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View Full Version : White Sox sign Dustin Hermanson


Jjav829
12-08-2004, 01:09 PM
2-year deal. More coming.

Edit: Eh, cheeses has the specifics. I merged the threads but the first one always comes up first. 2 years. $5.5 million. 3rd year option. I was so frantic to type this I didn't even listen for the money. :smile:

cheeses_h_rice
12-08-2004, 01:09 PM
2 years, $5.5 million, with a club option for a third year.

Our new closer?

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 01:10 PM
Sad. :whiner:

gosox41
12-08-2004, 01:10 PM
2 years, $5.5 million, with a club option for a third year.

Our new closer?
Good move if he's used in the bullpen.


Bob

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 01:10 PM
Take THAT Cleveland!


Not too bad of a signing considering SF didn't offer arbitration.

Dolanski
12-08-2004, 01:11 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hermadu01.shtml

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5387

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=hermadu01

WhiteSoxFan84
12-08-2004, 01:12 PM
2 years, $5.5 mill, and a team option for a 3rd year

eh, you can delete this, didn't see jjav's pot, sorry

Dolanski
12-08-2004, 01:13 PM
2 years, $5.5 million, with a club option for a third year.

Our new closer?
Either that or 5th starter. This is one of those eh, signings. Then again, so was Loiza a couple years ago.

Still, it ain't Jamie Navarro!

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 01:14 PM
Interesting decision. I can't say it excitements me much. I was just so surprised that we signed someone that it came out with an exclamation point. Does he take over as closer? I don't know that he's any better than Shingo. Maybe he becomes that guy that Kenny wanted who can close, but doesn't necessarily have to be in that role.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 01:14 PM
Wow. His numbers are pretty bad. 4.5 ERA in a pitchers league.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 01:15 PM
Either that or 5th starter. This is one of those eh, signings. Then again, so was Loiza a couple years ago.

Still, it ain't Jamie Navarro!I was about to say, "pray that Hermanson isn't going to be our 5th starter!" :(:

Tekijawa
12-08-2004, 01:15 PM
Boy when Kenny said that we'd be flying under the Radar, I took that as meaning that we we're going to sneak up and get someone big... not Chase low flying Targets.... D'oh!

Justafan
12-08-2004, 01:15 PM
Better than Mike Jackson though.

Al Capone
12-08-2004, 01:16 PM
WOW! Someone from springfield ohio on the sox....now they will get a little coverage in my hometown!

WhiteSoxFan84
12-08-2004, 01:16 PM
Loaiza never pitched in the pen until last year with the Yankees.

This is a HORRIBLE signing in my mind. What I remember most about Hermanson is him blowing a 3-0 Giants 9th inning lead last year which would have tied the Dodgers/Giants for 1st in the NL West with 1 game left in the season.

He's ineffective as a starter and is a decent setup man at best.

This can be looked at as a move that KW made to "stick it" to the Giants for stealing Omar from him?

Man, I would have loved Jason Christiansen, not Dustin Hermanson.

Kevin Walker.... Dustin Hermanson......................................fir e this guy already.

Tekijawa
12-08-2004, 01:17 PM
At least he'll have something to talk about on the SCORE anD MJH now... Looks like the Giants are the team of choice to deal with this year.

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 01:17 PM
Boy when Kenny said that we'd be flying under the Radar, I took that as meaning that we we're going to sneak up and get someone big... not Chase low flying Targets.... D'oh!
Apparently Kenny was flying so slow he saw Dustin Hermanson and just couldn't help but pick him up. I guess this isn't an awful signing. Hopefully he's only a setup man. If Shingo really struggles, then he can take over as closer. On the bright side, we pick up a guy with weird facial hair!

One thing is for sure, I don't think any of us can say we saw this coming.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 01:17 PM
Better than Mike Jackson though.Agreed.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Any signing the improves the quality of personel on the team is welcome.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Another foolish and unnecessary gamble by Williams.

FarWestChicago
12-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Lip should be very happy. Hermanson blows. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Another foolish and unnecessary gamble by Williams.
And I suppose you'd be satisified with KW sitting on his hands? :rolleyes:

Wasn't Gordon considered a "bad" gamble when the Sox picked him up before the 2003 season? :?:

kittle42
12-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Lip should be very happy. Hermanson blows. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Agreed.

I hate it when I'm right about something that makes me sad (this team not doing jack squat).

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Wow. His numbers are pretty bad. 4.5 ERA in a pitchers league.
His stats are somewhat misleading since he was a starter for a decent part of the year. His BAA as a reliever was like .220 & ERA as reliever a not stellar 4.33. But he saved 17/20 games for them in the 2d half with an ERA in the low 3s.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Another foolish and unnecessary gamble by Williams.2 years for $5.5 million is a gamble? LOL! That's not really alot of money dude. :rolleyes:

Justafan
12-08-2004, 01:20 PM
:KW (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"There you go, Sox fans. Now quit saying we have been inactive. This should tide you guys over".

kittle42
12-08-2004, 01:20 PM
And I suppose you'd be satisified with KW sitting on his hands? :rolleyes:

Wasn't Gordon considered a "bad" gamble when the Sox picked him up before the 2003 season? :?:
The point is let's get someone who is an established star (or at least semi-star)...not crap (even if the crap occasionally shines briefly).

Tekijawa
12-08-2004, 01:20 PM
Does anyone have the link to the Season ticket order form?

Thanks in advance,
Teki

Kogs35
12-08-2004, 01:21 PM
On the bright side, we pick up a guy with weird facial hair
countinueing the tradation of rocky bibble!!!:D:

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 01:21 PM
This signing absolutely SUCKS.

Sorry, I said it. I had to.

fquaye149
12-08-2004, 01:22 PM
The point is let's get someone who is an established star (or at least semi-star)...not crap (even if the crap occasionally shines briefly).
let's jump to the conclusion that this is the only move kenny will make.

that should help anything.

WinningUgly!
12-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Lip should be very happy. Hermanson blows. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Yep, he's Rick Helling-bad.

Baby Fisk
12-08-2004, 01:24 PM
:KW

"Y'all are jumpin' to conclusions. Say hello to your new shortstop, Sox fans. How's THAT for thinking out of the box?"

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Does anyone have the link to the Season ticket order form?

Thanks in advance,
Teki
I just wanna know what day he'll be appearing at Soxfest. Man, I can't wait to buy my #32 Hermanson jersey.

We're brutal here. First we complain about the Sox doing nothing, then they do something, and we tear them to shreds for doing it. :D:

I guess we at least know that KW hasn't gone into hibernation for the winter. Here's to Hermanson posting a sub 4 era next year and this being only the first small move building up to a few big White Sox acquisitions. :gulp:

ja1022
12-08-2004, 01:24 PM
GREAT NEWS!!!!! Now, who the hell is he?????

Dolanski
12-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Loaiza never pitched in the pen until last year with the Yankees.

This is a HORRIBLE signing in my mind. What I remember most about Hermanson is him blowing a 3-0 Giants 9th inning lead last year which would have tied the Dodgers/Giants for 1st in the NL West with 1 game left in the season.

He's ineffective as a starter and is a decent setup man at best.

This can be looked at as a move that KW made to "stick it" to the Giants for stealing Omar from him?

Man, I would have loved Jason Christiansen, not Dustin Hermanson.

Kevin Walker.... Dustin Hermanson......................................fir e this guy already.
HORRIBLE? It's not a big splash signing, but its not like he shelled out big money here. Also, it really depends where this guy ends up. 5th starter? Bad signing. Closer? Not so good signing. Setup man? Good signing.

Also, he's spent almost his entire career in the NL. Guys sometimes find new life switching leagues. I don't think you can say good or bad about this signing until you see what they do with him and of course how he pitches.

Still, can't argue that this isn't exactly the big splash signing that everyone on this board is waiting/hoping for...

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 01:26 PM
Still, can't argue that this isn't exactly the big splash signing that everyone on this board is waiting/hoping for...
And therefore, it's a bad move and indicative of the ineptitude of Sox management.

1917
12-08-2004, 01:26 PM
Hey we wanted Bullpen Help, we got Bullpen Help and not a bad one at all at that....as long as he isn't the starting pitcher we have been promised, I'm happy with him in our bullpen

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 01:27 PM
Can we refer to him as Dusty? Then we can hold up signs saying "In Dusty we trusty" whenever he pitches. :rolleyes: :D:

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 01:28 PM
HORRIBLE? It's not a big splash signing, but its not like he shelled out big money here. Also, it really depends where this guy ends up. 5th starter? Bad signing. Closer? Not so good signing. Setup man? Good signing.

