passing day. It's hard to get a divorce after 45+ years with the team, but this offseason is pushing me to the brink. The original point that set me off was comparing Lee to Everett. Lee is no longer the incompetent in the field that he once was. You can't field any better than 1.000, and yes I know many think fielding averages are misleading. Lastly, good post. It made me laugh and I'm not being a smartass or sarcastic, the last 5 lines are pretty funny.

ode to veeck
12-10-2004, 12:45 PM
And people here think that C Lee is a butcher in left.....


Caballo's OF skills have shown a marked improvement, as have Crash's as well for that matter

Brian26
12-10-2004, 01:00 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't want to see Lee or Konerko traded (*especially* for Randy Johnson)?

No, I'm right there with you.

FightingBillini
12-10-2004, 01:00 PM
Doesn't Vazquez have something like $34M left on his contract over the next 3 years? Is it that back-loaded?2005- $10.5
2006- $11.5
2007- $12.5

nitetrain8601
12-10-2004, 01:02 PM
I would give up Lee & Honel and that's being generous. I am in no way giving up McCarthy. Hudson is a really good pitcher and as I said earlier, I would give Lee & Honel or Diaz for him. And then I would give up Garland for a leadoff hitter. Any leadoff hitter.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2004, 01:06 PM
For what it's worth:

Peter Gammons in his latest ESPN column says the possible 3 way deal between the Yankees / Sox and D-backs is dead. He says the deal was cooked up by Williams but the D-backs have never gotten back to him on it.

Instead Gammons says the D-baks were busy locking up Glaus, Ortiz and Royce Clayton while all of MLB is wondering where the money is coming from.

Lip

Jjav829
12-10-2004, 01:09 PM
I'd trade him, only if it's for Hudson as I have wished before. I don't have much interest in Zito.


One source said Thursday the Sox have been in talks with Oakland for a deal that would land either Tim Hudson or Barry Zito, and would involve a package that included left fielder Carlos Lee.:KW
"Zito it is, then!"

longshot7
12-10-2004, 01:21 PM
Per Steve Phillips on the Dan Patrick show: The Braves, Mets, & Dodgers are the front-runners for Hudson.

santo=dorf
12-10-2004, 01:24 PM
Per Steve Phillips on the Dan Patrick show: The Braves, Mets, & Dodgers are the front-runners for Hudson.
He also went on Sportscenter saying he expected Soriano to be traded to the Sox. :rolleyes:

1917
12-10-2004, 01:30 PM
He also went on Sportscenter saying he expected Soriano to be traded to the Sox. :rolleyes:
I'll take Soriano!

samram
12-10-2004, 01:35 PM
He also went on Sportscenter saying he expected Soriano to be traded to the Sox. :rolleyes:
Actually, that could make sense as part of a three-way deal since Oakland really needs to get a 2B in any deal involving Hudson or Zito. I don't know if Texas would really want to see Soriano in the division though.

Jjav829
12-10-2004, 01:37 PM
Actually, that could make sense as part of a three-way deal since Oakland really needs to get a 2B in any deal involving Hudson or Zito. I don't know if Texas would really want to see Soriano in the division though.
Alfonso Soriano is the anti-Billy Beane player. He's the exact opposite of everything Beane looks for in a player, and at his price, there's no way in hell that happens.

BRDSR
12-10-2004, 01:43 PM
Depends on how you look at it. Let's say you can trade Lee for Hudson straight up. Notice this is a hypothetical scenario.

Are the Sox a better team by having Hudson as their 'fifth starter' and Dye in LF then having Dye in RF, Lee in LF, and Grilli or Diaz as our fifth starter?


Bob
Yes. No Question.

A rotation of Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, Hudson, and Garland gives you a .500 or better pitcher every day. That rotation, if healthy for an entire year, would gives the White Sox 90 wins.

samram
12-10-2004, 01:47 PM
Alfonso Soriano is the anti-Billy Beane player. He's the exact opposite of everything Beane looks for in a player, and at his price, there's no way in hell that happens.
I agree with that, it just seemed to make sense position wise. If the Braves are willing to trade Giles, they have the best shot.

