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Jurr
12-08-2004, 01:57 PM
I have been hearing all of the complaints about the Sox over the last week, especially since KW hasn't been making all of the moves that other teams have been making. Yes, there are some holes, but does the idea always have to be "add, add, and add some more"????

We do need to make a couple of moves to get things where we need them. We all know that the Sox need a set up guy for Shingo (or Damaso). We need a right fielder. But, do we need to get really nuts and make a paper champion?? I'm a little torn on this subject, and I wanted some of your opinions....

Let's see what we have.

Infield:
Right now, we are looking at Konerko, who can generate plenty of offense and can play the field proficiently. Gload is a capable player, and with an opportunity, he may be very solid. If you can absolutely project what he would put up in a season, you're a better man (or woman) than I. Could we give Paulie a DH spot and let Gload play the field?? As far as Frank goes, I am sitting here very concerned about the prospects of him playing at a high level ever again. He depends on his feet too much, and losing that foundation to injury scares me to death, so I'm not even including him in this assessment right now.
Joe Crede is a good defensive player, and his numbers weren't spectacular this season. He definitely deserves another year to let us see if he can turn it around offensively. Konerko was buried going into last season by a lot of fans on this site, and he turned it around. Can Joe?
Shortstop is set. I believe that Juan, with another season of seeing AL pitching, can be a consistent performer, and we know he can play the position like a champ. A second basemen would be good to get (Cairo?), but does Willie have a shot at being good? Last year was his first with consistent playing time. With more time, could he be a serviceable second basemen? Every team has question marks, and we are no different.

Outfield: Rowand got his chance and ran with it. After so many people said the last few years that Rowand would never be more than a AAA player, he stepped up and shut alot of mouths. It's easy to discount a player as crap if they've never produced, but sometimes it clicks, and then they become good. (Could this happen to Willie Harris?)
Carlos Lee can still carry an offense at times, and he can play a good LF. The question mark is in right, and I would really like to see if Carl Everett can play that position. Remember, when Carl was healthy just two seasons ago, he was an All Star outfielder for the Rangers. Maybe he can do this for the Sox. If not, we may possibly get Dye to take that spot. Don't forget about Timo, either. I think he's a good backup and did some great things for the Sox last year.

Pitching: Garcia, Buehrle, and Contreras are solid, and Garland is still an enigma. I'm overtaken with the feeling that he will be traded this offseason, but we'll see. Who knows..if Loaiza can suddenly figure baseball out, maybe Garland will, too. As far as the fifth guy goes, there's not too many teams I know of that have a great ballplayer in that fifth slot. You want to win one out of every two games your 5th guy pitches. We should get SOMEONE to fill that role. No Leiber, no Clement, no Wright, and no other guy that's making 7+ mil a year is going to be a fifth starter for the Sox (and I don't know many other teams that have a fifth guy making that much.) So, we should end up getting someone serviceable enough to get us that elusive win out of the fifth slot.
The bullpen has some question marks, but I truly believe that Cotts and Adkins are going to be solid this year. They learned a ton on the job last season, and they can take that learning experience and do something with it. I know that the first handful of times I ever worked on a patient, I didn't know what the hell I was doing, and I damn sure didn't do the procedures as well as an established professional with experience. That's about where Adkins and Cotts were last year--getting experience. Combine those two with Politte, Marte, and Shingo, and we have a good pen. Yes, we do need one more guy to tie it all together, and I'm confident we can at least afford that guy......

The thing is, folks, I'm not totally convinced of anything with this ballclub yet, and I'm not a big enough expert to know for certain that this team is a WS contender or a last place team. There's too many confounding variables:

1. Does the team catch stride with Ozzie gaining experience and come out of nowhere to contend? Who can say?? Florida and Anaheim did it with rosters that many would consider suspect. You just don't know what kind of year any player is going to have outside of a couple. If everyone knew exactly who was going to break out and be a good (or great) player, then baseball would be a pretty boring sport and fantasy baseball would be a breeze. We just don't know if Willie, Joe, and others will produce. If they do, this team could be great. If not, well, that sucks.

