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View Full Version : Maaglio issues getting a little clearer...


gosox41
12-10-2004, 09:27 AM
though there are some quesitons I have.

In today's Trib. it came out that the White Sox organization never recommonded Magglio go to Vienna for surgery. It was a podiatrist, Dr. Weil, who was not working in any capacity for the Sox who suggested it.

When KW first ehard this he denied it because he didn't know. It wasn't until after KW was questioned that Magglio went to KW and told him he recommend Magglio go to Vienna.

So to my questions:


1. Does this make Boras a liar for saying the White Sox recommended the doctor?

2. Magglio went to have his meniscus fixed in Austria. How serious of a knee injury is a torn meniscus? How long does it generally take to recover from one? Also, why couldn't a US doctor do it here if it was such a basic injury?

We're still not getting all the facts about this.



Bob

munchman33
12-10-2004, 09:30 AM
though there are some quesitons I have.

In today's Trib. it came out that the White Sox organization never recommonded Magglio go to Vienna for surgery. It was a podiatrist, Dr. Weil, who was not working in any capacity for the Sox who suggested it.

When KW first ehard this he denied it because he didn't know. It wasn't until after KW was questioned that Magglio went to KW and told him he recommend Magglio go to Vienna.

So to my questions:


1. Does this make Boras a liar for saying the White Sox recommended the doctor?

2. Magglio went to have his meniscus fixed in Austria. How serious of a knee injury is a torn meniscus? How long does it generally take to recover from one? Also, why couldn't a US doctor do it here if it was such a basic injury?

We're still not getting all the facts about this.



Bob1. Yes, Boras really spun this.
2. The surgery is illegal here. There's no way an organization would have backed the procedure. My guess is that doctor will be terminated.

As for seriousness? Five years ago, I partially tore my meniscus. I needed six months of physical therapy to learn to walk again. Just for a partial tear. Pretty serious stuff.

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 10:09 AM
1. Yes, Boras really spun this.
2. The surgery is illegal here. There's no way an organization would have backed the procedure. My guess is that doctor will be terminated.

As for seriousness? Five years ago, I partially tore my meniscus. I needed six months of physical therapy to learn to walk again. Just for a partial tear. Pretty serious stuff.

So basically here's what happened according to how I see it:

-KW offers Maggs the 5 years 70 mil with part of it deferred, but the contract still having significant value and probably worth more than he would have gotten
-Maggs turns it down
-Maggs gets injured
-Maggs got the first surgery
-Found out his situation was pretty serious
-Consulted Frank about who to see
-Saw Frank's podiatrist
-Podiatrist recommended a surgery or treatment that is not allowed to be done in the United States
-KW hears about this and states what he genuinely thought was the truth
-Maggs got scared that his market value was going down a lot with those comments
-Maggs hires Boras to Cover his rear for him
-Boras lies to the media about Maggs' situation
-KW tries to be amicable, but Boras wont let the GM have a medical inspection of the player under contract
-KW is forced to not offer arbitration, not wanting to be on the hook for 11.2 million for a potentially injured player
-Maggs bitches to the media

This is the sequence of events that is apparent to me. I could be wrong on some of them, but I think that magglio is the one at fault here.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:34 AM
1. Yes, Boras really spun this.
2. The surgery is illegal here. There's no way an organization would have backed the procedure. My guess is that doctor will be terminated.

As for seriousness? Five years ago, I partially tore my meniscus. I needed six months of physical therapy to learn to walk again. Just for a partial tear. Pretty serious stuff.Surgery to repair a meniscus tear is illegal? No, it's not. That's what he had last June. If what he had is illegal here, it wasn't a simple meniscus repair. So what was it?

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 10:40 AM
Surgery to repair a meniscus tear is illegal? No, it's not. That's what he had last June. If what he had is illegal here, it wasn't a simple meniscus repair. So what was it?
The surgery in Vienna is the one he is talking about.

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:41 AM
The surgery in Vienna is the one he is talking about.I understand that. But he's saying it was for a simple meniscus tear. That's not illegal in the US. Now, if it was for something else....

