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JRIG
12-09-2004, 07:12 AM
Jason Grilli is our savior (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox09.html):



With the high prices that free-agent starters are commanding, Williams seems to be leaning toward in-house candidates such as Jason Grilli and the arbitration-eligible Scott Schoeneweis to fill the No. 5 spot in the rotation behind Freddy Garcia, Mark Buehrle, Jose Contreras and Jon Garland.

''We're going into the fifth spot in a little different position this year,'' Williams said. ''We have confidence Jason Grilli can give us more than we've gotten in that spot in the last few years.''
:KW
"Plus, he's a grinder!"


To refresh your memory, Grilli had a 7.40 ERA in 45 innings last year, with 20 BB and 26 K.

Mohoney
12-09-2004, 07:25 AM
Jason Grilli is our savior (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox09.html):



Plus, he's a grinder.
:chunks


We are NEVER going to win anything with a rotation that includes Jon Garland. NEVER. The sooner Kenny realizes this, the better off we're all going to be. We need a 40% new rotation next year, and we need the names Grilli and Garland expunged from consideration.

Make a damn Garland trade already (hopefully this Vazquez thing picks up steam at the Winter Meetings, or we can peddle Garland to the Orioles for one of those 2B that we can put at the top of the order) and sign a free agent(s) to round things out and push Contreras to #5. If you have to trade a bat to come up with the money, fine. Just get Garland out of my life, and send Adkins with him.

I have nothing against keeping Grilli as a long reliever, but if he's a starter next year, we're doomed.

munchman33
12-09-2004, 07:27 AM
This must be plan "S"

The "S" is for Suck.

Mohoney
12-09-2004, 07:31 AM
This was the most sickening part:

''We assured ourselves we wouldn't be in a position of absolute need where you are almost held hostage to do something you're not comfortable doing.''
If Kenny is under the delusion that we're NOT in a position of "absolute need", then I question the man's sanity.

I hope to God he's sandbagging us.

JRIG
12-09-2004, 07:38 AM
We are NEVER going to win anything with a rotation that includes Jon Garland. NEVER. The sooner Kenny realizes this, the better off we're all going to be. We need a 40% new rotation next year, and we need the names Grilli and Garland expunged from consideration.

Make a damn Garland trade already (hopefully this Vazquez thing picks up steam at the Winter Meetings, or we can peddle Garland to the Orioles for one of those 2B that we can put at the top of the order) and sign a free agent(s) to round things out and push Contreras to #5. If you have to trade a bat to come up with the money, fine. Just get Garland out of my life, and send Adkins with him.

I have nothing against keeping Grilli as a long reliever, but if he's a starter next year, we're doomed.
Garland is a reliable, completely average starter. Many teams would be very happy to have him in the rotation. He's not the problem. As a number 4 or 5 guy he's fine.

However, I have little to no confidence in Jose Contreras, and Grilli is awful. Having 2/5 of the rotation worse than average is not a winning formula.

fquaye149
12-09-2004, 07:43 AM
what the **** do you want him to say? there's about 3 serviceable starting pitchers on the market? There's about 9-10 teams all bidding for them making it likely we won't get one? That we're desperate for starting pitching?

If he said that, what would you say?

It's called leverage. Doesn't mean it is working or it is the right move, but i DOUBT if given the choice KW would take Grilli over a serviceable starter.

SOXSINCE'70
12-09-2004, 08:11 AM
"Plus, he's a grinder!"

The only grinding is in the pit of my stomach if
KW thinks Grilli is the answer to the # 5 starter.
:cower: :cower:

OEO Magglio
12-09-2004, 08:22 AM
We'll get a starting pitcher one way or another. So many different things have been said by kenny it's really hard to gauge when he's telling the truth or not, I'm pretty confident we'll bring in another starter, atleast I hope so.

Soxzilla
12-09-2004, 08:22 AM
I've only been up for 30 mins. today, and I can already tell this day sucks.

What the hell Kenny ... WHAT THE HELL.

doublem23
12-09-2004, 08:24 AM
I've only been up for 30 mins. today, and I can already tell this day sucks.

What the hell Kenny ... WHAT THE HELL.
You're blaming the wrong guy.

:reinsy
He may not be the best, but Jason Grilli sure gets paid like a #5 starter in my book.

Bobby Thigpen
12-09-2004, 08:35 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm insane, but a rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Schoenweiss doesn't really sound that bad. I hate Schoenweiss, but he is much improved over every 5th starter we had last year and Contreras may surprise some people this year if the Sox can get it through his thick head to throw anything other than his splitter. I think Johnny G will be improved and the top 2 I have no problem with at the current time. I think everyone is overlooking Schoenweiss in this whole situation.

OEO Magglio
12-09-2004, 08:38 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm insane, but a rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Schoenweiss doesn't really sound that bad. I hate Schoenweiss, but he is much improved over every 5th starter we had last year and Contreras may surprise some people this year if the Sox can get it through his thick head to throw anything other than his splitter. I think Johnny G will be improved and the top 2 I have no problem with at the current time. I think everyone is overlooking Schoenweiss in this whole situation.
It's not as bad as everyone claims it to be and it's still the best rotation in the division, however if we could sign a legitimate number 3 starter that makes our rotation and our ballclub much improved. I'd love to keep shoney as a reliever and a so called 6th starter so if anyone got injured he'd be a solid fill in. I doubt shoney would want to do that but it would be nice to keep him around if that were the case.