2. If the team is pretty decent this year and gets to the break with a shot, we could end up getting some help (por ejemplo: what if SF tanks and unloads Vizquel to us at the break....or we get someone 10 times better?? Who knows??) I would have never thought we'd get Garcia last year. As far as I knew (from this site), the Sox had so many holes going into last season that being at or near first place at the break was a joke!!

The point is, we don't know a DAMN THING about what this team is going to end up being. Adding 30 million dollars in payroll may not win you a damn game. Ask the Dodgers of the late 90's-early 00's. You don't know how those players will fit in, what they will do, etc. I don't give a damn if Adrian Beltre hit 49 homers...is he going to do that in another city? Is Troy Percival going to pitch great next year because he did 2 years ago? No...we can't project that kind of situation.

The Sox aren't a paper champion this year. Not by any stretch. They have players that aren't proven at a few spots. Will they become proven next year? If you know, then you're a friggin' genius. I sure don't. So, in conclusion, I think it is best to sit and watch and keep my amateur opinion of what the team is going to do next year based on who they have or don't have to myself.

They may be the world champs before the 2005 season's over. The Marlins lost to the Red Sox in interleague play by 15 runs or so in one game. They were a joke...a team full of holes, unproven players, and no chance. They ended up champs. We don't know what the Sox are going to do, but I can't wait until April of '05 to see what happens. Go Sox.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 02:03 PM
I still have optimism.

I like our outfield picture. CLee and Crash give excellent production. I wouldn't mind Dino-boy platooning with a right-handed hitting outfielder in right.

I think the infield will be fine too. Willie gives speed and defense at second. Perhaps he can platoon with a righthanded pickup like Miguel Cairo. Paulie gives big production. Uribe is an emerging star. The wild card here is Crede, but I'd settle for .260 25hr 80rbis.

The real problem I see is pitching. I'd trade Garland for an established reliever, and then sign two starters. I'd like those guys to be Clement and Pavano, but realistically, I'd settle for two established, cheaper guys to fill out the bottom of the rotation.

We won't be world-beaters, but we'll certainly compete for the division championship.

edit: And please, NO TO GLOAD IN THE OUTFIELD. His outfield defense is worse than CLee's back when we called him the butcher.

chisoxt
12-08-2004, 02:10 PM
The point is, we don't know a DAMN THING about what this team is going to end up being.
Based upon past experience, yes we do. And we also know that the Twins are going to be good again, and that the Tigers have improved their club. The Inidans figure to be better as well.

As far as your analysis goes, you and other people that try to examine the team position by position always seem to do so in a vaccum, that is, you don't compare each position with the other teams. If you did the same analysis with the Twins team, position by position, you may be whistling another tune.

longshot7
12-08-2004, 02:12 PM
In response to the title of this thread: Simply, YES.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 02:16 PM
If you did the same analysis with the Twins team, position by position, you may be whistling another tune.
Doubtful. This team has always looked better on paper than the Twins. Perhaps its time we tried something different.

:reinsy
"Like less spending? I like it!"

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 02:26 PM
Not anymore it isn't! Now that we've got Dustin Hermanson we're World Series bound. :D:

I_Liked_Manuel
12-08-2004, 02:31 PM
besides not having to ever see mike jackson again, this bullpen hasn't improved one bit. that's what killed us the most last year.

Jurr
12-08-2004, 02:32 PM
Based upon past experience, yes we do. And we also know that the Twins are going to be good again, and that the Tigers have improved their club. The Inidans figure to be better as well.

As far as your analysis goes, you and other people that try to examine the team position by position always seem to do so in a vaccum, that is, you don't compare each position with the other teams. If you did the same analysis with the Twins team, position by position, you may be whistling another tune.
I do welcome the debate, and you make a point, but..............by your logic, the Yankees and Marlins should've been playing in the world series last year, Carolina and New England shouldn't have been in a super bowl last year, and the Red Sox should not have come back from 0-3. Every team every season is different. Yes, sometimes trends do repeat, but they're under different circumstances. We don't know if the Sox would've stayed hot with Maggs and Frank continuously in the lineup. They didn't in 03, but who's to say that wouldn't have stayed hot in '04?? You can't judge what a team is going to do based on last year or an addition here or there. If that was the case, we should've been playoff bound from '01-'03. We weren't because certain things took place. Chemistry wasn't there. Belief in the manager wasn't there. It goes on and on.

