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View Full Version : Tom Shaer: Sox/Yankees/Dbacks talking 3-way deal


Jjav829
12-09-2004, 08:59 AM
Tom Shaer reported on his update a few minutes ago that the Sox, Yankees, and Dbacks are still talking about a 3-way trade that would land RJ in NY and Javier Vazquez in Chicago. According to Shaer, the Sox would trade either Garland or Konerko to the Yankees. The Yankees would send prospects (and Garland or Konerko, I assume, though he didn't mention it) to Arizona for RJ.

He seemed to indicate that these talks might be pretty serious, and that they could really heat up this weekend at the winter meetings.

It's possible this deal could change to where we'd have to trade both Garland and Konerko, but I'll ask the question, would you rather trade Garland or Konerko and why? If we trade Konerko, our rotation would be set, though we'd be going with Gload at 1st. If we trade Garland, we'd have a good first 4 pitchers, though we'd be stuck with a hole in the 5th spot.

It's also worth noting again here that the Dbacks are expected to announce the signing of Troy Glaus today. You have to wonder how that affects the RJ situation. Did they have to guarantee Glaus that RJ would stay to get him to sign? Are they trying to put together a run this year with RJ by bringing in guys like Glaus, Clayton, Ortiz? Or is Glaus part of their rebuilding plan where they'd rather trade RJ to get younger?

I hope this all plays out quickly at the winter meetings. I don't want Kenny waiting for this trade to go down and missing out on the remaining free agent pitchers.

Brian26
12-09-2004, 09:02 AM
I'd rather trade Garland rather than Konerko. Keep this in mind- Glaus wants to play firstbase. So, if Arizona signs him, they may not have room for Konerko in their lineup.

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 09:03 AM
Trade Konerko if possible.

Could Everett or Lee play first?

That would free up space for both Everett and Dye to play everyday even after Frank comes back.

Keep the pitching.

1917
12-09-2004, 09:04 AM
Although this kills me to say, I would rather give up Paulie, he is due 8 million this year. I think Gload can play a good first. But on the flip side we are losing 25 more HRS. With Vazquez our rotation would be set. I would love if AZ included Shea Hillenbrand who can play both 1st and 3rd if Gload or Crede bites it.

GiveMeSox
12-09-2004, 09:06 AM
First off all trading at this point is stupid, espcecially that from one of your everyday guys. This team has more offseason holes than the Dan Ryan in the winter. There is no point in trading away a producer for vazquez and his 10 mil a year which in turn will jsut create other holes when you can just go out and sign a guy to a 1 or 2 year deal for half the price. If we trade Garland then we still only have 4 starters and we dont want another rookie 5th fiasco again. If we trade konerko we lose a huge rbi and hr threat, the heart and soul of this team, and replace him with another question mark at the plate and in the field as with gload. I just cant see how trading away anyone for a 10 mil pitcher can help us at this point. When you have as many holes as we do you need to add add add and fill them up with solid, not necissarily superstar players. I would rather sign whoever Perez or someone for 5 mil then trade either Garland or Konerko away for vazquez at 10 mil. This trade is stupid unless we trade someone we dont see in our everyday lineup.

Jurr
12-09-2004, 09:07 AM
I am betting that Garland is the one they really want in the package. He's as cheap as they come for a young quality 3 or 4 guy. That contract and talent in a national league ballpark would bring a lot of stability to a rebuilding rotation.

Brian26
12-09-2004, 09:07 AM
I'm interested in seeing what Gload can do too, but I just think PK is the better talent than Garland. I believe they will both be up for free agency at the same time, so that's not a factor. I don't think the difference between Garland and Grilli is big as the difference (the possible difference) between PK and Gload. Just my opinion, though.

doublem23
12-09-2004, 09:08 AM
Let's not forget Frank always hit better when he played the field. Don't know if that's a realistic option or not.

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 09:08 AM
Trade Konerko if possible.

Could Everett or Lee play first?

That would free up space for both Everett and Dye to play everyday even after Frank comes back.

Keep the pitching.
I don't understand this whole "Dump Paulie" syndrome that seemingly everyone on this board is suffering from. You'd rather have Garland than Paulie? C'mon now.

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 09:08 AM
First off all trading at this point is stupid, espcecially that from one of your everyday guys. This team has more offseason holes than the Dan Ryan in the winter. There is no point in trading away a producer for vazquez and his 10 mil a year which in turn will jsut create other holes when you can just go out and sign a guy to a 1 or 2 year deal for half the price. If we trade Garland then we still only have 4 starters and we dont want another rookie 5th fiasco again. If we trade konerko we lose a huge rbi and hr threat, the heart and soul of this team, and replace him with another question mark at the plate and in the field as with gload. I just cant see how trading away anyone for a 10 mil pitcher can help us at this point. When you have as many holes as we do you need to add add add and fill them up with solid, not necissarily superstar players. I would rather sign whoever Perez or someone for 5 mil then trade either Garland or Konerko away for vazquez at 10 mil. This trade is stupid unless we trade someone we dont see in our everyday lineup.
Well it's possible the Yankees could be eating some of the salary to get this deal done. I would hope they are because if they aren't, I'd rather trade for Hudson and sign him to the big extension he wants. The money Hudson will get likely won't be much more than what Vazquez is averaging.

Jurr
12-09-2004, 09:10 AM
Let's not forget Frank always hit better when he played the field. Don't know if that's a realistic option or not.I think Frank's going to have a tough enough time coming back to play DH with that injury. 1st base would probably be out of the question.

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 09:11 AM
Let's not forget Frank always hit better when he played the field. Don't know if that's a realistic option or not.That can't be a realistic option at this point. The guy is a question mark to start the season as a DH, much less playing first. He was having a pretty good year last year without playing first base. There's no point in risking it. I'd sooner give Everett a first basemans glove and let him give it a shot before I consider putting Frank back there.

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 09:12 AM
I don't understand this whole "Dump Paulie" syndrome that seemingly everyone on this board is suffering from. You'd rather have Garland than Paulie? C'mon now.
Yes. I don't think of it as "dumping" Paulie because they will acquire a major talent in return.

I do think the Sox need to add another starter. If they went into 2005 with 5 proven starters it would be fantastic for the team and much more important than the extra 10 HR Paulie is going to give the team over say Lee at first and Everett in LF.

nccwsfan
12-09-2004, 09:12 AM
I'd be more comfortable with the Sox finding a 5th starter on the market instead of wondering whether or not Gload could be the everyday 1B. Trade Garland.

Justafan
12-09-2004, 09:13 AM
If KW traded Konerko to get Vasquez he should be canned on the spot.

Dolanski
12-09-2004, 09:18 AM
If you trade, Garland for Vasquez, its an upgrade, but more money so I don't see that happening. Paulie doesn't fit on either Arizona or NYY, unless they Yankees dump or trade us Giambi (HELL NO!!!). But any way this deal would go down, we increase payroll quite a bit and that doesn't sound like the KW and JR Show to me. My guess is discussions are serious, but Sox are asking for a lot of money to be paid for by Arizona or the Yankees and both are balking at it.

Keep in mind that Garland is still VERY young and has shown signs of his talents coming to fruition. Seriously, if he continues to improve, he is going to be absolutely filthy at 28-29. His value is stronger than PKs in that sense, but Paul is also a younger guy and a big producer. A 40HR 120 RBI guy for 8 mill a year is still a lot of bang for your buck.

I would rather the Sox keep both guys, and spend the money they would be spending in a deal like this on a FA starter.

Mickster
12-09-2004, 09:22 AM
If you trade, Garland for Vasquez, its an upgrade, but more money so I don't see that happening. Paulie doesn't fit on either Arizona or NYY, unless they Yankees dump or trade us Giambi (HELL NO!!!). But any way this deal would go down, we increase payroll quite a bit and that doesn't sound like the KW and JR Show to me. My guess is discussions are serious, but Sox are asking for a lot of money to be paid for by Arizona or the Yankees and both are balking at it.

Keep in mind that Garland is still VERY young and has shown signs of his talents coming to fruition. Seriously, if he continues to improve, he is going to be absolutely filthy at 28-29. His value is stronger than PKs in that sense, but Paul is also a younger guy and a big producer. A 40HR 120 RBI guy for 8 mill a year is still a lot of bang for your buck.

I would rather the Sox keep both guys, and spend the money they would be spending in a deal like this on a FA starter.
Garland signed a 1 year contract this year making $3.5M. If the Yankees pay even 25% in the deal (It was rumored that they would pay 1/3) then it is an increase of $4M/yr over Garland.

The real question to ask: Is Vazquez worth $4M more than Garland?

munchman33
12-09-2004, 09:24 AM
If KW traded Konerko to get Vasquez he should be canned on the spot.
I disagree. If we're serious about competing, we need pitchers with a lot of upside in our rotation. And the amount of money the Yankees pick up would also be at issue.

I do think Konerko would then have to be replaced. Ross Gload as a starter does nothing for me.

MRKARNO
12-09-2004, 09:28 AM
If KW traded Konerko to get Vasquez he should be canned on the spot.

2001 VORP:
Vazquez 53.4
Konerko 39.9

2002 VORP:
Vazquez 29.8
Konerko 43.3

2003 VORP:
Vazquez 52.9
Konerko 3.2

2004 VORP:
Vazquez 23.1
Konerko 48.1

I dont see what the problem is here. You're being irrational in your hatred of Kenny Williams and in this grandiose statement. Vazquez at his best is as valuable as Konerko at his best or even more and Vazquez has hit his highest range 2 of 4 times in the past 4 years while Konerko only once. Konerko's low is also worse than Vazquez's worst year. Simply because Vazquez had a bad year shouldnt make him a bad pitcher. Mel Stottlemyer is an awful pitching coach and Cooper should be able to set him back to normal. We might be able to acquire a decent 1B besides Gload if we do this anyways, so I would be in favor of keeping Garland so as not to have to fill the rotation hole. Pitching will be more expensive than offense this yearand we need all the pitching we can get.

SoxFan78
12-09-2004, 09:29 AM
What is VORP???

MRKARNO
12-09-2004, 09:35 AM
What is VORP???


Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances.

http://baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?context=alpha&ltr=V

jake27
12-09-2004, 09:35 AM
i cant beleive im saying this, but id rather have garland. if we kept konerko we still have a problem at the #5 spot and with vasquez, we wouldnt be willing to spend the $ to sign a decent starter. i think gload would fill in great for konerko and mabye frank play 1st when he returns.

thepaulbowski
12-09-2004, 09:35 AM
Let's not forget Frank always hit better when he played the field. Don't know if that's a realistic option or not.

With his recent string of injuries, he won't be playing the field much (if ever.)

Jurr
12-09-2004, 09:37 AM
You don't understand...we don't have a problem at the fifth spot. Kenny said that Grilli solves that problem. Didn't you hear????

idseer
12-09-2004, 09:39 AM
What is VORP???
meaningless drivel.

fusillirob1983
12-09-2004, 09:43 AM
Would Vazquez's vorp for 2001-2003 be affected by the fact that he played in Montreal?

Randar68
12-09-2004, 09:45 AM
I don't understand this whole "Dump Paulie" syndrome that seemingly everyone on this board is suffering from. You'd rather have Garland than Paulie? C'mon now.
I'd rather have Garland as the #5 pitcher in a rotation of

Buehrle, Garcia, Vazquez, Contreras, Garland with Gload at first then go into yet another season with no #5 hitter but PK and his 100 K's and 30 GIDP's with at 1st making over 8 million dollars.

Put CLee at 1st base and bring up Brian Anderson in LF or CF. An outfield of Anderson-Rowand-Dye with the above starting 5 is a hell of a lot better than going back to no 5th starter.

Also remember that having a solid top 5 starters pushes everyone else down a notch and SHOULD improve the bullpen.

munchman33
12-09-2004, 09:45 AM
meaningless drivel.
In some cases, yes. But its good when you're trying to compare the worth of players who don't play the same position. And it worked in this scenerio, as the numbers supported what was alread obvious at a glance for most of us.

Deadguy
12-09-2004, 09:45 AM
meaningless drivel.
It's an unbiased source that provides logical ways to compare different player's values to their team, regardless of their position, the league they play in, or the park they play in.

jabrch
12-09-2004, 09:45 AM
If KW traded Konerko to get Vasquez he should be canned on the spot.

poppycock....

And ACE SP for a 1B who has been up and down and still hasn't established that he can hit .280 or 30 HRs by doing it in back to back seasons... And who is a FA next year and who makes 8mm this year? Before coming to NY, Vazquez was a true Ace. 1 year later, he's not worth Paul Konerko? I"d take him in a heartbeat.

kittle42
12-09-2004, 09:46 AM
You don't understand...we don't have a problem at the fifth spot. Kenny said that Grilli solves that problem. Didn't you hear????
Shhh....it's all part of flying under the radar...of course, in this case that just means we are deceiving team into thinking Jason Grilli will be the fifth starter, when in fact it will be Scott Schoeneweis.

