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View Full Version : Per Magglio: Sox are Liars, Only interested in $$, Not Winning


humansushi
12-10-2004, 06:40 AM
2 latest stories coming out from sun-times and trib.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-maggs10.html

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041209maggs,1,3864548.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

sorry bout the long links,still learning

humansushi
12-10-2004, 06:45 AM
after reading these articles I'm feelin a little bad for Maggs. 20 years deferred money?? c'mon!! Why would he want the Sox making a dime with his money over 20 years?? crazy!!! The Sox, as with other businesses, want to make money first, but if I was Maggs I'd be gone too. GL Maggs!

munchman33
12-10-2004, 06:48 AM
This thread already exists.

humansushi
12-10-2004, 06:57 AM
sorry I thought these were different links, I didn't see the same article links posted.

Kilroy
12-10-2004, 07:55 AM
after reading these articles I'm feelin a little bad for Maggs. 20 years deferred money?? c'mon!! Why would he want the Sox making a dime with his money over 20 years?? crazy!!! The Sox, as with other businesses, want to make money first, but if I was Maggs I'd be gone too. GL Maggs!No, that's not right. I thought it was already established that the money couldn't be deferred longer than 5 years. Someone either confirm or correct that statement, please.

Either way, there's no way I'm feeling bad for Maggs. Couch's story today painted a pretty clear picture of how things went w/ his knee. Maggs went around the Sox getting second opinions and additional surgeries. Maggs may have sent the doctor's report to the Sox, but was that before or after everyone found out about the second surgery that they tried to keep secret? Oh, and by the way, that medical report was said to have contained information about treatment for the bone marrow edema that Maggs has claimed he didn't have. Maybe he thought we weren't paying attention. And really, who cares whether the he sent the doctor's report? Maggs refuses to be examined now, so I don't blame the Sox one bit for not putting any money on the line.

I really hope that the guy ends up being healthy enough to play, but I won't be the slightest bit surprised if he doesn't. He's not getting any sympathy here.

humansushi
12-10-2004, 08:10 AM
I'm not blaming the Sox 1 bit by not offering arbitration to Maggs without being able to examine him before the deadline. I think that was a bad a shady choice on his part. But on the other side of the coin, before the injury last spring training, I can understand why Maggs would turn down a contract offer with so much of the money deferred. Bad choices or choice of words on both parties either way. I just hope Frank returns healthy now.

Hangar18
12-10-2004, 08:45 AM
Pretty scalding remarks. Esp the bombshell that KW and the SOX
DID indeed tell Maggs to go to Austria. Nice.

anewman35
12-10-2004, 08:46 AM
Pretty scalding remarks. Esp the bombshell that KW and the SOX
DID indeed tell Maggs to go to Austria. Nice.
Except they didn't, a doctor did and didn't tell the Sox. Pay attention before you start accusing the SOx of things.

munchman33
12-10-2004, 08:47 AM
What's with people this morning. We have like 9 threads on two issues.

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 08:51 AM
Except they didn't, a doctor did and didn't tell the Sox. Pay attention before you start accusing the SOx of things.
Right! Come on Henry your slacking!

I dont know what to think with the Magglio situation. I feel sad that he is gone, then I think well maybe he is REALLY hurt and will never be the Maggs we all loved. Then I get mad thinking about how messed up all this situation has gotten, especially if he goes to the Flubs! :angry:

Baby Fisk
12-10-2004, 08:51 AM
Is there a link to these remarks?

I'm HOPING for a chance to read a version
of what Maggs said without
AUGMENTATION and INTERPRETATION. :cool:

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 08:54 AM
Maggs is lying. Here's the relevant part of the CBA
Deferred compensation obligations incurred in a Contract executed on or after September 30, 2002 must be fully funded, in an amount equal to the present value of the total deferred compensation obligation, on or before the second July 1 following the championship season in which the deferred compensation is earned. In plain English, deferred money must be "funded" (i.e. set aside) no later than July 1 two years after the money is earned. For example, money deferred for 2005 must be funded by July 1 2007. The money also must be funded at the net present value, meaning any interest accrued between when it's funded and when it's given to the player belongs to the player. In practice, there is no reason not to give it to the player on July 1.

munchman33
12-10-2004, 08:54 AM
Is there a link to these remarks?

I'm HOPING for a chance to read a version
of what Maggs said without
AUGMENTATION and INTERPRETATION. :cool:
On Gagglio wanting all along to be a Flub. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041209maggs,1,3864548.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

On rouge White Sox doctor trying to get fired. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041209soxbrite,1,4525758.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 08:58 AM
But Weil said Ordonez told him to keep it quiet, which he did.

"He said, 'Don't tell the White Sox that I'm going,'" Weil said.

Weil emphasized he was not acting in the capacity of a doctor with the Sox when he arranged for Ordonez to meet Schaden. He said he didn't feel an obligation to tell anyone on the Sox.

"My first obligation is to the athlete," he said.
So where exactly does it say that the SOX and KW sent him?

hose
12-10-2004, 09:01 AM
I really believe that Maggs can't in his mind separate the difference between doctor-patient confidentiality in "private" matters with the fact that the doctor also works for the team.

I have no problem believing that the Sox didn't know about the Vienna operation. I don't hear any threat of a lawsuit from Maggs camp.

Now it's all come down to sour grapes on Magglio's part....sad.

Baby Fisk
12-10-2004, 09:03 AM
On Gagglio wanting all along to be a Flub. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041209maggs,1,3864548.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

On rouge White Sox doctor trying to get fired. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041209soxbrite,1,4525758.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)Gracias. That first article made me want to hurl. :angry:

minastirith67
12-10-2004, 09:11 AM
Gracias. That first article made me want to hurl. :angry:
I think the Cubune wanted it that way. Their goal it seems is to anger Sox fans with these articles. What a respectable organization. Pure class.

Hangar18
12-10-2004, 09:14 AM
the Gist of the article tells me that my worse nitemare is about to come
true ......... Maggs is going to STICK IT TO JERRY, and sign with the Cubs
very shortly. The media will go GaGa and the World Series articles will
start up again. The Media will talk about how "dedicated" cub fans are
with their OOOOO EEEEE OOOOOO chants ..........

Hangar18
12-10-2004, 09:16 AM
hahahha. Its "official". A cubby lover I know says hes going this
weekend to get a "30 Ordonez" cub blue jersey, he wants to be the first.
I hope he gets burned ........... :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 09:18 AM
hahahha. Its "official". A cubby lover I know says hes going this
weekend to get a "30 Ordonez" cub blue jersey, he wants to be the first.
I hope he gets burned ........... :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
Aren't these the same fans that CLAIM they are going to win the World Series every year?

Oh right, THIS IS REALLY THEIR YEAR, right?

Come on!!!!