Jurr
12-08-2004, 02:34 PM
besides not having to ever see mike jackson again, this bullpen hasn't improved one bit. that's what killed us the most last year.Could the bullpen not improve just by having the same players get more experience? That's what I'm getting at. Could Adkins and Cotts not become more consistent because they have more of an idea of what they're doing on the mound? I agree...yes, they do need to add one more guy in this part of the team, but don't underestimate these young guys. You don't know.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 02:42 PM
Could the bullpen not improve just by having the same players get more experience? That's what I'm getting at. Could Adkins and Cotts not become more consistent because they have more of an idea of what they're doing on the mound? I agree...yes, they do need to add one more guy in this part of the team, but don't underestimate these young guys. You don't know.No. Anybody we have is crap and can't possibly get any better. They had their one year. If they haven't won the ROY, we need to replace them.

CubKilla
12-08-2004, 02:44 PM
In response to the title of this thread: Simply, YES.
Agreed. The White Sox, as of right now, are a .500 team.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
Agreed. The White Sox, as of right now, are a .500 team.
I hadn't realized the 2005 season had already been played.

Unless you were referring to the 0-0 mark that every team has right now.

Jurr
12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
Agreed. The White Sox, as of right now, are a .500 team.Damn.....you should be writing for the sporting news as the head prognosticator.
That's a ton of insight. One, just by looking at a roster, can immediately determine the fate of a ballclub!! Also, can I get your bracket picks for March right now?? I want to get a head start on the pool.

PaulDrake
12-08-2004, 04:35 PM
Damn.....you should be writing for the sporting news as the head prognosticator.
That's a ton of insight. One, just by looking at a roster, can immediately determine the fate of a ballclub!! Also, can I get your bracket picks for March right now?? I want to get a head start on the pool. They still have to play the games, but all things considered there is absolutely nothing to be excited about. I could easily see Cleveland and Detroit passing us next year.

SomebodyToldMe
12-08-2004, 04:45 PM
Not anymore it isn't! Now that we've got Dustin Hermanson we're World Series bound. :D:
Why does everyone forget about Walker!? HE'S why we're World Series bound!

Whitesoxtom
12-08-2004, 07:05 PM
Yes, this team is that bad. We have gaping holes in RF, C, 2B. A questionable 3B, though I'm not ready to give up on Crede. Crede could end up having a very good year. We have no 5th starter. We saw what happened last year when we didn't have a 5th starter.

We have already upgraded our bullpen. Hermanson was a nice pickup if he stays in the pen and is not our closer. He was avery bad closer in SF.
I still think 4th place is a real possiblity. I hope I'm wrong.

voodoochile
12-08-2004, 07:15 PM
Bad? Like 65 wins bad? No, but a LOT of people are going to have to step up if this team is going to be anything more than a .500 club or a ALC contender.

I did admire the way the opening post managed to talk about possibilities at so many positions (Uribe may improve offensively, Crede may also, Everett may be healthy and have a good season) but only Harris was listed as a question mark. That doesn't even include the 5th starter situation at present.

There are a LOT of question marks on this team and accurately enough, the biggest one is what will Frank do? Can he put up all-star caliber numbers, or is he due for a down year?

I want to believe, but this window is closed. The loss of Magglio and the uncertainty surrounding Frank means this team will have to massively overachieve to make the playoffs as it is currently configured, IMO.

I truly hope I am wrong, but at present, I feel as unenthusiatic about a coming Sox season as I have felt since 1998.

Jurr
12-08-2004, 07:20 PM
I believe that anybody that gets up to the pro level has the POTENTIAL to be a very good player. Will they be? We just don't know. I've seen players like Beltre or Guillen in Detroit come out of nowhere and become great ballplayers. I saw a lot of Sox fans get really bummed about having some unproven guy like Loaiza come on and get in the fifth starter spot. He was a question mark. Center field was a big question mark for us last year, and someone took care of that question mark.