Also, he's spent almost his entire career in the NL. Guys sometimes find new life switching leagues. I don't think you can say good or bad about this signing until you see what they do with him and of course how he pitches.

Still, can't argue that this isn't exactly the big splash signing that everyone on this board is waiting/hoping for...
He sure found new life in Boston 2 years ago when he pitched in 22 games and posted an outstanding era of 7.77!:bandance:

I'd rather have Marte set up ... Dustin better just be long relief ... so we can cut the 'fat' with the Adkins diet.

*Holy **** was that 3 puns in one setence...:?:

gosox41
12-08-2004, 01:28 PM
And therefore, it's a bad move and indicative of the ineptitude of Sox management.
Surprisingly, I like this move. But there is one condition:

Hermanson needs to be used in the bullpen only where he has been most effective..


Hermanson has no business being a starter at all.


Bob

Justafan
12-08-2004, 01:28 PM
And therefore, it's a bad move and indicative of the ineptitude of Sox management.Flight,

Should we be doing cartwheels over a guy with a bad ERA in a league where pitchers dominate? This does nothing for me. I am not trying to be negative but it is not a great signing. That's all I'm saying.

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 01:29 PM
Can we refer to him as Dusty? Then we can hold up signs saying "In Dusty we trusty" whenever he pitches. :rolleyes: :D:
DUSTINY!

Hell, we should just color this entire thread teal, it's going to get ugly.:redneck

Alanzo
12-08-2004, 01:29 PM
THIS IS HORRIBLE, TERRIBLE NEWS. AS THIS IS PROOF THAT THERE IS NO GOD AND THAT I AM DOOMED TO LIVE A LIFE OF LONELINESS AND MEANINGLESSNESS, I SHALL NOW GO COMMIT SUICIDE.

FarWestChicago
12-08-2004, 01:30 PM
We're brutal here. First we complain about the Sox doing nothing, then they do something, and we tear them to shreds for doing it. :D: I'm not ripping KW. Just stating what I know. Hermanson blows as a starter and closer. He may be passable as a middle reliever. Regardless, prepare for another round of endless, repetitive, excruciating Lip trolling. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Justafan
12-08-2004, 01:30 PM
:KW (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"He also looks like a grinder".

Tekijawa
12-08-2004, 01:30 PM
That's one hole we never had, Fixed! Kenny must work for IDOT durring the offseason.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 01:36 PM
Shingo is still the closer.

Marte and Pollite are still the setup guys.

Hermanson will be a middle reliever. And that makes this a good signing.

Jeez people, the bullpen was one of the holes on this team. We lacked depth, and injuries caught up to our pen in the final months of the season. Considering the price, this was a great signing.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-08-2004, 01:36 PM
Also, he's spent almost his entire career in the NL. Guys sometimes find new life switching leagues. I don't think you can say good or bad about this signing until you see what they do with him and of course how he pitches.
You're absolutely right. How can I have forgotten about Todd Ritchie. That worked out GREAT. It's true the other way around, AL pitchers going to the NL have more success; Jaret Wright, Jose Lima, Wilson Alvarez, etc., etc. NL to AL is much harder.

I personally don't like the move doesn't mean you all have to dislike it. It means just that, I'd rather have had Christiansen and Paul Shuey.

WinningUgly!
12-08-2004, 01:37 PM
Can we refer to him as Dusty? Then we can hold up signs saying "In Dusty we trusty" whenever he pitches. :rolleyes: :D:
Nope. We'll have to change it to "We trust in Dustin".
Make sure those signs are in teal!:)

Mickster
12-08-2004, 01:37 PM
I'm not ripping KW. Just stating what I know. Hermanson blows as a starter and closer. He may be passable as a middle reliever. Regardless, prepare for another round of endless, repetitive, excruciating Lip trolling. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Lip trolling? What are you talking about?

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 01:40 PM
Flight,

Should we be doing cartwheels over a guy with a bad ERA in a league where pitchers dominate? This does nothing for me. I am not trying to be negative but it is not a great signing. That's all I'm saying.
Not at all. My point was that a low-risk, low-tier signing is nothing to do cartwheels over, but it's also nothing to obsess and bemoan the fate of the franchise over either.

Hermanson has been a below average pitcher, especially as a starter. However last year in the 2d half, when he became the Giant's primary closer, he actually posted decent stats. I can't say that I've watched him much, but perusing his game log from 2004, he appears to have become the close in August (he started prior to that). In Aug & Sep he posted ERAs of 3.12 & 3.18. he saves 17 games & blew 3. He posted a WHIP of 1.14. It's a small sample size, but at a relatively cheap price, it's low risk, with a solid reward potential.

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 01:41 PM
Not that I am totally excited about this pick, but don't forget that Hermanson was a top notch prospect in S.D. farm system (third pick over all in amatuer draft) - and he put in a couple of pretty good years for Montreal before jumping around from team to team.

Never know what could happen with a change of scenary.

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 01:41 PM
The point is let's get someone who is an established star (or at least semi-star)...not crap (even if the crap occasionally shines briefly).
Since Hermanson became a reliever: 27 IP, 22 H, 11 BB. 28K's, 4.33 ERA (if you don't count that meltdown on the last day of the season it would've been around 3.00,) a WHIP of 1.22.
I only see 4 bad outings from him, but they were Koch-like bad.
Stats (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/stats/cws_individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?playerID=1 15812&statType=2)

SoxFan78
12-08-2004, 01:41 PM
This move makes my first down payment on my season tickets all the worthwhile!!!

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 01:42 PM
Surprisingly, I like this move. But there is one condition:

Hermanson needs to be used in the bullpen only where he has been most effective..


Hermanson has no business being a starter at all.


Bob
KW has told chicagosports.com that Dustin will be used as the setup man.

knocko94
12-08-2004, 01:42 PM
:KW

"Dustin is a pitcher who has performed well throughout his career in a variety of roles, but we envision using him in a setup role,"

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041208soxhermanson,1,5991774.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Rocklive99
12-08-2004, 01:44 PM
He's not going to be the closer, he's sticking to Shingo. But it sounds like he will be in the bullpen (On the Score right now with B and B). Now KW is saying if there is some need in July he could start

California Sox
12-08-2004, 01:45 PM
Wasn't Gordon considered a "bad" gamble when the Sox picked him up before the 2003 season? :?:
By whom? Gordon was coming off a dominant half season in Houston. The only question mark was his health.

Hermanson has a good arm, but he has never really been effective anywhere, at least not consistently. I pray to God he is here to compete with Politte for the seventh inning. He cannot be a starter.

Jurr
12-08-2004, 01:46 PM
Well, that settles one part of the puzzle (we hope).

I wonder what's going to be the deal with Damaso??? Are we going double barreled in the setup role?

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 01:47 PM
By whom? Gordon was coming off a dominant half season in Houston. The only question mark was his health.

Hermanson has a good arm, but he has never really been effective anywhere, at least not consistently. I pray to God he is here to compete with Politte for the seventh inning. He cannot be a starter.
uhm - you're not entirely right there CaliSox. Go back to roughly '97 and '98 and check out his numbers in Montreal...

1917
12-08-2004, 01:47 PM
KW did say he would be a aet up man...but what about Schoenweiss?

Dolanski
12-08-2004, 01:47 PM
You're absolutely right. How can I have forgotten about Todd Ritchie. That worked out GREAT. It's true the other way around, AL pitchers going to the NL have more success; Jaret Wright, Jose Lima, Wilson Alvarez, etc., etc. NL to AL is much harder.

I personally don't like the move doesn't mean you all have to dislike it. It means just that, I'd rather have had Christiansen and Paul Shuey.
I said some guys.Just trying to be positive here. If he is here for middle relief/some setup duty, this is not a bad signing. I don't recall signing Tom Gordon as being considered very good and look how that turned out. We plugged a hole and filled a need. 1 down, 3 to go.

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 01:48 PM
Now KW is saying if there is some need in July he could start
:ohno

mjharrison72
12-08-2004, 01:51 PM
Shingo is still the closer.

Marte and Pollite are still the setup guys.

Hermanson will be a middle reliever. And that makes this a good signing.