Frank the Tank
12-10-2004, 09:19 AM
Pretty scalding remarks. Esp the bombshell that KW and the SOX
DID indeed tell Maggs to go to Austria. Nice.
Does anybody else find the irony in Maggs statement that "all the sox care about is money" funny? Well Maggs.....given the fact that you didn't sign a reasonable contract extension to continue playing on the south side earlier this year, it is pretty obvious that the KW and sox are not the only ones only interersted in money.

p.s. I don't want to hear any crap about deferred money. The offer was reasonable and Maggs turned down the sox for one reason....GREED.

anewman35
12-10-2004, 09:19 AM
hahahha. Its "official". A cubby lover I know says hes going this
weekend to get a "30 Ordonez" cub blue jersey, he wants to be the first.
I hope he gets burned ........... :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
You know he was just saying that to annoy you because he probably knows how personally you take take the whole Cubs/Sox thing, right?

anewman35
12-10-2004, 09:20 AM
the Gist of the article tells me that my worse nitemare is about to come
true ......... Maggs is going to STICK IT TO JERRY, and sign with the Cubs
very shortly. The media will go GaGa and the World Series articles will
start up again. The Media will talk about how "dedicated" cub fans are
with their OOOOO EEEEE OOOOOO chants ..........
Who cares? Honestly, what the **** does it matter if the media talks about OOOEEEOOO chants or whatever?

Justafan
12-10-2004, 09:20 AM
:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"I thought the 20 year deferred contract was fair".

Justafan
12-10-2004, 09:23 AM
:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"We preferred the 2nd tier player in Jermaine Dye. He was much cheaper".

anewman35
12-10-2004, 09:26 AM
:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"We preferred the 2nd tier player in Jermaine Dye. He was much cheaper".
Let's assume the team stays as it is now, and that if we'd signed Maggs, we'd have traded Konerko to save cash. I loved Maggs, but, to me, Dye+Konerko is better than Magglio+Gload.

Sox Mobile
12-10-2004, 09:27 AM
I have heard enough from Magglio and management about this fiasco. And you know what?

I dont give a flying flipping **** about the particulars.

Both sides are unreliable and biased. These so called "professionals" couldnt be bothered to clear the air over coffee or a beer like the rest of us peons in the world.

They only care about pointing the last finger and sticking it to each other.

And in the process they are taking the White Sox down and we fans with them.

Wow, I bet this will bring in scores of new White Sox fans.

Right now I wish we all had the choice not to be Sox fans, but we all know we dont, we are stuck in Magglio/Williams/Media/ rub our noses in it hell.

And we thought losing the division was rough, that was a piece of cake.

kittle42
12-10-2004, 09:27 AM
:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"I thought the 20 year deferred contract was fair".
:reinsy
"After all, we came down from our original offer of major-league minimum for as long as I still own the team and deferring the remainder until after."

bennyw41
12-10-2004, 09:28 AM
Maggs said that Boras is a "Players Agent"

Thats ridiculous. I understand he commands top dollars, but if anything, he turns his clients into morons. Last years draft, the top 15 or so had been divided into "Boras/Non Boras" clients.

I like maggs alot, but he is really on spin control now. Switching to Boras in his contract year, and then calling out the sox, and then saying "I have no hard feelings". How can you believe a word he says?

kittle42
12-10-2004, 09:29 AM
"knew."


Thank you.

Hangar18
12-10-2004, 09:30 AM
You know he was just saying that to annoy you because he probably knows how personally you take take the whole Cubs/Sox thing, right?
your probably right .........

hawkeyesrule
12-10-2004, 09:31 AM
Why do we follow this team??? I curse my dad for raising me a Sox fan. It's something I can't change now. Just constant disappointment and frustration. Why can't they compete??? Moreno in Anaheim buys the team and decides he wants to capture some of the SoCal market. Now the Angels are a legit team. Why can't Reinsdorf sell the team or choose to make it competitive? Do the Sox have an impact player right now? No.


Un friggin believeable this team. :angry: :angry: :angry:

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 09:31 AM
Maggs is lying. Here's the relevant part of the CBA
In plain English, deferred money must be "funded" (i.e. set aside) no later than July 1 two years after the money is earned. For example, money deferred for 2005 must be funded by July 1 2007. The money also must be funded at the net present value, meaning any interest accrued between when it's funded and when it's given to the player belongs to the player. In practice, there is no reason not to give it to the player on July 1.

Don't worry, Magglio and his defenders wont let minor facts like this get in their way.

anewman35
12-10-2004, 09:34 AM
Why do we follow this team??? I curse my dad for raising me a Sox fan. It's something I can't change now. Just constant disappointment and frustration. Why can't they compete??? Moreno in Anaheim buys the team and decides he wants to capture some of the SoCal market. Now the Angels are a legit team. Why can't Reinsdorf sell the team or choose to make it competitive? Do the Sox have an impact player right now? No.
Let's see where Moreno is in a couple of years when he realizes that spending like he's doing is losing him tons of money.

FightingBillini
12-10-2004, 09:37 AM
Does anybody else find the irony in Maggs statement that "all the sox care about is money" funny? Well Maggs.....given the fact that you didn't sign a reasonable contract extension to continue playing on the south side earlier this year, it is pretty obvious that the KW and sox are not the only ones only interersted in money.

p.s. I don't want to hear any crap about deferred money. The offer was reasonable and Maggs turned down the sox for one reason....GREED.
EXACTLY. He was greedy. He wanted more money than Vlad. He is no Vad. Guerrero is a better hitter, has more power, is much faster, plays great defense, and has a cannon of an arm. Maggs is just a great hitter.

Another thing... did anyone notice in the gut wrenching Cub-love article Maggs saying the Cubs have good fans, they "fill the park every day". Quite a parting shot at the Sox fans he "loved so dearly". Maybe know he will realize that Reinsdorf is the reason he plays infront of crowds of 18,000 in april. Both sides are lying scum. I just think that Maggs is trying to cover himself, by coming out now and blaming the Sox.

SoxFan78
12-10-2004, 09:37 AM
Let's see where Moreno is in a couple of years when he realizes that spending like he's doing is losing him tons of money.
Maybe he just wants to win...what a concept!

hawkeyesrule
12-10-2004, 09:38 AM
Let's see where Moreno is in a couple of years when he realizes that spending like he's doing is losing him tons of money.
He is investing in the business. If fans don't show up in a few years and he doesn't turn a profit, I am sure he'll com back to earth. Point being that he is trying to field a competitive team. I don't know what is going on here.

FightingBillini
12-10-2004, 09:41 AM
Let's see where Moreno is in a couple of years when he realizes that spending like he's doing is losing him tons of money.
Its not. They fill the park every day. Plus, he will increase the Angels' visibility locally and nationally. He will get them a lucrative TV deal. He will do anything to stay competitive. Not all owners operate like Reinsdorf.

:reinsy
"Hey, I'm all for winning. As long as it is unexpected and happens sporadically due to me not spending money."

SoxFanTillDeath
12-10-2004, 09:43 AM
He is investing in the business. If fans don't show up in a few years and he doesn't turn a profit, I am sure he'll com back to earth. Point being that he is trying to field a competitive team. I don't know what is going on here.

:reinsy
"We can field a competitive team to draw fans too! The fans just have to show up to support us first..."

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 09:45 AM
Its not. They fill the park every day. Plus, he will increase the Angels' visibility locally and nationally. He will get them a lucrative TV deal. He will do anything to stay competitive. Not all owners operate like Reinsdorf.