We could be a very good team or a very bad team. I'm not sure. I do not believe in being a paper champ. Show me on the field. And, that goes vice versa. I will not sit and get pissed at the condition of this team until April comes and I see a collapse. Until then, I refuse to say for sure that this is a BAD team.

OEO Magglio
12-08-2004, 07:21 PM
Yes, this team is that bad. We have gaping holes in RF, C, 2B. A questionable 3B, though I'm not ready to give up on Crede. Crede could end up having a very good year. We have no 5th starter. We saw what happened last year when we didn't have a 5th starter.

We have already upgraded our bullpen. Hermanson was a nice pickup if he stays in the pen and is not our closer. He was avery bad closer in SF.
I still think 4th place is a real possiblity. I hope I'm wrong.
:?: He was 17 for 20 in save opps last year.

Whitesoxtom
12-08-2004, 09:10 PM
He may have been 17 of 20, but did you look at his stats? Hardly a closer, but a good middle guy. Anything is better than Mike Jackson.

SpartanSoxFan
12-08-2004, 09:32 PM
In response to the title of this thread: Simply, YES.
AMEN. Lock the thread.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 09:34 PM
He may have been 17 of 20, but did you look at his stats? Hardly a closer, but a good middle guy. Anything is better than Mike Jackson.
Have you looked up the stats? His ERA was indicative of one really bad outing (which for some reason everyone wants to focus on, not the fact that this guy was a successful closer somewhere else and only fits as a setup guy at best here).

RKMeibalane
12-08-2004, 10:02 PM
Yes, the Sox really are that bad.

MRKARNO
12-08-2004, 10:08 PM
I heard the same talk last year and once again we were in the race for the division title for the first half at least. I'm going to give KW the benefit of the FA period and of the doubt. If Thomas is healthy and when all the FA signings are factored in, I dont see why this team cant win 90 games or more. Obviously it doesnt look that way now, but we're talking about an incomplete team here. As the team is today, I would say we're about a .500 team, maybe a tad better, but KW isn't done with FAs.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 10:26 PM
Have you looked up the stats? His ERA was indicative of one really bad outing (which for some reason everyone wants to focus on, not the fact that this guy was a successful closer somewhere else and only fits as a setup guy at best here).
His career NL ERA in 1,200+ innings is indicative of a long next couple of years.

cornball
12-08-2004, 10:32 PM
I believe that anybody that gets up to the pro level has the POTENTIAL to be a very good player. Will they be? We just don't know. I've seen players like Beltre or Guillen in Detroit come out of nowhere and become great ballplayers. I saw a lot of Sox fans get really bummed about having some unproven guy like Loaiza come on and get in the fifth starter spot. He was a question mark. Center field was a big question mark for us last year, and someone took care of that question mark.

We could be a very good team or a very bad team. I'm not sure. I do not believe in being a paper champ. Show me on the field. And, that goes vice versa. I will not sit and get pissed at the condition of this team until April comes and I see a collapse. Until then, I refuse to say for sure that this is a BAD team.
The bottom line is this: Is this organization commited to winning?

This team is only barely over .500 due to the division. The other teams in the division have improved. The Sox outfield for next year as it stands now has limited range, the infield defense on the left side at this time is questionable, you saw what happened with the lack of a 5th starter, the offense is based on the long ball and limited walks, very little speed (Harris doesn't know how to use it when he does get on base), the pen is shakey and the team strikes out alot.

Is it hopeless? No, but if your on a limited budget (as we are) with no help this year from the farm, you need to improve through other means. The Twins have been successful because of their farm, they develop players, with success at the MLB level, thus keeping payroll down. We don't, not even the players traded have produced much in the bigs. So the cry is to increase payroll to be competitve NOW, until you can get relief from home grown players. Unfortunately, the organization does not want too and fans are pissed. There are no excuses. Top FA see the lack of commitment and want to play for a winner, especially since most of them are in their 30's. Ownership needs to show they want to win and it will happen......we can only pray at this point.

jabrch
12-08-2004, 10:34 PM
Yeah, they lost 100 games in 2005. Don't worry about it - the experts here said so.