Jeez people, the bullpen was one of the holes on this team. We lacked depth, and injuries caught up to our pen in the final months of the season. Considering the price, this was a great signing.I agree... as soon as the Giants signed Benitez, I thought the Sox should consider Hermanson as a middle reliever. He can also come in to try to hold when the Sox are down a couple of runs (is there a name for that kind of reliever?).

faneidde
12-08-2004, 01:54 PM
I'm not thrilled by this signing, but it doesn't bother me either. Not that much money and the Sox did need a righty in the bullpen.
My only concern is not only did he pitch in the NL, but he pitched in the NL West, which has 4 parks that are heaven for pitchers. The Bob, Pac Bell, Petco, and Dodger Stadium are all very good pitchers' parks. Hopefully he'll be able to handle the lauching pad that has become the Cel.

hosieryofthegods
12-08-2004, 02:05 PM
countinueing the tradation of rocky bibble!!!:D:Does Rocky Bibble hang around with Jose Valentine?:tongue:

I don't mind this signing at all. We needed bullpen help, we got expirienced bullpen help. As a spot starter, I wouldn't expect more from him than a Felix Diaz-ish start.

Tekijawa
12-08-2004, 02:15 PM
Red Sox sign Mantei for less than a Mil... Does hermanson still look like a Bargan?

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:16 PM
Red Sox sign Mantei for less than a Mil... Does hermanson still look like a Bargan?
You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding. Less then 1 million?

34 Inch Stick
12-08-2004, 02:16 PM
I think this was a good move. We are quickly clearing some of the garbage out of the bullpen and filling it with legitimate major leaguers. This has absolutely no effect on our pursuit of a starter and strenghtens the bullpen. I don't understand the uproar.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 02:17 PM
Red Sox sign Mantei for less than a Mil... Does hermanson still look like a Bargan?The Red Sox signed Mantei to a 1-year, $750,000 contract to be exact. :whiner:

ESPN.com's Free Agent Tracker
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?type=signed

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:18 PM
I think this was a good move. We are quickly clearing some of the garbage out of the bullpen and filling it with legitimate major leaguers. This has absolutely no effect on our pursuit of a starter and strenghtens the bullpen. I don't understand the uproar.He's was mediocre in the NL. This is NOT a great move at all. More like a move just to say we've done something.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:20 PM
The Red Sox signed Mantei to a 1-year, $750,000 contract to be exact. :whiner:

ESPN.com's Free Agent Tracker
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents?type=signed
The difference being that Mantei is oft-injured, making him much more risky than Hermanson.

jabrch
12-08-2004, 02:22 PM
Red Sox sign Mantei for less than a Mil... Does hermanson still look like a Bargan?
yes, Manteii has been hurt 4 years in a row, averaging under 25 innings per season over that period of time. Hermanson still looks like a good signing.

JRIG
12-08-2004, 02:23 PM
My first thought is....the high price of mediocrity continues to rise.

Hermanson is not a killer, but he's average at best with a declining K rate, if I read that stats correctly. Mantei is a better option for higher reward (and yes, a higher risk too) but while while locked into Hermanson for two years, Boston takes a gamble on Manteio for one year and less than $1 million.

Hermanson is not going to be any better than Cliff Politte. Is it rational to pay him $5.5 million over two years? No, I don't think so.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 02:24 PM
The difference being that Mantei is oft-injured, making him much more risky than Hermanson.Yes, yes, I know. I'm not that disappointed. Mantei is a HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD signing but for only $750,000 for 1 year, he's easily worth it.

Hangar18
12-08-2004, 02:24 PM
Better than Mike Jackson though.
Whoah, a 4.50 Era in the NATIONAL LEAGUE? my gosh, if
we factor in the NL to AL stats, this guy may be worse than Mike Jackson.
Maybe Kenny is rolling the dice that this guy turns the corner in 05.
Sighs. at least we signed someone

quakeroats
12-08-2004, 02:26 PM
I guess I'm the only one who wouldn't mind Hermanson as a fifth starter. Looking at his stats with Montreal from 97 to 2k, he seems to have been a nice bottom rotation workhorse. Also watched a couple of his starts on mlb.com in September, I'd say he is even more safe than Garland as a starter, though Garland probably has more upside in the long run (being younger than Dustin). Anyway, I still think KW will sign a better starter, maybe Clement, Odalis Perez or even a Russ Ortiz.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:26 PM
Whoah, a 4.50 Era in the NATIONAL LEAGUE? my gosh, if
we factor in the NL to AL stats, this guy may be worse than Mike Jackson.
Maybe Kenny is rolling the dice that this guy turns the corner in 05.
Sighs. at least we signed someone
I don't like the signing, Hangar. He is actually brutal and not likely to get better at 31 years old.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:26 PM
Yes, yes, I know. I'm not that disappointed. Mantei is a HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD signing but for only $750,000 for 1 year he's worth it.
I would agree with that. <1mil is virtually free, and with no long-term commitment you could get a guy with huge upside. Of course, if your'e Mantei and you're going to be going at that rate, probably better to do it with a winning team where you can hopefully pump up your value better to hit the market again in '05.

I just don't think that Mantei's price implies that we overpaid for Hermanson.

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 02:27 PM
Whoah, a 4.50 Era in the NATIONAL LEAGUE? my gosh, if
we factor in the NL to AL stats, this guy may be worse than Mike Jackson.
Maybe Kenny is rolling the dice that this guy turns the corner in 05.
Sighs. at least we signed someone
Micheal Jackson's era is very misleading ... it should be in the freaking nines, he was so bad. Bases loaded? Never fear, Jackson's here!

So let's not go say things about Dustin we can't take back.:redneck

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 02:27 PM
I think this is a good signing. If you look at his stats as a reliever, they just look mediocre, but they're skewed because he let up 4 ER in two games each down the stretch totalling 1 IP. That's a 72.00 ERA in those games and a much lower ERA in others. I think this is a good signing because it adds to bullpen depth, something we desperately needed.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:27 PM
Hey, Todd Walker could have been had for less and solve the 2nd base problem.

duke of dorwood
12-08-2004, 02:29 PM
:KW

I'll still find a way to give up 3 guys for him

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:29 PM
Hey, Todd Walker could have been had for less and solve the 2nd base problem.
Not when you factor in compensation picks you'd have had to give the Cubs. That also assumes he would have left the Cubs for the same price.

quakeroats
12-08-2004, 02:29 PM
Whoah, a 4.50 Era in the NATIONAL LEAGUE? my gosh, if
we factor in the NL to AL stats, this guy may be worse than Mike Jackson.
Maybe Kenny is rolling the dice that this guy turns the corner in 05.
Sighs. at least we signed someone
The NL ERA average last year was 4.30, so Hermanson wasn't horrible, I'd say he is about average.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 02:30 PM
Hey, Todd Walker could have been had for less and solve the 2nd base problem.Did you ever think that Walker just wanted to stick with the Cubs? Once they cut ties with Grudzielanek, Walker knew he would get to start everyday. Willie Harris could have cut into Walker's playing time here since Walker is questionable with the glove.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:30 PM
Goes to show how desperate for news people are when signing Dustin Hermanson can generate 80 replies in under 90 minutes. It's a bullpen fill-in. Face it. There isn't enough good pitching to go around, and every bullpen has a Dustin Hermanson or two. Does anyone seriously think next year's success/failure is going to depend on Dustin Hermanson?

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:31 PM
Did you ever think that Walker just wanted to stick with the Cubs? Once they cut ties with Grudzielanek, Walker knew he would get to start everyday. Willie Harris could have cut into Walker's playing time here since Walker is questionable with the glove.
He, IMO, was worth a look over Willie Harris. Would he have left the Cubs? Maybe, maybe not. But it could not have hurt to ask.

duke of dorwood
12-08-2004, 02:31 PM
Its some depth that we need. That's about all.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:33 PM
He, IMO, was worth a look over Willie Harris. Would he have left the Cubs? Maybe, maybe not. But it could not have hurt to ask.
How do you know KW didn't? IIRC, there were some rumors that Walker & the Sox were in discussions a few weeks back.

mweflen
12-08-2004, 02:34 PM
Hermanson made $800,000 in 2004 according to ESPN.com.


Umm... what justifies 2yrs/$5.5mm?

KW needs to lay off the hookah pipe if he wants to be frugal and have money left over for actual good players.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:34 PM
How do you know KW didn't? IIRC, there were some rumors that Walker & the Sox were in discussions a few weeks back.
That is what I thought too, Flight. However, Walker said that his offers were from Texas and the Cubs.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:35 PM
Hermanson made $800,000 in 2004 according to ESPN.com.


Umm... what justifies 2yrs/$5.5mm?