:reinsy
"Hey, I'm all for winning. As long as it is unexpected and happens sporadically due to me not spending money."It doesn't hurt any that they managed to win a WS right before he bought the team.

Deadguy
12-10-2004, 09:47 AM
Does anybody else find the irony in Maggs statement that "all the sox care about is money" funny? Well Maggs.....given the fact that you didn't sign a reasonable contract extension to continue playing on the south side earlier this year, it is pretty obvious that the KW and sox are not the only ones only interersted in money.

p.s. I don't want to hear any crap about deferred money. The offer was reasonable and Maggs turned down the sox for one reason....GREED.
Exactly. Hypocricy at its finest. These comments smack of sour grapes from a guy who knows he blew the chance at receiving an extra 10s of millions of dollars.

anewman35
12-10-2004, 09:47 AM
Its not. They fill the park every day. Plus, he will increase the Angels' visibility locally and nationally. He will get them a lucrative TV deal. He will do anything to stay competitive. Not all owners operate like Reinsdorf.
Well, we will see. If they have a bad stretch, and the Dodgers start winning, will that keep up?

Jerko
12-10-2004, 09:49 AM
hahahha. Its "official". A cubby lover I know says hes going this
weekend to get a "30 Ordonez" cub blue jersey, he wants to be the first.
I hope he gets burned ........... :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

And he'll probably spell it Ordones to go along with his Woods and Pryor jerseys.

hawkeyesrule
12-10-2004, 09:50 AM
Well, we will see. If they have a bad stretch, and the Dodgers start winning, will that keep up?
They are increasing their core fan base by being competitive. The casual fan is always going to be fair weather. To increase the Sox core fan base immediately, all we need is new ownership. Hell, Reinsdorf should sell the team for a premium, knowing that the season ticket base will increase by at least 30% when he is gone.

IlliniSox
12-10-2004, 09:51 AM
Whatever the offer they made to Maggs (4 years, 5years, 60 mill/70mill, Whatever.), it doesn't take a finance wiz to figure out what that means when the money is deferred WITHOUT INTEREST. THIS NEVER GETS MENTIONED.

This is the art of the JR deal. Only agents, believe it or not, can actually operate a calculator.

60 Million in 2004 dollars becomes <40 real quick when JR starts postdating the checks for 5 years after he croaks!

I'm suprised the Cubune will even report that the "Sox offered Magglio 60 Million (with some monies deferred)".

They might as well say "with some money paid out on green, purple, and pink Monolpoly dollars".

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 09:55 AM
Why start another thread on the SAME subject?


:threadsucks :threadblows:Can we please do SOMETHING about consolidating all these threads before we have six more?

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 09:58 AM
IlliniSox,

You have no clue what you about. According to the CBA, a contract cannot be deferred without interest for more than 2 years, so if it were more than 2 years, it would be with interest.

But the Sox were going to make a contract that violated the CBA, right??

nccwsfan
12-10-2004, 09:58 AM
the Gist of the article tells me that my worse nitemare is about to come
true ......... Maggs is going to STICK IT TO JERRY, and sign with the Cubs
very shortly. The media will go GaGa and the World Series articles will
start up again. The Media will talk about how "dedicated" cub fans are
with their OOOOO EEEEE OOOOOO chants ..........

Or Maggs will sign elsewhere. Either way the end result will be the exact same- Maggs is damaged goods and he will not be the player we've known him to be, certainly not worth 5 yrs/$70 million. Good luck Maggs, but Dye's our guy and I'm ready to turn the page.

kittle42
12-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Let's see where Moreno is in a couple of years when he realizes that spending like he's doing is losing him tons of money.
They won a WS. Who cares where they are?

Jeez some of you people - would you rather have a team that wins for a little while or a team that is consistently .500?

Why don't some of you watch the stock market or something instead of baseball? I try to root for my team on the field more than I do for their business prowess.

CubKilla
12-10-2004, 10:06 AM
IlliniSox,

You have no clue what you about. According to the CBA, a contract cannot be deferred without interest for more than 2 years, so if it were more than 2 years, it would be with interest.

But the Sox were going to make a contract that violated the CBA, right??
No..... Maggs' "supposed" contract probably had the deferred monies in the first two years of the contract. After that, the Sox would, like they did during the '03-'04 offseason, try to dump him when he'd be due to make the big money.

But Maggs is gone. Another pill Sox fans have to deal with.

But I am truly shocked at the number of White Sox fans defending JR and Co. and taking the aforementioned at their word. Blows my mind.

IlliniSox
12-10-2004, 10:06 AM
IlliniSox,

You have no clue what you about. According to the CBA, a contract cannot be deferred without interest for more than 2 years, so if it were more than 2 years, it would be with interest.

But the Sox were going to make a contract that violated the CBA, right??
Per Magglio in today's Sun-Times.

"And it was good money, but it was all deferred,'' he said. "Up to 20 years. I said, 'No; pay me now, and I'll sign now.' They didn't want to do that.''

faneidde
12-10-2004, 10:08 AM
If the Sox lose Mags, Lee, and Konerko this offseason, they are going to be in for a rude awakening at the ticket window. If Mags goes to the Cubs, I am going to need some

:prozac

gosox41
12-10-2004, 10:09 AM
Per Magglio in today's Sun-Times.

"And it was good money, but it was all deferred,'' he said. "Up to 20 years. I said, 'No; pay me now, and I'll sign now.' They didn't want to do that.''
Didn't Magglio say in another article that he fired his agent because he wasn't sticking up for him. Magglio said it's his job to play and the agent's to negotiate. Maybe Magglio doesn't understand business and should do just that. As far as I know it is illegal to defer money in a contract for more then 2 years and not pay interest according to the CBA. Does Magglio know this? Does he care?


Bob

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:09 AM
Per Magglio in today's Sun-Times.

"And it was good money, but it was all deferred,'' he said. "Up to 20 years. I said, 'No; pay me now, and I'll sign now.' They didn't want to do that.''Yes, we all read it. Have YOU read the part of the CBA on deferred compensation? It's only quoted here about 5 different places.

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 10:09 AM
Can we please do SOMETHING about consolidating all these threads before we have six more?
Hope I got them all...

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:10 AM
Hope I got them all...Thanks. Keep at it. There will probably be more coming.:mad:

anewman35
12-10-2004, 10:13 AM
They won a WS. Who cares where they are?

Jeez some of you people - would you rather have a team that wins for a little while or a team that is consistently .500?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I'd totally take the Florida Marlins or Arizona Diamondbacks over the White Sox.

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 10:27 AM
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I'd totally take the Florida Marlins or Arizona Diamondbacks over the White Sox.
Even without JR? :D:

cheeses_h_rice
12-10-2004, 10:30 AM
the Gist of the article tells me that my worse nitemare is about to come
true ......... Maggs is going to STICK IT TO JERRY, and sign with the Cubs
very shortly. The media will go GaGa and the World Series articles will
start up again. The Media will talk about how "dedicated" cub fans are
with their OOOOO EEEEE OOOOOO chants ..........
Henry, the Flubs will still be saddled with their shrunken balloon, 8-figure albatross in RF next year. Unless they decide to bust the budget and put Maggs in LF, I can't see Maggs playing anywhere in Chicago next year. Don't sweat it.

anewman35
12-10-2004, 10:39 AM
Even without JR? :D:
Grrr!