JRIG
12-09-2004, 08:41 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm insane, but a rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Schoenweiss doesn't really sound that bad. I hate Schoenweiss, but he is much improved over every 5th starter we had last year and Contreras may surprise some people this year if the Sox can get it through his thick head to throw anything other than his splitter. I think Johnny G will be improved and the top 2 I have no problem with at the current time. I think everyone is overlooking Schoenweiss in this whole situation.
Schoenweis was the fifth starter last year, wasn't he? At the beginning of the season it was Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Wright, and Schoney.

Either way, he's been horrible as a starter throughout his career and has been barely adequate in the bullpen. Sorta like the left-handed Dustin Hermanson.

Bobby Thigpen
12-09-2004, 08:43 AM
I would agree that it still could use an improvement. A solid three or four would be great. I'm just saying that I'm not as worried about the rotation going into next year as I have been in the past. I don't think it's as doomsday as everyone thinks it is.

Bobby Thigpen
12-09-2004, 08:45 AM
No actually Schoenweiss was the fourth starter after the Wright fiasco and actually pitched very well for about five innings many times. That's really all you need out of your fifth starter, especially when they only pitch about once every two weeks once the season starts.

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 08:51 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm insane, but a rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Schoenweiss doesn't really sound that bad. I hate Schoenweiss, but he is much improved over every 5th starter we had last year and Contreras may surprise some people this year if the Sox can get it through his thick head to throw anything other than his splitter. I think Johnny G will be improved and the top 2 I have no problem with at the current time. I think everyone is overlooking Schoenweiss in this whole situation.
Sorry, you're insane. :smile:

That rotation sounds awful. There's only two guys in that rotation that are close to sure things to post ERAs around 4 and win near 15 games. Everyone else is a complete gamble. I think we're all overlooking Schoeneweis because we hope he's a bum who shouldn't be in the starting rotation for a contender.

gosox41
12-09-2004, 08:55 AM
Jason Grilli is our savior (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox09.html):


:KW
"Plus, he's a grinder!"


To refresh your memory, Grilli had a 7.40 ERA in 45 innings last year, with 20 BB and 26 K.
If KW truly believes this and doesn't do anything to bring in a good proven starter, then he is dumber then I ever imagined.

Maybe that will wake up the FOKW. Probably not.



Bob

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 09:00 AM
It's not as bad as everyone claims it to be and it's still the best rotation in the division, however if we could sign a legitimate number 3 starter that makes our rotation and our ballclub much improved. I'd love to keep shoney as a reliever and a so called 6th starter so if anyone got injured he'd be a solid fill in. I doubt shoney would want to do that but it would be nice to keep him around if that were the case.
I'm not sure that's the best rotation in the division. Especially if Cleveland signs Clement. Sabathia, Clement, Lee, Westbrook, Elarton is better. Santana, Radke, Silva is better than our top 3. Lohse hasn't been too good, but depending on what the Twins do with the last rotation spot, their rotation will probably be better. Depending on what the Tigers do to bring in a starting pitcher, their rotation could be decent.

Let's face it. We NEED another good starting pitcher. Jason Grilli is not going to cut it. If Grilli is our 5th starter next season, we're screwed before the season begins. It's not even so much that Grilli would be our 5th starter, it's that we have to rely more on Contreras and Garland. For that matter, I hate the idea of looking for a #5 guy. Get the best damn pitcher you can get. Don't look for a guy who is worse than your first 4 pitchers, look for the best pitcher you can get. Find the 5 best pitchers you can and go to battle with them.

Jjav829
12-09-2004, 09:05 AM
If KW truly believes this and doesn't do anything to bring in a good proven starter, then he is dumber then I ever imagined.

Maybe that will wake up the FOKW. Probably not.



Bob
I don't consider myself a FOKW. I've stated before that I think KW has done a good job in some of his moves. But this offseason is put up or shut up time in my mind. If Kenny doesn't assemble a playoff team this winter, I'll be leaning toward getting rid of him. And deciding to go with Jason Grilli as your #5 starter is a serious indictment on Kenny Williams. It's akin to Jerry Angelo decided to go with Jonathan Quinn. Regardless of the other good moves by Angelo, going with Quinn as the backup QB was a horrible move, though it won't overshadow the other great moves he's made. Kenny is a little different. He hasn't put together a great nucleus like Angelo has. He's put together a solid base, but there's still a ways to go. Going with Jason Grilli as the #5 starter reflects much more poorly on KW because he hasn't done as much with this team as Angelo has with the Bears.