Justafan
12-09-2004, 09:47 AM
Did anyone see Vasquez in the playoffs? I'm all for a strong rotation but I think Vasquez is a tad overrated.

jabrch
12-09-2004, 09:47 AM
What is VORP???


Statsitcally manipulated poopoo that can be easily disregarded as nothing more than a tool that calculatorheads have created to simplify baseball down to one number...In this case, one that doesn't hold true on the field of play.

MRKARNO
12-09-2004, 09:47 AM
Would Vazquez's vorp for 2001-2003 be affected by the fact that he played in Montreal?

Over that time period, Olympic stadium was one of the most pitcher friendly ballparks in the national league. The decline this year is really weird, but it's safe to say that it's definately a hitters' ballpark. I do believe that park factors are factored into VORP however.

siugrad25
12-09-2004, 09:49 AM
Honestly, I want no part of Vasquez if it means giving up players unless it deals with only trading Garland AND they still make a push for another starter. I've mentioned this before in another thread, but there's no way the Sox get rid of Konerko and put Gload at 1B... I can't believe Sox fans want to get rid of Konerko that bad.

Here's my plan:
OUTFIELD: (Dye), Rowand, Lee
INFIELD: Konerko, Uribe, (Renteria/Relaford/Polanco), Crede
CATCHER: (Matheny), Burke or Davis
STARTERS: Buehrle, Garcia, (Clement), Contreras, Garland
RELIEVERS:SET

If Dye signs, the Sox are only IMO three additions from being 'SET' for next season... Why do you want to get rid of Konerko so badly and give up his 40+ home runs only to put Gload there for Vasquez? Why not sign a FA pitcher like Clement and keep both of them. These threads about trading Konerko are unbelievable and getting more stupid by the moment.

MRKARNO
12-09-2004, 09:49 AM
Did anyone see Vasquez in the playoffs? I'm all for a strong rotation but I think Vasquez is a tad overrated.

Well i dont think you can judge how good a player will perform over the course of the next few years based on one or two games.

munchman33
12-09-2004, 09:52 AM
I suspect if Kenny deals Konerko, it's because he's in on Carlos Delgado.

Win1ForMe
12-09-2004, 09:52 AM
I said it once and I'll say it again: Garland is going to have a better season than Vazquez next year. I don't see the fascination with a guy who's lost velocity and had an ERA near 7 the last 3 months of the season. He's either injured or a headcase, and then we're depending on Cooper to straighten him out. Whatever the case, we're giving away production in Konerko or Garland for a relative question mark. Where's the sense in that?

Justafan
12-09-2004, 09:52 AM
Guys, No Maggs and no Konerko is suicide in homer happy USCF. Vasquez is a better then average pitcher, certainly NOT worth PK.

chisoxmike
12-09-2004, 09:54 AM
Whats with all the Vasquez humping? The only time I've seen this guy pitch a excellent game was against us this year on the Yankees home opener. I think he's overrated and I'm still not sold on Contreras. If Konerko goes...

:walnuts
"Where's the thunder?"

idseer
12-09-2004, 09:54 AM
It's an unbiased source that provides logical ways to compare different player's values to their team, regardless of their position, the league they play in, or the park they play in.
it may be unbiased but it's also crap!

look at the very numbers used in this instance. vasquez went from 50 something to 20 something to 50 something to 20 something. what good is information like that in comparison to another player? have we determined here that vasquez sucks every other year? and then how wise is it to sign the guy for 2 years?
i'm personally tired of numbers created from arbitrary whole cloth AFTER the fact that have absolutely NO value when considering a players worth. you simply don't compare a pitcher to a firstbaseman based on some ridiculous formula like vorp. you look at yout team ... what you need .... what you can give up ...... contracts etc.
these vorp conversations are such a waste of reading.

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 09:54 AM
I suspect if Kenny deals Konerko, it's because he's in on Carlos Delgado.
You're joking, right? Last I heard, Delgado is down to the Rangers and Orioles, with the Rangers seemingly the favorite to land him.

Dolanski
12-09-2004, 09:55 AM
Well i dont think you can judge how good a player will perform over the course of the next few years based on one or two games.
Ask the Braves about that one. 10 straight division titles, 1 WS victory. Winning the big games is important too. Of course, I think Vasquez is one of those guys who will perform better without the ridiculous media scrutiny of New York. Still, he's not worth it to me.

idseer
12-09-2004, 09:57 AM
poppycock....

And ACE SP for a 1B who has been up and down and still hasn't established that he can hit .280 or 30 HRs by doing it in back to back seasons... And who is a FA next year and who makes 8mm this year? Before coming to NY, Vazquez was a true Ace. 1 year later, he's not worth Paul Konerko? I"d take him in a heartbeat.
you got to be joking here. an ace? what do you base this on?

and a player who hasn't extablished himself? i guess that's true if you ignore his last 6 years. you have no credibility here with statements like these.

munchman33
12-09-2004, 09:58 AM
You're joking, right? Last I heard, Delgado is down to the Rangers and Orioles, with the Rangers seemingly the favorite to land him.
:KW
"under the radar"

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 09:59 AM
:KW
"under the radar"
Do you know something, or are you simply guessing?

FightingBillini
12-09-2004, 09:59 AM
I hope we could trade garland for Vasquez and get the Yankees to pick up a good portion of his salary. Here's what I wonder... I have heard from people that Oakland wants Konerko because they arent pleased with their first base platoon. Do you think we would be able to trade Konerko for Huson?

Justafan
12-09-2004, 09:59 AM
And lets talk about Ross Gload for a minute. This guy is a career journeyman. He is good guy OFF THE BENCH, not a everyday player.

Mickster
12-09-2004, 10:01 AM
:KW
"under the radar"
What "Grinder" was in '04, "Under the Radar" will be the KW quote of choice in '05..... :D:

munchman33
12-09-2004, 10:05 AM
Do you know something, or are you simply guessing?Just guessing. But I had us pegged for Cairo, Dye, Vasquez, Hermanson, and Delgado this offseason (but I wanted Clement and Pavano). Two of five have already come true, and two more are in the works. Thought I'd throw the fifth out there. Makes sense from Kenny's perspective, if he could get some more money. Wouldn't be the first time he tried to acquire him.

munchman33
12-09-2004, 10:06 AM
And lets talk about Roos Gload for a minute. This guy is a career journeyman. He is good guy OFF THE BENCH, not a everyday player.
Hey Justafan, we agree on something!

hold2dibber
12-09-2004, 10:12 AM
Why do you want to get rid of Konerko so badly and give up his 40+ home runs only to put Gload there for Vasquez? Why not sign a FA pitcher like Clement and keep both of them. These threads about trading Konerko are unbelievable and getting more stupid by the moment.
No one "wants" to get rid of Konerko - clearly, keeping him and signing Clement would be preferable. But that is a HIGHLY unlikely scenario because it would mean pushing the payroll well over $70 million. After signing Hermanson and Dye, the only way the Sox are going to acquire another front line starting pitcher is either by trading away a good player like PK or Lee, or upping the payroll. Based upon what you know of the White Sox organization, which do you think is more likely to happen?

OG4LIFE
12-09-2004, 10:18 AM
Folks, i dont see why we trade for vasquez when we can still (options at this point are a little more limited), sign a #3-4 pitcher via free agency without having to lose garland or konerko.

i guess i'd prefer to see a FA brought in, in this case, because this trade is essentially filling one hole, but creating another. we'll either have a hole in the lineup or rotation at the end of the day.

idseer
12-09-2004, 10:19 AM
No one "wants" to get rid of Konerko - clearly, ....
if you mean here at wsi then you clearly haven't been paying attention. konerko's name is almost always the FIRST name brought up when someone talks about a trade. and it's not just because it 'logical' either.
face it hold2. paul is not popular with sox fans at wsi. they will trade him for a 2nd string catcher or a 5th starter without a second thought.

Justafan
12-09-2004, 10:21 AM
Hey Justafan, we agree on something!
Hey, I respect your stance on certain things and I hope you respect mine. Nothing wrong with debate on the things we see differently.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 10:25 AM
if you mean here at wsi then you clearly haven't been paying attention. konerko's name is almost always the FIRST name brought up when someone talks about a trade. and it's not just because it 'logical' either.
face it hold2. paul is not popular with sox fans at wsi. they will trade him for a 2nd string catcher or a 5th starter without a second thought.It is the first name brought up because he's among the most expensive players, and at a position that's generally among the easiest to fill. He's also at a position where we have some options (Gload, Everett, Lee). Thos options would certainly be a downgrade, but the potential upgrade to be had using Konerko's 8.75mil (Matt Clement/Javy Vazquez type) is worth the improvement.

Put it this way - the vast majority don't believe that we need to dump Paulie, they jsut believe that Paulie+Grilli is worth less than Gload/Everett+Clement.

EDIT: Obviously there are some who believe Paulie just needs to go. But I think they're in the minority here.

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 10:26 AM
Thank God for the Tigers...

JR must be feeling some heat...

Come on Kenny Land us another starter and one more bat...

Tragg
12-09-2004, 10:27 AM
Tom Shaer reported on his update a few minutes ago that the Sox, Yankees, and Dbacks are still talking about a 3-way trade that would land RJ in NY and Javier Vazquez in Chicago. According to Shaer, the Sox would trade either Garland or Konerko to the Yankees. The Yankees would send prospects (and Garland or Konerko, I assume, though he didn't mention it) to Arizona for RJ.

He seemed to indicate that these talks might be pretty serious, and that they could really heat up this weekend at the winter meetings.

It's possible this deal could change to where we'd have to trade both Garland and Konerko, but I'll ask the question, would you rather trade Garland or Konerko and why? I would have to think that Vasquez would cost more than just Garland.
Vasquez has a high salary too

fquaye149
12-09-2004, 10:30 AM
Yes. I don't think of it as "dumping" Paulie because they will acquire a major talent in return.

I do think the Sox need to add another starter. If they went into 2005 with 5 proven starters it would be fantastic for the team and much more important than the extra 10 HR Paulie is going to give the team over say Lee at first and Everett in LF.
exactly! i can't believe people would rather give up a known commodity at starting pitcher (albeit a shakey one) for another starting pitcher who probably would fill the same back of the rotation role.

i'm not thrilled at having to give up konerko...but if that's what it takes to get 5 real deal starting pitchers then YES! YES! YES!

JRIG
12-09-2004, 10:31 AM
you got to be joking here. an ace? what do you base this on?
Well...4 1/2 years of outstanding pitching with numbers better than Freddy Garcia for one thing. Yes, his second half was not good with the Yankees last year.

But my goodness. Take a look at his 2001-2003 numbers and tell me he's not a top of the rotation guy. 200 Ks+ in two of those years. More than 220 innings in all of those seasons. WHIPs of 1.08, 1.11, and 1.27. ERAs of 3.42, 3.91, and 3.24. Low BB numbers.

And his first half with NY last year? 3.56 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 32 BB, 95 K in 118 IP and an OBA of .233.

nasox
12-09-2004, 10:31 AM
vasquez for garland would be a decent trade (if it is just that). Maybe hermenson could fill up the last spot, but then again, based on our fifth starter troubles recently, that may not be a risk we'd want to take. Any cheap fifth starter like players on the market (like kenny rodgers was when he signed for a million?). If so, we could trade garland in this deal and then fill the last spot with someone from FA or maybe from the farm. I dunno.....

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2004, 10:34 AM
I'm loyal to the team first, players second. In any case, with the Dye signing, the Sox have seven RH starting position players (Rowand, Dye, Lee, Frank, Konerko, Uribe and Crede.) Harris, Everett and Davis are switch-hitters.

Adding Dye but subtracting Maggs results in the same RH-dominated middle of the lineup. Something still must give; four RH thumpers hasn't produced a Sox playoff appearance since 2000.

As much as I appreciate Konerko's attitude and his 2004 production, he's the logical one to go. He makes the most money, is a free agent next after this season and plays a position that is among the easiest to fill. Beyond that, Dye and Frank aren't going anywhere, so it's either Lee or Konerko. Both are similar players with similar salaries, but Lee is faster and can play the outfield and probably could move to first base if needed. Konerko cannot play the outfield.

The Yankees need a first baseman (they hope to void Giambi's contract) while the Sox need another quality starter. Just one year ago, Vasquez was seen as the next great pitcher. He had a rough year in New York. Now some people think he's awful.

Trading Konerko makes the most sense for the Sox.

nccwsfan
12-09-2004, 10:35 AM
vasquez for garland would be a decent trade (if it is just that). Maybe hermenson could fill up the last spot, but then again, based on our fifth starter troubles recently, that may not be a risk we'd want to take. Any cheap fifth starter like players on the market (like kenny rodgers was when he signed for a million?). If so, we could trade garland in this deal and then fill the last spot with someone from FA or maybe from the farm. I dunno.....