I wish JR would sell just to shut all of you up!

There, can I stop being called a **** now?

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 10:39 AM
Henry, the Flubs will still be saddled with their shrunken balloon, 8-figure albatross in RF next year. Unless they decide to bust the budget and put Maggs in LF, I can't see Maggs playing anywhere in Chicago next year. Don't sweat it.
I hope you are right.

nccwsfan
12-10-2004, 10:40 AM
If the Sox lose Mags, Lee, and Konerko this offseason, they are going to be in for a rude awakening at the ticket window. If Mags goes to the Cubs, I am going to need some

:prozac
Maggs has to prove he can still play with a damaged knee. As of 12/10 there is no proof that he has recovered from the 2 knee surgeries in 5 months time.....

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 10:41 AM
Grrr!

I wish JR would sell just to shut all of you up!

There, can I stop being called a **** now?
Do it out of spite.

Do it for the money.

Do it for the fans.

Do it so people will stop calling you a cheap timid bastard.

Just do it...

:selljerry

Kogs35
12-10-2004, 10:55 AM
Do it out of spite.

Do it for the money.

Do it for the fans.

Do it so people will stop calling you a cheap timid bastard.

Just do it...

:selljerry
maybe the reason jerry wanted his son to get the work for the washington team is that he can go and buy from mlb?

surfdudes
12-10-2004, 11:10 AM
Blah Blah Blah- Same old same old- Who cares if deferred money is 2 years or 20? Who cares if Maggs can play at 80,90, or 100%?
Fact is, just like last year, and the year before, and the year before that, the White Sox organization, Namely, JR, get continually tarnished reputations for being cheap, using smear tactics to lowball salarie offers, talk directly to players about contracts without agents present, invoke diminished skills clauses, etc... etc, etc....
The sum of all this is that the organization is greedy and doesn't have any intention of winning. That's why Maggs says what he does, that's why Todd Walker slammed us, that's why Randy Johnson said no way, That's why we have the relationship we have with Scott Boras....... And that's why we havent been in the WS since 1959.....................
Every offseason there are 3 or 4 blurbs about why someone (who eventually winds up on another club) has been rubbed the wrong way......
In the real world, if you operate a business that way, you are out of business......

Foulke29
12-10-2004, 11:21 AM
Blah Blah Blah- Same old same old- Who cares if deferred money is 2 years or 20? Who cares if Maggs can play at 80,90, or 100%?
Fact is, just like last year, and the year before, and the year before that, the White Sox organization, Namely, JR, get continually tarnished reputations for being cheap, using smear tactics to lowball salarie offers, talk directly to players about contracts without agents present, invoke diminished skills clauses, etc... etc, etc....
The sum of all this is that the organization is greedy and doesn't have any intention of winning. That's why Maggs says what he does, that's why Todd Walker slammed us, that's why Randy Johnson said no way, That's why we have the relationship we have with Scott Boras....... And that's why we havent been in the WS since 1959.....................
Every offseason there are 3 or 4 blurbs about why someone (who eventually winds up on another club) has been rubbed the wrong way......
In the real world, if you operate a business that way, you are out of business......
You know - I'm tired of having a bad team or one that finishes just short just like everyone else here, but if we would step back and think for a minute - what's the matter with Jerry trying to keep contracts on earth and find new ways to pay players without raising mediocrity's payday every year?

The easy thing to do is to say - let's go the way of Steinbrenner and pay pay pay pay, but at some point the bubble's going to burst and either owners won't be able to afford to pay players' ridiculous salaries or the fans won't be able to afford to pay the ridiculous ticket prices.

Players' salaries are rising at an expodential rate. The Players Association is growing in power and baseball fans are the ones suffering for it. I'm not saying that Reinsdorf need be a cheap turd - which I know he's done in the past, but there needs to be a way to put leashes on the monsters that the Players Union has created. If JR were a brand new owner, I'd say shame on you - run the team to win, but he comes from an era in which the owners had more control - right or wrong - I think he's really trying to preserve baseball as the 'way it used to be.'

All that said - Magglio is a prickling and completely unprofessional for making his comments - especially considering that in the same breath he said that it's his job to play baseball - whatever. F-ing troll! Go play for the Cubs, and I hope you play healthy for the rest of your career, but I hope your career is flushed down the toilet and that you never have a productive year again - ala Bo Jackson style!

FJA
12-10-2004, 11:40 AM
You know - I'm tired of having a bad team or one that finishes just short just like everyone else here, but if we would step back and think for a minute - what's the matter with Jerry trying to keep contracts on earth and find new ways to pay players without raising mediocrity's payday every year?

The easy thing to do is to say - let's go the way of Steinbrenner and pay pay pay pay, but at some point the bubble's going to burst and either owners won't be able to afford to pay players' ridiculous salaries or the fans won't be able to afford to pay the ridiculous ticket prices.

Players' salaries are rising at an expodential rate. The Players Association is growing in power and baseball fans are the ones suffering for it. I'm not saying that Reinsdorf need be a cheap turd - which I know he's done in the past, but there needs to be a way to put leashes on the monsters that the Players Union has created. If JR were a brand new owner, I'd say shame on you - run the team to win, but he comes from an era in which the owners had more control - right or wrong - I think he's really trying to preserve baseball as the 'way it used to be.'

All that said - Magglio is a prickling and completely unprofessional for making his comments - especially considering that in the same breath he said that it's his job to play baseball - whatever. F-ing troll! Go play for the Cubs, and I hope you play healthy for the rest of your career, but I hope your career is flushed down the toilet and that you never have a productive year again - ala Bo Jackson style!
Bingo. Reinsdorf is cheap and the hands of the Sox are not clean in the way they handled this whole thing. So what else is new?

Maggs was less than forthcoming and, under Boras, downright hostile to what was undeniably much more money than he was worth. Such is the world of contract negotiaion.

Anyone who can honestly say the Sox should have put a top offer on the table after the injury and before any real confirmation of Maggs' health is nuts. That kind of risk is not worth anywhere close to what Maggs was asking. You can't really blame him for trying, because he's in a really bad position right now, and he might as well go with the loyalty angle, but the way he has conducted himself of late is bad for everyone.

Bad for the Sox because, whether warranted or not, his comments reinforce a bad reputation that continually keeps us from getting top players.

Bad for Maggs because his desperation is pretty transparent and will likely lessen his value further. Anyone who, at this point, believes either Maggs or Boras knows 100% that he will be ready for the season hasn't been listening.

Bad for us Sox fans because it worsens the reputation of the team and because Maggs let his emotions get the best of him to take what he had to know was a dig at Sox fans (or at least something that we would take as a dig at us). I think all of us wished him the best despite his shady dealings before he opened his mouth, but I'm not so sure that is still the case.

bobj4400
12-10-2004, 12:06 PM
Whatever the offer they made to Maggs (4 years, 5years, 60 mill/70mill, Whatever.), it doesn't take a finance wiz to figure out what that means when the money is deferred WITHOUT INTEREST. THIS NEVER GETS MENTIONED.

