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guillen4life13
12-08-2004, 10:57 PM
At this point, I have been so discouraged by the way the Sox have run things over the last few years, and I think that a drastic change of strategy is in order.

I think that they should just own up to the unlikelyhood of there being a World Series on the South Side. So what am I saying?

Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. Let's be honest: by the way things look, no marquee players (or otherwise) want to come to Chicago. JR isn't going to sell anytime soon, nor is he going to put out a huge investment into the team (increase the payroll to an adequate amount given the market the Sox have). Start anew, and this time, don't do it half-assed. Cleveland is going to contend for the division next year because of in-grown talent (Gerut, Sabathia, etc.). The Sox are going to fail next year, no matter what course they take. Unfortunately, over the last several years, a pattern has been emerging: trade for one or two marquee players in an offseason (while compromising the farm, might I add), and have a mediocre subsequent season.

I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.

chisoxmike
12-08-2004, 10:59 PM
I think thats a little extreme for right now.

guillen4life13
12-08-2004, 11:01 PM
I think thats a little extreme for right now.
I thought that for the last three years. I'm fed up with it now, and I have lost optimism in this cycle.

dugwood31
12-08-2004, 11:02 PM
I see the logic, but dismantling a team that's been .500 or better for 5 years and probably will be next year is a bit drastic.

FightingBillini
12-08-2004, 11:11 PM
Im not optomistic about this coming season either, but I dont think things will be as bleak as you seem to think. As for the rebuilding thing, Im not in favor of it. While we are still mediocre, we are a lot closer to being a serious contender than to being the 2002 Indians. They "broke it up" becuase they lost all their talent, we still have ours.

This single biggest reason we cant rebuild is that our scouts arent good enough. If they were go that route, they would need to entirely retool the scouts (which they should probably do anyway). No, they arent the worst ever, but they havent produced major league level talent as the same rate as Minnesota, Oakland, or Montreal (until recently). Either the scouts all suck or the minor league coaches suck at developing the players. Either way, the problem would need to be addressed before we rest our future on prospects.

dcb33
12-08-2004, 11:24 PM
Although breaking up and rebuilding might be best in the long term if it's done corretly, we are simply not in a position to do so right now.
If you all think we're an afterthought now compared to the Cubs, just imagine how bad it would be if the Sox decided to put a 65 win team on the field hoping that 3 to 4 years down the line things will come togehter. We would be completely buried by the Cubs, and for whatever reason I don't think "Through Thick and Thin" billboards would work for the Sox when there's another team in town willing to spend the money to sign the talent necessary to win.
Unfortunately, the only way out now for the Sox is to make bold moves and open their pocketbooks to win, which we all know isn't going to happen... so I'm pretty much resigned to seeing our 80-85 win mediocrity continue.

Foulke You
12-08-2004, 11:26 PM
At this point, I have been so discouraged by the way the Sox have run things over the last few years, and I think that a drastic change of strategy is in order.

I think that they should just own up to the unlikelyhood of there being a World Series on the South Side. So what am I saying?

Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. Let's be honest: by the way things look, no marquee players (or otherwise) want to come to Chicago. JR isn't going to sell anytime soon, nor is he going to put out a huge investment into the team (increase the payroll to an adequate amount given the market the Sox have). Start anew, and this time, don't do it half-assed. Cleveland is going to contend for the division next year because of in-grown talent (Gerut, Sabathia, etc.). The Sox are going to fail next year, no matter what course they take. Unfortunately, over the last several years, a pattern has been emerging: trade for one or two marquee players in an offseason (while compromising the farm, might I add), and have a mediocre subsequent season.

I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.
Nonsense. Rebuild? You mean like Reinsdorf's other team, the Bulls did after MJ left? Or perhaps you mean rebuild like the Brewers and Pirates have for the last 5 years? They've won tons of pennants since doing that.

One thing we can all agree on, the Sox have some holes (although one bullpen hole was filled today by the addition of Hermanson) but I honestly believe if the team shores up the rotation with another solid starter, this division is still ripe for the taking. This team largely underacheived in 2003 largely due to the ineptitude of our manager. In 2004, we were leading the division until injuries to Frank and Maggs silenced our offensive output and the injury to Schoeneweis allowed the pitchers in our farm system to suck up the #5 spot in the rotation. You don't just throw in the towel when you've been pretty close the past couple years because you may go from a run of competitiveness to being in the crapper for 5 years as the Pirates and Brewers have. Not to mention, you think the Cubs have a stranglehold on the baseball fans in Chicago now? Imagine what 3 or 4 years straight of 95 losses does to the fanbase!! No thanks. I'll pass.