KW needs to lay off the hookah pipe if he wants to be frugal and have money left over for actual good players.
LOL!

quakeroats
12-08-2004, 02:36 PM
Goes to show how desperate for news people are when signing Dustin Hermanson can generate 80 replies in under 90 minutes. It's a bullpen fill-in. Face it. There isn't enough good pitching to go around, and every bullpen has a Dustin Hermanson or two. Does anyone seriously think next year's success/failure is going to depend on Dustin Hermanson?
You never know. Hermanson actually did pretty well down the stretch as a starter for SF. He's no ace, but he is a solid bullpen/spot starter type. At best he could be like Rusch was for the Cubs last year (and Rusch had HORRIBLE stats in 2003). My only problem with the signing is the cost. Hermanson should have been signed for less. 2.5 million a year is a bit pricey for a spot starter/setup/cleanup guy.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Hermanson made $800,000 in 2004 according to ESPN.com.


Umm... what justifies 2yrs/$5.5mm?

KW needs to lay off the hookah pipe if he wants to be frugal and have money left over for actual good players.So he's incompetent when he pays too much money for a FA. And he's incompetent when he lets one get away because he'd cost too much money. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here.

Tekijawa
12-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Does anyone seriously think next year's success/failure is going to depend on Dustin Hermanson?
Wonder if any Giants fans could answer this? My guess is that the might flash back to a game with the Dodgers that he blew?

JRIG
12-08-2004, 02:38 PM
Hermanson made $800,000 in 2004 according to ESPN.com.


Umm... what justifies 2yrs/$5.5mm?

KW needs to lay off the hookah pipe if he wants to be frugal and have money left over for actual good players.
:KW

"You can't spend a dollar if you only have fifty cents...especially if you've just spent seventy-five cents on already chewed bubble gum."

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:38 PM
That is what I thought too, Flight. However, Walker said that his offers were from Texas and the Cubs.
Means little without knowing more about the offers or discussions. Walker may have said "Cubs or home to Texas unless someone pays a bundle". Or he may have said "I want a guaranteed starting job".

There's enough negativity around here IMO without adding to it by jumping to conclusions that we didn't make an effort to go after guys with no evidence one way or another.

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 02:39 PM
You never know. Hermanson actually did pretty well down the stretch as a starter for SF. He's no ace, but he is a solid bullpen/spot starter type. At best he could be like Rusch was for the Cubs last year (and Rusch had HORRIBLE stats in 2003). My only problem with the signing is the cost. Hermanson should have been signed for less. 2.5 million a year is a bit pricey for a spot starter/setup/cleanup guy.Well, since you are comparing Hermanson to Glendon Rusch...

Rusch just got a 2-year deal for $4 million from the Cubs that can be worth up to $6 million with incentives.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:40 PM
So he's incompetent when he pays too much money for a FA. And he's incompetent when he lets one get away because he'd cost too much money. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here.
Not to mention all of the comments that "The Sox better get used to the idea that they're going ot have to overpay if they want to get guys to come here".

mweflen
12-08-2004, 02:41 PM
So he's incompetent when he pays too much money for a FA. And he's incompetent when he lets one get away because he'd cost too much money. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here.
Look, there's paying too much for someone with good stats/history and paying too much for someone with bupkus. One is stupid but perhaps necessary, the other is just plain stupid.

Honestly now, which category does Hermanson fall into?

At least this isn't cheap and stupid... just stupid :tongue:

Baby Fisk
12-08-2004, 02:43 PM
It's a bullpen fill-in. Face it. There isn't enough good pitching to go around, and every bullpen has a Dustin Hermanson or two. Does anyone seriously think next year's success/failure is going to depend on Dustin Hermanson?Not entirely, but remember how many 2004 games went from being "CLOSE" to being "A DEBACLE" in the space of one or two relief innings? A couple of games like that can mean the difference between a Wild Card or not. Or the difference between 3rd place and 4th place. OMG my pessimism is rampant today. I need a drink. :gulp:

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:44 PM
Look, there's paying too much for someone with good stats/history and paying too much for someone with bupkus. One is stupid but perhaps necessary, the other is just plain stupid.

Honestly now, which category does Hermanson fall into?

At least this isn't cheap and stupid... just stupid :tongue:Since when is it "necessary" to try to outbid the Yankees for a pitcher? $2M for Hermanson is stupid, but more than $7M (how much more we'll never know) for Wright is "necessary"?

Mickster
12-08-2004, 02:46 PM
So he's incompetent when he pays too much money for a FA. And he's incompetent when he lets one get away because he'd cost too much money. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here.
Me too. KW is just incompetent! :redneck

ChiSox14305635
12-08-2004, 02:47 PM
I don't know if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but for those who think Mantei would've been a better bargain, keep in mind, Mantei wasn't interested in playing for the White Sox. From a Score update from about 3 weeks ago, he said he was interested in playing for the Cubs. You can't fault KW for not signing a guy who didn't want to come here in the first place.

southsider17
12-08-2004, 02:48 PM
:tomatoaward About Dustin Hermanson?!!!!!

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:50 PM
:tomatoaward About Dustin Hermanson?!!!!!In under 2 hours!!!

SOXit2EM
12-08-2004, 02:50 PM
Hermanson had a pretty good year last year as a starter and a closer. Hopefully he will be used as a setup man, where i think he would fit much better. We'll see...:?:

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
Well, I guess if nothing else, our bullpen is rounding into form.

Closer- Shingo
LH setup man- Marte
RH setup men- Hermanson and Politte
Long relief- Adkins

Still a few open spots, but I'd guess those 5 spots are set. We still need a second lefty. Does Cotts fill that spot? Kevin Walker maybe as the 2nd lefty? Does Munoz get a shot? Diaz? Bajenaru? Still some questions as to who fills out the rest of the spots, but I'd say those 5 spots are filled right now.

Palehose13
12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
So he's incompetent when he pays too much money for a FA. And he's incompetent when he lets one get away because he'd cost too much money. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here.
Now you're getting some of the logic here, ON2! Don't try to figure out much more than that...you'd give yourself a migrane!

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:53 PM
Well, I guess if nothing else, our bullpen is rounding into form.

Closer- Shingo
LH setup man- Marte
RH setup men- Hermanson and Politte
Long relief- Adkins

Still a few open spots, but I'd guess those spots are set. We still need a second lefty. Does Cotts fill that spot? Kevin Walker maybe as the 2nd lefty? Does Munoz get a shot? Diaz? Bajenaru? Still some questions as to who fills out the rest of the spots, but I'd say those 5 spots are filled right now.I wouldn't even count on Adkins. He could be dealt. I expect the last few spots won't be decided until spring training.

southsider17
12-08-2004, 02:54 PM
In under 2 hours!!!
Damn, we're pathetic! :help:

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:55 PM
Damn, we're pathetic! :help:More like desperate for Kenny to throw us a bone.

ChiSox14305635
12-08-2004, 03:00 PM
Maybe the Sox plan on using Hermanson the way they used Sean Lowe or how they envisioned using Gary Glover before he forgot how to pitch.

mweflen
12-08-2004, 03:01 PM
Since when is it "necessary" to try to outbid the Yankees for a pitcher? $2M for Hermanson is stupid, but more than $7M (how much more we'll never know) for Wright is "necessary"?
I never said we should outbid the Yankees for Jaret Wright. His stats don't justify it.

Jon Lieber, on the other hand...

JRIG
12-08-2004, 03:03 PM
I never said we should outbid the Yankees for Jaret Wright. His stats don't justify it.

Jon Lieber, on the other hand...
...is off the market. Just signed with the Phillies. See "Talking Baseball" for more.

OEO Magglio
12-08-2004, 03:28 PM
This is a solid signing. With this move the backend of our bullpen is really rock solid with Dustin, Cliff, Damaso and Shingo.

MERPER
12-08-2004, 03:29 PM
I don't see any problems with this... he is cheap, and proved he an handle the pressure most of the time last year in the bullpen... don't be deceived, his overall numbers are based on starting as well (which he can't do)... if marte rebounds we have a solid 7-8-9 with marte, hermanson, shingo... and of course he can spot-start

Wealz
12-08-2004, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't even count on Adkins. He could be dealt. I expect the last few spots won't be decided until spring training.
How much better was Hermanson last year than Adkins?

ilsox7
12-08-2004, 03:32 PM
I don't see any problems with this... he is cheap, and proved he an handle the pressure most of the time last year in the bullpen... don't be deceived, his overall numbers are based on starting as well (which he can't do)... if marte rebounds we have a solid 7-8-9 with marte, hermanson, shingo... and of course he can spot-start
Agreed. We probably paid slightly too much, but not enough over the top to cause all of this uproar. Let's face reaity: for the time being, we have to overpay for just about anyone these days. If we are able to somehow land Clement and Dye, I'd say KW has done a tremendous job. That's a HUGE if though and probably quite unlikely. Oh well...