This is the art of the JR deal. Only agents, believe it or not, can actually operate a calculator.

60 Million in 2004 dollars becomes <40 real quick when JR starts postdating the checks for 5 years after he croaks!

I'm suprised the Cubune will even report that the "Sox offered Magglio 60 Million (with some monies deferred)".

They might as well say "with some money paid out on green, purple, and pink Monolpoly dollars".Any deferred money longer than 2 years must be paid with interest. It is in the CBA. I love how everyone throws **** against the wall to see what will stick and then use that to indict the organization. Dont get me wrong, I am sick to my stomach and at wit's end with this team. I am cursing my father for raising me to love this team and have come to the realization we will never win anything until JR sells or after I keel over and die (more likely). But false accusations dont get us anywhere.

nitetrain8601
12-10-2004, 12:07 PM
Bingo. Reinsdorf is cheap and the hands of the Sox are not clean in the way they handled this whole thing. So what else is new?

Maggs was less than forthcoming and, under Boras, downright hostile to what was undeniably much more money than he was worth. Such is the world of contract negotiaion.

Anyone who can honestly say the Sox should have put a top offer on the table after the injury and before any real confirmation of Maggs' health is nuts. That kind of risk is not worth anywhere close to what Maggs was asking. You can't really blame him for trying, because he's in a really bad position right now, and he might as well go with the loyalty angle, but the way he has conducted himself of late is bad for everyone.

Bad for the Sox because, whether warranted or not, his comments reinforce a bad reputation that continually keeps us from getting top players.

Bad for Maggs because his desperation is pretty transparent and will likely lessen his value further. Anyone who, at this point, believes either Maggs or Boras knows 100% that he will be ready for the season hasn't been listening.

Bad for us Sox fans because it worsens the reputation of the team and because Maggs let his emotions get the best of him to take what he had to know was a dig at Sox fans (or at least something that we would take as a dig at us). I think all of us wished him the best despite his shady dealings before he opened his mouth, but I'm not so sure that is still the case.
Jermaine Dye and Freddy Garcia and Ozzie will help us get those big name players. The thing is we have to open up the cap a little bit more. I want every Sox fan to go to all the games they can. Many people know that Maggs is being better and barely is treading water.

steff
12-10-2004, 12:13 PM
Pretty scalding remarks. Esp the bombshell that KW and the SOX
DID indeed tell Maggs to go to Austria. Nice.


Didn't read the article I see..

steff
12-10-2004, 12:16 PM
Per Magglio in today's Sun-Times.

"And it was good money, but it was all deferred,'' he said. "Up to 20 years. I said, 'No; pay me now, and I'll sign now.' They didn't want to do that.''


Which is a lie.

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 12:19 PM
Which is a lie.
Steff,

Is there anyway you can share with us what you have hear about this?

Thanks.

pinwheels3530
12-10-2004, 12:22 PM
What's with people this morning. We have like 9 threads on two issues.

Because Magglio was the one of the two most popular players on the Sox:kukoo:

wdelaney72
12-10-2004, 12:24 PM
My former favorite White Sox player, Magglio Ordonez = Little Bitch

I don't care if he's right and the Sox did know about Austria. Shut up, go sign your contract, and stop being a rat. This guy has made MILLIONS to play a game. We're all well aware of the priorities of Uncle Jerry. He's guilty as charged, but Magglio is not innocent here either.

pinwheels3530
12-10-2004, 12:27 PM
Let's assume the team stays as it is now, and that if we'd signed Maggs, we'd have traded Konerko to save cash. I loved Maggs, but, to me, Dye+Konerko is better than Magglio+Gload.

We still might trade Korneko anyway this is JR's WhiteSox were talking about!!

longshot7
12-10-2004, 12:33 PM
Let's see where Moreno is in a couple of years when he realizes that spending like he's doing is losing him tons of money.
Moreno is debt-free and the Angels drew over 3 million last year - that's a surefire recipe for losing money, huh?

Flight #24
12-10-2004, 12:35 PM
Paraphrasing...

Magglio: "Sox wanted to defer $$$ like 20 years without interest"
Truth: CBA doesn't allow that

Magglio: "Sox recommended the dr in Austria to me"
Truth: The doc recommended it, but Magglio ASKED HIM NOT TO TELL THE TEAM

Magglio (via Boras): "I'm totally healed & ready to play right now"
Truth (per Maggs): Not totally healed, can run but not jump

Magglio (via Boras): "It was minor surgery"
Truth: It WAS minor, in the sense that something requiring experimental surgery not approved in the US can be considered minor

Magglio (via Boras): "The injury was relatively minor"
Truth (per Lowell Weill): The injury might be career threatening

Magglio: "Sox didn't make me feel wanted, I didn't feel like they wanted me to stay"
Truth: What about a long-term contract is it that screams "We don't want you"? Remember - there was no request for a no-trade or complaint about one not being in the deal.


Is there any doubt about who's lying here? Sure, the Sox aren't 100% clean, but Maggs/Boras are rolling in filth by comparison.

doublem23
12-10-2004, 12:39 PM
Nice post, #24. Real good summary of what's going on.

Baby Fisk
12-10-2004, 12:41 PM
Nice post, #24. Real good summary of what's going on.You beat me to it.

Lotta spin going on right now. The truth is out there. Trust no one. I want to believe. Scully! [*lapsing into incoherent X-Files-isms*]

steff
12-10-2004, 12:50 PM
Steff,

Is there anyway you can share with us what you have hear about this?

Thanks.

Aside from a couple team members personal feelings that I can't share.. I've heard all the same that's coming out now. The one huge difference though is when Maggs contacted Boras about his services. I thought I posted it previously, but 3 different people (one of which works for another agent who was contacted about representing maggs just prior to the '03 season) have said that Maggs was set on Boras when the Sox responded with the 5th year request.. which he turned down.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2004, 01:20 PM
My only comments are as follows:

It is unfortunate that the organization continues to get hammered PR wise because they simply can't figure out a way to part with popular Sox players in a professional way.

Regardless of if you think the players are wrong or the organization is wrong the list keeps growing...Fisk, McDowell, Fernandez, Ventura one P.R. disaster after another.

When you are desperately trying to attract fans this is not the way to do it.

Anewman:

The Angels drew three million this past season, had one of the best records in the league, made the playoffs and according to former Sox and Angels catcher Ed Herrmann drew so many people to their off season 'Angel-Fest' that they had to move it into Anaheim Stadium ,on the field, to accomodate them.

How is that bad?

As far as 'going broke,' you mean like the Diamondbacks? Who have signed Troy Glaus for 45 million and are about to sign Russ Ortiz for 34 million and Royce Clayton?

Obviously someone is wrong...either the D-back owners or perhaps their 'bookkeepers?' (nudge,nudge,wink,wink...say NO more!)

