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View Full Version : Worst Feeling Since December of '98?


Brian26
12-08-2004, 08:54 PM
This is the worse I've felt about our franchise since around the winter of '98 when it became official that we were letting both Ventura and Belle walk away.

Now Mags is gone. The 2003 team that seemed like it had a chance to challenge for a World Championship is fading quickly. Seems like the end of an era. Wunsch and Jose (big parts of that 2000 team) are gone. The four guys in our lineup that have been together longer than any other 4 guys in the league (Frank, Mags, PK, and Lee) are now broken up. Will Frank ever be back?

Don't mean to be pessimistic, but it just seems like a dark day.

HomeFish
12-08-2004, 09:03 PM
The days won't truly be dark until the piece of trash currently passing for a White Sox team takes the field.

RKMeibalane
12-08-2004, 09:09 PM
This is the worse I've felt about our franchise since around the winter of '98 when it became official that we were letting both Ventura and Belle walk away.

Now Mags is gone. The 2003 team that seemed like it had a chance to challenge for a World Championship is fading quickly. Seems like the end of an era. Wunsch and Jose (big parts of that 2000 team) are gone. The four guys in our lineup that have been together longer than any other 4 guys in the league (Frank, Mags, PK, and Lee) are now broken up. Will Frank ever be back?

Don't mean to be pessimistic, but it just seems like a dark day.
Frank will be back. The only concern I have is what kind of team will be left around him this season. Reinsdorf and Williams need to wake up or get out. This "make due" attitude is way past old. Teams like Detroit, Cleveland, and Seattle are making moves and trying to get better. The Sox, meanwhile, sign Dustin Hermanson, and think that they've accomplished something. They haven't.

Jerry Reinsdorf, get the HELL OUT!

NowBatting19
12-08-2004, 10:07 PM
Sure, its disappointing to lose the players that primarily made it happen in 2000, but since then, for either health reasons or lack of direction/focus, the team hasn't done anything. Deep down, I'm glad there will be some shake ups because ultimately it appears that the organization does want to go a different direction. First, I like the decision of bringing in former Sox players to fulfill the coaching staff and I don't think Kenny is going to give up on bringing in the gamers that can get us back to the playoffs. I'm confident that most fans will feel pretty good about the offseason come January/February.

In fact, I'm going to be bold here and say that for what ever it's worth, the Sox will be ranked in the top three for overall "good" offseason moves. You can hold me to that. I'm very optimistic, and more so than in past years, but with that said I do wish Mags well. I hope the guy goes on to succeed wherever he ends up(except the Cubs and any other AL Central team). I don't want to see him for more than 3-7 games...because then it might hurt. But for whatever the reasons ($, injury status) he is gone. So be it! I like the outfielders we have coming up, but I don't want to have to see them this year. I hope we make a play for a viable replacement via trade for free agency. As for Frank, I'm confident he will return to the three hole with some drive and determination to help the ball club win no matter who bats in front or behind him.

Obviosly, with Frank, Mags, PK, Lee in the middle of the lineup we were a force when healthy(key word). And if Walnuts or Lee goes in a deal, we'll lose even more. Yet, on the bright side, I'm happy the new "talked about" direction of the Sox. I hope we can bring maybe a couple of players in that could give the Sox the type of options Ozzie apparently desires. (Juan Pierre cough cough). I don't want to see Konerko or Lee go, but if it means bringing in a stud pitcher or "spark plug" lead off guy, I'm all for it.

As we remember the the core players from the 2000 season for the good things they did then, I think we'll have better things to say and remember about the current Sox players or new comers in four to five more years. More importantly, I pray that we will speak of the World Series Championship they brought us. I would hope that Lee, Konerko and Thomas could all be here for it, but we'll likely have to substitute a name in for a least one of them. With Mags, the middle four had a nice run, but as you said it, that era is over. It's time for a new one. Look at Boston, Nomar was Boston's guy, Mags was ours, but some things aren't meant to be. Go Sox..2005 World Series Champions. It has a nice ring to it!

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 10:16 PM
I'm really sad that we didnt give Jaret Wright a 3 year contract worth 24+ million or offer arbitration to Magglio without knowing his condition.

OurBitchinMinny
12-09-2004, 01:41 AM
while I dont think it is doomday yet, im not confident about next year. But it is the AL central and is a crappy division so we should be in it. This team will REGRET not retaining ordonez. The whole thing is a fiasco. He has done so much for this team. This team has to grow the F up and learn to deal with people. Sure boras is an ahole, but obviously he does good things for his players because the best ones sign with him. The team has to deal with him. Until they realize that they play in chicago and dont have to spend like its pocatello idaho. Its ridiculous. For the last 5 years maggs has been the face of this franchise (no offense to frank, but he has been up and down and injured). To just let him go is beyond ridiculous. I can understand not signing him to a 5 year deal, but why not do what the scrubs did with mr mia hamm. Incentive laden one year deal to let him prove he is healthy and then sign him long term or not. This team will live to rue this especially if he signs with another AL team or the north siders

LASOXFAN
12-09-2004, 04:21 AM
Kenny inherited a division winning team. How many times has he returned to the playoffs?