MUsoxfan
12-08-2004, 11:29 PM
Aren't the Sox an above .500 team for the last several years? Many teams would kill to be that good. There is no need to tear down the team and rebuild when we've been so close to the top. Why should we follow Cleveland's example? They didn't go to the WS last year. In fact, they finished worse than our Sox. Give it up already, a couple SMALL or should I say small moves from being serious contenders. My god, people are gonna start the "Sky is Falling" thread before the season even begins.

MUsoxfan
12-08-2004, 11:35 PM
I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.

The Yankees farm system is well regarded as the best in baseball. Think before you type

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 11:46 PM
:threadsucks:threadsucks:threadsucks


IT'S DECEMBER FOR ****'S SAKE!!!!

Please tell me how well Cleveland's rebuilding has gone. They didn't even have a .500 season last year. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 12:17 AM
At this point, I have been so discouraged by the way the Sox have run things over the last few years, and I think that a drastic change of strategy is in order.

I think that they should just own up to the unlikelyhood of there being a World Series on the South Side. So what am I saying?

Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. Let's be honest: by the way things look, no marquee players (or otherwise) want to come to Chicago. JR isn't going to sell anytime soon, nor is he going to put out a huge investment into the team (increase the payroll to an adequate amount given the market the Sox have). Start anew, and this time, don't do it half-assed. Cleveland is going to contend for the division next year because of in-grown talent (Gerut, Sabathia, etc.). The Sox are going to fail next year, no matter what course they take. Unfortunately, over the last several years, a pattern has been emerging: trade for one or two marquee players in an offseason (while compromising the farm, might I add), and have a mediocre subsequent season.

I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.
Excuse me, but I think I just read that Carl Everett is a Role Model?!?! :rolleyes:

Tragg
12-09-2004, 12:29 AM
Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. .
We don't need to rebuild to become a contender; a few clever trades plus a cople of signees should do it.

Toronto took that route 10 years ago-have they reached .500 yet?

And Cleveland - they haven't done anything either (oh I know, Gammons will pick them to win the Central or be a serious contender for it - you can be assured of that);

And we won't do it anyway even if it were the right thing to do (which I don't think it is) - as someone pointed out a while back, you maximize profit by putting a team out there that is competitive, will win a few more than it loses, but not good enough to do any damage (that costs more money than it returns)

NWSox
12-09-2004, 12:42 AM
The Yankees farm system is well regarded as the best in baseball. Think before you type
There are only a handful of teams that can afford to decimate their farm system, and the White Sox aren't one of them. I'm with g4life, mediocrity ain't cutting it. Call me reckless, but I am willing to risk our stranglehold on second place to improve. A rebuilding strategy will make me more optimistic than signing a bunch of Hermansons.

ChiSoxBobette
12-09-2004, 06:16 AM
At this point, I have been so discouraged by the way the Sox have run things over the last few years, and I think that a drastic change of strategy is in order.

I think that they should just own up to the unlikelyhood of there being a World Series on the South Side. So what am I saying?

Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. Let's be honest: by the way things look, no marquee players (or otherwise) want to come to Chicago. JR isn't going to sell anytime soon, nor is he going to put out a huge investment into the team (increase the payroll to an adequate amount given the market the Sox have). Start anew, and this time, don't do it half-assed. Cleveland is going to contend for the division next year because of in-grown talent (Gerut, Sabathia, etc.). The Sox are going to fail next year, no matter what course they take. Unfortunately, over the last several years, a pattern has been emerging: trade for one or two marquee players in an offseason (while compromising the farm, might I add), and have a mediocre subsequent season.

I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.
The money they're saving by cutting Ordonez, Valentinand the Alomar brothers loose put that into rebuilding thier minor league system, because as this team is structured they're never going to compete for the first tier type of free agents ie Beltran, Beltre, Renteria, Nomar, Pavanno, Martinez, so put that money into developing major league players from your own system which as we've all seen we don't seem to have in our system right now.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 10:11 AM
You mean the same organization that tried to 'rebuild' after the time period from 1981 through 1985?

Or the organization that 'rebuilt' after breaking up the 1993-94 team?

Or how about the organization that 'rebuilt' the club after 2000?

I have no confidence this organization could rebuilt a house let alone rebuild a baseball team.

Lip

southsider17
12-09-2004, 10:43 AM
OK Lip, here's one of your posts that has some flaws.

You mean the same organization that tried to 'rebuild' after the time period from 1981 through 1985?Which got them to the winning teams of the early 90's .....

Or the organization that 'rebuilt' after breaking up the 1993-94 team?Which got them to the 2000 playoff team (which succeeded ahead of schedule) .....