Lip

Kilroy
12-10-2004, 01:52 PM
Whatever the offer they made to Maggs (4 years, 5years, 60 mill/70mill, Whatever.), it doesn't take a finance wiz to figure out what that means when the money is deferred WITHOUT INTEREST. THIS NEVER GETS MENTIONED.Some people just haven't mastered the art of paying attention.

Here it is, one more time, for those who may have missed it, Courtesy of Ol' No. 2:


Deferred compensation obligations incurred in a Contract executed on or after September 30, 2002 must be fully funded, in an amount equal to the present value of the total deferred compensation obligation, on or before the second July 1 following the championship season in which the deferred compensation is earned.

In plain English, deferred money must be "funded" (i.e. set aside) no later than July 1 two years after the money is earned. For example, money deferred for 2005 must be funded by July 1 2007. The money also must be funded at the net present value, meaning any interest accrued between when it's funded and when it's given to the player belongs to the player. In practice, there is no reason not to give it to the player on July 1.
Catching on yet, IlliniSox?

gosox41
12-10-2004, 02:22 PM
Some people just haven't mastered the art of paying attention.

Here it is, one more time, for those who may have missed it, Courtesy of Ol' No. 2:


[color=black]Catching on yet, IlliniSox?

So the Sox offered Magglio an illegal contract in hopes that he and Boras would sign it and the Union would never notice, right?

:D: :D:


Bob

anewman35
12-10-2004, 02:36 PM
Anewman:

The Angels drew three million this past season, had one of the best records in the league, made the playoffs and according to former Sox and Angels catcher Ed Herrmann drew so many people to their off season 'Angel-Fest' that they had to move it into Anaheim Stadium ,on the field, to accomodate them.

How is that bad?

It's not. Right now, everything is working out great. Maybe it will keep going great, I don't know (I really don't care). I'm just saying, I can think of plenty of owners who came in, spent a ton of money, and then stopped after a few years. I just don't think you can fairly judge an owner after 2 years or whatever.

petekat
12-10-2004, 02:47 PM
yeah great summary. Magglio hope you make it to the no side so we can throw things at you from the LF bleachers. Seriously, good luck, dont let the door hit you in the knee.

In the meantime, that $14 is going to look good if Kenny can stretch it as far as he's done so far...$6.5 so far to fill two holes....


Paraphrasing...

Magglio: "Sox wanted to defer $$$ like 20 years without interest"
Truth: CBA doesn't allow that

Magglio: "Sox recommended the dr in Austria to me"
Truth: The doc recommended it, but Magglio ASKED HIM NOT TO TELL THE TEAM

Magglio (via Boras): "I'm totally healed & ready to play right now"
Truth (per Maggs): Not totally healed, can run but not jump

Magglio (via Boras): "It was minor surgery"
Truth: It WAS minor, in the sense that something requiring experimental surgery not approved in the US can be considered minor

Magglio (via Boras): "The injury was relatively minor"
Truth (per Lowell Weill): The injury might be career threatening

Magglio: "Sox didn't make me feel wanted, I didn't feel like they wanted me to stay"
Truth: What about a long-term contract is it that screams "We don't want you"? Remember - there was no request for a no-trade or complaint about one not being in the deal.


Is there any doubt about who's lying here? Sure, the Sox aren't 100% clean, but Maggs/Boras are rolling in filth by comparison.

Man Soo Lee
12-10-2004, 02:57 PM
In plain English, deferred money must be "funded" (i.e. set aside) no later than July 1 two years after the money is earned. For example, money deferred for 2005 must be funded by July 1 2007. The money also must be funded at the net present value, meaning any interest accrued between when it's funded and when it's given to the player belongs to the player. In practice, there is no reason not to give it to the player on July 1. There is nothing in the CBA (http://roadsidephotos.com/baseball/BasicAgreement.pdf) that suggests a player would be entitled to accrued interest. The player gets whatever his contract says he will. The longer the money is deferred the less cash it costs the team to fund the present value.

As far as I can tell, there are no limits on the amount of deferred money in a contract or the length of time that it can be deferred. If someone can find something in the CBA that indicates otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Hangar18
12-10-2004, 02:57 PM
that was a good post, paraphrased or not,
does keep things in perspective on this terrible day to be a Sox Fan.

Baby Fisk
12-10-2004, 02:58 PM
that was a good post, paraphrased or not,
does keep things in perspective on this terrible day to be a Sox Fan.WHITE SOX BASEBALL: A LIFETIME OF TERRIBLE DAYS

munchman33
12-10-2004, 03:13 PM
this terrible day to be a Sox Fan.
How so? We signed Jermaine Dye yesterday. I don't think there's a bookie out there that would take a bet saying Magglio would have a better year next year.

I'm still riding yesterday's high. Magglio's bull**** whining about not getting millions more than he's worth isn't gonna steal that thunder.

Flight #24
12-10-2004, 03:22 PM
You know, the more I think about it, the more it seems like Maggs might just be done, or close to it. The whole arb thing with the Sox, the "workout", and all of Boras's comments seem like a last gasp attempt to fool the Sox into offering arb because no one will make him any realistic contract offer once they look at that knee.

IMO, Maggs is going to end up with a Jon Lieber-like contract with a minimal salary for 2005 and then an almost 100% incentive-based salary for 2006.

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 03:27 PM
You know, the more I think about it, the more it seems like Maggs might just be done, or close to it. The whole arb thing with the Sox, the "workout", and all of Boras's comments seem like a last gasp attempt to fool the Sox into offering arb because no one will make him any realistic contract offer once they look at that knee.

IMO, Maggs is going to end up with a Jon Lieber-like contract with a minimal salary for 2005 and then an almost 100% incentive-based salary for 2006.
Strictly based on what I have read I would have to completely agree. Some of Maggs comments almost seem wistful or like he is blusteing just to sound brave. What's with all the flubbie talk? I mean of course he will sign with whoever offers him the best contract. Why the need to take shots at the Sox all of a sudden and make it seem like they are the bad guy?

He sounds like someone trying to bluff his way through a rough situation.

Of course if you are sitting on 4,5,6,7,9 in Texs holdem and you are down to your last few chips, it never hurts to go all in...

Flight #24
12-10-2004, 03:33 PM
Strictly based on what I have read I would have to completely agree. Some of Maggs comments almost seem wistful or like he is blusteing just to sound brave. What's with all the flubbie talk? I mean of course he will sign with whoever offers him the best contract. Why the need to take shots at the Sox all of a sudden and make it seem like they are the bad guy?

He sounds like someone trying to bluff his way through a rough situation.

Of course if you are sitting on 4,5,6,7,9 in Texs holdem and you are down to your last few chips, it never hurts to go all in...
If it's true, then while I think he's behaved terribly, I can somewhat understand it. Desperate men do desperate things, especially when their livelihood disappears right before their eyes, and right when they were about to cash in.

Was he greedy & took the risk to try and get a bigger deal? Sure. But thinking back to what he's done for the organization, if he can't play again, I will feel sorry for him.