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 10:45 AM
I understand that. But he's saying it was for a simple meniscus tear. That's not illegal in the US. Now, if it was for something else....
The Sun-Times article states that the procedure he got included injections of a medication approved in the U.S. ONLY to treat blood pressure. So he would of NEVER got that procedure here for the tear.

Irishsox1
12-10-2004, 10:48 AM
Now Maggs is saying the "I'm not greedy, the owners are" line. Heard it a thousand times before. If the White Sox are so greedy, why did you turn down a long term deal? Maggs is a greedy liar with a greedy agent. I loved him as a player but now I have to turn my back on him. Adios A-Hole!!!

gosox41
12-10-2004, 11:13 AM
1. Yes, Boras really spun this.
2. The surgery is illegal here. There's no way an organization would have backed the procedure. My guess is that doctor will be terminated.

As for seriousness? Five years ago, I partially tore my meniscus. I needed six months of physical therapy to learn to walk again. Just for a partial tear. Pretty serious stuff.
Did you have surgery or just PT? Also, did you hear about this alternate procedure that is illegal here but would have healed you faster or better? Maybe a doctor said we can do X to you but in a few years we're hoping option Y will be an available option to people who suffer from this injury.



Bob

gosox41
12-10-2004, 11:15 AM
The Sun-Times article states that the procedure he got included injections of a medication approved in the U.S. ONLY to treat blood pressure. So he would of NEVER got that procedure here for the tear.Funny, according to the Tribune he got some sort of shock treatment in Vienna.

Maybe the doctors in Vienna repaired him differently. After all they have the technology. Now Magglio is better then he was before. Better, stronger, faster....cue music.


Magglio Ordonez is the $70 mill man.


Bob

FarWestChicago
12-10-2004, 11:18 AM
Funny, according to the Tribune he got some sort of shock treatment in Vienna.

Maybe the doctors in Vienna repaired him differently. After all they have the technology. Now Magglio is better then he was before. Better, stronger, faster....cue music.


Magglio Ordonez is the $70 mill man.


Bob:nandrolone

Damn!! I gotta get me some of that "shock" stuff!!

Rocky Soprano
12-10-2004, 11:19 AM
Funny, according to the Tribune he got some sort of shock treatment in Vienna.

Maybe the doctors in Vienna repaired him differently. After all they have the technology. Now Magglio is better then he was before. Better, stronger, faster....cue music.


Magglio Ordonez is the $70 mill man.


Bob
The SunTimes also mentioned the shock treatment, but the whole "illegal" procedure that is mentioned seems to be the injections.

Iwritecode
12-10-2004, 11:23 AM
So basically here's what happened according to how I see it:

-KW offers Maggs the 5 years 70 mil with part of it deferred, but the contract still having significant value and probably worth more than he would have gotten
-Maggs turns it down
-Maggs gets injured
-Maggs got the first surgery
-Found out his situation was pretty serious
-Consulted Frank about who to see
-Saw Frank's podiatrist
-Podiatrist recommended a surgery or treatment that is not allowed to be done in the United States
-KW hears about this and states what he genuinely thought was the truth
-Maggs got scared that his market value was going down a lot with those comments
-Maggs hires Boras to Cover his rear for him
-Boras lies to the media about Maggs' situation
-KW tries to be amicable, but Boras wont let the GM have a medical inspection of the player under contract
-KW is forced to not offer arbitration, not wanting to be on the hook for 11.2 million for a potentially injured player
-Maggs bitches to the media

This is the sequence of events that is apparent to me. I could be wrong on some of them, but I think that magglio is the one at fault here.

If that wasn't so long, that would make a good sig...

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 11:25 AM
1. Yes, Boras really spun this.
2. The surgery is illegal here. There's no way an organization would have backed the procedure. My guess is that doctor will be terminated.

As for seriousness? Five years ago, I partially tore my meniscus. I needed six months of physical therapy to learn to walk again. Just for a partial tear. Pretty serious stuff.
That must have been one heck of a tear. People tear their meniscus all the time. It's painful but doesn't seriously damage the integrity of the knee in most cases. Often after a certain age, doctors will merely trim the meniscus rather than repair it from what I understand.