JRIG
12-09-2004, 05:17 AM
Yeah, I have a very bad feeling right now.

But, though I have little confidence in KW, I'm sure he's not done making moves for next year yet. So I'll save my predictions of doom and gloom for later.

SOXSINCE'70
12-09-2004, 07:17 AM
Let's just say I don't feel very good right now.:mad:

I'm sick to my stomach thinking the ROYALS could
finish ahead of the White Sox in the standings.:(:

doublem23
12-09-2004, 07:32 AM
Kenny inherited a division winning team. How many times has he returned to the playoffs?
The more time elapses, the more moronic this argument becomes. Look, I loved that 2000 team as much as anyone, but it should be pretty evident that that year was really a fluke. The Sox caught fire in the first half, and buried the aging Indians before the All-Star Break. The 2nd half of 2000, when the Sox were mearly around .500 was a lot more indicative of their true capabilities, IMO.

For reference, the 2000 team had 6 pitchers start 10 or more games; Jim Parque (32), Mike Sirotka (32), James Baldwin (28), Cal Eldred (20), Kip Wells (20), and Jon Garland (13). If you can't see the immense flaws with that rotation then you're anti-KW blinders are on too tight. We're all predicting doom and gloom for 2005 and I'd take a Buehrle-Garcia-Contreras-Garland-Grilli rotation over 2000's Opening Day pitching staff.

I don't think KW has done a great job with the Sox, but I also think it's pretty unfair for him to be judged by what the 2000 for the real indication of the roster he took over.

gosox41
12-09-2004, 08:02 AM
The more time elapses, the more moronic this argument becomes. Look, I loved that 2000 team as much as anyone, but it should be pretty evident that that year was really a fluke. The Sox caught fire in the first half, and buried the aging Indians before the All-Star Break. The 2nd half of 2000, when the Sox were mearly around .500 was a lot more indicative of their true capabilities, IMO.

For reference, the 2000 team had 6 pitchers start 10 or more games; Jim Parque (32), Mike Sirotka (32), James Baldwin (28), Cal Eldred (20), Kip Wells (20), and Jon Garland (13). If you can't see the immense flaws with that rotation then you're anti-KW blinders are on too tight. We're all predicting doom and gloom for 2005 and I'd take a Buehrle-Garcia-Contreras-Garland-Grilli rotation over 2000's Opening Day pitching staff.

I don't think KW has done a great job with the Sox, but I also think it's pretty unfair for him to be judged by what the 2000 for the real indication of the roster he took over.
But there are other ways to judge him. For example, this having 4 right handed hitters in a row in the batting order that have the possibility to suffer extended slumps at the same time. How long did it take KW to break them up? In fact, KW tried to do the opposite and keep Magglio around pre-injury.

Or how about finding a fifth starter instead of the usual rookie dung hole who fills out the rotation. Only took him 4 years to figure that out and he's still talking of having Grilli in the rotation.

It can be argued that having no decent fifth starter the last 2 seasons cost the team a shot at the playoffs.


Bob

doublem23
12-09-2004, 08:12 AM
It can be argued that having no decent fifth starter the last 2 seasons cost the team a shot at the playoffs.

I agree, but I don't think that's entirely his fault.

:reinsy
I have a short leash.

gosox41
12-09-2004, 08:14 AM
I agree, but I don't think that's entirely his fault.

:reinsy
I have a short leash.
Hard to tell. A better allocation of funds would have given the Sox money to get a fifth pitcher (ie extending PK for the amount they did).

On the flip side (and I'll bring it up until things change) a productive farm system would be nice.

And of course I won't go into stupid trades KW made at the beginning of his tenure here that may have prevented this.


Bob

cubhater
12-09-2004, 08:27 AM
This is the worse I've felt about our franchise since around the winter of '98 when it became official that we were letting both Ventura and Belle walk away.

Now Mags is gone. The 2003 team that seemed like it had a chance to challenge for a World Championship is fading quickly. Seems like the end of an era. Wunsch and Jose (big parts of that 2000 team) are gone. The four guys in our lineup that have been together longer than any other 4 guys in the league (Frank, Mags, PK, and Lee) are now broken up. Will Frank ever be back?