OurBitchinMinny
12-10-2004, 03:38 PM
Hes right. The way this team and owner in particular treats his star players is flat out ridiculous. Look what the bastard did to the bulls. JR is a complete and total ass and the sooner his ties to this team end the better.

SoxBoy14
12-10-2004, 03:40 PM
Totally concur Minny. I feel for Mags a bit. Injuries are part of the business. Just ask the greatest 3d baseman in the history of the White Sox before Robin Ventura - KEVIN BELL.

StillMissOzzie
12-10-2004, 03:41 PM
Paraphrasing...

Magglio: "Sox wanted to defer $$$ like 20 years without interest"
Truth: CBA doesn't allow that

Magglio: "Sox recommended the dr in Austria to me"
Truth: The doc recommended it, but Magglio ASKED HIM NOT TO TELL THE TEAM

Magglio (via Boras): "I'm totally healed & ready to play right now"
Truth (per Maggs): Not totally healed, can run but not jump

Magglio (via Boras): "It was minor surgery"
Truth: It WAS minor, in the sense that something requiring experimental surgery not approved in the US can be considered minor

Magglio (via Boras): "The injury was relatively minor"
Truth (per Lowell Weill): The injury might be career threatening

Magglio: "Sox didn't make me feel wanted, I didn't feel like they wanted me to stay"
Truth: What about a long-term contract is it that screams "We don't want you"? Remember - there was no request for a no-trade or complaint about one not being in the deal.


Is there any doubt about who's lying here? Sure, the Sox aren't 100% clean, but Maggs/Boras are rolling in filth by comparison.
Flight #24, could you send this to both of the sports editors in town? They both obviously need a dose of reality. However, I also agree with one of Lip's comments - just once I'd like to see the Sox and a major player part company without a boatload of acrimony. There's enough ill will to go around for both sides. Just once, I'd like to see the Sox thank someone for their past service, wish them luck, and move on without the "back 'o me hand".

Maggs, you and/or your agent, Bora$' actions prevented arbitration from happening. BLAME NOBODY ELSE!
Maggs, you turned down an eminently fair offer that COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN DEFERERED 20 YEARS, so don't have us believe that it's only JR that is all about the money.
Maggs, you are the one who hired a new agent who's deceptive, unethical negotiating tactics drove a wedge between your camp and the Sox.

SMO
:angry:

StillMissOzzie
12-10-2004, 03:44 PM
I thought I posted it previously, but 3 different people (one of which works for another agent who was contacted about representing maggs just prior to the '03 season) have said that Maggs was set on Boras when the Sox responded with the 5th year request.. which he turned down.
What 5th year request is that, steff - for the Sox to hold the option on the 5th year, instead of being guaranteed?

SMO
:dunno:

tstrike2000
12-10-2004, 03:46 PM
We can all :angry: about the Maggs situation because it's gotten so blown out of proportion it's sick. A matter of two wrongs don't make a right. Of course Maggs, fueled even more by Borass, is coming out in the media and is angry about the Sox. Maggs had a chance to step up and be the bigger man, but he chose not the to do that. Doesn't matter now because Maggs is no longer going to be in a White Sox uniform. Our focus now needs to be a front line pitcher and not trade a pitcher for a pitcher. We will probably have to trade Lee or Konerko to do it. We also need a 2nd baseman/leadoff hitter. If we wait any longer, there'll be no more good starting pitchers left.

steff
12-10-2004, 03:47 PM
What 5th year request is that, steff - for the Sox to hold the option on the 5th year, instead of being guaranteed?

SMO
:dunno:

The deal was 4 years the first time around. He wanted 5.. they gave 5.. with incentives.. but they gave 5.

nasox
12-10-2004, 03:51 PM
Wow, leave WSI for awhile and then come back, and the level of intelligence around here has dropped. Geez people, read the thread before you post, know what's going on. I think around 10 people believed magglio and quoted the article as far as the 20 years deffered is concerned. Read the posts, that is impossible. And flight, that was a great post.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 04:51 PM
There is nothing in the CBA (http://roadsidephotos.com/baseball/BasicAgreement.pdf) that suggests a player would be entitled to accrued interest. The player gets whatever his contract says he will. The longer the money is deferred the less cash it costs the team to fund the present value.

As far as I can tell, there are no limits on the amount of deferred money in a contract or the length of time that it can be deferred. If someone can find something in the CBA that indicates otherwise, I'd love to see it.Read it again, and engage brain this time. There's nothing that specifically says you have to give it to the player on a certain date. But if you have to fund it on July 1, what, exactly is the point of NOT giving it to the player on that date? And it has to be funded as the net present value as of that date. That means that interest accrued after that date gets compounded into the total. That's what a NPV is.

Nick@Nite
12-10-2004, 04:54 PM
:tomatoaward.

Man Soo Lee
12-10-2004, 06:05 PM
Read it again, and engage brain this time. There's nothing that specifically says you have to give it to the player on a certain date. But if you have to fund it on July 1, what, exactly is the point of NOT giving it to the player on that date? And it has to be funded as the net present value as of that date. That means that interest accrued after that date gets compounded into the total. That's what a NPV is. The fact that it is funded at present value is the point. Say Matt Clement loves Chicago and is willing to sign a one-year deal for the league minimum with $10 Mil deferred for five years. He's going to get $10 Mil in 2010 regardless of the interest rate that JR gets.

Present value=Future Value*(1+i)^-n, where i=interest rate per period and n=number of periods. For the sake of this argument, Reinsdorf funds it immediately at a 10% annual interest rate. To have the $10 Mil in five years at that rate, he only has to invest a little over $6.2 Mil. The $6.2 Mil is the present value referred to in the CBA passage.

The longer it's deferred, the less it takes to fund it. The owner saves money and can use the cash for other purposes. The player loses the chance to make the interest himself. That's why players with leverage generally don't accept deferred contracts.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 06:37 PM
The fact that it is funded at present value is the point. Say Matt Clement loves Chicago and is willing to sign a one-year deal for the league minimum with $10 Mil deferred for five years. He's going to get $10 Mil in 2010 regardless of the interest rate that JR gets.

Present value=Future Value*(1+i)^-n, where i=interest rate per period and n=number of periods. For the sake of this argument, Reinsdorf funds it immediately at a 10% annual interest rate. To have the $10 Mil in five years at that rate, he only has to invest a little over $6.2 Mil. The $6.2 Mil is the present value referred to in the CBA passage.

The longer it's deferred, the less it takes to fund it. The owner saves money and can use the cash for other purposes. The player loses the chance to make the interest himself. That's why players with leverage generally don't accept deferred contracts.Wrong. It has to be fully funded at the present value on July 1, 2007.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 07:45 PM
Has anyone heard from Beckett on this stuff? I'd be really interested to hear what he knows about this shockwave treatment and Iloprost.

Man Soo Lee
12-10-2004, 07:45 PM
Wrong. It has to be fully funded at the present value on July 1, 2007.
It doesn't have to be funded until then, but I assume it could be done earlier. Do you agree that the present value is less than $10 Mil in my example?