Maybe one of our resident orthopedists can fill in the blanks here...

Iwritecode
12-10-2004, 11:27 AM
Did anyone else notice this quote at the end of the ST article?

"I was hoping the White Sox would offer me arbitration, but they never called.''

Seems to me that he's scared that his knee isn't 100% yet and he won't be able to pass the physical required for him to sign even a 1-year contract.

I'm betting that if the Sox would have offered arbitration he would have jumped all over it.

cheeses_h_rice
12-10-2004, 11:36 AM
So basically here's what happened according to how I see it:

-KW offers Maggs the 5 years 70 mil with part of it deferred, but the contract still having significant value and probably worth more than he would have gotten
-Maggs turns it down
-Maggs gets injured
-Maggs got the first surgery
-Found out his situation was pretty serious
-Consulted Frank about who to see
-Saw Frank's podiatrist
-Podiatrist recommended a surgery or treatment that is not allowed to be done in the United States
-KW hears about this and states what he genuinely thought was the truth
-Maggs got scared that his market value was going down a lot with those comments
-Maggs hires Boras to Cover his rear for him
-Boras lies to the media about Maggs' situation
-KW tries to be amicable, but Boras wont let the GM have a medical inspection of the player under contract
-KW is forced to not offer arbitration, not wanting to be on the hook for 11.2 million for a potentially injured player
-Maggs bitches to the media

This is the sequence of events that is apparent to me. I could be wrong on some of them, but I think that magglio is the one at fault here.
I would have to agree with nearly all of this. The only thing I'm not certain about is KW's true and complete motivation for poor-mouthing Maggs' health; part of me believes that he did want to ding down Maggs' market value with his comments.

mdep524
12-10-2004, 11:38 AM
Did anyone else notice this quote at the end of the ST article?



Seems to me that he's scared that his knee isn't 100% yet and he won't be able to pass the physical required for him to sign even a 1-year contract.

I'm betting that if the Sox would have offered arbitration he would have jumped all over it.
I'm sorry, I've lost a lot of respect for Maggs as a result of this whole little episode.

As Comic Book Guy might say...

http://www.sjfanboy.com/cbg.gif
WORST. EPISODE. EVER.

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 11:38 AM
Did anyone else notice this quote at the end of the ST article?



Seems to me that he's scared that his knee isn't 100% yet and he won't be able to pass the physical required for him to sign even a 1-year contract.

I'm betting that if the Sox would have offered arbitration he would have jumped all over it.
Well, gee... you think Boras's hardline stance on no workouts until AFTER the aribtration deadline had something to do with it? :dunno:

I'm sorry Magglio is leaving. I'm sorry he got hurt. I'm sorry it's turning ugly but both sides of this mess have plenty of blame to share and Magglio has to go no further than the bathroom mirror to see at least one person to blame...

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 11:39 AM
I would have to agree with nearly all of this. The only thing I'm not certain about is KW's true and complete motivation for poor-mouthing Maggs' health; part of me believes that he did want to ding down Maggs' market value with his comments.
Wouldn't be the first time the Sox have done so...

Iwritecode
12-10-2004, 11:41 AM
I would have to agree with nearly all of this. The only thing I'm not certain about is KW's true and complete motivation for poor-mouthing Maggs' health; part of me believes that he did want to ding down Maggs' market value with his comments.

What exactly did KW say?

Does anyone have any quotes or links?

fledgedrallycap
12-10-2004, 11:48 AM
Just an FYI according to Bruce Levine, the surgery was not to repair his meniscus, but rather bone repair on his knee cap.

I don't know the technicalities, but there were reports he had a bone deteriation disease in his knee; and the Vienna procedure was in response to that, not the muscle.

gosox41
12-10-2004, 11:49 AM
Did anyone else notice this quote at the end of the ST article?



Seems to me that he's scared that his knee isn't 100% yet and he won't be able to pass the physical required for him to sign even a 1-year contract.

I'm betting that if the Sox would have offered arbitration he would have jumped all over it.
I don't have access to the Sun Times, but that is an interesting comment considering he claims he felt unwanted here.