I don't know if this link will work, but here's a list of unsigned FA starting pitchers. Slim pickings.....who do the Sox go after?

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/hot_stove/y2004/free_agent_tracker.jsp?fastatus=unsigned&subscope=pos&teamPosCode=S

doublem23
12-09-2004, 10:36 AM
:KW
"under the radar"
I can't believe the White Sox getting in the middle of a Rangers-Orioles bidding war.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 10:36 AM
And his first half with NY last year? 3.56 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 32 BB, 95 K in 118 IP and an OBA of .233.
That seems to me like there was some sort of injury.....or that it took about half a season for Stottlemyre's coaching to take effect.

idseer
12-09-2004, 10:37 AM
It is the first name brought up because he's among the most expensive players, and at a position that's generally among the easiest to fill. He's also at a position where we have some options (Gload, Everett, Lee). Thos options would certainly be a downgrade, but the potential upgrade to be had using Konerko's 8.75mil (Matt Clement/Javy Vazquez type) is worth the improvement.

Put it this way - the vast majority don't believe that we need to dump Paulie, they jsut believe that Paulie+Grilli is worth less than Gload/Everett+Clement.

EDIT: Obviously there are some who believe Paulie just needs to go. But I think they're in the minority here.
he may be among the most expensive we have but he's the only one constantly brought up.
i don't buy that it's easy to fill 1st base. that's a old wives tale
we have NO options at first unless you feel 40 hr's and 120 rbi's are easily replaced by the 3 you mentioned. gload has NO experience, lee has NO experience there and everett has no experience there. and of the three only lee can hit! and who's your left fielder if lee's at first? now we have to replace THOSE numbers. you remove paul and you leave a BIG hole.
you can throw grilli and gload/everett out of that equation. paul is NOT worth less than clement.
paul may certainly be traded, but you better have a better idea of how to fill his void than ross gload.

JRIG
12-09-2004, 10:37 AM
That seems to me like there was some sort of injury.....or that it took about half a season for Stottlemyre's coaching to take effect.
The latter sounds like the right answer to me. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2004, 10:37 AM
A rotation of Buehrle, Garcia, Vasquez, Contreras and Garland is rock-solid, IMHO, and improves the Sox playoff chances in 2005.

If they are on the fringes of contention in July but need a bat, KW can make a deal for a left-handed slugger to play first base. It's much easier to add a slugger than add a starting pitcher at the trading deadline (last summer's addition of Garcia being the exception).

Jurr
12-09-2004, 10:43 AM
he may be among the most expensive we have but he's the only one constantly brought up.
i don't buy that it's easy to fill 1st base. that's a old wives tale
we have NO options at first unless you feel 40 hr's and 120 rbi's are easily replaced by the 3 you mentioned. gload has NO experience, lee has NO experience there and everett has no experience there. and of the three only lee can hit! and who's your left fielder if lee's at first? now we have to replace THOSE numbers. you remove paul and you leave a BIG hole.
you can throw grilli and gload/everett out of that equation. paul is NOT worth less than clement.
paul may certainly be traded, but you better have a better idea of how to fill his void than ross gload.
Only Lee can hit?? I vividly remember Gload coming through in the clutch on many occasions, and he hit at a torrid pace to end the season, locking up rookie of the month honors near the end of the season (August?). He's a great hitter for average, and the only thing he HASN'T done is get an opportunity to play more. Is he going to hit 40 homers and 123 RBI?? Doubt it. But, he'll probably hit .300 and knock in 80 with 20 or more homers. We don't know..maybe he'll beat even those numbers if GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 10:45 AM
he may be among the most expensive we have but he's the only one constantly brought up.
i don't buy that it's easy to fill 1st base. that's a old wives tale
we have NO options at first unless you feel 40 hr's and 120 rbi's are easily replaced by the 3 you mentioned. gload has NO experience, lee has NO experience there and everett has no experience there. and of the three only lee can hit! and who's your left fielder if lee's at first? now we have to replace THOSE numbers. you remove paul and you leave a BIG hole.
you can throw grilli and gload/everett out of that equation. paul is NOT worth less than clement.
paul may certainly be traded, but you better have a better idea of how to fill his void than ross gload.
IMO it's easier to find a decent 1B. Millar's available & will likely be cheaper. Travis Lee/Tony Clark can put up 25HR/80RBI. Or if you move Everett/Lee to 1B (and I don't buy that it's that difficult to play, and anyway, Lee is a former 3B), you can sign an LF.

Paulie's the only guy making big money on a short term deal. He's also not as valuable an offensive player as the other tradeable option, Lee. Who would you recommend being traded if we want to free up $$$ for pitching.

Or do you think Koney+Grilli is better than Clement+Gload or a defensively challenged Everett?

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 10:49 AM
IMO it's easier to find a decent 1B. Millar's available & will likely be cheaper. Travis Lee/Tony Clark can put up 25HR/80RBI. Or if you move Everett/Lee to 1B (and I don't buy that it's that difficult to play, and anyway, Lee is a former 3B), you can sign an LF.

Paulie's the only guy making big money on a short term deal. He's also not as valuable an offensive player as the other tradeable option, Lee. Who would you recommend being traded if we want to free up $$$ for pitching.

Or do you think Koney+Grilli is better than Clement+Gload or a defensively challenged Everett?
Heck at the rate things are going, they'll be able to sign Giambi to a league minimum contract pretty soon.

SoxxoS
12-09-2004, 10:50 AM
Don't forget about Crede's new swing!!!

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 10:54 AM
I disagree. If we're serious about competing, we need pitchers with a lot of upside in our rotation. And the amount of money the Yankees pick up would also be at issue.

I do think Konerko would then have to be replaced. Ross Gload as a starter does nothing for me.This guy(Justafan) is convincing me more and more that he is either 13 years old or :crossdresser

AS for the trade, I would dump Konerko, but not Garland.
:yankeessuck

JKryl
12-09-2004, 11:09 AM
if you mean here at wsi then you clearly haven't been paying attention. konerko's name is almost always the FIRST name brought up when someone talks about a trade. and it's not just because it 'logical' either.
face it hold2. paul is not popular with sox fans at wsi. they will trade him for a 2nd string catcher or a 5th starter without a second thought.
Paul's name keeps coming up because he's the only big name on the team available for a trade. I'm assuming most people think they can get some value for him without thinking about the consequences of his leaving.

faneidde
12-09-2004, 11:10 AM
Please trade Garland. Let him go be another Kip Wells in the national league, because I am really tired of this guy and hit gutless performances. Its no secret I am a big fan of PK, but I can't see how anyone would rather have Garland than him.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 11:52 AM
This debate is pointless because it assumes no other move will be made to fill the resulting hole. Without knowing what other move might be made, there's no way to answer. BUT, at face value, it reduces to this:

Which scares you more, Grilli as the 5th starter or Ross Gload at 1B? I assume no one will need to think about this for more than 0.000001 second.

Mickster
12-09-2004, 11:54 AM
Which scares you more, Grilli as the 5th starter or Ross Gload at 1B? I assume no one will need to think about this for more than 0.000001 second.
:bundy

Both actually scare me about the same....

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 11:59 AM
Both actually scare me about the same....Grilli as our 5th starter without question. :rolleyes: Hasn't history taught you anything? White Sox fans biggest fear should be the phrase, "dreaded 5th starter."

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 12:07 PM
Both actually scare me about the same....OK kids, are you ready to play the Player A vs. Player B game? Great. Let's play.

Would you rate these two 1B about equally?

A: 280 AB, .875 OPS
B: 234 AB, .853 OPS

Player B is, of course, Ross Gload. Player A, with only a few more AB is Justin Morneau. And yes, I know, Morneau is 5 years younger. What difference does it make how old they are?

SOXSINCE'70
12-09-2004, 12:09 PM
Keep this in mind- Glaus wants to play firstbase. So, if Arizona signs him, they may not have room for Konerko in their lineup.
Affirmative.Glaus just signed with the D-Backs. Think it was
4 yrs,45 mill.Just heard it on the SNORE.Take it for what
it's worth.

JRIG
12-09-2004, 12:12 PM
OK kids, are you ready to play the Player A vs. Player B game? Great. Let's play.

Would you rate these two 1B about equally?

A: 280 AB, .875 OPS
B: 234 AB, .853 OPS

Player B is, of course, Ross Gload. Player A, with only a few more AB is Justin Morneau. And yes, I know, Morneau is 5 years younger. What difference does it make how old they are?Um...because there's a good chance Gload will be worse next year while there's a good chance Morneau will be better?

Comparing a guy who put up that OPS at the age of 23 in basically one season to a guy who has been up and down in the big leagues for the last 5 years and is 29 next year makes no sense at all.

Mickster
12-09-2004, 12:12 PM
OK kids, are you ready to play the Player A vs. Player B game? Great. Let's play.

Would you rate these two 1B about equally?

A: 280 AB, .875 OPS
B: 234 AB, .853 OPS

Player B is, of course, Ross Gload. Player A, with only a few more AB is Justin Morneau. And yes, I know, Morneau is 5 years younger. What difference does it make how old they are?
No. 2, I usually agree w/ you on the majority of your posts but I strongly disagree about Gload. The numbers he put up last year were largely at the end of the season and largely against teams who were out of the running, with expanded rosters and lesser pitching. Do i think that Gload is a serviceable backup? Absolutely. Am I ready to have over the reigns for a full season? Nope.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 12:21 PM
No. 2, I usually agree w/ you on the majority of your posts but I strongly disagree about Gload. The numbers he put up last year were largely at the end of the season and largely against teams who were out of the running, with expanded rosters and lesser pitching. Do i think that Gload is a serviceable backup? Absolutely. Am I ready to have over the reigns for a full season? Nope.Well, he did improve his numbers in Sept, but as of the end of June, he was hitting .280 with a .748 OPS. I don't know what justification you would have for projecting anything lower long-term. Regular playing time usually IMPROVES a role players' stats. I'm not suggesting a HOF career, but at the same time I'd grade him a lot better than a servicable backup. And they need lefties. Are there better 1B out there? Sure. But I woudn't regard replacing Gload as critical, either. I'll bet he puts up numbers as good or better than Dye.

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Yes. I don't think of it as "dumping" Paulie because they will acquire a major talent in return.

I do think the Sox need to add another starter. If they went into 2005 with 5 proven starters it would be fantastic for the team and much more important than the extra 10 HR Paulie is going to give the team over say Lee at first and Everett in LF.
If the Sox could land someone like a Pavano or a Clement, then I suppose I could favor such a move. Then you could move Garland to the 5th slot.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2004, 12:59 PM
You'd be NUTS to choose Konerko over Garland.

A lot of you are forgetting we have already lost Magglio Ordonez (35 HR a year potential) AND Jose Valentin (28 HRs last year). If we lose Konerko (42 HRs last year, more likely to hit 35 on average), we would be losing close to 100 HRs! We were already offensively challenged last year, take a possible 100 HRs away from that lineup and we'll be beggin for Jose to comeback. Dye will probably hit 20-25 maybe even 30 HRs to offset Valentin's offensive production (much better average and OBP probably). However, Carl Everett, Ross Gload, Juan Uribe, and whomever else would not make up the loss of Konerko and Magglio.

Of course we'd all prefer J.D. Drew over Dye but the acquisition of Dye was cheap enough (probably half of what Drew would have wanted) to keep us in the hunt for after SP.


That being said, if a deal takes place this weekend, Jon Garland will not be included. He can't be. I remember reading on these forums a post stating that a newly re-signed player can not be dealt for 60 days. I believe it's been about 14 days.

I still have a very strong feeling that either Matt Clement, Odalis Perez, or Javier Vazquez will be with the White Sox by the end of the year.

Funny thing about the Dye signing, yesterday on Boers & Bernstein when they had KW on, Boers ended the interview by saying something to the likes of, "Hey Kenny, can we call you after the press conference announcing you've signed Jermaine Dye". KW was silent for a minute. Finally, they laughed it off and KW said his phone broke off.

rdivaldi
12-09-2004, 01:02 PM
We were already offensively challenged last year
MLB runs scored 2004

1) Boston - 949
2) NY Yankees - 897
3) Chicago White Sox - 865

You might want to rethink that statement....

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 01:04 PM
MLB runs scored 2004

1) Boston - 949
2) NY Yankees - 897
3) Chicago White Sox - 865

You might want to rethink that statement....
I think the number of runs scored is a bit misleading...remember that the team plays half of its games in arguably the friendliest hitter's park in the MLB. What are the numbers like when the Sox are on the road? I bet they are a lot smaller proportionately.

chisoxmike
12-09-2004, 01:06 PM
If the Sox could land someone like a Pavano or a Clement, then I suppose I could favor such a move. Then you could move Garland to the 5th slot.
Amen!