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 07:52 PM
It doesn't have to be funded until then, but I assume it could be done earlier. Do you agree that the present value is less than $10 Mil in my example?It could be done earlier, but why would they do that? The whole idea is to take advantage of the discounting by deferring it. Yes, it's present value is less than $10M, but it has to be funded at the present value on July 1 of the appropriate year. Because it's the present value at that time, any interest accrued after that date goes on the total. Since the team has to fund it on July 1, there's no point in not giving it to the player on that date. The FUTURE value can be any amount you like, depending on how far out you want to calculate it, but it's just a theoretical game. The only value that really matters is what it's worth at the time it's handed over.

Man Soo Lee
12-10-2004, 08:11 PM
It could be done earlier, but why would they do that? The whole idea is to take advantage of the discounting by deferring it. Yes, it's present value is less than $10M, but it has to be funded at the present value on July 1 of the appropriate year. Because it's the present value at that time, any interest accrued after that date goes on the total. Since the team has to fund it on July 1, there's no point in not giving it to the player on that date. The FUTURE value can be any amount you like, depending on how far out you want to calculate it, but it's just a theoretical game. The only value that really matters is what it's worth at the time it's handed over. It's not a theoretical game. The future value is the amount to be paid to the player, the deferred salary ($10 Mil in my example). The team invests the money somewhere where it builds interest (10% annually in my example). Then, they figure out the present value of the $10 Mil at that interest rate. That is what must be funded by July 1 of the second year. The reason they don't pay the player on that date is because they don't have $10 Mil set aside.

If they have the cash on hand to fund it before the two years, the present value is even lower.

PaulDrake
12-10-2004, 08:27 PM
No..... Maggs' "supposed" contract probably had the deferred monies in the first two years of the contract. After that, the Sox would, like they did during the '03-'04 offseason, try to dump him when he'd be due to make the big money.

But Maggs is gone. Another pill Sox fans have to deal with.

But I am truly shocked at the number of White Sox fans defending JR and Co. and taking the aforementioned at their word. Blows my mind. Blows my mind too.

Flight #24
12-10-2004, 08:29 PM
Blows my mind too.

I suppose it makes more sense to believe Maggs/Boras - who have directly contradicted pretty much everything they've said, or had other independents (i.e. not KW/JR) prove it false?:?:

jamteh
12-10-2004, 08:40 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting that all of the sudden Magglio was able to be reached by the press? I thought he was in hibernation... If he wanted to be offered salary arbitration so badly, wouldn't he have gone to the press last week and said so if he felt the communication between his agent and the Sox was going nowhere? Boras is a master manipulator, and Magglio is his puppet. It's very twisted stuff if you ask me. :mad:

Flight #24
12-10-2004, 08:43 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting that all of the sudden Magglio was able to be reached by the press? I thought he was in hibernation... If he wanted to be offered salary arbitration so badly, wouldn't he have gone to the press last week and said so if he felt the communication between his agent and the Sox was going nowhere? Boras is a master manipulator, and Magglio is his puppet. It's very twisted stuff if you ask me. :mad:

If Maggs wanted to be offered arbitration, he knew quite well what to do - let the Sox docs examine him. Except it seems likely that he also knew if he did let them examine him, he'd never get a contract. He tried to play chicken and get them to offer it so he could accept - but the Sox didn't bite. Unfortunately, that seems like it was his only shot at big money. Now he'll have to settle for a small dollar/incentive-laden contract.

Man Soo Lee
12-11-2004, 02:34 AM
Ol' No. 2-

Returning to this thread after some :gulp:, I realized that we were discussing the differences between deferred without interest and deferred with interest.

I assumed that without interest was more common, but I might be wrong. Al Leiter's new contract has $5 Mil deferred without interest. Sheffield also has money deferred without interest. ARod will be paid deferred money with interest through 2025, but the Yankees apparently got the interest rate knocked down when they made the trade.

My main point was that there is no restiction in the CBA on the way a team and player can structure a deferred money contract. None of us knows what the original offer to Maggs was like.

gosox41
12-11-2004, 09:10 AM
It's not a theoretical game. The future value is the amount to be paid to the player, the deferred salary ($10 Mil in my example). The team invests the money somewhere where it builds interest (10% annually in my example). Then, they figure out the present value of the $10 Mil at that interest rate. That is what must be funded by July 1 of the second year. The reason they don't pay the player on that date is because they don't have $10 Mil set aside.

If they have the cash on hand to fund it before the two years, the present value is even lower.
Where can I get in on this 10% return thing per year for the next few years?



Bob

StillMissOzzie
12-11-2004, 05:38 PM
I suppose it makes more sense to believe Maggs/Boras - who have directly contradicted pretty much everything they've said, or had other independents (i.e. not KW/JR) prove it false?:?:
:tool
"I am invoking my power as commisioner to make changes for the overall best interests of baseball by decertifying Scott Boras as an agent of MLB players."

flo-B-flo
12-11-2004, 06:38 PM
Blah Blah Blah- Same old same old- Who cares if deferred money is 2 years or 20? Who cares if Maggs can play at 80,90, or 100%?
Fact is, just like last year, and the year before, and the year before that, the White Sox organization, Namely, JR, get continually tarnished reputations for being cheap, using smear tactics to lowball salarie offers, talk directly to players about contracts without agents present, invoke diminished skills clauses, etc... etc, etc....
The sum of all this is that the organization is greedy and doesn't have any intention of winning. That's why Maggs says what he does, that's why Todd Walker slammed us, that's why Randy Johnson said no way, That's why we have the relationship we have with Scott Boras....... And that's why we havent been in the WS since 1959.....................
Every offseason there are 3 or 4 blurbs about why someone (who eventually winds up on another club) has been rubbed the wrong way......
In the real world, if you operate a business that way, you are out of business...... This has certainly been riensy's m.o. No one walks away fom the Sox happy.

flo-B-flo
12-11-2004, 06:43 PM
My only comments are as follows:

It is unfortunate that the organization continues to get hammered PR wise because they simply can't figure out a way to part with popular Sox players in a professional way.

Regardless of if you think the players are wrong or the organization is wrong the list keeps growing...Fisk, McDowell, Fernandez, Ventura one P.R. disaster after another.

When you are desperately trying to attract fans this is not the way to do it.



Lip Been saying this to fellow Sox fans in my family for years. The organization never stops looking baffoonish. If you piss them off, the fans won't come.

Ol' No. 2
12-12-2004, 10:34 AM
Ol' No. 2-

Returning to this thread after some :gulp:, I realized that we were discussing the differences between deferred without interest and deferred with interest.

I assumed that without interest was more common, but I might be wrong. Al Leiter's new contract has $5 Mil deferred without interest. Sheffield also has money deferred without interest. ARod will be paid deferred money with interest through 2025, but the Yankees apparently got the interest rate knocked down when they made the trade.

My main point was that there is no restiction in the CBA on the way a team and player can structure a deferred money contract. None of us knows what the original offer to Maggs was like.It has to be funded on the second July 1 at the NET PRESENT VALUE AT THAT TIME. Which means it can be without interest up to that point (and usually is), but after that time any accrued interest goes to the player. Since there's no reason to defer money with interest, the net effect is to not have deferrals past that point.