Bob

Over By There
12-10-2004, 11:50 AM
So basically here's what happened according to how I see it:

-KW offers Maggs the 5 years 70 mil with part of it deferred, but the contract still having significant value and probably worth more than he would have gotten
-Maggs turns it down
-Maggs gets injured
-Maggs got the first surgery
-Found out his situation was pretty serious
-Consulted Frank about who to see
-Saw Frank's podiatrist
-Podiatrist recommended a surgery or treatment that is not allowed to be done in the United States
-KW hears about this and states what he genuinely thought was the truth
-Maggs got scared that his market value was going down a lot with those comments
-Maggs hires Boras to Cover his rear for him
-Boras lies to the media about Maggs' situation
-KW tries to be amicable, but Boras wont let the GM have a medical inspection of the player under contract
-KW is forced to not offer arbitration, not wanting to be on the hook for 11.2 million for a potentially injured player
-Maggs bitches to the media

This is the sequence of events that is apparent to me. I could be wrong on some of them, but I think that magglio is the one at fault here.
Thank you for taking the time to lay this out. That's the way I've interpreted the situation, too. As usual, some people would rather lambaste the organization they "love" than realize that the Sox aren't to blame for how this situation went down.

gosox41
12-10-2004, 11:50 AM
Just an FYI according to Bruce Levine, the surgery was not to repair his meniscus, but rather bone repair on his knee cap.

I don't know the technicalities, but there were reports he had a bone deteriation disease in his knee; and the Vienna procedure was in response to that, not the muscle.
Doesn't that contradict everything coming out of Magglio's camp?


Bob

cheeses_h_rice
12-10-2004, 11:50 AM
What exactly did KW say?

Does anyone have any quotes or links?
This post (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=507959&postcount=37) discusses the Austria issue.

A report Monday that Ordonez had surgery on his ailing left knee by doctors in Vienna about a month ago was reluctantly confirmed by Sox general manager Ken Williams.

"I guess the secret is out," Williams said of the WMVP-AM 1000 report. "I would have preferred this come from Magglio's camp, because anything I say on the subject is me trying to diminish his value."

Williams said Sox doctors haven't examined Ordonez yet. "He can go to Zimbabwe for all I care as long as he's healthy. And he's indicated to me that he's feeling better."

ode to veeck
12-10-2004, 12:22 PM
Folks, the initial surgery Maggs had was for meniscus repair. I had mine repaired last Feburary and was playing tennis again (mostly doubles though) only a few weeks later. However, my knee is still not as strong yet today (I should be continuing PT exercises on my own).

After a normal expected recovery time from a meniscus repair that appeared to go well (once they go in with arthroscope they can see more than from non-invansive MRI), Maggs showed more signs of trouble and subsequently had some very unusual other condition in the knee diagnosed. I don't know anything about the controversial procedures in Europe, but apparantly the rare problem he had in the knee (in addtion to the meniscus) is not well understood, so protcals for treatment could be varied and less known as to effectivenes etc as well. Do folks remember that the prognosis at the time for his recovery fromn the condition was fairly uncertain when he went to IR the last time?

munchman33
12-10-2004, 02:07 PM
With meniscus tears, its how serious a tear is that determines surgery, replacement, or simple PT. The meniscus is the main cartlidge holding together the femur and the tibia. And its not like any other cartlidge in the human body.

Personally, I tore my meniscus about halfway through. In order to prevent further tearing, they shut my leg down after surgery, so PT was needed to bring my leg back from atrophy.

Reports I've heard about Maggs have made it seems like a significant tear. Probably all the way through. Bone degradation aside (which would probably end his career), the meniscus tear is enough to make me think he's not playing at all next year. Those of you with visions of Magglio jumping around or even at 50% need to stop listening so much to Scott Boras.

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 02:12 PM
If that wasn't so long, that would make a good sig...

It's linked in my sig now. Thanks for the suggestion

raul12
12-10-2004, 02:35 PM
With meniscus tears, its how serious a tear is that determines surgery, replacement, or simple PT. The meniscus is the main cartlidge holding together the femur and the tibia. And its not like any other cartlidge in the human body.

Personally, I tore my meniscus about halfway through. In order to prevent further tearing, they shut my leg down after surgery, so PT was needed to bring my leg back from atrophy.