Buehrle
Garcia
Pavano/Clement
Contreras
Garland

Wow, that brought a tear to my eye. I highly doubt Pavano is coming here. We didn't win and dine the guy, so we're out. Clement would be fine by me. No more problems with the 5th starter, a bullpen that now seems to be in order, a RF. If we can get a starting pitcher without letting Konerko or Lee go...wow, we may have a team on opening day!

anewman35
12-09-2004, 01:07 PM
That being said, if a deal takes place this weekend, Jon Garland will not be included. He can't be. I remember reading on these forums a post stating that a newly re-signed player can not be dealt for 60 days. I believe it's been about 14 days.


Doesn't that only apply to free agents, not players who resign to their old teams?

maurice
12-09-2004, 01:19 PM
Konerko for Vazquez gives the Sox an extremely deep, veteran pitching staff and leaves them with sufficient thump in their lineup after the Dye signing. Gload should be able to hold down 1B until Frank is ready to take his place in the lineup (but not in the field). Everett or Lee can be shifted over to take Gload's place.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2004, 01:24 PM
MLB runs scored 2004

1) Boston - 949
2) NY Yankees - 897
3) Chicago White Sox - 865

You might want to rethink that statement....
Case closed. In some cases, stats are tremendously misleading. What were we all complaining about last year aside from a 5th starter? Our offense. We probably scored 500 runs before the All-Star Break and 365 afterwards, ridicilous. It's amazing how some people just use stats to "MAKE A CASE". Come on, can you seriously tell me you were happy with our offense last year after Magglio and Frank went down? No, you could not have been. Now think about an offense without Magglio and Konerko. It's scary isn't it.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 01:24 PM
Doesn't that only apply to free agents, not players who resign to their old teams?The way I read it, it applies to any player who is ELIGIBLE for free agency, even if he re-signs with his old club. And it's not 60 days. It's the following June 15. But it doesn't apply to Garland, since he's not FA-eligible.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2004, 01:25 PM
Doesn't that only apply to free agents, not players who resign to their old teams?
That's what I thought as well and that's what I'm hoping. But someone else told me that it applies to re-signed players as well. Makes sense.

Iwritecode
12-09-2004, 01:25 PM
You'd be NUTS to choose Konerko over Garland.

A lot of you are forgetting we have already lost Magglio Ordonez (35 HR a year potential) AND Jose Valentin (28 HRs last year). If we lose Konerko (42 HRs last year, more likely to hit 35 on average), we would be losing close to 100 HRs! We were already offensively challenged last year, take a possible 100 HRs away from that lineup and we'll be beggin for Jose to comeback. Dye will probably hit 20-25 maybe even 30 HRs to offset Valentin's offensive production (much better average and OBP probably). However, Carl Everett, Ross Gload, Juan Uribe, and whomever else would not make up the loss of Konerko and Magglio.

Of course we'd all prefer J.D. Drew over Dye but the acquisition of Dye was cheap enough (probably half of what Drew would have wanted) to keep us in the hunt for after SP.


That being said, if a deal takes place this weekend, Jon Garland will not be included. He can't be. I remember reading on these forums a post stating that a newly re-signed player can not be dealt for 60 days. I believe it's been about 14 days.

I still have a very strong feeling that either Matt Clement, Odalis Perez, or Javier Vazquez will be with the White Sox by the end of the year.

Funny thing about the Dye signing, yesterday on Boers & Bernstein when they had KW on, Boers ended the interview by saying something to the likes of, "Hey Kenny, can we call you after the press conference announcing you've signed Jermaine Dye". KW was silent for a minute. Finally, they laughed it off and KW said his phone broke off.

And where have all those homeruns gotten this team the past four years???

On the other hand, if we keep Garland and use Konerko to get another SP it will be the first time they've started a season with 5 solid pitchers in how long???

Soxzilla
12-09-2004, 01:35 PM
I say we don't bite on this deal at all. Let RJ rot down in Arizona for stating he didn't want to pitch on the white sox. He can go bite my bag.

Hey Randy...

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_8238.jpg

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 01:38 PM
I say we don't bite on this deal at all. Let RJ rot down in Arizona for stating he didn't want to pitch on the white sox. He can go bite my bag.

Hey Randy...

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_8238.jpgAll things considered, I think I'd rather get Hudson than Vazquez. It will probably cost about the same in trade value. The difference is that Hudson is only signed through 2005. They would need to have him agree to an extension to make it worthwhile giving up much for him.

MisterB
12-09-2004, 01:39 PM
Case closed. In some cases, stats are tremendously misleading. What were we all complaining about last year aside from a 5th starter? Our offense. We probably scored 500 runs before the All-Star Break and 365 afterwards, ridicilous. It's amazing how some people just use stats to "MAKE A CASE". Come on, can you seriously tell me you were happy with our offense last year after Magglio and Frank went down? No, you could not have been. Now think about an offense without Magglio and Konerko. It's scary isn't it.
Sox runs per game:

April 5.43
May 5.71
June 6.28
July 3.96
Aug. 5.27
Sept. 5.62

Pre ASG: 5.50
Post ASG: 5.17

July was horrible after Thomas and Ordonez went down for good, but the offense bounced back by August (unfortunately the pitching fell apart at the same time).

wdelaney72
12-09-2004, 01:39 PM
I'd be more comfortable with the Sox finding a 5th starter on the market instead of wondering whether or not Gload could be the everyday 1B. Trade Garland.
I'm not a Garland fan, but he consistently pitches .500. He is a solid #5 starter. The problem is the Sox have kept trying to make hiim a #3 or #4. Bringing in Hudson or Vazquez and keeping Garland at #5 makes for a VERY attractive rotation.

I'm not a PK hater, but given how the #5 spot has killed us for the last 3 seasons, this is a no brainer. PK goes and Garland stays.

Also, losing PK's salary, which is twice Garland's helps us sign Hudson to an extension.

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 01:40 PM
All things considered, I think I'd rather get Hudson than Vazquez. It will probably cost about the same in trade value. The difference is that Hudson is only signed through 2005. They would need to have him agree to an extension to make it worthwhile giving up much for him.
You're also forgetting that there are probably more teams wanting Hudson, and I think his trade value is higher because he doesn't have a huge contract and he is the better pitcher.

rdivaldi
12-09-2004, 01:44 PM
We probably scored 500 runs before the All-Star Break and 365 afterwards, ridicilous.
Sorry man, but you're flat out wrong. See the post showing our avg. runs scored per game.

It's amazing how some people just use stats to "MAKE A CASE".
Better than pulling stuff out of your proverbial A-S-S.....

rdivaldi
12-09-2004, 01:45 PM
I think the number of runs scored is a bit misleading...remember that the team plays half of its games in arguably the friendliest hitter's park in the MLB. What are the numbers like when the Sox are on the road? I bet they are a lot smaller proportionately.
Even if that were the case, our offense is not the problem....

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 01:47 PM
Sorry man, but you're flat out wrong. See the post showing our avg. runs scored per game.


Better than pulling stuff out of your proverbial A-S-S.....:worship: :worship: :worship:

Preach it!

Sometimes you just can't convince some of the people on this board. :rolleyes:

jake27
12-09-2004, 01:49 PM
ive heard a lot of people in here say "you cant trade konerko, we already lost mags and jose, where are the home runs going to come from" what have we won with the "home run hitting" club? nothing!!! pitching will win more games than hitting home runs. someone stated in this thread earlier that we will lose 100 home runs if we lose konerko and with the loss of mags and jose. i think we will get 50 of those back from the RF, SS and 1B position (the positions where we lost all the home runs). and with out those home runs, we are going to produce more runs that we did last year! we have won squat with this home run hitting team so why do people still want it? i think solid pitching, defnese and an offensive that will still hit you a lot of home runs, but that can produce runs too (hopeuflly) will do better than our home run hitting line up.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 01:52 PM
You're also forgetting that there are probably more teams wanting Hudson, and I think his trade value is higher because he doesn't have a huge contract and he is the better pitcher.But Hudson has only one year left on his contract. Plus, any potential trading partner for Vazquez is going to want the Yanks to throw in lots of $$$, which usually means they have to add another player. Often these things come down to who has what the other team needs. If Oakland is looking for a 1B, who's got a better one to offer? Maybe they're looking for an OF, in which case CLee might fill the bill. Beane would surely love Aaron Rowand. It really depends on a lot of things. But I wouldn't rule it out.

Wealz
12-09-2004, 01:53 PM
Even if that were the case, our offense is not the problem....
If Ben Davis, Joe Crede and Willie Harris combine for more than 50% of the AB's they had last year it is.

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 02:01 PM
But Hudson has only one year left on his contract. Plus, any potential trading partner for Vazquez is going to want the Yanks to throw in lots of $$$, which usually means they have to add another player. Often these things come down to who has what the other team needs. If Oakland is looking for a 1B, who's got a better one to offer? Maybe they're looking for an OF, in which case CLee might fill the bill. Beane would surely love Aaron Rowand. It really depends on a lot of things. But I wouldn't rule it out.
Vazquez can also demand a trade after the 2005 season. I wouldn't give up Aaron Rowand for one year of Hudson, and I don't think KW will either.

bobj4400
12-09-2004, 02:01 PM
Why do you want to get rid of Konerko so badly and give up his 40+ home runs only to put Gload there for Vasquez?
I will bet you a pair of tickets to a Bears game in the 2005 season that Konerko doesnt hit 40 homeruns again. The guy is at the peak of his value and to trade him wouldnt be a bad move. Keeping him on isnt a bad move either, but dont expect last year's numbers. .285, 30, 95 is more realistic.

Hangar18
12-09-2004, 02:02 PM
I don't understand this whole "Dump Paulie" syndrome that seemingly everyone on this board is suffering from. You'd rather have Garland than Paulie? C'mon now.


:reinsy Thats because the guy in the picture has Been HAMMERING
sox fans to take the Cheaper Way out for 20something years now, something
was going to stick

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 02:08 PM
Vazquez can also demand a trade after the 2005 season. I wouldn't give up Aaron Rowand for one year of Hudson, and I don't think KW will either.He can, but it seems unlikely. What's the chances he's going to get anything close to what he's being paid on the FA market? As I said, how much you're going to give up for Hudson is going to depend on whether you can sign him to an extension. It's not uncommon for a trade to be contingent on an extension being signed within a certain period of time. Usually it's not announced until after that time has passed.

wood28
12-09-2004, 02:11 PM
Wasn't the big problem with the Yankees last year starting pitching? C'mon they wanted E-Lo. Why do we want two fifths of their bad rotation?

tstrike2000
12-09-2004, 02:54 PM
The signings of Hermanson and Dye are a moot point. I believe the Sox are still 3 players away from being not only division winners but go deep in the playoffs. Ok, ok, I know we've said that the past 4 years. We need a 2nd baseman, leadoff hitter, and one more bonafide starter. If this 3-way deal pans out, trade Konerko to get Vazquez. I wouldn't trade Garland because we need all the pitching we can get. I'm not sold on Contreras at all and pitching is the bigger priority. Then if we could get a 2nd baseman who could leadoff who's name isn't Willie Harris, awesome.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 02:56 PM
The signings of Hermanson and Dye are a moot point. I believe the Sox are still 3 players away from being not only division winners but go deep in the playoffs. Ok, ok, I know we've said that the past 4 years. We need a 2nd baseman, leadoff hitter, and one more bonafide starter. If this 3-way deal pans out, trade Konerko to get Vazquez. I wouldn't trade Garland because we need all the pitching we can get. I'm not sold on Contreras at all and pitching is the bigger priority. Then if we could get a 2nd baseman who could leadoff who's name isn't Willie Harris, awesome.Exactly, trade Konerko for Javier Vazquez and sign Miguel Cairo to play 2B with Willie.

ilsox7
12-09-2004, 02:59 PM
Part of an article from espn.com's Bob Klapisch:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=1942591

Now...consider the source and if this has been posted already my apologies...I have tried to follow the thread but may have missed it. So, if we're looking for a 1st Baseman, it goes without saying PK is gone. I really think we may see Vasquez in a Sox uniform, which is fine by me.

FIRST BASE: With the Yankees trying to squirm out of the remaining four years of their commitment to Jason Giambi (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5386) -- either by voiding his deal or simply reaching a cash-settlement to make him go away -- the number of teams looking for a first baseman exceeds the number of elite-caliber candidates.


http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5178.jpg
Delgado The Bombers, Orioles, White Sox and Mets are all looking. The Diamondbacks were in the hunt, too, before signing Troy Glaus (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6063) to a four-year deal. That leaves free agent Carlos Delgado (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5178) in the enviable position of picking his next team and the length and terms of his contract. The same goes for Richie Sexson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5931), although he's slightly less attractive to suitors, considering the Diamondbacks offered him arbitration.