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 03:36 PM
Hermanson made $800,000 in 2004 according to ESPN.com.


Umm... what justifies 2yrs/$5.5mm?

KW needs to lay off the hookah pipe if he wants to be frugal and have money left over for actual good players.
Benitez, Percival, and did you see the contract Rheal Cormier got? :?:

the_valenstache
12-08-2004, 03:37 PM
I'm all for adding to the bullpen, he just has to prove himself on this team.

On another note, I think that if we won the World Series in the next few years with KW as GM, the day after the drunken revelry wore off, people would still be on here posting about how he screwed us over for next year's repeat by not signing so-and-so....

A basic rule I've learned about enjoying this site and being a Sox fan in general just so happens to be my favorite Elvis Costello line:

I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused.

Dolanski
12-08-2004, 03:38 PM
Agreed. We probably paid slightly too much, but not enough over the top to cause all of this uproar. Let's face reaity: for the time being, we have to overpay for just about anyone these days. If we are able to somehow land Clement and Dye, I'd say KW has done a tremendous job. That's a HUGE if though and probably quite unlikely. Oh well...
Uproar, of course there is uproar. Kenny didn't spend on a top of the line FA so of course people are upset. he didn't make the biggest signing of the season so of course people are upset. He didn't mortgage the future on a trade for a 41 year old pitcher so of course people are upset.

In case you haven't figured it out, Sox fans want their cake and eat it too. They want Kenny to sign the biggest and baddest free agents, but spend little to no money on them or give up little to nothing for them.

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 03:39 PM
How much better was Hermanson last year than Adkins?I posted his stats as a reliever earlier in the thread, should I start a thread?

He had a WHIP of 1.22 in 27 innings, a 4.33 ERA with 28 K's and 4 bad outings. Had Hermanson not had that meltdown against the Dodgers on the second to last game of the season, his ERA would have been 3.00/

Go :whiner: about something else already.

ilsox7
12-08-2004, 03:40 PM
Uproar, of course there is uproar. Kenny didn't spend on a top of the line FA so of course people are upset. he didn't make the biggest signing of the season so of course people are upset. He didn't mortgage the future on a trade for a 41 year old pitcher so of course people are upset.

In case you haven't figured it out, Sox fans want their cake and eat it too. They want Kenny to sign the biggest and baddest free agents, but spend little to no money on them or give up little to nothing for them.
Oh, I've figured it out. I just felt like pointing it out today. I still hold out hope, mostly b/c, well, I don't have much else to hold onto. My rope is running out.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 03:44 PM
I posted his stats as a reliever earlier in the thread, should I start a thread?

He had a WHIP of 1.22 in 27 innings, a 4.33 ERA with 28 K's and 4 bad outings. Had Hermanson not had that meltdown against the Dodgers on the second to last game of the season, his ERA would have been 3.00/

Go :whiner: about something else already.
Now that's a ringing endorsement.

santo=dorf
12-08-2004, 03:47 PM
Now that's a ringing endorsement. :whiner:
It's much better than your "argument."

Wealz
12-08-2004, 03:48 PM
:whiner:
It's much better than your "argument."
You're right.

fquaye149
12-08-2004, 03:50 PM
my mother****ing god

this is ridiculous.

the supply/demand ratio of pitchers this offseason is unbearably skewed in the advantage of pitchers.

if you stopped for one second to consider the situation, you would realize that we are lucky to get any competent pitcher in free-agent signings this off-season...

not to say hermanson is any sort of answer...but i'll tell you what: i feel a lot more comfortable going into the season with 4 known commodities in the bullpen + cotts than with 3 + koch. Even if he's just average it's better than some of the b(e)low average relievers we were working with last year.

YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH PITCHING.

period. Take it to the bank.

not a great move, but you all need to put a pacifier in your mouth and stop crying as if Kenny were presenting him as the 5th starter or even the premiere setup man.

Just an attrition move so honestly can we stop the ****ing blubbering?

CWSGuy406
12-08-2004, 03:55 PM
How much better was Hermanson last year than Adkins?Well, he was able to convert 17 out of 20 save opportunities down the stretch for the Giants, which tells me he's much better suited for the bullpen than for the rotation.

It'll be nice, however, to have a versataile guy such as Hermanson in the bullpen, he'll be able to give us anywhere from one inning to three-four innings at a time. Definitely a nice addition.

I don't see why this moves provokes so much hated responses. For Christ sakes, it cost us 2.75 million for this year and next year. I can see how you're not ordering playoff tickets or anything like that, but it's nothing to get your blood boiling over...

EDIT: A question to those who really despise the move. What other relievers are available for under three million would you have liked? Mantei has been mentioned, but he didn't want to come here. I think Osuna would be a nice, cheap option, and he's still available, so Kenny might still be looking there. There's also Williamson, but he's coming off of TJ surgery, so I doubt he'd be able to help us until 2006, or late '05. Hermanson seems like he's in the middle of the pack as far as relievers this offseason...

mweflen
12-08-2004, 03:55 PM
He didn't mortgage the future on a trade for a 41 year old pitcher so of course people are upset.
I for one am not upset about this in the slightest.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 04:16 PM
Well, he was able to convert 17 out of 20 save opportunities down the stretch for the Giants, which tells me he's much better suited for the bullpen than for the rotation.

It'll be nice, however, to have a versataile guy such as Hermanson in the bullpen, he'll be able to give us anywhere from one inning to three-four innings at a time. Definitely a nice addition.

I don't see why this moves provokes so much hated responses. For Christ sakes, it cost us 2.75 million for this year and next year. I can see how you're not ordering playoff tickets or anything like that, but it's nothing to get your blood boiling over...

EDIT: A question to those who really despise the move. What other relievers are available for under three million would you have liked? Mantei has been mentioned, but he didn't want to come here. I think Osuna would be a nice, cheap option, and he's still available, so Kenny might still be looking there. There's also Williamson, but he's coming off of TJ surgery, so I doubt he'd be able to help us until 2006, or late '05. Hermanson seems like he's in the middle of the pack as far as relievers this offseason...
How about 1 yr of Mantei @ $1.5M and 1 yr of Todd Walker for $3M?

maurice
12-08-2004, 04:21 PM
IMHO, he's a bargain if he performs at established levels as a starter over 30+ starts. As a bullpen arm, he's rather bleh. Here are his three-year splits, according to ESPN.com:
142.1 INN as a starter - 7 W, 5 L, 4.17 ERA
79.1 INN as a reliever - 5.67 ERA
At this rate, KW's not going to acquire a better starter, but any number of guys could post a 6 ERA out of the pen for much less money.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 04:23 PM
IMHO, he's a bargain if he performs at established levels as a starter over 30+ starts. As a bullpen arm, he's rather bleh. Here are his three-year splits, according to ESPN.com:
142.1 INN as a starter - 7 W, 5 L, 4.17 ERA
79.1 INN as a reliever - 5.67 ERA
At this rate, KW's not going to acquite a better starter, but any number of guys could post a 6 ERA out of the pen for much less money.
If people can't see this guy is the definition of the word suck, I don't know what they are smoking.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 04:25 PM
IMHO, he's a bargain if he performs at established levels as a starter over 30+ starts. As a bullpen arm, he's rather bleh. Here are his three-year splits, according to ESPN.com:
142.1 INN as a starter - 7 W, 5 L, 4.17 ERA
79.1 INN as a reliever - 5.67 ERA
At this rate, KW's not going to acquite a better starter, but any number of guys could post a 6 ERA out of the pen for much less money.
Those reliever #s are interesting, in 27IP last year, he posted much better #s when you exclude 1 outing at the end of the year, his ERA was about 3 and his WHIP about 1.15. He also saved 17/20. I can't get the prior year's game log on ESPN to see, but I wonder how much he's been used as a reliever in the past and if he's had a couple of inividual outings that skew the 3-yr #s somewhat.

ChiSox14305635
12-08-2004, 04:25 PM
How about 1 yr of Mantei @ $1.5M and 1 yr of Todd Walker for $3M?

Walker was interested in playing for the Sox, Mantei wasn't.

hawkeyesrule
12-08-2004, 04:35 PM
Here's my problem with it: that money could have been applied to an impact player. I read that Clement has an offer from the Tribe 3/$18m. Why can't we pay that for crying out loud??? Seriously, we can find a young, cheap player to put up a 4.30 in the bullpen!