SoxBoy14
12-10-2004, 01:52 PM
I spoke last fall to a long-time employee of the White Sox. The Sox and As did a waiver wire deal Carlos Lee for Barry Zito. That's what you'll likely see this weekend. I'd prefer Mark Mulder. He's a far superior pitcher and is a lifelong die-hard Sox fan. Give me the best starters and bullpen in the American League before a softball team that goes .500.

Wealz
12-10-2004, 01:54 PM
You're one of Williams' biggest critics, and rip on him for giving away talent yet you suggest giving away McCarthy for a one year rental of Hudson?!?!? :kukoo:

When Rick Hahn was on the ESPN1000 Hot Stove show a month ago, he said that B-Mac could "command a King's ransom," yet he is still untouchable, as is Anderson.
Hudson isn't a King's ransom? And who said it would be a rental?

That you think Anderson is untouchable is more evidence to me that you don't understand the game.

kittle42
12-10-2004, 01:59 PM
Hudson isn't a King's ransom? And who said it would be a rental?

:reinsy
He did. :smile:

mdep524
12-10-2004, 02:08 PM
I spoke last fall to a long-time employee of the White Sox. The Sox and As did a waiver wire deal Carlos Lee for Barry Zito. That's what you'll likely see this weekend. I'd prefer Mark Mulder. He's a far superior pitcher and is a lifelong die-hard Sox fan. Give me the best starters and bullpen in the American League before a softball team that goes .500.
Please, no Barry Zito. He is overrated, and has seemingly lost the touch that landed him a Cy Young award a few years ago. He'd become El Gasolino in The Cell. The ONLY way I'd trade CLee would be for Hudson or maybe Mulder. Zito = no.

DSpivack
12-10-2004, 02:22 PM
Please, no Barry Zito. He is overrated, and has seemingly lost the touch that landed him a Cy Young award a few years ago. He'd become El Gasolino in The Cell. The ONLY way I'd trade CLee would be for Hudson or maybe Mulder. Zito = no.
Yeah, Hudson or Mulder...both are studs. Zito---please no. Just no.

gosox41
12-10-2004, 02:25 PM
He also went on Sportscenter saying he expected Soriano to be traded to the Sox. :rolleyes::chunks

That picture is what I think of the Sox going after Soriano for 3 reasons:

1. He is highly overrated.
2. He is overpaid for what you get.
3. Texas wants pitching for Soriano. The Sox need pitching they shouldn't be giving it away.



Bob

Randar68
12-10-2004, 02:51 PM
Hudson isn't a King's ransom? And who said it would be a rental?

That you think Anderson is untouchable is more evidence to me that you don't understand the game.
I believe that he's just reporting what Rick Hahn intimated in that radio interview.

Hangar18
12-10-2004, 02:59 PM
Per Steve Phillips on the Dan Patrick show: The Braves, Mets, & Dodgers are the front-runners for Hudson.
Boy, they sure do love those American League Players dont they?

SoxBoy14
12-10-2004, 03:11 PM
Hangar, would you be willing to part with Konerko, C Lee and Garland if in exchange, this was your five starters:

Buehrle
Mulder
Garcia
Contreras
Vazquez

????

FightingBillini
12-10-2004, 03:45 PM
Hangar, would you be willing to part with Konerko, C Lee and Garland if in exchange, this was your five starters:

Buehrle
Mulder
Garcia
Contreras
Vazquez

????
I would only if I saved at $6-7 million in making the deal. That would allow me to sign Delgado and maybe another role player.

tstrike2000
12-10-2004, 03:49 PM
I would only if I saved at $6-7 million in making the deal. That would allow me to sign Delgado and maybe another role player.
You wouldn't have to worry about that anyway. Even if we had the money, Delgado wants to play out west.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 04:43 PM
I'll take Soriano!Yeah. Someone has to replace Valentin's whiffs.