Jerome
12-09-2004, 03:00 PM
Thank goodness for the either. I'd do Garland for Vazquez. But not for Paulie. That would be a ripoff.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2004, 03:02 PM
ive heard a lot of people in here say "you cant trade konerko, we already lost mags and jose, where are the home runs going to come from" what have we won with the "home run hitting" club? nothing!!! pitching will win more games than hitting home runs.
Not when you play 81 games a year at the Cell. Even the best pitchers in the game wouldn't be at the top of their games if they played for the Sox. Thus you need a team that can hit a lot of home runs just so they can get a bulk of their wins at home.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:15 PM
Thank goodness for the either. I'd do Garland for Vazquez. But not for Paulie. That would be a ripoff.Unfortunately, according to Peter Gammons, all three teams are discussing the following trade...

To Yankees:
Randy Johnson

To White Sox:
Javier Vazquez

To Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Of course, Gammons is wrong alot...

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 03:15 PM
Think KW, in his infiinte, wisdom convinces Beane-o that Borchard is what KW thinks his is? Then, trade him for Hudson?

Just a stupid, random thought to make you smile... :rolleyes:

anewman35
12-09-2004, 03:16 PM
Unfortunately, according to Peter Gammons, all three teams are discussing the following trade...

To Yankees:
Randy Johnson

To White Sox:
Javier Vazquez

To Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland
There's no way I can see that happening unless the White Sox got more players or a ton of money. Kenny isn't that stupid.

Foulke29
12-09-2004, 03:16 PM
Although this kills me to say, I would rather give up Paulie, he is due 8 million this year. I think Gload can play a good first. But on the flip side we are losing 25 more HRS. With Vazquez our rotation would be set. I would love if AZ included Shea Hillenbrand who can play both 1st and 3rd if Gload or Crede bites it.
Are we really losing 25 HR? Ask yourself. Gload hit seven in 234 AB. I could see him hitting as many as 20 - which isn't bad. The thing I like about Gload more than Paulie is that he drew 20 BB to 35 strikeouts. I think his K rate could be lower than Paulie's.

Keep Garland. Konerko has had his career year. That's not to say he won't hit 35 or 40 again, but last year is really the peak of Paulie. Garland is still young and just getting started in my opinion.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:17 PM
There's no way I can see that happening unless the White Sox got more players or a ton of money. Kenny isn't that stupid.I'm guessing it will be alot of money from the Yankees to pay for Vazquez' contract...

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 03:17 PM
Unfortunately, according to Peter Gammons, all three teams are discussing the following trade...

To Yankees:
Randy Johnson

To White Sox:
Javier Vazquez

To Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Of course, Gammons is wrong alot...
That makes no sense, unless there's a whole lot of cash coming along with Javy - i.e. enough to go get another solid starter (or another bat). I will go on record as saying that would be a bad deal. Not a terrible deal, but a slightly bad one.

Foulke29
12-09-2004, 03:18 PM
There's no way I can see that happening unless the White Sox got more players or a ton of money. Kenny isn't that stupid.
It's giving up a lot, but just last year, Vazquez was considered the hot free agent pitcher signing. Many analysts projected him to have better number than Mussina and Brown. I don't think that's a stretch for Vazquez. It seems to me that most pitchers struggle their first year in New York. I think he's ready to pitch for the Sox.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:19 PM
That makes no sense, unless there's a whole lot of cash coming along with Javy - i.e. enough to go get another solid starter (or another bat). I will go on record as saying that would be a bad deal. Not a terrible deal, but a slightly bad one.I would agree with you. It's a bad deal unless we get another player or a ton of money.

ilsox7
12-09-2004, 03:20 PM
That makes no sense, unless there's a whole lot of cash coming along with Javy - i.e. enough to go get another solid starter (or another bat). I will go on record as saying that would be a bad deal. Not a terrible deal, but a slightly bad one.
It's only good if NYY pay basically all of Vasquez's contract, or at least enough of it for us to make a significant signing which we otherwise would not have been able to make.

nasox
12-09-2004, 03:24 PM
We have to remember this is just speculation, and we don't know anything for sure. This may be bogus.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:24 PM
It's only good if NYY pay basically all of Vasquez's contract, or at least enough of it for us to make a significant signing which we otherwise would not have been able to make.Yes, and that we spend that money on another starting pitcher (Matt Clement or Odalis Perez) and possibly a 2B, such as Miguel Cairo.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 03:24 PM
It's only good if NYY pay basically all of Vasquez's contract, or at least enough of it for us to make a significant signing which we otherwise would not have been able to make.
I will say this: If the offseason ends up turning the potential group of Borchard, Konerko, Garland, Grilli, Jackson and into Dye, Hermanson, Vazquez, Clement, Gload - Kenny's up for GM of the year.

Or failing that, go get JD Drew using the $$$.

OEO Magglio
12-09-2004, 03:29 PM
If we can somehow trade Pauly and end up with Vazquez I'd be thrilled. If this were to happen the whole pitching staff would be solidified, we'd by far and away have the best rotation in and have a very solid bullpen also. Then if that were to happen, maybe add a Miguel Cairo to the mix and I'd be very happy with the offseason.

ilsox7
12-09-2004, 03:32 PM
I will say this: If the offseason ends up turning the potential group of Borchard, Konerko, Garland, Grilli, Jackson and into Dye, Hermanson, Vazquez, Clement, Gload - Kenny's up for GM of the year.

Or failing that, go get JD Drew using the $$$.
I think it's a pipe dream, but if KW can essentially turn PK and JG into JV and Clement, that's awesome. We've spent the last 4 years waiting on out sluggers to win games for us and they haven't gotten us past the Twins. It's about time we focus on pitching and let everything else fall into place.

A rotation of FG, MB, JV, MC and JC is fantastic. And with Frank (?), Dye, Rowand, and CLee, we'd have enough pop in the line-up to get by. Also, consider that if we are in it in June, I think it'd be much easier and we'd be more likely to rent-a-slugger. The other thing to remember is out of that rotation all would be signed to 2/3 year deals except MB, I think. Oh well, just a little December Dreaming.

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 03:35 PM
I think it's a pipe dream, but if KW can essentially turn PK and JG into JV and Clement, that's awesome. We've spent the last 4 years waiting on out sluggers to win games for us and they haven't gotten us past the Twins. It's about time we focus on pitching and let everything else fall into place.

A rotation of FG, MB, JV, MC and JC is fantastic. And with Frank (?), Dye, Rowand, and CLee, we'd have enough pop in the line-up to get by. Also, consider that if we are in it in June, I think it'd be much easier and we'd be more likely to rent-a-slugger. The other thing to remember is out of that rotation all would be signed to 2/3 year deals except MB, I think. Oh well, just a little December Dreaming.
If they can get either Clement or Vasquez or another comparable pitcher, I'd honestly prefer to keep Garland. So long as he is a #5 starter he will be fine and of course he still has that potential to be a top 3 pitcher in the future - I mean he's only 24, right?

Tekijawa
12-09-2004, 03:35 PM
The other thing to remember is out of that rotation all would be signed to 2/3 year deals except MB, I think. Oh well, just a little December Dreaming.
I believe Buehrle is signed through 2007 right?

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 03:37 PM
I believe Buehrle is signed through 2007 right?
That would be no.

The only player on the Sox roster signed past 2006 is Garcia.

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 03:37 PM
If we do give up PK, why can't we get Hillenbrand from AZ, especially since they signed Glaus? If they kept him, they'd have 3 1B/3B on their team in the NL.

Just another thought...

Also, I keep hearing about needing a left-handed bat. Koskie is still out there, granted he has been offered arbitration. He can hit for average and has some pop. I think he can even steal a base or two.

Just another thought...

Tekijawa
12-09-2004, 03:39 PM
The only player on the Sox roster signed past 2006 is Garcia.
That's when we (Sox) move to Vegas right?

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 03:39 PM
If they can get either Clement or Vasquez or another comparable pitcher, I'd honestly prefer to keep Garland. So long as he is a #5 starter he will be fine and of course he still has that potential to be a top 3 pitcher in the future - I mean he's only 24, right?
Problem is Clement+Garland+Konerko = 20mil (about 10 more than we have to spend)

However, Vazquez+Cash+Clement = maybe $12-15mil, which is a lot more likely.

nitetrain8601
12-09-2004, 03:40 PM
I don't want to give up both unless we get Hudson and a midlevel prospect or Vasquez and it is assured Renteria is going to sign with us.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:40 PM
If we do give up PK, why can't we get Hillenbrand from AZ, especially since they signed Glaus? If they kept him, they'd have 3 1B/3B on their team in the NL.

Just another thought...

Also, I keep hearing about needing a left-handed bat. Koskie is still out there, granted he has been offered arbitration. He can hit for average and has some pop. I think he can even steal a base or two.

Just another thought...Good point. I would definately do the following deal if the Yankees also sent us some money for Vazquez' contract...

To Yankees:
Randy Johnson

To White Sox:
Javier Vasquez
Shea Hillenbrand

To Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Hillenbrand would make a great first baseman for us along with Gload as our lefty 1B. He could even play 3B if Crede sucks it up again next season.

rdivaldi
12-09-2004, 03:44 PM
That would be no.

The only player on the Sox roster signed past 2006 is Garcia.
That's not necessarily true. The Sox do hold a player option on Buehrle for the 2007 season at $9.5 mil.

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 03:45 PM
Problem is Clement+Garland+Konerko = 20mil (about 10 more than we have to spend)

However, Vazquez+Cash+Clement = maybe $12-15mil, which is a lot more likely.
I already said that I was willing to trade Konerko for Vazquez, so I don't see this as an issue. I just don't see the point in dumping Garland for another 3-5 tier pitcher at this stage of his career.

OEO Magglio
12-09-2004, 03:45 PM
Good point. I would definately do the following deal if the Yankees also sent us some money for Vazquez' contract...

To Yankees:
Randy Johnson

To White Sox:
Javier Vasquez
Shea Hillenbrand

To Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Hillenbrand would make a great first baseman for us along with Gload as our lefty 1B. He could even play 3B if Crede sucks it up again next season.

I'd rather hold on to Garland and let them keep HIllenbrand.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:46 PM
I'd rather hold on to Garland and let them keep HIllenbrand.I agree because we will still need a 5th starter if we trade Garland. But if Arizona wants both Konerko AND Garland we should get Hillenbrand as well.

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 03:46 PM
That's not necessarily true. The Sox do hold a player option on Buehrle for the 2007 season at $9.5 mil.
I'm pretty sure that's a team option isn't it? I also thought it was for 2006. I admit it's been a while since he signed the deal and I am going off of memory.

You sure on those numbers?

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 03:49 PM
I already said that I was willing to trade Konerko for Vazquez, so I don't see this as an issue. I just don't see the point in dumping Garland for another 3-5 tier pitcher at this stage of his career.It will probably take more than Konerko to get the Yankees to put up significant cash. Their offer to Arizona included at least $10M. That's going to cost more than just PK. If they throw in Garland, by my math, there's enough left to sign Clement. But Clement still gives me the willies. That arm motion is scary. I think I'd rather just keep Garland.

MRKARNO
12-09-2004, 03:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that's a team option isn't it? I also thought it was for 2006. I admit it's been a while since he signed the deal and I am going off of memory.

You sure on those numbers?
I am. Buehrle is guarenteed through 2006 and the team option is for 9.5 mil in 2007.

rdivaldi
12-09-2004, 03:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that's a team option isn't it? I also thought it was for 2006. I admit it's been a while since he signed the deal and I am going off of memory.

You sure on those numbers?
Yeah, it's a team option, my stupid mistake...

I'm positive on the numbers, it goes like this:

$3.5 million in 2004, $5.75 million in 2005 and $7.75 million in 2006. Club option at $9.5 million for 2007.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 03:56 PM
It will probably take more than Konerko to get the Yankees to put up significant cash. Their offer to Arizona included at least $10M. That's going to cost more than just PK. If they throw in Garland, by my math, there's enough left to sign Clement. But Clement still gives me the willies. That arm motion is scary. I think I'd rather just keep Garland.
I'd do Koney for Vazquez with minimal cash (Keeps payroll relatively flat). But I have a feeling DBacks are going to want Garland.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 03:57 PM
I'd do Koney for Vazquez with minimal cash (Keeps payroll relatively flat). But I have a feeling DBacks are going to want Garland.Agreed, and that will once again leave us with no 5th starter. :whiner:

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:04 PM
I'd do Koney for Vazquez with minimal cash (Keeps payroll relatively flat). But I have a feeling DBacks are going to want Garland.If the Snakes lose RJ, they'll have only one decent pitcher left. They're going to want Garland. But if the Yanks aren't sending cash our way, they can send it to AZ and they can use it to sign a FA pitcher. Lots of ways to make this work.

faneidde
12-09-2004, 04:05 PM
We can go out and get a decent fifth starter. Every team is not going to have 5 aces. If we can get a record like 6-10 or 7-12 out of our fifth starter spot, we should be fine. The problem has been that in the past we've had out fifth starters go 2-25. We can get a guy to go 6-10 or 7-12 very cheap. I'd like to know where you guys are going get a first baseman who hit 40 home runs last year for cheap. Paulie is also a team leader and one of the few players on the Sox that the fanbase really identifies with. Last year, the Sox had 4 really marquee players (Konerko, Thomas, Lee, and Mags), attendance is going to take a big hit if we lose half of those players and one is hurt.