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 04:37 PM
You guys are all missing the big picture. When Randy Johnson hears we have Dustin Hermanson to back him up in the bullpen, he'll be calling Kenny BEGGING to come to the White Sox.

maurice
12-08-2004, 04:43 PM
I wonder how much he's been used as a reliever in the past
2004 - 18 GS, 29 relief appearances
2003 - 6 GS, 26 relief appearances
2002 - 1 GS, 11 relief appearances

He started 28+ games each of the previous five years.

ondafarm
12-08-2004, 04:46 PM
Is there a pitching machine available we could trade him for?

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 04:47 PM
2004 - 18 GS, 29 relief appearances
2003 - 6 GS, 26 relief appearances
2002 - 1 GS, 11 relief appearances

He started 28+ games each of the previous five years.
Was he hurt in 2002 or 2003? seems like a low # of appearances. Any breakdown stats from those years for his relief outings? What do they look like (i.e. was he solid with a bad outing or 2 or was he generally consistent but bad?)

Tragg
12-08-2004, 04:55 PM
I've seen worse uses of 5 million; One year's worth of Clayton comes to mind

However, I do believe we've turned down bullpen pitchers with much more formidable resumes at similar dollars, in the past few years

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 05:03 PM
I've seen worse uses of 5 million; One year's worth of Clayton comes to mind

However, I do believe we've turned down bullpen pitchers with much more formidable resumes at similar dollars, in the past few yearsLook over the list of FA middle relievers. It's a pretty unimpressive bunch. And for good reason. Middle relief is usually where you find the weakest pitchers. If they were any good, they'd be starting or closing. Compared with what's available, Hermanson is among the better ones.

OG4LIFE
12-08-2004, 05:05 PM
"I'VE WANTED DUSTIN HERMANSON FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS"


wow, i liked kenny williams at one point, but ***- this is a guy that you've spent 3 years looking at and trying to acquire? the 'number 1 target for the back our bullpen'???!?1?!?!?!?

***...

faneidde
12-08-2004, 05:29 PM
when you exclude 1 outing at the end of the year Why, did someone else pitch that day? If you exclude opening day last year, the Billy Goat was that awful. Its not fair to just throw out one outing to better fit your theory. That said, I have no problem with this signing.

fquaye149
12-08-2004, 05:33 PM
Why, did someone else pitch that day? If you exclude opening day last year, the Billy Goat was that awful. Its not fair to just throw out one outing to better fit your theory. That said, I have no problem with this signing.
first of all...i agree that hermanson's sample size of decent pitching at the end is too small to throw out anything...

but ONE APPEARANCE? you can't throw out ONE APPEARANCE as aberration...wow...

and are you kidding me? you think you only have to throw out opening day last year to make koch look reasonable....

hmmm

Win1ForMe
12-08-2004, 05:51 PM
Have to say I like this move. I went through his game log and saw that his overall ERA was hurt by the four games in which he gave up a lot of runs. But those were the ONLY games in which he gave up runs. So it appears that he's pretty solid (25 of 29 relief appearances he held opponents scoreless) but will have a couple of meltdown games where he's just brutal.

nodiggity59
12-08-2004, 05:54 PM
Have to say I like this move. I went through his game log and saw that his overall ERA was hurt by the four games in which he gave up a lot of runs. But those were the ONLY games in which he gave up runs. So it appears that he's pretty solid (25 of 29 relief appearances he held opponents scoreless) but will have a couple of meltdown games where he's just brutal.
Exactly. And people aren't realizing that if he's not the closer, he can be taken out before those bad days become blow ups. Either way, our pen is much more solid today than it was yesterday.

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 06:23 PM
If people can't see this guy is the definition of the word suck, I don't know what they are smoking.
He really wasnt that bad.

As a reliever, Hermanson's season breaks down like this:

Hermanson first pitched in relief on August 4th.
He basically had 2 ****ing awful performances down the stretch, which while we should not ignore them, we should recognize the splits without those 2 performances:

Sept 23 HOU and Oct 2 @LA: 1 IP 8 ER 72.00 ERA
Every other time: 1.73 ERA
Hermanson K/9 as a reliever: 9.33
K/BB: 2.55
HR Rate: .67/9 IP (less than one per 9 IP is considered to be pretty good)


I am in full support of this signing as I think the bullpen was one of the most desperately important things that we needed to be addressed. We did not really overpay for him by all that much in my opinion. He is not like Mantei coming off surgery, which is why he could get more. Now we can worry about the rotation and the offense, but first things first and upgrading the bullpen was the first thing we needed to do.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 07:19 PM
Here's my problem with it: that money could have been applied to an impact player. I read that Clement has an offer from the Tribe 3/$18m. Why can't we pay that for crying out loud??? Seriously, we can find a young, cheap player to put up a 4.30 in the bullpen!
3 years 18 million? You read wrong. Wow did you read way wrong. That's not even remotely close. Maybe three months ago. No, not even then. Where did you think you read this?

chisoxmike
12-08-2004, 07:36 PM
They're too big to quote in the post, so I posted the link. Take them for what they're worth. It looks like this guy has back problems.

http://forecaster.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/chicagosports-sox/baseball/player.cgi?0482

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 08:11 PM
Boy do I love to hear that he is 'prone to getting walloped by the longball!'

Now, I consider myself an optimist ... and granted, last off season I admit I wasn't keen on the Uribe trade at all, but my god. This deal sucks tits. Why get this guy, when we can grab a Juan Rincon type for even LESS!?!?!

LOOK HARDER KW!

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 08:13 PM
I posted this in the Hermanson thread (the original one), but I think it's more relevent here:

As a reliever, Hermanson's season breaks down like this:

Hermanson first pitched in relief on August 4th.
He basically had 2 ****ing awful performances down the stretch, which while we should not ignore them, we should recognize the splits without those 2 performances:

Sept 23 HOU and Oct 2 @LA: 1 IP 8 ER 72.00 ERA
Every other time: 1.73 ERA
Hermanson K/9 as a reliever: 9.33
K/BB: 2.55
HR Rate: .67/9 IP (less than one per 9 IP is considered to be pretty good)


I am in full support of this signing as I think the bullpen was one of the most desperately important things that we needed to be addressed. We did not really overpay for him by all that much in my opinion. He is not like Mantei coming off surgery, which is why he could get more. Now we can worry about the rotation and the offense, but first things first and upgrading the bullpen was the first thing we needed to do.

Soxzilla
12-08-2004, 08:17 PM
I posted this in the Hermanson thread (the original one), but I think it's more relevent here:

As a reliever, Hermanson's season breaks down like this:

Hermanson first pitched in relief on August 4th.
He basically had 2 ****ing awful performances down the stretch, which while we should not ignore them, we should recognize the splits without those 2 performances:

Sept 23 HOU and Oct 2 @LA: 1 IP 8 ER 72.00 ERA
Every other time: 1.73 ERA
Hermanson K/9 as a reliever: 9.33
K/BB: 2.55
HR Rate: .67/9 IP (less than one per 9 IP is considered to be pretty good)


I am in full support of this signing as I think the bullpen was one of the most desperately important things that we needed to be addressed. We did not really overpay for him by all that much in my opinion. He is not like Mantei coming off surgery, which is why he could get more. Now we can worry about the rotation and the offense, but first things first and upgrading the bullpen was the first thing we needed to do.
Taking out his bad starts is just as legitimate as taking out his good starts, why do it, I mean ... Hemanson pitched that game he should be accountable for it. I personally would rather have a reliever, like Marte for instance, who spritzes 1 run innings maybe a bit more frequently than Hermanson, but is generally never touched up for 4+ run barrages. Think of that does to the team, not only for THAT game, but games after that. That puts quite a bit more pressure on the offense when they know this heap of junk pitcher can meltdown any moment ...

And with the way ozzie and cooper manager our bullpen, forgetaboutit. I'd bet money Hermanson suffers a 5.00+ ERA for the White Sox this year.

FightingBillini
12-08-2004, 08:21 PM
And with the way ozzie and cooper manager our bullpen, forgetaboutit. I'd bet money Hermanson suffers a 5.00+ ERA for the White Sox this year.
I have a feeling Ozzie will be considerably better with the bullpen next year. No matter how many people wanted to fire him in the middle of the season, there is still a learning curve as a manager.

JUribe1989
12-08-2004, 08:23 PM
I'm very happy with this signing. We needed to solidify the bullpen, and Hermanson's ERA is only so high because of a few bad outings. ERA is deceiving a lot of the time. Marte finished with a decent ERA, but as we know blew a lot of key games towards the end. STARTING WITH OPENING DAY!!!!!!