Or how about the organization that 'rebuilt' the club after 2000?They haven't 'rebuilt' after 2000. They've been 'retooling' and now 'milking' what's left of core talent they had in 2000.

I have no confidence this organization could rebuilt a house let alone rebuild a baseball team.

LipI think they've shown they can rebuild. What they can't seem to do is truly commit to go the extra mile ($$$$) to push the Sox from a playoff contender (in a weak division) to a legitimate World Series contender. :angry:

ewokpelts
12-09-2004, 03:33 PM
At this point, I have been so discouraged by the way the Sox have run things over the last few years, and I think that a drastic change of strategy is in order.

I think that they should just own up to the unlikelyhood of there being a World Series on the South Side. So what am I saying?

Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. Let's be honest: by the way things look, no marquee players (or otherwise) want to come to Chicago. JR isn't going to sell anytime soon, nor is he going to put out a huge investment into the team (increase the payroll to an adequate amount given the market the Sox have). Start anew, and this time, don't do it half-assed. Cleveland is going to contend for the division next year because of in-grown talent (Gerut, Sabathia, etc.). The Sox are going to fail next year, no matter what course they take. Unfortunately, over the last several years, a pattern has been emerging: trade for one or two marquee players in an offseason (while compromising the farm, might I add), and have a mediocre subsequent season.

I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.we did that...it was the "kids can play" era....and then we continued to be clueless in the market...
Gene

p.s. crazy carl is not a good role model to "younger" players

:everett:
hey kids.....i suck...and i'm injury prone...watch me fleece kenny willams...again and again and....

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 04:57 PM
South:

What happened from 1986 through 1989?

Boy rebuilding from the teams of 93-94 sure paid off from 95 through 99 didn't it?

The 2000 team was indeed a year ahead of schedule because it was a fluke plain and simple as evidenced by the fact the Sox haven't come close since.

Thanks for making my arguement.

Lip

southsider17
12-09-2004, 08:28 PM
South:

What happened from 1986 through 1989?Rebuilding. :?: That's what we're talking about, aren't we?

Boy rebuilding from the teams of 93-94 sure paid off from 95 through 99 didn't it?Again, those were the rebuilding years, which brought us to ....

The 2000 team was indeed a year ahead of schedule because it was a fluke plain and simple as evidenced by the fact the Sox haven't come close since.

Thanks for making my arguement.

LipSorry I can't accept your thanks in good conscience. I didn't earn it. As far as "close", I assume you mean the World Series, in which you are correct. But they have been competitive and had a real good shot at making some noise in 2003 ..... but they choked. I thought that was there shot. Now they're just trying to milk an old cow. :whiner:

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 09:32 PM
South:

It took four years to 'rebuild'? in the 80's?

It took five years to 'rebuild' in the 90's?

Hmmm...why is it that other teams seem to do it faster.

Lip

southsider17
12-09-2004, 09:51 PM
South:

It took four years to 'rebuild'? in the 80's?

It took five years to 'rebuild' in the 90's?

Hmmm...why is it that other teams seem to do it faster.

Lip
I never said White Sox management were geniuses.

TDog
12-10-2004, 01:04 AM
The White Sox already seem to have followed Cleveland's example, having rid themselves of the Alomar brothers.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2004, 01:44 PM
South:

But yet you want this organization to tear it down and try to rebuild from the ground up? Do you know TODAY how many fans they would have left given the nature of what the Cubs have done the past two seasons?

Sorry the timing isn't right. Instead of tearing down how about something radicle?

How about buying a winner?

Then you'd have to beat the fans away with a stick which would result in being able to pay your bills and keep the cycle going. Having a club that can consistently win 90 or more games will solve all that ails this franchise.

Lip

southsider17
12-10-2004, 03:43 PM
South:

But yet you want this organization to tear it down and try to rebuild from the ground up? Do you know TODAY how many fans they would have left given the nature of what the Cubs have done the past two seasons?

Sorry the timing isn't right. Instead of tearing down how about something radicle?

How about buying a winner?

Then you'd have to beat the fans away with a stick which would result in being able to pay your bills and keep the cycle going. Having a club that can consistently win 90 or more games will solve all that ails this franchise.

Lip
Of course! But I'm trying to be realistic. JR will never buy a winner unless the fans come out in droves. The fans, on the other hand, won't come out until JR buys a winner.

I think a re-build is more likely. I know we'll lose some fans but most fans already know that this core blew it's chance. The challenge is getting a GM that inspires the confidence of the masses (and who will actually validate that confidence).

Or better yet ...............

:sellreinsy

tstrike2000
12-10-2004, 04:23 PM
I think we should follow Cleveland's example by signing or attempting to sign their washed up veterans from their mid 90's teams. Oh wait! We've already done that.

guillen4life13
12-10-2004, 10:08 PM
Apparently I've sparked a bit of a discussion. Also, you guys might have just read over what I said without thinking about it so clearly.