I guarantee that the Sox will not make the playoffs if they trade PK and don't find someone other than Ross Gload to replace his production. Hey, how'd things work out for Colorado when they went all pitching with Neagle and Hampton?

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 04:08 PM
I am. Buehrle is guarenteed through 2006 and the team option is for 9.5 mil in 2007.
Okay, so if the team is still good and Buehrle continues to pitch well, then he MAYBE has a contract past 2006...:D:

ilsox7
12-09-2004, 04:13 PM
I was thinking...with the rumor being PK+JG...do you think Posada would be included? Just throwing this out there, flame away!

34 Inch Stick
12-09-2004, 04:15 PM
Good point. I would definately do the following deal if the Yankees also sent us some money for Vazquez' contract...

To Yankees:
Randy Johnson

To White Sox:
Javier Vasquez
Shea Hillenbrand

To Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Hillenbrand would make a great first baseman for us along with Gload as our lefty 1B. He could even play 3B if Crede sucks it up again next season.
Looks like the Yankees are giving up the least. Since we are in fantasy let's get Tom Gordon back in the mix.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:16 PM
I was thinking...with the rumow being PK+JG...do you think Posada would be included? Just throwing this out there, flame away!:rolling::rolling::rolling:
Yeah. Maybe if we give them Joe B. they'll throw in Jeter, too.

ilsox7
12-09-2004, 04:18 PM
:rolling::rolling::rolling:
Yeah. Maybe if we give them Joe B. they'll throw in Jeter, too.
I'm just saying ya never know...King George wants RJ and if KW holds the keys to him getting RJ, crazy things may happen. Like I said, I was just throwing it out there that there could be a permutation of this deal that includes Posada.

California Sox
12-09-2004, 04:20 PM
Personally, if we're looking for Arizona to throw in a position player (and I don't think they've contemplated giving up RJ AND something else) I want Chad Tracy instead of Hillenbrand. Hillenbrand is Joe Crede without the defense. Tracy is a left-handed hitter, who's clutchy and while not a great defender, could definitely hold down either third or first.

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 04:23 PM
I forgot about Tracy, but it might be unlikely that they give him up, especially if they are going with a youth movement. But, hell yeah! Grab him if they are giving up a position player.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:26 PM
I forgot about Tracy, but it might be unlikely that they give him up, especially if they are going with a youth movement. But, hell yeah! Grab him if they are giving up a position player.You expect Arizona to give up Johnson AND a position player? Are you listening to yourself?

socko82
12-09-2004, 04:28 PM
If you can trade Konerko for Vazquez and get the money to even out you've fixed the rotation and you still have the $10 million you saved on Mags/Dye. They can then take that $10 million and get into the bidding for Renteria/Caberera and make Uribe your everyday secondbasemen.

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 04:30 PM
You expect Arizona to give up Johnson AND a position player? Are you listening to yourself?
If we give up PK, then they have 4 1B/3B's, Glaus, Konerko, Hillenbrand, and Tracy. Plus, you can't plug one of them into DH. So, why would you have two corner IF's on the bench in the NL?

Wealz
12-09-2004, 04:39 PM
The most important thing in getting rid of Konerko is to get back as little salary in return as possible imo.

How about AZ gets Konerko and Garland pays their salaries, NY gets Johnson pays his salary, White Sox get Kevin Brown with the Yankees paying his salary?

Probably not feasable, but it would free up $12M for the Sox which would be enough to fix 2B (Polanco), 3B (Koskie), and perhaps upgrade at catcher.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:43 PM
The most important thing in getting rid of Konerko is to get back as little salary in return as possible imo.

How about AZ gets Konerko and Garland pays their salaries, NY gets Johnson pays his salary, White Sox get Kevin Brown with the Yankees paying his salary?

Probably not feasable, but it would free up $12M for the Sox which would be enough to fix 2B (Polanco), 3B (Koskie), and perhaps upgrade at catcher.Kevin Brown???

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!

Wealz
12-09-2004, 04:44 PM
Kevin Brown???

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!
Why not?

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:45 PM
Why not?Who's going to pitch the other half of the year?

munchman33
12-09-2004, 04:46 PM
Kevin Brown???

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!
If the Yankees pick up his entire salary. And only then. Then I say:

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MeanFish
12-09-2004, 04:48 PM
How about this? It could work :)

Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Yankees:
Randy Johnson

White Sox:
Javier Vasquez
Tom Gordon
Dioner Navarro

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:50 PM
How about this? It could work :)

Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Yankees:
Randy Johnson

White Sox:
Javier Vasquez
Tom Gordon
Dioner NavarroI see only one teensy little problem with it. The Yankees aren't %&^#@*# stupid!

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 04:54 PM
How about this? It could work :)

Diamondbacks:
Paul Konerko
Jon Garland

Yankees:
Randy Johnson

White Sox:
Javier Vasquez
Tom Gordon
Dioner NavarroOk, how about this scenario...?

Diamondbacks get...
Paul Konerko
John Garland

Yankmes get...
Randy Johnson

White Sox get...
Javier Vazquez from NYY
Shea Hillenbrand from AZ

Then, Beltre leaves LA for greener pastures. Then, send Crede to LA for Shawn Green who then plays 1B. What do you think?

Wealz
12-09-2004, 04:56 PM
Who's going to pitch the other half of the year?
Is he durable? No, but in theory that's one of the reasons why the Yankees would pay his salary. You have to take some chance if you want to get a possible top-of-the-rotation starter and save $12M.

Not to mention that Brown is an extreme GB pitcher which is perfect for the cell.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 04:59 PM
Ok, how about this scenario...?

Diamondbacks get...
Paul Konerko
John Garland

Yankmes get...
Randy Johnson

White Sox get...
Javier Vazquez from NYY
Shea Hillenbrand from AZ

Then, Beltre leaves LA for greener pastures. Then, send Crede to LA for Shawn Green who then plays 1B. What do you think?I see absolutely no reason the D-backs would just throw in Hillenbrand when it's perfectly obvious that everybody involved would do the deal without him. And for a minute there I thought you were seriously suggesting Crede for Shawn Greene. You really had me going there for a while.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 05:00 PM
Is he durable? No, but in theory that's one of the reasons why the Yankees would pay his salary. You have to take some chance if you want to get a possible top-of-the-rotation starter and save $12M.

Not to mention that Brown is an extreme GB pitcher which is perfect for the cell.You didn't answer my question. Who's going to pitch the other half of the year?

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 05:01 PM
You didn't answer my question. Who's going to pitch the other half of the year?:)

HAHA! So true. Kevin Brown is an injury waiting to happen, where ever he goes.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 05:01 PM
I see only one teensy little problem with it. The Yankees aren't %&^#@*# stupid!
Aren't the Yankees already offering that package straight up for RJ? I think they'd do it in a heartbeat. I think the DBacks would insist on more though. They'd want another young player coming to them.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 05:04 PM
I see absolutely no reason the D-backs would just throw in Hillenbrand when it's perfectly obvious that everybody involved would do the deal without him. And for a minute there I thought you were seriously suggesting Crede for Shawn Greene. You really had me going there for a while.
IIRC, Hillenbrand is on Gammons list of potential non-tenders. That would be why the DBacks would include him. The question is - what's his salary likely to be if the Sox get him & offer arb?

The 2d question is: Do we really want him if we have other options?

Really, unless it's pretty much a straight swap of Koney for Vazquez, I don't think I'd be in favor of this deal. I don't want to give Garland+Koney for Vazquez, and I'm not that thrilled with the other pieces we could realistically get back from AZ or NY.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 05:04 PM
Aren't the Yankees already offering that package straight up for RJ? I think they'd do it in a heartbeat. I think the DBacks would insist on more though. They'd want another young player coming to them.No, the D-backs wanted them to throw in Gordon. That's when the Yankees hung up.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 05:04 PM
No, the D-backs wanted them to throw in Gordon. That's when the Yankees hung up.
I thought the DBacks wanted Gordon AND another pitcher. Wasnt that where the list ranging from Hudson to Chacon (:?: ) came in?

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 05:05 PM
I see absolutely no reason the D-backs would just throw in Hillenbrand when it's perfectly obvious that everybody involved would do the deal without him. And for a minute there I thought you were seriously suggesting Crede for Shawn Greene. You really had me going there for a while.
I'm just that because Green would fill the hole at 1B with the departure of PK. Plus, he's a lefty with power and can play the OF in an emergency or for a different look in the lineup, albeit, I would't suggest that. I'm just throwing out ideas over here...

Wealz
12-09-2004, 05:06 PM
You didn't answer my question. Who's going to pitch the other half of the year?
Dustin Hermanson.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 05:12 PM
IIRC, Hillenbrand is on Gammons list of potential non-tenders. That would be why the DBacks would include him. The question is - what's his salary likely to be if the Sox get him & offer arb?

The 2d question is: Do we really want him if we have other options?

Really, unless it's pretty much a straight swap of Koney for Vazquez, I don't think I'd be in favor of this deal. I don't want to give Garland+Koney for Vazquez, and I'm not that thrilled with the other pieces we could realistically get back from AZ or NY.But why would they just throw Hillenbrand in if everyone was willing to do the deal without him? They might be able to trade him for something before the deadline. I'd think the Sox would have to add a prospect, but probably not a high one, since they could get Hillenbrand by just waiting until Dec 20. Hillenbrand made $2.6M last year, so you could probably get him for about the same or maybe less. I think he'd be a great addition. If they trade PK, they're going to need another 1B. Also, with Uribe playing SS, they have no backup at 3B, and Hillenbrand fills that spot, too.

The deal probably comes down to either PK for Vazquez straight up or PK+JG for Vazquez + cash. With the cash they could sign a FA pitcher to fill Garland's spot. It comes out more or less the same. It just depends on if you want to replace Garland with a FA that's available for that amount of money.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 05:14 PM
I'm just that because Green would fill the hole at 1B with the departure of PK. Plus, he's a lefty with power and can play the OF in an emergency or for a different look in the lineup, albeit, I would't suggest that. I'm just throwing out ideas over here...Greene would be great. But you're NOT going to get him for Joe Crede unless DePodesta's completely taken leave of his senses.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 05:15 PM
But why would they just throw Hillenbrand in if everyone was willing to do the deal without him? They might be able to trade him for something before the deadline. I'd think the Sox would have to add a prospect, but probably not a high one, since they could get Hillenbrand by just waiting until Dec 20. Hillenbrand made $2.6M last year, so you could probably get him for about the same or maybe less. I think he'd be a great addition. If they trade PK, they're going to need another 1B. Also, with Uribe playing SS, they have no backup at 3B, and Hillenbrand fills that spot, too.

The deal probably comes down to either PK for Vazquez straight up or PK+JG for Vazquez + cash. With the cash they could sign a FA pitcher to fill Garland's spot. It comes out more or less the same. It just depends on if you want to replace Garland with a FA that's available for that amount of money.
I'm not convinced that you'll get enough to find someone better than Garland. Is Odalis Perez going to be better? I'm not sure. If you get enough to get a Clement, fine.

Based on that, I'm not sure that all parties would be willing to do the deal if Garland is included unless the Sox get more back. That'll either be Yankee cash or possibly the DBacks giving up a player that they're likely to let go for free anyway.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 05:16 PM
Greene would be great. But you're NOT going to get him for Joe Crede unless DePodesta's completely taken leave of his senses.
I disagree - you might get him, but you won't get much cash along with him. DePodesta would likely leap at the opportunity to turn Greene(16mil) into Crede (1mil) + Drew (10mil) + Odalis Perez (5mil).

EMel9281
12-09-2004, 05:20 PM
Greene would be great. But you're NOT going to get him for Joe Crede unless DePodesta's completely taken leave of his senses.
Agreed. But, I couldn't think of anyone or anything else to throw in there. Suggestions? How about Borchard? J/K For real, any ideas?

Paulwny
12-09-2004, 05:23 PM
Even if the 3 teams agree to a deal, RJ will hold it up while he negotiates a 1-2 yr. contract extension. RJ still holds the trump card.

If the deal goes through, with all the money the yanks are willing to eat, payroll will exxceed $200 mil.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 05:24 PM
Even if the 3 teams agree to a deal, RJ will hold it up while he negotiates a 1-2 yr. contract extension. RJ still holds the trump.