Reports I've heard about Maggs have made it seems like a significant tear. Probably all the way through. Bone degradation aside (which would probably end his career), the meniscus tear is enough to make me think he's not playing at all next year. Those of you with visions of Magglio jumping around or even at 50% need to stop listening so much to Scott Boras.It's not necessarily how serious the tear is, but also how long the person wants to wait until he/she can begin regular activity. In some cases, trimming the meniscus is the only option, which leaves a hole in the cartilege. Ironically enough, this recovery is only a short period of time--essentially walking out of the surgery with a little help from crutches. However, if the tear is minor, there are two options (still trimming versus repair). Since blood flow to the meniscus is so small, the repair takes several weeks to heal with no activity, and several weeks of physical therapy after that.

So why wouldn't one just trim the meniscus? The reason is that historically speaking, those who had the partial meniscectomy got arthritis earlier than normal. however, 10-20 years ago, they took out a lot more cartilege than they do now, and there is no direct evidence that modern meniscetomies cause early arthritis.

Why do I know this? I had one last year and I have a good friend who is a PT who specializes in this type of stuff.

hellenicsoxfan
12-10-2004, 09:19 PM
This is the sequence of events that is apparent to me. I could be wrong on some of them, but I think that magglio is the one at fault here.I pretty much have to agree with you. So does Chicago baseball reporter Bruce Levine who said on Carmen DeFalco's ESPN 1000 show last night "It's Maggs own fault that he is in the situation he is in now. It was Maggs who turned down a fair 5 year, $65 Million contract."

munchman33
12-10-2004, 10:10 PM
It's not necessarily how serious the tear is, but also how long the person wants to wait until he/she can begin regular activity. In some cases, trimming the meniscus is the only option, which leaves a hole in the cartilege. Ironically enough, this recovery is only a short period of time--essentially walking out of the surgery with a little help from crutches. However, if the tear is minor, there are two options (still trimming versus repair). Since blood flow to the meniscus is so small, the repair takes several weeks to heal with no activity, and several weeks of physical therapy after that.

So why wouldn't one just trim the meniscus? The reason is that historically speaking, those who had the partial meniscectomy got arthritis earlier than normal. however, 10-20 years ago, they took out a lot more cartilege than they do now, and there is no direct evidence that modern meniscetomies cause early arthritis.

Why do I know this? I had one last year and I have a good friend who is a PT who specializes in this type of stuff.
I'm willing to bet Maggs tore his completely apart.

beckett21
12-10-2004, 10:42 PM
though there are some quesitons I have.

In today's Trib. it came out that the White Sox organization never recommonded Magglio go to Vienna for surgery. It was a podiatrist, Dr. Weil, who was not working in any capacity for the Sox who suggested it.

When KW first ehard this he denied it because he didn't know. It wasn't until after KW was questioned that Magglio went to KW and told him he recommend Magglio go to Vienna.

So to my questions:


1. Does this make Boras a liar for saying the White Sox recommended the doctor?

2. Magglio went to have his meniscus fixed in Austria. How serious of a knee injury is a torn meniscus? How long does it generally take to recover from one? Also, why couldn't a US doctor do it here if it was such a basic injury?

We're still not getting all the facts about this.



Bob Figure sooner or later someone is going to ask me, so here goes.

1) Lowell Scott Weil, Sr. is officially the team podiatrist for the White Sox. He performed Frank's ankle surgery a few years back. He is one of the monsters of our profession, and is world-renowned in his own right.

If I am not mistaken, he is also a shareholder/board member/stockholder/whatever you want to call it/ of the White Sox. At least I know he used to be; I am assuming he still is.

I have my own opinion of the man, but this is not the appropriate place for me to share that. Nonetheless, he is a heavyweight and has connections throughout the world. He is about as powerful a force there is as far as podiatry goes, if that makes any sense and FWIW.

2) I don't know much about knees, but a torn meniscus in and of itself should not take that long to heal from. Remember he had bone marrow edema in the knee, which is akin to a *bone bruise* or *microfracture* in the knee. This is more unpredictable.