FightingBillini
12-10-2004, 04:55 PM
You wouldn't have to worry about that anyway. Even if we had the money, Delgado wants to play out west.Actually, it looks like he is going to Baltimore.

tstrike2000
12-10-2004, 05:05 PM
Actually, it looks like he is going to Baltimore.
Did I say out west? Actually, I thought the Mariners were going to make him an offer he couldn't refuse. Thanks for the update.

Mohoney
12-10-2004, 05:34 PM
I agree with you. I would only pull the trigger if it were a one for one swap. I think Lee & Garland is overpaying for Hudson.
Can Lee + prospects get us Hudson?

Can Garland + prospects get us Vazquez + cash?

Hudson
Garcia
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras

Minnesota couldn't touch us.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 05:45 PM
Can Lee + prospects get us Hudson?

Can Garland + prospects get us Vazquez + cash?

Hudson
Garcia
Buehrle
Vazquez
Contreras

Minnesota couldn't touch us.You never can be sure, but I'd bet that Lee + prospects would get you Hudson. Maybe Lee alone. No way you're going to get Vazquez +cash for Garland + prospects, though. Most people think it will take Konerko + Garland. I don't think you could do both deals, though. Pitching is great, but you have to be able to score at least a few runs, and without both Lee and Konerko, they would have a pretty serious power outage. One or the other, but not both.

If I had my druthers, I'd go for Hudson.

Mohoney
12-10-2004, 06:02 PM
You never can be sure, but I'd bet that Lee + prospects would get you Hudson. Maybe Lee alone. No way you're going to get Vazquez +cash for Garland + prospects, though. Most people think it will take Konerko + Garland. I don't think you could do both deals, though. Pitching is great, but you have to be able to score at least a few runs, and without both Lee and Konerko, they would have a pretty serious power outage. One or the other, but not both.

If I had my druthers, I'd go for Hudson.
Exactly how much cash would we get if we gave the Yankees Konerko and Garland?

If we got $5 million per season over the life of Vazquez's deal as compensation for giving up that much talent, we would be shedding more than enough salary to sign a replacement for Konerko and still be at $75 million.

Subtract Carlos, Paulie, and Garland. That puts us somewhere around $50 million. Add Vazquez and Hudson, that puts us somewhere around $66 million. We subtract $5 million that the Yankees give us, and we're at about $61 million. With $14 million more dollars, I'm sure we can either sign a comparable replacement for Konerko and make another minor move or two, or live with Gload and sign Renteria.

Yes, the offense wouldn't be what we're used to. But to field a rotation like that, with four workhorses that have all proven themselves to be significantly above average at this level, I would do just about anything to make it happen.

Paulwny
12-10-2004, 06:10 PM
Why in God's name would the yanks want Konerko or Garland? After NY signs fa pitchers the best Garland would see would be the yankee bull pen and NY knows this.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 06:17 PM
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/101sd1.htm
Williams' attention now turns to adding a starting pitcher, most likely through a trade.

"We are looking to do more and make the team better," he said.

One source said Thursday the Sox have been in talks with Oakland for a deal that would land either Tim Hudson or Barry Zito, and would involve a package that included left fielder Carlos Lee.

"There's very little (free-agent) money left, unless I wanted to add a bench player at the right cost," Williams said of his payroll. "If I want to add an impact player now, I would have to move some salary."

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 06:30 PM
Exactly how much cash would we get if we gave the Yankees Konerko and Garland?

If we got $5 million per season over the life of Vazquez's deal as compensation for giving up that much talent, we would be shedding more than enough salary to sign a replacement for Konerko and still be at $75 million.

Subtract Carlos, Paulie, and Garland. That puts us somewhere around $50 million. Add Vazquez and Hudson, that puts us somewhere around $66 million. We subtract $5 million that the Yankees give us, and we're at about $61 million. With $14 million more dollars, I'm sure we can either sign a comparable replacement for Konerko and make another minor move or two, or live with Gload and sign Renteria.