CubsfansareDRUNK
12-08-2004, 08:25 PM
awwwww man! this guy's crap!!!!!!!!!!!:(:
http://pics.forecaster.ca/std/gif.gifCURRENT STATUShttp://pics.forecaster.ca/std/gif.gifFree agenthttp://pics.forecaster.ca/std/gif.gifERAWLGGSCGShoSVIPHRERHRBBSO2004 4.536947180017131.013271661546102

SpartanSoxFan
12-08-2004, 08:28 PM
ERA: 4.53
W-L: 6-9

NICE JOB, KW!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Andy T Clown
12-08-2004, 08:28 PM
Kenny will trade Dustin Hermanson for Robbie or Sandy Alomar by the All Star break. That should be all we need to get in to the playoffs....again!:gulp:

Jabroni
12-08-2004, 08:35 PM
Well, he does have some cool lambchops... :whiner:

soxwon
12-08-2004, 08:37 PM
a totally excellent move from KW.

Dustin is a very good pitcher, along with marte n shingo, we have one of the best pens in the league.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 08:41 PM
a totally excellent move from KW.

Dustin is a very good pitcher, along with marte n shingo, we have one of the best pens in the league.
LOL, while I'm a fan of the move, I wouldn't go that far. In fact, I think Cliff Politte is a better pitcher than Hermanson, and Hermanson will wind up in middle relief, posting an era in the mid to upper 4's, while giving over a hundred innings. Still a very solid move, giving us an above average pen.

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 09:01 PM
ERA: 4.53
W-L: 6-9

Two stats, including one he doesnt have much control over, really tell the whole story about a player and should be all that's considered when evaluating a player.

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 09:05 PM
Taking out his bad starts is just as legitimate as taking out his good starts, why do it, I mean ... Hemanson pitched that game he should be accountable for it. I personally would rather have a reliever, like Marte for instance, who spritzes 1 run innings maybe a bit more frequently than Hermanson, but is generally never touched up for 4+ run barrages. Think of that does to the team, not only for THAT game, but games after that. That puts quite a bit more pressure on the offense when they know this heap of junk pitcher can meltdown any moment ...

And with the way ozzie and cooper manager our bullpen, forgetaboutit. I'd bet money Hermanson suffers a 5.00+ ERA for the White Sox this year.
Well I didn't take him out, I just made a split between those two performances. Obviously a 72 ERA in 2 outings sucks the big one, but I think it's importatant to note when there is an overall trend and then one or two outings that skew the ERA in one direction. I'd take a pitcher that pitches like a 3.00 ERA some of the time but has a total ERA of 3.75 bc of 2 awful outings over a pitcher that is consistantly 3.60.

Mohoney
12-08-2004, 09:26 PM
I posted this in the Hermanson thread (the original one), but I think it's more relevent here:

As a reliever, Hermanson's season breaks down like this:

Hermanson first pitched in relief on August 4th.
He basically had 2 ****ing awful performances down the stretch, which while we should not ignore them, we should recognize the splits without those 2 performances:

Sept 23 HOU and Oct 2 @LA: 1 IP 8 ER 72.00 ERA
Every other time: 1.73 ERA
Hermanson K/9 as a reliever: 9.33
K/BB: 2.55
HR Rate: .67/9 IP (less than one per 9 IP is considered to be pretty good)


I am in full support of this signing as I think the bullpen was one of the most desperately important things that we needed to be addressed. We did not really overpay for him by all that much in my opinion. He is not like Mantei coming off surgery, which is why he could get more. Now we can worry about the rotation and the offense, but first things first and upgrading the bullpen was the first thing we needed to do.
I agree with everything stated here. He's GOT to be better than Mike Jackson was last year. Or Jon Adkins.

Shingo, Marte, Hermanson, and Politte as the four late-inning guys sounds OK to me. I think that these guys will get the job done way more often than what our bullpen did last year. As long as Ozzie uses these guys for 1 inning stints and we get starting pitching help so these guys aren't overworked, I think this bullpen can be effective and strike people out.

Now maybe we can see if Kevin Walker can win a spot and get Adkins out of my life forever.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 09:33 PM
I agree with everything stated here. He's GOT to be better than Mike Jackson was last year. Or Jon Adkins..
For the money he's making he has to be much better than Adkins was last year and his track record says he won't be.

Realist
12-08-2004, 09:57 PM
When I first saw this thread I thought to myself, "Who?" After reading up on the guy a bit I now think it was a pretty good acquisition. We definitely can use the guy to fill one of the teams gaping holes, but 4000 views to this thread?? Hermanson either has a huge family that stumbled upon this website or we're all like a pack of starving dogs going after a piece of a hotdog that just hit the floor.

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 10:05 PM
For the money he's making he has to be much better than Adkins was last year and his track record says he won't be.
Adkins is utter garbage. Every time he was charged with keeping the game close so that the Sox would have a change, he'd let up a few runs here or there, effectively ending the Sox' chances of coming back. Hermanson was pretty reliable except in two games down the stretch, which was key, but in evaluating what he will probably do next year, not of critical importance. Hermanson was pretty good as a reliever this year and I expect the same to be true next year.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 10:21 PM
Adkins is utter garbage. Every time he was charged with keeping the game close so that the Sox would have a change, he'd let up a few runs here or there, effectively ending the Sox' chances of coming back. Hermanson was pretty reliable except in two games down the stretch, which was key, but in evaluating what he will probably do next year, not of critical importance. Hermanson was pretty good as a reliever this year and I expect the same to be true next year.
Take out Adkins 3 worst outings where he gave up 9er in an inning and his ERA was 3.39 in 61 innings.

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 10:24 PM
Take out Adkins 3 worst outings where he gave up 9er in an inning and his ERA was 3.39 in 61 innings.
Which is about double that of Hermanson....

Wealz
12-08-2004, 10:35 PM
Which is about double that of Hermanson....
Huh? If you take out Hermanson's 3 worst outings his ERA is 3.81.

Tragg
12-08-2004, 10:35 PM
Look over the list of FA middle relievers. It's a pretty unimpressive bunch. And for good reason. Middle relief is usually where you find the weakest pitchers. If they were any good, they'd be starting or closing. Compared with what's available, Hermanson is among the better ones.
I agree with that

Of course it begs the question - why spend precious resources on a middle reliever all of a sudden?

As the poster above said, a real pitcher like clement is only 6 million per year - this is 40% of that.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 11:20 PM
Huh? If you take out Hermanson's 3 worst outings his ERA is 3.81.
Not if you're looking at his stats as a reliever.
Aug & Sep he posted ERAs in the low 3s - those were the months he relieved. His 2 Oct outings had 1 decent and one horrible that raises the relief ERA about a run.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 11:31 PM
Why, did someone else pitch that day? If you exclude opening day last year, the Billy Goat was that awful. Its not fair to just throw out one outing to better fit your theory. That said, I have no problem with this signing.
If I were to tell you that we can sign an FA closer who will shut the other team down 9/10 times, but the 10th time he's going to give up 6 runs, would you say that player was good or bad? Well, stats that use averages would make him mediocre or bad.

You don't ignore them, but as someone said earlier, you should note the frequency of them and the performances of his other outings.

jake27
12-08-2004, 11:51 PM
im glad we made some kinf of signing. but i want more. i want a quality starter and/or RF. but this is a start...

SoxxoS
12-08-2004, 11:56 PM
I like the signing...and I agree with KARNO...

However...I titled a thread after we got Billy Koch that stated he had a 1.30 ERA against all teams in the American League other than Toronto and Oakland. And that didn't work out too well.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 11:59 PM
Not if you're looking at his stats as a reliever.
Aug & Sep he posted ERAs in the low 3s - those were the months he relieved. His 2 Oct outings had 1 decent and one horrible that raises the relief ERA about a run.
How many innings is that, 30? Spending $5.5M based on 30 innings is just absurd.

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 12:12 AM
Two stats, including one he doesnt have much control over, really tell the whole story about a player and should be all that's considered when evaluating a player.
Alright, which numbers SHOULD I use to judge how good he is???

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 12:20 AM
Not if you're looking at his stats as a reliever.
Aug & Sep he posted ERAs in the low 3s - those were the months he relieved. His 2 Oct outings had 1 decent and one horrible that raises the relief ERA about a run.I believe Judy Garland has an outstanding ERA before the 7th inning. That must make him a quality pitcher, also.

petekat
12-09-2004, 12:37 AM
saw this guy some last summer in SF. Doesn't have the stuff he had as a starter in MTL- surviving on guile- another DOug Jones?

SoxxoS
12-09-2004, 12:37 AM
I believe Judy Garland has an outstanding ERA before the 7th inning. That must make him a quality pitcher, also.
2 seperate things...as Jon's role is a starter when KARNO was comparing what he will be doing for the Sox (bullpen) to his SF stats.