If the deal goes through, with all the money the yanks are willing to eat, payroll will exxceed $200 mil.The Yankees would gladly give RJ a 1 or 2 year contract extension. :?: When has payroll ever been a problem for them? Adding RJ will only increase profits.

RKMeibalane
12-09-2004, 05:30 PM
Let's not forget Frank always hit better when he played the field. Don't know if that's a realistic option or not.
We'll find out sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 05:30 PM
I'm not convinced that you'll get enough to find someone better than Garland. Is Odalis Perez going to be better? I'm not sure. If you get enough to get a Clement, fine.

Based on that, I'm not sure that all parties would be willing to do the deal if Garland is included unless the Sox get more back. That'll either be Yankee cash or possibly the DBacks giving up a player that they're likely to let go for free anyway.The Sox should definately not include Garland unless they get more back than Vazquez. I wouldn't give up Garland to get Hillenbrand back. The original NY offer was for $10M. You could sign Clement for that, but I have lots of reservations about Clement. I think I'd rather play it safe and keep Garland.

nitetrain8601
12-09-2004, 06:27 PM
The Sox should definately not include Garland unless they get more back than Vazquez. I wouldn't give up Garland to get Hillenbrand back. The original NY offer was for $10M. You could sign Clement for that, but I have lots of reservations about Clement. I think I'd rather play it safe and keep Garland.
I think I would do the same too. Bringing in Shea just hurts Crede's confidence and it is bound to end up bad with Shea not being happy about being a bench player(I think that was the reason Boston traded him to ARZ). Crede barring injury is going to be the starter. Shea wouldn't sit well with that. Clement scares me as well. He's good. I don't think he would do that well though when you consider the fact that he would be playing in the AL(add 1 run) and pitching at the cell(add another run).

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 06:33 PM
I think I would do the same too. Bringing in Shea just hurts Crede's confidence and it is bound to end up bad with Shea not being happy about being a bench player(I think that was the reason Boston traded him to ARZ). Crede barring injury is going to be the starter. Shea wouldn't sit well with that. Clement scares me as well. He's good. I don't think he would do that well though when you consider the fact that he would be playing in the AL(add 1 run) and pitching at the cell(add another run).Shea Hillenbrand can also play 1B. :?: Hillenbrand could platoon with Gload at 1B since Shea is a right-handed bat and Gload is a lefty. He could also be moved to 3B if Crede has another crappy year. What would be wrong with that?

nitetrain8601
12-09-2004, 06:45 PM
Shea Hillenbrand can also play 1B. :?: Hillenbrand could platoon with Gload at 1B since Shea is a right-handed bat and Gload is a lefty. He could also be moved to 3B if Crede has another crappy year. What would be wrong with that?
I thought he didn't like playing 1B(which is why he didn't play much of first with Boston). That's why Glaus was to play 1B, but he dismissed that too.

Soxzilla
12-09-2004, 06:55 PM
To get a little unrealistic for a change, I came up with quite an interesting idea, granted, it causes payroll to exceed 80 million ... but come on, this idea makes too much sense not to do!

We trade Konerko in order to acquire Vazquez (Maybe get cash in the process, while the Yankees get RJ). Then you do the completely unthinkable, and SIGN Carlos freakin' Beltran. And voila ... the White Sox are a perennial freakin' powerhouse.

Now, you not only have a studly rotation, the best in the Central, no doubt w/ Buehrle, Garcia, Vazquez, Contreras, Garland. But you have a solid bullpen in Hermanson, Adkins, Grilli, Diaz, Politte, Marte and Takatsu. But your lineup is EVEN freakin' better! Here is the lineup... (considering frank is healthy, if not, DH Everett).

CF - Beltran / RF - Rowand / 1B - Lee / DH - Thomas / LF - Dye / SS - Uribe / 3B - Crede / C - Burke(Davis) / 2B - Peapod.

With a bench of Gload, Everett, T-money, Valdez and the sitting catcher.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh god I just creamed my pants. WHY CAN'T OUR OWNER SPEND MONEY! WE ARE ON THE CUSP, THE FREAKIN' CUSP!

:reinsy
"The only thing you're on the cusp of is spending my money. You go to hell Zilla ... you go to hell AND YOU DIE!"

wdelaney72
12-09-2004, 06:58 PM
If you are are serious about Dustin Hermanson pitching the second half of the year as a starter, you're high.

Folks, this is a no brainer. We CANNOT send Jon Garland away without another starting pitcher. We cannot, repeat CANNOT go another year with a giant ?? as the 5th starter.

The payroll with Hermanson and Dye is at roughly $69 million. Add Vazquez or RJ or Tim hudson - Paulie's salary and we're still going to be close to $75 million. The ONLY way Uncle Jerry would consider going more than that is with a bona fide sure thing to put fannies in the seats, and that translates to Randy Johnson.

I don't like Jon Garland any more than anyone else on this board, but he is needed to be the 5th starter. I think even Kenny knows this.

wdelaney72
12-09-2004, 07:02 PM
The Sox should definately not include Garland unless they get more back than Vazquez. I wouldn't give up Garland to get Hillenbrand back. The original NY offer was for $10M. You could sign Clement for that, but I have lots of reservations about Clement. I think I'd rather play it safe and keep Garland.
No. 2, I usually agree with you, but come on. Matt Clement is considerably better than Garland.

Joe Crede is playing 3rd bass next year. He's not going anywhere.

I want Mags back
12-09-2004, 07:59 PM
Trade Konerko if possible.

Could Everett or Lee play first?

That would free up space for both Everett and Dye to play everyday even after Frank comes back.

Keep the pitching.
YOU CALLIN "JUDY" AS MAC JURKO AND HARRY CALL HIM PITCHING

KEEP PAULY

LEE CAN'T PLAY HIS OWN POSSITION, I DONT TRUST HIM AT 1ST

EVERETT IS A POSSIBLITY

spanishwhite
12-09-2004, 08:20 PM
If you are are serious about Dustin Hermanson pitching the second half of the year as a starter, you're high.

Folks, this is a no brainer. We CANNOT send Jon Garland away without another starting pitcher. We cannot, repeat CANNOT go another year with a giant ?? as the 5th starter.

The payroll with Hermanson and Dye is at roughly $69 million. Add Vazquez or RJ or Tim hudson - Paulie's salary and we're still going to be close to $75 million. The ONLY way Uncle Jerry would consider going more than that is with a bona fide sure thing to put fannies in the seats, and that translates to Randy Johnson.

I don't like Jon Garland any more than anyone else on this board, but he is needed to be the 5th starter. I think even Kenny knows this.
Dustin Hermanson? No

Brandon MacCarthy? Yes. If you look at the past w.s. champs, they integrated rookies and 2 year pitchers. I think BMac would be a good addition in the second half of the season.

We CAN trade Jon Garland if it is going to upgrade the rotation. Vazquez is a potential number 2, Garland is a potential number 4... at best.

If anything resign Loaiza to a 1 million dollar contract if that and he can be the number 5 pitcher for the first half, due to his great april starts, then give the spot to BMac.

A. Cavatica
12-09-2004, 08:31 PM
If anything resign Loaiza to a 1 million dollar contract if that and he can be the number 5 pitcher for the first half, due to his great april starts, then give the spot to BMac.
Everett twice. Alomar twice. Now Loaiza twice?

Actually, I like that last idea. He'd be better than Grilli, with a chance of being WAY better than Grilli, and he'd be dirt cheap.

Plus he can regrow his facial hair.

c4birdiemaker
12-09-2004, 08:43 PM
I don't understand this whole "Dump Paulie" syndrome that seemingly everyone on this board is suffering from. You'd rather have Garland than Paulie? C'mon now.i couldn't agree more...these people have been sayin anti paulie crap for a couple of months. check out some of my other posts

spanishwhite
12-09-2004, 08:50 PM
Everett twice. Alomar twice. Now Loaiza twice?

Actually, I like that last idea. He'd be better than Grilli, with a chance of being WAY better than Grilli, and he'd be dirt cheap.

Plus he can regrow his facial hair.
And, actually I think he'll have a rebound year next year where ever he goes.

His velocity was up in the playoffs and I dont think its a coincidence that when his velocity went up he shut down the Sox in the playoffs.

Or I should say his velocity was back where it was in 2003.

He did look creepy without his facial hair, almost like a serial killer or something.

southsider17
12-09-2004, 09:02 PM
No. 2, I usually agree with you, but come on. Matt Clement is considerably better than Garland.

Joe Crede is playing 3rd bass next year. He's not going anywhere.
Clement is very inconsistent. Garland is steadily slightly above average. Granted when Clement is on he's one of the best in baseball but that doesn't happen too often.

Look at the career numbers and consider that Clement is in the NL and Garland the AL. I'll give you that Clement is slightly better, but that's it. Plus Clement is as good as he's going to get. Garland still could have an upside.

Kuzman
12-09-2004, 09:19 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vazquja01.shtml

whys everyone getting so excited for his mediocrity?

Wealz
12-09-2004, 09:34 PM
If you are are serious about Dustin Hermanson pitching the second half of the year as a starter, you're high.

Folks, this is a no brainer. We CANNOT send Jon Garland away without another starting pitcher. We cannot, repeat CANNOT go another year with a giant ?? as the 5th starter.

The payroll with Hermanson and Dye is at roughly $69 million. Add Vazquez or RJ or Tim hudson - Paulie's salary and we're still going to be close to $75 million. The ONLY way Uncle Jerry would consider going more than that is with a bona fide sure thing to put fannies in the seats, and that translates to Randy Johnson.

I don't like Jon Garland any more than anyone else on this board, but he is needed to be the 5th starter. I think even Kenny knows this.
If Garland's the 5th starter, what's that make Contreras?

Shingotime!!
12-09-2004, 09:53 PM
whys everyone getting so excited for his mediocrity?
He can hit better that Borchard

Foulke29
12-09-2004, 09:59 PM
:tomatoaward

idseer
12-09-2004, 10:23 PM
unbelievable how outragious some of these ideas thrown around here have gotten.


anyway .... you have overrated vazquez, underrated konerko, overrated gload, and underrated garland. you are all so tired of this team you'll do almost anything just for the sake of change. when the sox have a lot of pitching ... and they lose, you want bats. when they hit like crazy but come up short on pitching you want to give away your bats for pitchers. you refuse to see what lip and others have tried to say for a long time now. you cannot put together a championship club without spending a lot more money. anything else you do is just robbing peter to pay paul. odds are gload will NOT replace paul. not even close. adding vasquez will NOT make this the best staff in the league. and neither of these proposed moves helps in the other 3 areas we need MAJOR help!
get ready for another 2004 sox fans. whether paul is traded or not.

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 10:49 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1943079

What no one can figure out is where the Diamondbacks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=ari), who have begged MLB to forgive their $80 million debt and owe $55 million in deferrals this season because they never funded the deferred contracts, are getting the cash. Russ Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5954) is getting done at close to $34 million for four years, as is Royce Clayton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4800). And the solution White Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=cha) GM Ken Williams figured out -- Javier Vazquez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5947) to Chicago, Paul Konerko (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5908) and Jon Garland (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6396) to Arizona, Randy Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4288) to New York -- has apparently fallen apart, because Williams has yet to hear back.
Keep at it Kenny!:gulp:

nitetrain8601
12-09-2004, 11:10 PM
I think the Diamondbacks just want too damn much for Randy Johnson. I think they're the one's holding up the deals. I also hope that the White Sox get someone else in that deal as well if they're ready to trade both.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 11:12 PM
I think the Diamondbacks just want too damn much for Randy Johnson. I think they're the one's holding up the deals. I also hope that the White Sox get someone else in that deal as well if they're ready to trade both.Agreed. I wouldn't mind getting Tom Gordon back. :wink:

southsideirish71
12-09-2004, 11:26 PM
For all of the people wanting to keep Konerko its a loose loose situation.

Say we keep him and he has one of his Jeckle and Hyde seasons. Starts out cold/hot and ends hot/cold. Then we have no value to trade for and we are signing a body that isnt consistant the year through.

If he has a monster year and we go in the crapper and we trade him at the deadline. You never get the full monty for a rental for a few months. Unless its KW trading for alomar.

If he has a monster year. Hits 285 290 with 35 to 40 homers and a 100 RBIs how much do you think he will fetch on the FA market next year. Easily over 10 mill. Look at the Glaus contract. If Konerko puts two years up of great numbers forget signing him or giving him arbitration.

Trade him now while we have the greatest value for him. Get something for him that can help the team. I like having Paulie on the team, but until JR jacks the old payroll up we need to act like the royals and trade our talent away when they start to get to the moola department.

Jabroni
12-09-2004, 11:33 PM
For all of the people wanting to keep Konerko its a loose loose situation.