Yes, the offense wouldn't be what we're used to. But to field a rotation like that, with four workhorses that have all proven themselves to be significantly above average at this level, I would do just about anything to make it happen.Given that the Sox are playing in Coors East, I don't think you can completely neglect the 3-4-5 part of the lineup. IMO, losing BOTH Lee and Konerko, on top of losing Ordonez, would leave the lineup too lean in the middle.

When the Yanks were negotiating directly with the D-backs, they were said to be offering a total of about $12M, or $4M per year remaining on Vazquez' contract. Assuming we could get the same:

Current payroll: $70M
Konerko: -8.5M
Garland: -3.4M
Vazquez: +10.5M
Cash from NY: -4M

Net: $64.6M

Assuming the Sox were willing to go to $75M, that would leave about $10M to sign another starter. Alternative:

Lee to OAK: -8M?
Hudson +6M

New net: $62.6M

This is enough to sign someone like Delgado to shore up the middle of the lineup with a little money left over. Renteria would be nice, but with nothing in the 3-4-5 spot, I'd be afraid the Sox would lead all of MLB in LOB.

jabrch
12-10-2004, 06:33 PM
If trading Carlos got us a top tier SP, I'd do it. You can always replace a LF. You can't just find a top of the rotation starter lying around.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 06:35 PM
If trading Carlos got us a top tier SP, I'd do it. You can always replace a LF. You can't just find a top of the rotation starter lying around.I think we're in the majority. I like Carlos, but I'd L-O-V-E to have Tim Hudson in the rotation.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 06:40 PM
I think we're in the majority. I like Carlos, but I'd L-O-V-E to have Tim Hudson in the rotation.Whomever could disagree with such a trade is just flat-out wrong.

batmanZoSo
12-10-2004, 06:54 PM
Instead of trading Lee, would it not make more sense to move Lee to first and trade Konerko?
Not that first part. Lee has worked extremely hard to be an average left fielder, it would be a lot worse at first for him. And I doubt he'd ever become "average." Though I would like to see Konerko traded because I believe Lee has a bigger upside. But I still wouldn't be heartbroken if we traded him and kept Konerko depending on who we get in return. If it's Javy Vazquez for instance, I'd say let it be.

P.S. Lee could be considered average or above average in left field. Not my point here.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 07:30 PM
Here's my new sig just because of this thread. :wink:

jabrch
12-10-2004, 07:41 PM
Whomever could disagree with such a trade is just flat-out wrong.


No matter what KW does, someone will disagree with it.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 07:47 PM
No matter what KW does, someone will disagree with it.Yep, and it's usually either KW-haters or homer fans that can't stand the thought of losing one of their favorite players. My view is if it makes the team better, I'm all for it. Trading Carlos Lee + prospect(s) for Tim Hudson would make sense. We would get to keep Konerko and Garland and have an awesome rotation...

1.) Tim Hudson
2.) Mark Buehrle
3.) Freddy Garcia
4.) Jose Contreras
5.) Jon Garland

That rotation is filthy.:o:

The downside to trading Lee for Hudson would be that if Frank is not healthy enough to DH at the start of the season, we would have to field this lineup...

2B Willie Harris
CF Aaron Rowand
1B Paul Konerko
RF Jermaine Dye
LF Carl Everett
DH Ross Gload / Joe Borchard
SS Juan Uribe
3B Joe Crede
C Ben Davis

It's still worth it in my opinion.

nitetrain8601
12-10-2004, 08:01 PM
Making premature sigs like that is the reason RJ is not coming here. Ask santo=dorf and he'll tell you of all the pre-made ones he made and so far, all the ones he made with guys not on the team have never come to fruitation. Thanks alot Jabroni, now it looks like we'll not be able to get either.

illinibk
12-10-2004, 08:02 PM
Hudson>>>>>>>>>>Vazquez.