Garland isn't changing anything. He's just Garland.

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 12:43 AM
I believe Judy Garland has an outstanding ERA before the 7th inning. That must make him a quality pitcher, also.http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/player/splits/2004/174783

Garland sucks! :mad:

WhiteSoxFan84
12-09-2004, 12:56 AM
Please drop the AT LEAST WE SIGNED SOMEONE line. It is just pathetic. Is that what you're going to say to a Cubs fan tells you, "Hey, we re-signed Nomar, Todd Walker, and are going after so and so", you're going to give them the powerful, "Yeh, well at least we signed somebody"? That'll work.

I'd prefer this comeback, "Yeh, well we signed your former starter (Clement) and we got Javier Vazquez, best rotation in the majors".

Mohoney
12-09-2004, 01:01 AM
Alright, which numbers SHOULD I use to judge how good he is???
I think I have one. When judging a bullpen pitcher, I think one thing really stands out and negates discrepancies in ERA caused by horrendous outings: scoreless outings.

Hermanson had 23 scoreless relief appearances out of 29 total.

Adkins had 31 scoreless relief appearances out of 50 total.

For Politte it was 38 out of 54, for Marte it was 57 out of 74, for Cotts it was out of 30 out of 55, and for Shingo it was 48 out of 59.

Put another way: opponents failed to score on Hermanson in 79% of his relief appearances, as opposed to 62% (yuck) for Adkins, 70% for Politte, 77% for Marte, 55% (another yuck) for Cotts, and (the only one higher than Hermanson) 81% for Shingo.

If you ask me, I think that comparing Hermanson to Adkins and Cotts constitutes "substantially better", and I think this signing is well worth the risk.

fusillirob1983
12-09-2004, 01:08 AM
I'd probably just ignore Cub fans if they bragged about resigning guys. It's not like they got anyone new. Walker was their worse 2nd baseman after Grudzielanek came back, too.

Neither team has made any great moves yet, so it doesn't even matter.

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 01:15 AM
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/player/splits/2004/174783

Garland sucks! :mad:
I know he does, hence my usage of the color teal in that post.

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 01:17 AM
If this guy is somewhere on the level of a Cliff Polite in terms of effectiveness in the pen, I guess we should be greatful.

santo=dorf
12-09-2004, 01:17 AM
I know he does, hence my usage of the color teal in that post.Well you didn't put the 7th inning part in teal. HIs 6th inning ERA is 5.64.

:jon
"I crapped my pants again!"

SpartanSoxFan
12-09-2004, 01:18 AM
I think I have one. When judging a bullpen pitcher, I think one thing really stands out and negates discrepancies in ERA caused by horrendous outings: scoreless outings.

Hermanson had 23 scoreless relief appearances out of 29 total.

Adkins had 31 scoreless relief appearances out of 50 total.

For Politte it was 38 out of 54, for Marte it was 57 out of 74, for Cotts it was out of 30 out of 55, and for Shingo it was 48 out of 59.

Put another way: opponents failed to score on Hermanson in 79% of his relief appearances, as opposed to 62% (yuck) for Adkins, 70% for Politte, 77% for Marte, 55% (another yuck) for Cotts, and (the only one higher than Hermanson) 81% for Shingo.

If you ask me, I think that comparing Hermanson to Adkins and Cotts constitutes "substantially better", and I think this signing is well worth the risk.
Shingo's stat is pretty impressive there. Before the All-Star break, I'm sure it was in the 90-95% range.

Mohoney
12-09-2004, 01:35 AM
Shingo's stat is pretty impressive there. Before the All-Star break, I'm sure it was in the 90-95% range.
And Hermanson is only 2 percentage points behind. At least Politte is at 70%, not too bad for a 4th option that was asked to be the 3rd option, and Marte was at 77% despite being dreadfully overworked.

Adkins and Cotts were horrible, but at least Cotts has an excuse. In all fairness, he should have been in AAA the past two years working on second and third pitches and starting. He was rushed in 2003 because we had no one else to use as a 5th starter, and instead of starting in AAA in 2004, he was asked to be the situational lefty in a patchwork attempt to piece together a bullpen.

I'm willing to give Cotts another year in the bullpen, but I'd rather go get a Rheal Cormier type to take Cotts' spot so he can start games in Charlotte, try to repair some of the damage inflicted on him by his lost development, and make a run at a starting job in 2006.

Munoz, Diaz, and Cotts should all be in Charlotte next year if we envision them as future starters. We shouldn't be handling our minor leaguers this way anymore, unless we see them as future relievers.

As for Adkins, just get him out of the organization as soon as possible.

JKryl
12-09-2004, 08:39 AM
Boy when Kenny said that we'd be flying under the Radar, I took that as meaning that we we're going to sneak up and get someone big... not Chase low flying Targets.... D'oh!
You should have known better Tek. Other than Kenny Lofton (spelling?), I can't remember another big name KW signed. Unless you consider Royce Clayton a big name. :wink:




White Sox baseball, every day is an adventure!

JKryl
12-09-2004, 08:44 AM
I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet (no I haven't read all 190 posts), but according to the Sun-Times today (12/9) Hermanson was signed as a setup man for Shingo. Hopefully this will give Marte a little rest, and allow Shingo to just come in for the kill. Of course, if they don't get another decent starter, it won't really matter.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 09:39 AM
I believe Judy Garland has an outstanding ERA before the 7th inning. That must make him a quality pitcher, also.
Sure, if you want you starters to only go 6 innings. :D:

The point on Hermanson is that as a starter he's been exceedingly mediocre to put it kindly. As a reliever, most outings he's been effective, and occasionally he gets shelled. The problem is that when you use stats like ERA one bad outing can skew and overwhelm a large number of excellent ones.

I posted this above, but repeating/rephrasing: If your closer goes out and pitches 8 straight 1-2-3 saves, then in the 9th one gives up 4 runs, his ERA will be a not too good 4. But you know what, I think I'd take that guy as a pretty good closer, especially at 2.5mil/yr.

I'm not saying Dustin's the answer, but he appears to be a solid reliever who can start if necessary. The question is: Who could you get at a lesser price that would be more effective? I don't think there's anyone out there.

akingamongstmen
12-09-2004, 11:43 AM
I just wanna know what day he'll be appearing at Soxfest. Man, I can't wait to buy my #32 Hermanson jersey.

We're brutal here. First we complain about the Sox doing nothing, then they do something, and we tear them to shreds for doing it. :D:

I guess we at least know that KW hasn't gone into hibernation for the winter. Here's to Hermanson posting a sub 4 era next year and this being only the first small move building up to a few big White Sox acquisitions. :gulp:Oh my God! A voice of reason at WSI!!!!!

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. A lot of people here just love to attack any and all things that the Sox do (or don't do). Hermanson could turn out to be a pretty good setup guy for us. Let's give him a chance before we start proclaiming this MINOR signing to be another in KW's long line of failures.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 05:08 PM
Given the option of having Jon (Gopher Ball) Adkins or Neil ( Mr. Base On Balls) Cotts as the first set up option, I'll take a shot with Hermanson.

Lip

TheBull19
12-10-2004, 02:39 AM
I would agree with that. <1mil is virtually free, and with no long-term commitment you could get a guy with huge upside. Of course, if your'e Mantei and you're going to be going at that rate, probably better to do it with a winning team where you can hopefully pump up your value better to hit the market again in '05.

I just don't think that Mantei's price implies that we overpaid for Hermanson.
I'd put Hermanson in the same class as Mike DeJean and Doug Brocail and they were signed for 1.15 and 1.00 mil a year - KW definitely overpaid here, but then again, the FA relievers available are getting fairly thin. Still I'd rather take a chance on Zimmerman or Shuey, who I guarantee will sign for less than 5.5/2. Still not feeling too good about the sox pen when the 3rd and 4th best guys we got are Politte and Hermanson - hopefully KW'll sign one of those guys to a minor league deal

tstrike2000
12-10-2004, 09:40 AM
Given the option of having Jon (Gopher Ball) Adkins or Neil ( Mr. Base On Balls) Cotts as the first set up option, I'll take a shot with Hermanson.

Lip
Yeah, can't say I disagree with that statement. I love the optimism a lot of Sox fans have when it comes to the last few years of Garland, Cotts, and a few of our other pitchers having an "upswing." The only upswing we've seen usually is the upper cut swings of opposing hitters hitting someone out of our pen's hanging curve ball. It's at the point we need to find people that have had success at the major league level. While Hermanson has had his problems too, he's had some success and has some experience behind him.