I'm trying to be real. The Sox aren't going to spend even $80 million on their payroll. Reinsdorf and the rest of the stockholders are not going to sell. Get a grip on reality before saying that the Sox should follow the Yankees' model, because it's not going to happen.

I'm looking for the best way to win. As has been said, the Sox are "milking the cow" they had from 2000. Sorry, but the cow's tits are worn out and the milk coming out doesn't taste so good. '03 was the best chance the Sox had, and they blew it for various reasons. '04, we can say was a failure due to injuries. But think about this: Minnesota had their share of injuries also. They never fell out of the picture. This is because they always have farm players ready in case a regular gets hurt. This has been so for the last 3 years.

Cleveland wasn't a .500 team last year. Sure, but they gave the Sox a run for their money on 2nd place, and this year they're coming back with a year more of experience.

In response to the Everett remarks: I don't remember the sources, but I've heard various accounts of Everett's reputation being false. His peers have called him a great clubhouse presence with a huge drive to win. The players' opinions matter most on whether he's a good role-model/clubhouse presence.

Southsider17: I agree with just about everything you said, except it's becoming apparent that many fans (even the serious ones on WSI) don't think the core of this team has blown its chance. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they keep holding on to this hope. I've lost hope in this core.

It truly hurts me to say this, but if there happens to be a can't say no deal on it, even Frank could be expendable. The deal would have to knock the Sox' socks off (no pun intended), but if it comes, I say take it.


You guys seriously have to get real. Your bitching and moaning about payroll hasn't changed anything about it. As Southsider said, JR will spend once we start coming in droves, but we won't go in droves unless he spends. Obviously, the business model we support is a little bit more logical (who wants to buy a crap product, right?), but we aren't the ones holding the reins. So...the most logical thing to do at this point is rebuild. As KW has said, there isn't much else they can do this offseason since they've maxed (sp?) out their budget almost because of pay raises, etc. The Sox have built excellent teams with their own talent (early '90's, and in the early part of this decade, we had something going, but that milk is rancid now). Why can't they do it again?


In response to the comparison to the Bulls: well, if the Bulls had kept some of the players they drafted instead of trading them away and getting the two giants, they'd probably be going to the playoffs. What would their starting lineup be? They'd at least have these three, and the other two positions could have been had via trade and/or draft (instead of Curry):
Artest
Hinrich
Brand


In response to the Blue Jays having been in the rebuilding process for 10 years: I have news for you, my friend. The Sox don't have to compete for a playoff birth with Boston or the Yankees (or the Orioles, who have been a good team for parts of the Jays' rebuilding period). Case closed.

TDog
12-14-2004, 12:07 AM
I read a Knight Ridder story interviewing the Indians president today. He indicated the team wouldn't be able to go with a payroll of more than $50 million because the team only drew 1.8 million last year. He acknowleged that some suggest spending more money will bring more fans but said that would be a recipe for financial disaster. He also lamented that a number of free agents who seem to be in financial reach don't want to sign with the Indians because they aren't a contender.

I don't have a link because I didn't read it on the Internet. It didn't seem like stuff I hadn't read before, but I'm not sure I've ever read it in this context.

Chrisaway
12-14-2004, 12:31 AM
Excuse me, but I think I just read that Carl Everett is a Role Model?!?! :rolleyes:Maybe that guy doesnt believe in dinosaurs either???

Chrisaway
12-14-2004, 12:33 AM
At this point, I have been so discouraged by the way the Sox have run things over the last few years, and I think that a drastic change of strategy is in order.

I think that they should just own up to the unlikelyhood of there being a World Series on the South Side. So what am I saying?

Rebuild, from head to toe. Do what Cleveland did: keep a few role models for younger guys (ex. keep Buehrle, Everett and Frank), and make many trades for prospects without compromising their farm system. Let's be honest: by the way things look, no marquee players (or otherwise) want to come to Chicago. JR isn't going to sell anytime soon, nor is he going to put out a huge investment into the team (increase the payroll to an adequate amount given the market the Sox have). Start anew, and this time, don't do it half-assed. Cleveland is going to contend for the division next year because of in-grown talent (Gerut, Sabathia, etc.). The Sox are going to fail next year, no matter what course they take. Unfortunately, over the last several years, a pattern has been emerging: trade for one or two marquee players in an offseason (while compromising the farm, might I add), and have a mediocre subsequent season.

I want to see them break the cycle, and it starts in the farm.
No thanks. I'd like to see the Sox at least "try" to win a World Series while Frank is still playing.