Hudson gb/fb (2004/career): 2.53/2.21
Vazquez gb/fb: 0.85/1.08

and for comparison, the Sox's resident gb pitcher:
Garland gb/fb: 1.27/1.30


Why trade for an overprice gopher ball pitcher? Just what the Sox need, especially at the Cell, is a pitcher who serves up flyballs.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 08:08 PM
Making premature sigs like that is the reason RJ is not coming here. Ask santo=dorf and he'll tell you of all the pre-made ones he made and so far, all the ones he made with guys not on the team have never come to fruitation. Thanks alot Jabroni, now it looks like we'll not be able to get either.:booty::booty::booty:

ondafarm
12-10-2004, 08:09 PM
First of all, this is nothing but pure speculation on Padilla's part. Second, I've always thought that if the Sox wanted Hudson, Beane would be more interested in Lee than Konerko. So if Trading Lee gets us Hudson, I'd do it. Remember, Lee's contract is up after 2005, too, and I can very easily see him pulling a Magglio.
I agree.

Mohoney
12-10-2004, 08:21 PM
Given that the Sox are playing in Coors East, I don't think you can completely neglect the 3-4-5 part of the lineup. IMO, losing BOTH Lee and Konerko, on top of losing Ordonez, would leave the lineup too lean in the middle.

When the Yanks were negotiating directly with the D-backs, they were said to be offering a total of about $12M, or $4M per year remaining on Vazquez' contract. Assuming we could get the same:

Current payroll: $70M
Konerko: -8.5M
Garland: -3.4M
Vazquez: +10.5M
Cash from NY: -4M

Net: $64.6M

Assuming the Sox were willing to go to $75M, that would leave about $10M to sign another starter. Alternative:

Lee to OAK: -8M?
Hudson +6M

New net: $62.6M

This is enough to sign someone like Delgado to shore up the middle of the lineup with a little money left over. Renteria would be nice, but with nothing in the 3-4-5 spot, I'd be afraid the Sox would lead all of MLB in LOB.
At least my math is close. I had $61 million, you more accurately put it at $62.6 million. All I'm saying is if Kenny wants to think big and get 2 starters, I could live with a 3, 4, 5, 6 of Rowand, Frank, Everett, and Dye, if we get Renteria for the leadoff spot. I think Uribe batting 2nd could work, too. Gload bats 7th, Davis/Burke 8th, and Crede 9th.

Personally, I think trading for Hudson and locking him up long term is a move that has to be made, even at the expense of Carlos Lee, because Hudson is, in my opinion, a better proposition than Clement, Odalis Perez, or anybody else that's left on the free agent market.

I'm well aware that none of this is going to happen. I'm just having a little fun playing GM. Just once, before I die, I want to see a rotation on the south side that's stacked from 1-4, where I would feel completely confident in giving any one of the 4 guys a playoff start.

Would anybody here feel confident in running Contreras or Garland out for a playoff start? I sure wouldn't.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 10:13 PM
Now don't laugh at me but I just realized that we also have CF/RF Alex Escobar on our bench. He was once a top Mets OF prospect. Trading Carlos Lee might not hurt quite as much if Escobar can get healthy and produce for us. If Escobar has a Uribe type first year with us, we could be set.

santo=dorf
12-10-2004, 10:17 PM
Here's my new sig just because of this thread. :wink:
At first I thought that was Koch. :cower:

santo=dorf
12-10-2004, 10:19 PM
Making premature sigs like that is the reason RJ is not coming here. Ask santo=dorf and he'll tell you of all the pre-made ones he made and so far, all the ones he made with guys not on the team have never come to fruitation. Thanks alot Jabroni, now it looks like we'll not be able to get either.
Don't blame Jabroni, blame me.

It's the curse of Santo's Sigs. :(:

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 10:19 PM
At first I thought that was Koch. :cower:Hudson and Koch have similar "flavor-savers." :tongue:

nitetrain8601
12-10-2004, 10:26 PM
Don't blame Jabroni, blame me.

It's the curse of Santo's Sigs. :(:
Okay, I blame you, btw Nice sig

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2004, 10:32 AM
Now don't laugh at me but I just realized that we also have CF/RF Alex Escobar on our bench. He was once a top Mets OF prospect. Trading Carlos Lee might not hurt quite as much if Escobar can get healthy and produce for us. If Escobar has a Uribe type first year with us, we could be set.I've had Escobar in the back of my mind, too, but I think it would be unwise to count on him. If he comes through, it's gravy.