gosox41
12-09-2004, 09:09 AM
I don't consider myself a FOKW. I've stated before that I think KW has done a good job in some of his moves. But this offseason is put up or shut up time in my mind. If Kenny doesn't assemble a playoff team this winter, I'll be leaning toward getting rid of him. And deciding to go with Jason Grilli as your #5 starter is a serious indictment on Kenny Williams. It's akin to Jerry Angelo decided to go with Jonathan Quinn. Regardless of the other good moves by Angelo, going with Quinn as the backup QB was a horrible move, though it won't overshadow the other great moves he's made. Kenny is a little different. He hasn't put together a great nucleus like Angelo has. He's put together a solid base, but there's still a ways to go. Going with Jason Grilli as the #5 starter reflects much more poorly on KW because he hasn't done as much with this team as Angelo has with the Bears.
I agree about this being KW's last shot in my mind to get it right. I try to keep my posts about KW to a minimum but sometimes it's to easy.:D:

Seriously, the Sox raising payroll. The Sox are finally out of some of the bad contracts that KW put them in. So he has money to work with. And after 4 years he damn well better know what holes need to be filled. We've known since 2001 this team needed 5 good starters. We've known since 2001 about slow footed right handed power hitters who slump for long periods of time. KW has yet to figure it out.


Bob

CarlosMay'sThumb
12-09-2004, 09:20 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm insane, but a rotation of Garcia, Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, and Schoenweiss doesn't really sound that bad.
Well, I know. You're insane. :tongue:

That is a terrible pitching rotation. Garland is not a number 3. Didn't we learn anything last year? Contreras is a 40 year old (?) bust waiting to happen. Schoenweiss is done. Garcia is a number 3 on most decent rotations who Kenny way overpaid for. OK, Buerhle is good.

Mickster
12-09-2004, 09:28 AM
Garcia is a number 3 on most decent rotations who Kenny way overpaid for.
Are we going to go over this again? Please, take off the anti-KW blinders that adorn your head and look at the stats. Better yet, please name 60 pitchers that are better than Garcia..... And Kenny overpaid for him? What is Benson making? Percival? Lieber?

Sheesh. :kukoo:

nccwsfan
12-09-2004, 09:35 AM
#1 Buehrle
#2 Garcia
#3 Contreras
#4 _____________
#5 Garland

Anything less than a starter who can be a #4 or higher is unacceptable given the team's fortunes over the past two seasons. Grilli/Scho/anyone in Charlotte is not the answer......Garland is not a #4 but would make a good #5.

KW- get us a starter!

Dick Allen
12-09-2004, 09:45 AM
Kenny better be sandbagging here. If not, I don't appreciate having my intelligence insulted as if I were a Cub fan.

MRKARNO
12-09-2004, 10:30 AM
KW is just preparing us in case he doesnt, but I'm sure he's working furiously to fill the 5th spot. He's seen the 5th starter problem first hand and I'm sure he hates the fact that it's such a big problem.

munchman33
12-09-2004, 10:38 AM
I hope we get Javy Vazquez. He could dominate in the A.L. Central.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 11:01 AM
I recall someone on these boards predicitng a few days ago that Williams would say something like this. Personally I found Williams comment about the higher salaries being given to pitchers 'very concerning' (Sun-Times) to be more revealing.

PHG as usual was right on the money talking about salaries. And he was also right about the fact that the Sox simply refused to understand this concept.

Lip

longshot7
12-09-2004, 01:32 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041208soxhermanson,0,2213702.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

In this article about the Hermanson signing, KW talks about his prospects for a 5th starter, and it doesn't seem like a trade is on the way. It looks like Grilli or Schoenweis. Hooray!

1917
12-09-2004, 01:35 PM
That don't mean squat!

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 01:43 PM
That don't mean squat!Agreed. What would you expect him to say? "Grilli sucks and we're DESPERATE for a fifth starter." ?? That will certainly help their negotiating position, hey? Read between the lines.

GiveMeSox
12-09-2004, 01:50 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041208soxhermanson,0,2213702.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

In this article about the Hermanson signing, KW talks about his prospects for a 5th starter, and it doesn't seem like a trade is on the way. It looks like Grilli or Schoenweis. Hooray!
Lets hope it means we are trying to raise his trade value. Id love to see him or diaz or honel go as a part of a deal to bring in a sold 3 or 4 starter.

Tekijawa
12-09-2004, 01:53 PM
Lets hope it means we are trying to raise his trade value. Id love to see him or diaz or honel go as a part of a deal to bring in a sold 3 or 4 starter.
Hermanson wouldn't be able to be traded until mid May. I think the Signing of Dye should signal that one of our firstbasemen/DH's will be leaving or one of our OF/DH's will be leaving...

longshot7
12-09-2004, 01:59 PM
Lets hope it means we are trying to raise his trade value. Id love to see him or diaz or honel go as a part of a deal to bring in a sold 3 or 4 starter.
I hope you're right.

eriqjaffe
12-09-2004, 02:26 PM
Depending on which Schoenweis we get, he might not be that terrible. Especially if we get the April/May version.

wdelaney72
12-09-2004, 02:35 PM
Garcia is a number 3 on most decent rotations who Kenny way overpaid for.:bong:

munchman33
12-09-2004, 02:42 PM
:bong:
Exactly. Even if I agreed Garcia is a three, which all statistical evidence is against, his deal is still under market considering recent market trends.