As far as the *shock wave therapy* I perform that myself for plantar fasciitis/heel spur patients. Weil is one of the leaders in research in the field of podiatry (so much so he even named an Institute after himself...). Sorry, Couldn't help myself. :redneck

Anyway, Extracorporeal Shockwave Therapy (or ESWT for short)is what he is referring to. This treatment has been FDA approved in the US for plantar fasciitis only, to my knowledge. It is based on the same principle as lithotripsy for kidney stones which has been around since the 1980's. There are ongoing clinical trials and they are trying to get approval for its use in treating other parts of the body, such as the Achilles tendon, the elbow, the shoulder, and apparently the knee.

Without going into too much detail, it utilizes focused sound waves which penetrate the tissues and help to stimulate blood flow, hence stimulating healing. I have been doing the procedure for heel spurs for two years now, and the success rate is comparable to that of surgery. I have been very happy with it in my experience and I can tell you that someday it will be the standard of care IMHO.

The problem, obviously, is that it has not yet garnered FDA approval for all of these other indications here in the states. That does not mean it is unsafe; all it means is that there is not enough long-term data to conclusively prove the efficacy of ESWT.

All I know is what I read in today's Trib so I know as much or less than the rest of you. Just wanted to clarify a few things to help with the understanding.

Incidentally, if Mark Prior had been with the White Sox last year, he probably would have had ESWT done on his Achilles and he would have been back a lot sooner. :wink: Weil is a leading researcher in the application of ESWT for Achilles tendonitis and my guess is that he would have done the procedure. Both of my associates have performed the procedure for achilles tendonitis and the results have been remarkable, granted it has only been a few cases. It's not illegal, but the insurance companies just don't pay to do it on the Achilles. Some still don't pay to do it for plantar fasciitis, some do; but once the long term studies are done they will have no excuse not to.

Daver
12-10-2004, 11:00 PM
I would like to take a moment to thank the WSI staff physician for his input, it clears up a bit of the mystery that the media doesn't bother to cover.

beckett21
12-10-2004, 11:01 PM
I would like to take a moment to thank the WSI staff physician for his input, it clears up a bit of the mystery that the media doesn't bother to cover.
You, sir, are welcome. :redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
12-10-2004, 11:13 PM
I would like to take a moment to thank the WSI staff physician for his input, it clears up a bit of the mystery that the media doesn't bother to cover.
Well now that we know Chicago's biggest media troll lusts for our approval, I'm sure he'll use this information in his next column. Or maybe he'll drop our name on the air, again... you know the place where all the intelligent Sox Fans hang out and curse his name.

:cool:

FarWestChicago
12-10-2004, 11:23 PM
you know the place where all the intelligent Sox Fans hang out and curse his name.Well, most of them. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

:moron

I know one guy loves me!!

Daver
12-10-2004, 11:39 PM
You, sir, are welcome. :redneck
Sir?


You must have me confused with someone else.

:D:

nitetrain8601
12-11-2004, 12:12 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041210&content_id=920238&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

I didn't know there was another meniscus tear in the back of his knee.

gobears1987
12-12-2004, 08:40 PM
So basically here's what happened according to how I see it:

-KW offers Maggs the 5 years 70 mil with part of it deferred, but the contract still having significant value and probably worth more than he would have gotten
-Maggs turns it down
-Maggs gets injured
-Maggs got the first surgery
-Found out his situation was pretty serious
-Consulted Frank about who to see
-Saw Frank's podiatrist
-Podiatrist recommended a surgery or treatment that is not allowed to be done in the United States
-KW hears about this and states what he genuinely thought was the truth
-Maggs got scared that his market value was going down a lot with those comments
-Maggs hires Boras to Cover his rear for him
-Boras lies to the media about Maggs' situation
-KW tries to be amicable, but Boras wont let the GM have a medical inspection of the player under contract
-KW is forced to not offer arbitration, not wanting to be on the hook for 11.2 million for a potentially injured player
-Maggs bitches to the media

This is the sequence of events that is apparent to me. I could be wrong on some of them, but I think that magglio is the one at fault here.
I have lost all respect for Maggs. I hope he sucks where ever he goes.