MRKARNO
12-11-2004, 11:01 AM
I would probably rank my preference of pitchers in this order (of what I've heard we might be after

1. Halladay
2. Vazquez
3(tie). Hudson
3(tie). Mulder
5(by a lot). Zito
6. RJ-Because I saw what the DBacks turned down from the Yankees and it would hurt our team to do such a trade

Flight #24
12-11-2004, 11:07 AM
Per dugoutdollars, Halladay's scheduled for 10.5, 12.7, 12.8 the next 3 years. For that $$$, I think I'd prefer Hudson/Mulder (please, no Zito). Even Vazquez at 5-6mil might be a better bet.

MRKARNO
12-11-2004, 11:13 AM
Per dugoutdollars, Halladay's scheduled for 10.5, 12.7, 12.8 the next 3 years. For that $$$, I think I'd prefer Hudson/Mulder (please, no Zito). Even Vazquez at 5-6mil might be a better bet.
I didnt realize that. Halladay has performed better at his best, but he's been hurt more than once in his career. Therefore if we are taking on a longterm deal, Vazquez is probably the better way to go. Their contracts are about the same and it will definately be really good if the Yankees paid a decent amount of the contract (anything more than 10 mil would be awesome if we didnt have to give up prospects).

bafiarocks03
12-11-2004, 12:16 PM
I saw this and I was getting ready to post something. Why in the hell would they trade Lee now?

Get rid of a young OF, who is becoming better and better every year, and let Borchard run around?

:angry:
I agree man! They would be idiots to trade Carlos!! Get rid of Borchard! We don't need him!

OEO Magglio
12-11-2004, 12:18 PM
I agree man! They would be idiots to trade Carlos!! Get rid of Borchard! We don't need him!
Lee's trade value is just a tad bit better then Borchards.

Jjav829
12-11-2004, 03:01 PM
I would probably rank my preference of pitchers in this order (of what I've heard we might be after

1. Halladay
2. Vazquez
3(tie). Hudson
3(tie). Mulder
5(by a lot). Zito
6. RJ-Because I saw what the DBacks turned down from the Yankees and it would hurt our team to do such a trade
Since when are we after Halladay? :?: There's no way Toronto trades him.

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2004, 03:46 PM
I agree man! They would be idiots to trade Carlos!! Get rid of Borchard! We don't need him!Yeah. Let's trade Borchard for a #1 pitcher!!! Best idea I've heard all day.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-11-2004, 03:56 PM
Yeah. Let's trade Borchard for a #1 pitcher!!! Best idea I've heard all day.
Now you know why I never get involved in (or usually even bother to read) these "what if" trade threads. The level of insanity they always achieve is completely over the top.

A big waste of bandwith... but fun!
:wink:

Ol' No. 2
12-11-2004, 03:58 PM
Now you know why I never get involved in (or usually even bother to read) these "what if" trade threads. The level of insanity they always achieve is completely over the top.

A big waste of bandwith... but fun!
:wink:I usually ignore them, too, but that was so far out in space I couldn't resist. Maybe it helps to have a few of these.:gulp:

Tragg
12-11-2004, 08:15 PM
I was afraid this might happen when they got Dye....with Crazy Carl in Right and moving Dye to LF, Lee becomes tradeable as Paulie, if we want that dominating pitching staff, one of them has got to go, Lee is going to test the market next year anyway.
Especially since Lee seems to be more highly valued than Konerko, and Williams always seems to throw in a little Lagniappe into his deals - i.e. rarely gets the edge in value on paper.

Nick@Nite
12-11-2004, 08:29 PM
:tomatoaward

Belated, that is.

Soxfest
12-12-2004, 10:26 AM
C. Lee can go he is way overpaid and people around the league do not think alot of him like some Sox fans on this board, the lawn ornament can go.