Say we keep him and he has one of his Jeckle and Hyde seasons. Starts out cold/hot and ends hot/cold. Then we have no value to trade for and we are signing a body that isnt consistant the year through.

If he has a monster year and we go in the crapper and we trade him at the deadline. You never get the full monty for a rental for a few months. Unless its KW trading for alomar.

If he has a monster year. Hits 285 290 with 35 to 40 homers and a 100 RBIs how much do you think he will fetch on the FA market next year. Easily over 10 mill. Look at the Glaus contract. If Konerko puts two years up of great numbers forget signing him or giving him arbitration.

Trade him now while we have the greatest value for him. Get something for him that can help the team. I like having Paulie on the team, but until JR jacks the old payroll up we need to act like the royals and trade our talent away when they start to get to the moola department.Excellent post. :thumbsup:

If Konerko has another awesome season next year, he will be out of our price range. If he sucks next year, we won't want him back anyways. I hate to say it but now is the time to trade Paulie. His trade value will never be any higher. Regardless, I don't think KW/JR would re-sign Paulie after next season anyways so why not trade him? Too many posters here think with their hearts instead of their minds. I love Paulie as much as the next Sox fan but I realize he would help us the most in a trade for a starting pitcher. In summary...


1.) Fans think with their hearts...

:fans
"Let's keep Paulie!"


2.) Kenny Williams thinks with his mind...

:KW
"Konerko's trade value is at an all-time high."


3.) Uncle Jerry thinks with his pocketbook...

:reinsy
"You can never have enough pitching, so why bother?"

bc2k
12-10-2004, 12:12 AM
Ok, how about this scenario...?

Diamondbacks get...
Paul Konerko
John Garland

Yankmes get...
Randy Johnson

White Sox get...
Javier Vazquez from NYY
Shea Hillenbrand from AZ

Then, Beltre leaves LA for greener pastures. Then, send Crede to LA for Shawn Green who then plays 1B. What do you think?
Yes, I'm all for that scenario. I don't think it's too unrealistic either.

pudge
12-10-2004, 12:18 AM
Did anyone see Vasquez in the playoffs? I'm all for a strong rotation but I think Vasquez is a tad overrated.
Remember, Kenny didn't watch the playoffs because he was too "bitter".

pudge
12-10-2004, 12:22 AM
I will bet you a pair of tickets to a Bears game in the 2005 season that Konerko doesnt hit 40 homeruns again. The guy is at the peak of his value and to trade him wouldnt be a bad move. Keeping him on isnt a bad move either, but dont expect last year's numbers. .285, 30, 95 is more realistic.
I wouldn't bet the farm, because US Cell has become a bandbox. Hell Dye may hit 40 it he stays healthy.

Jjav829
12-10-2004, 01:25 AM
FWIW, Bruce Levine was on Chicago Tribune Live and he said that this deal probably won't happen with Konerko now because of the D-backs signing Glaus. He didn't rule it out but said that it would have to be with Garland and other prospects.

It doesn't seem too likely now, though I suppose that could change by tomorrow.

Jabroni
12-10-2004, 01:27 AM
FWIW, Bruce Levine was on Chicago Tribune Live and he said that this deal probably won't happen with Konerko now because of the D-backs signing Glaus. He didn't rule it out but said that it would have to be with Garland and other prospects.

It doesn't seem too likely now, though I suppose that could change by tomorrow.Great! I wonder if the D-backs will now take Garland and Borchard instead. :D: Afterall, Borchard is still a top prospect.

gosox41
12-10-2004, 08:07 AM
There's no way I can see that happening unless the White Sox got more players or a ton of money. Kenny isn't that stupid.
I don't like that trade idea at all either as it creates more holes. It's one thing to consider Garland and PK for RJ. But Vazquez is no RJ last I checked. The Sox will still need a fifth starter.


Bob

smokeyburgess
12-10-2004, 08:15 AM
PK the man knows how to hit into a double play better than anyone who ever played for the Sox.

southsider17
12-10-2004, 08:33 AM
For all of the people wanting to keep Konerko its a loose loose situation.


You mean "lose lose".

Whitesox029
12-10-2004, 10:21 PM
From a long-term standpoint, it makes a great deal more sense to trade Garland, even though he is younger. Konerko has proven that he can produce big numbers (40 HR-120 RBI for those of you who will try to dispute me). Garland has yet to string 5 or so good outings in a row and if I recall correctly, he was bashing his teammates' defense when it was his own fault he was sucking. As I remember, Konerko was the one standing up for the rest of the team. RJ is old, remember. He won't last long, so we want to make sure we're giving up something that probably won't last long in return (If the yanks did this I might even hate them a little bit less...I already hate the Red Sox more).

nitetrain8601
12-10-2004, 10:25 PM
From a long-term standpoint, it makes a great deal more sense to trade Garland, even though he is younger. Konerko has proven that he can produce big numbers (40 HR-120 RBI for those of you who will try to dispute me). Garland has yet to string 5 or so good outings in a row and if I recall correctly, he was bashing his teammates' defense when it was his own fault he was sucking. As I remember, Konerko was the one standing up for the rest of the team. RJ is old, remember. He won't last long, so we want to make sure we're giving up something that probably won't last long in return (If the yanks did this I might even hate them a little bit less...I already hate the Red Sox more).
Someone brought up the good point though that it's lose-lose with PK. If he has another year like last year, he doesn't get resigned because he'll play himself right out of a White Sox uni, if he sucks, there's no point in keeping him on this team for the money he'll get. Garland however gives us a 5th starter if we trade PK for a stud pitcher. This is what I would do:

Trade C. Lee + Diaz or Honel (and hopefully Borchard) for Tim Hudson

Trade PK for Vazquez and money

That leaves you with an extra starter. Trade Jon Garland for a leadoff hitter. Any leadoff hitter.

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 10:33 PM
From a long-term standpoint, it makes a great deal more sense to trade Garland, even though he is younger. Konerko has proven that he can produce big numbers (40 HR-120 RBI for those of you who will try to dispute me). Konerko has hit the 40 HR mark exactly one time in his 6 years as a full time player and the 120 RBI mark zero times (it was 117 last year and he's only broken 100 once more in 2002 with 104)


Garland has yet to string 5 or so good outings in a row I seem to remember that in 2003, he had a really long string of about 18 games or so where he pitched at least 6 innings and gave up 4 ER or less in every one of those games. Not dominating, but he kept us in 18 straight games, which is more than most pitchers can say.


RJ is old, remember. He won't last long, so we want to make sure we're giving up something that probably won't last long in return (If the yanks did this I might even hate them a little bit less...I already hate the Red Sox more).
We're not in the hunt for RJ.

Whitesox029
12-10-2004, 11:24 PM
Konerko has hit the 40 HR mark exactly one time in his 6 years as a full time player and the 120 RBI mark zero times (it was 117 last year and he's only broken 100 once more in 2002 with 104)
You're right. There's no point in keeping a player who's going to produce if, God forbid, we should have to increase his pay a little bit and make him feel like he's wanted here (and everyone knows you can get a 40 HR 1st baseman for $10 mil or less any day of the week.)

nitetrain8601
12-10-2004, 11:27 PM
You're right. There's no point in keeping a player who's going to produce if, God forbid, we should have to increase his pay a little bit and make him feel like he's wanted here (and everyone knows you can get a 40 HR 1st baseman for $10 mil or less any day of the week.)
Again, if he produces like he did last year(btw, he only hit 40 HR's once IIRC in his career, so don't make it out to be him being a consistent 40 HR guy) then he will be 12-14 million a year. That's not a small increase buddy.

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 11:57 PM
You're right. There's no point in keeping a player who's going to produce if, God forbid, we should have to increase his pay a little bit and make him feel like he's wanted here (and everyone knows you can get a 40 HR 1st baseman for $10 mil or less any day of the week.)
No, you're right. It makes little sense to trade a player who cant hit for crap on the road, who holds a lot of trade value, could possibly net us Javy Vazquez and who is essentially coming from a position of strength..

Jabroni
12-11-2004, 12:02 AM
Konerko for Vazquez straight-up would be a good trade, except for Vazquez' big contract. If the Yankees actually threw in some cash, it would be a great trade. A good starting pitchers is worth alot more to a team than a 40+ homer hitting first baseman that can't hit on the road.

gosox41
12-11-2004, 09:15 AM
Trade C. Lee + Diaz or Honel (and hopefully Borchard) for Tim Hudson

.


I don't think Beane is dumb enought o take on Joe Borchard, but stranger things have happened.



Bob

Flight #24
12-11-2004, 09:42 AM
By the way - haven't seen much comment on the potential for the Vazquez deal to be Lee+prospects instead of Konerko+garland+prospects. I love Carlos, but I'd rather do that deal for Vazquez+cash simply because we'd have our 5 starters locked up, and with the $$$ coming back, we could go get an OF who might not be Carlos, but could be good.

Carlos+prospects for Vazquez+$15mil (RJ to Yankees), then turn around and sign JD Drew to 5-yr/$50mil.

Payroll is at $75mil and you have a serious playoff contender. Heck for that, I might even include Anderson. But only if you're going to be able to get a Drew.

MRKARNO
12-11-2004, 10:40 AM
By the way - haven't seen much comment on the potential for the Vazquez deal to be Lee+prospects instead of Konerko+garland+prospects. I love Carlos, but I'd rather do that deal for Vazquez+cash simply because we'd have our 5 starters locked up, and with the $$$ coming back, we could go get an OF who might not be Carlos, but could be good.

Carlos+prospects for Vazquez+$15mil (RJ to Yankees), then turn around and sign JD Drew to 5-yr/$50mil.

Payroll is at $75mil and you have a serious playoff contender. Heck for that, I might even include Anderson. But only if you're going to be able to get a Drew.
If we could keep Garland, it is preferable that we do. Lee's value to the team aint that much more than Konerko's in my mind, though I like him a lot more due to his better all-around ability. I think the Yanks might even pay some of Vazquez's contract without having to give up prospects because they want to unload it to have flexibility for Milton, Pavano and Beltran.

S.S. Lumber Yard
12-11-2004, 10:51 AM
Kenny Williams has that strong belief that the Yankees scouted the right talents (Contreras and Vazquez), it's just they couldn't produce under the Yankee spotlight. And, I think I'm with him on that one. Vazquez was ideal in Montreal. Getting out of New York will help him, by how much is anyone's guess.

Who would be our 5th starter

Mark Niiiiice
Freddy Fo' Sho
Jose He gots da heat
Javier He's got the movement
?

SoxxoS
12-11-2004, 11:14 AM
Kenny Williams has that strong belief that the Yankees scouted the right talents (Contreras and Vazquez), it's just they couldn't produce under the Yankee spotlight. And, I think I'm with him on that one. Vazquez was ideal in Montreal. Getting out of New York will help him, by how much is anyone's guess.

Who would be our 5th starter

Mark Niiiiice
Freddy Fo' Sho
Jose He gots da heat
Javier He's got the movement
?
Not being able to "pitch in New York" is a nice way of saying "can't pitch under pressure" which is not a good thing for winning a World Series.

bafiarocks03
12-11-2004, 12:14 PM
That is funny!, There is now way we are trading Paul or Jon! It just isn't going to happen!! OK we've already lost Maggs, and Jose! and signed this Dye, who isn't the best, when we should be working on getting a starter! like for instance Hudson! but that's just me! BUt im' not gonna let them take paul or jon!

Shingotime!!
12-11-2004, 05:40 PM
Im not sure if this was all ready posted but can someone explain to me how we trade Paulie and Garland to the yanks and get a guy like Vazquez. And the yanks turn around and get a guy like Johnson. Look at it from the yankees perspective, basically they are trading Vazquez for Johnson. Dosnt sound very fair to me. Is it a money issue or something?

Jabroni
12-11-2004, 05:42 PM
That is funny!, There is now way we are trading Paul or Jon! It just isn't going to happen!! OK we've already lost Maggs, and Jose! and signed this Dye, who isn't the best, when we should be working on getting a starter! like for instance Hudson! but that's just me! BUt im' not gonna let them take paul or jon!You probably wouldn't even give up Willie Harris for Hudson. :tongue: Well, it takes talent to get talent.

Jabroni
12-11-2004, 05:43 PM
Im not sure if this was all ready posted but can someone explain to me how we trade Paulie and Garland to the yanks and get a guy like Vazquez. And the yanks turn around and get a guy like Johnson. Look at it from the yankees perspective, basically they are trading Vazquez for Johnson. Dosnt sound very fair to me. Is it a money issue or something?Yes, the Yankees would probably send us money to help pay for Vazquez' contract which would free up some salary for KW to spend.

Shingotime!!
12-11-2004, 05:59 PM
Vazquez seems alot like Freddie in that he dominates in the day and sucks at night. We have to reconfigure our schedual. Vazquez (Day: 3.03 Night: 5.71)