Don't mean to be pessimistic, but it just seems like a dark day.
It's not that dark to me. This nucleus, though mostly effective, never won one playoff series and changes have to be made to improve the team. At least the Buffalo Bills made it to the Super Bowl with pretty much the same nucleus during their AFC glory days.

nccwsfan
12-09-2004, 09:05 AM
while I dont think it is doomday yet, im not confident about next year. But it is the AL central and is a crappy division so we should be in it. This team will REGRET not retaining ordonez. The whole thing is a fiasco. He has done so much for this team. This team has to grow the F up and learn to deal with people. Sure boras is an ahole, but obviously he does good things for his players because the best ones sign with him. The team has to deal with him. Until they realize that they play in chicago and dont have to spend like its pocatello idaho. Its ridiculous. For the last 5 years maggs has been the face of this franchise (no offense to frank, but he has been up and down and injured). To just let him go is beyond ridiculous. I can understand not signing him to a 5 year deal, but why not do what the scrubs did with mr mia hamm. Incentive laden one year deal to let him prove he is healthy and then sign him long term or not. This team will live to rue this especially if he signs with another AL team or the north siders
My opinion, but history will show that not re-signing Maggs was a smart decision. #1) He is damaged goods. Until this is proven otherwise (by a workout, clear understanding of his medical records) he is just not the player we've known him to be. Great past but bleak future. #2) I would hope that if given the opportunity Sox management would have signed Maggs to a one-year incentive laden deal, similar to Nomar. NO WAY that Boras would ever do that- his MO is to squeeze every penny and season from a team. Nice idea in theory, but with Boras? No way. #3) If there is one position where we have nice depth, it's the OF (Lee/Rowand/Dye :)/Everett/ with Anderson and Sweeney in the minors).

I love Maggs and really do wish him the best, but as a business decision Sox management did the right thing here.

Foulke29
12-09-2004, 09:28 AM
Kenny inherited a division winning team. How many times has he returned to the playoffs?
You know - I'll say this - in defense of KW (I can't believe I'm doing this).

It is not KW's fault that the Sox didn't make the post season in his tenure.

That 2000 team, though very fun to watch, rivaled the Bride of Frankenstein's Monster. They were a team thrown together with nuts and bolts. Cal Eldred?! Brook Fordyce? Herbert Perry?! Jim Parque? Chris Singleton?

I mean - come on! Did anyone think that team was coming back to win the division again? Granted, Lee, Mags, Thomas, Konerko and Durham were a force to be dealt with, but it was a team that caught a early hot streak and simply could not be caught. I thought it was a bad sign when the lost their way into clinching the division in Minnesota.

Let's talk about KW now for a bit. Sure, Todd Richie was a disaster. Billy Kroch should never play major league baseball again. Alomar and Everett II was just dumb, but think for a moment.

In 2003, they had a guy that they brought over that they expected to win 10 games at the most. He ended up runner up for the Cy Young and put in one of the most dominating seasons for a White Sox pitcher in the last 15 years. Loaiza ended up winning more than ten games than he should have and kept the sox in 15 more games than anticipated. Now, I don't know about you, but when your #4/#5 pitcher puts in a performance like that, teams win divisions. Period!

Thatís not to mention that KW brought over Colon and wasn't afraid to let him go. Sure Colon was very good down the stretch for Anaheim, but he struggled terribly early in the season.

He traded for David Wells - who other than his one year with the Sox - seems to have known how to win. Williams has made some bad moves, but he's also provided the team with the tools to win. 2003 should have been a post season appearance for the Sox, but they could not get a significant lead on Minnesota early and could not finish them off at the end of the year. That's not KW's fault in my book.

Last year, we went into Minnesota's house and embarrassed them, KW brought us Freddy G, and we stood atop the AL Central prior to learning we'd lose Frank and Maggs for the season. Again, we can't blame KW - the farm was spent to bring over Freddy G. What could we have done at that point to add a bat? I've never stood up for KW ever. It's taken me years to come to the conclusion that I've outlined in this post, but the guy has honestly put the tools on the field every year that he's been our GM - with the exception of once.

But not our SoxÖ

that said, I feel that the Dye and Hermanson signings are a step in the right direction - I'm anxious to see where we go from there, because I'm sure KW is not done yet!

Dolanski
12-09-2004, 09:34 AM
My opinion, but history will show that not re-signing Maggs was a smart decision. #1) He is damaged goods. Until this is proven otherwise (by a workout, clear understanding of his medical records) he is just not the player we've known him to be. Great past but bleak future. #2) I would hope that if given the opportunity Sox management would have signed Maggs to a one-year incentive laden deal, similar to Nomar. NO WAY that Boras would ever do that- his MO is to squeeze every penny and season from a team. Nice idea in theory, but with Boras? No way. #3) If there is one position where we have nice depth, it's the OF (Lee/Rowand/Dye :)/Everett/ with Anderson and Sweeney in the minors).

I love Maggs and really do wish him the best, but as a business decision Sox management did the right thing here.
I think everyone for the most part has warm and fuzzy feelings about Maggs. He showed up and did his job. Class act. But too many questions about his future.

Signing Dye means Maggs isn't coming back, however, that doesn't mean Maggs gets what he wants. Boras blew smoke up everyone's ass last year about IRod and Maddux and when no one bit, they got their fair market value or less and less years and perks than he demanded. Boras used to be able to pull the wool over teams eyes and scare them into thinking there was a demand for a player when there wasn't, but it has backfired on him a few times. I see Maggs being talked up all winter, only to sign a 1 or 2 year deal at the end of the winter for less money.