A. Cavatica
12-08-2004, 10:38 PM
And I'm sick of White Sox apologists who try to rationalize the team as having a chance to be good, instead of seeing it for what it is: a team with an equal chance of bad. Very bad. :angry:

I'm convinced most Sox fans wouldn't know a good team if it bit them in the mule. When was the last time we won a playoff series? When was the last time we won a playoff GAME? This team is nowhere near as talented as the 1993 or 1983 Sox, and they didn't even win the pennant.

As an academic exercise, let's compare the projected 2005 Sox to the 2004 world champions -- who, incidentally, needed a great run of luck to squeak by the Yankees into the Series. Hopefully, this will show you just how far we are from being a legitimate contender.

For starters, Schilling and Martinez are unquestionably better than Garcia and Buehrle. Lowe and Wakefield are better than Garland and Contreras. And Arroyo is way better than Grilli. Boston wins hands down.

Relievers? It's a push. Gotta go with Foulke over Shingo and Timlin over Hermanson, but I'll take Marte over Embree, and I think Cotts will improve.

The top two spots in the order are 2B Willie Harris and CF Aaron Rowand for us, CF Johnny Damon and 2B Mark Bellhorn for the Red Sox. The Red Sox tandem gets on base more and has considerably more power. We have better defense. I'll take Rowand over Damon, Bellhorn over Harris.

Next come the left fielders: Carlos Lee and Manny Ramirez. Caballo has made himself into a decent fielder, which Manny hasn't, but come on: Ramirez is far and away the better hitter.

Next come the designated hitters. We have a future Hall of Famer; Boston has Big Papi in a career year. If Thomas is healthy, it's a fair fight. But Thomas is not healthy, and may never be fully healthy again. I think he's done putting up years like the one David Ortiz just had.

Paul Konerko in 2005 should outperform Kevin Millar 2004, but I don't feel completely confident, given Konerko's history of disappearing for months at a time. Still, this is a clear White Sox advantage.

Since both managers juggle the remaining lineup positions, we'll go by position. Jason Varitek at catcher is as big an upgrade over Ben Davis as Konerko was over Millar. So is 3B Bill Mueller over Joe Crede. RF Trot Nixon vs. Carl Everett (neither one healthy) is a push. And I think Orlando Cabrera is a slight upgrade over Juan Uribe, though I like Uribe.

Now look at the bench. Boston's was topnotch (Mirabelli, Mientkiewicz, Reese, Youkilis, Kapler). Ours was just OK.

Final score? Boston wins @ 5 starting rotation spots, 6 lineup spots, and reserves. Chicago wins at 2 lineup spots.

Hmmm.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 10:44 PM
instead of seeing it for what it is: a team with an equal chance of bad. Very bad. :angry:

I don't believe that's true. In fact, I can't even remember the last season that that statement was remotely true.

Most fans would see that as a good thing. But the perfectionists around here want either a devistatingly dominant team, or a horribly uncompetitive rebuilding project. You know what that makes you guys. Jerry Krause.

Wealz
12-08-2004, 10:49 PM
I don't believe that's true. In fact, I can't even remember the last season that that statement was remotely true.

Most fans would see that as a good thing. But the perfectionists around here want either a devistatingly dominant team, or a horribly uncompetitive rebuilding project. You know what that makes you guys. Jerry Krause.
Jerry Krause has 6 rings.

The Sox are further away from a World Series today than they were when Williams took office.

kittle42
12-08-2004, 11:08 PM
Yeah, they lost 100 games in 2005. Don't worry about it - the experts here said so.
80, 100. What's the difference...they'll both get you absolutely nowhere.

kittle42
12-08-2004, 11:14 PM
You know, we're all gonna have hope when the season starts, just like fans of every team will (hell, remember the Brewers' first half last year?) - but you know what? There's no harm in looking at the many, many holes on the team, criticizing management for doing little about it, and being realistic (which, unfortunately for Sox (and Chicago fans generally) means being a doomsday prophesizer).

A good bunch of us are somewhat like the Randy Quaid character in Major League 2...unfortunately, the Sox seem to be far from doing what the faux Indians did to change our spirits.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 11:19 AM
Kittle:

Remember to the **** all that matters is the size of the organization's profits. Screw the fans, screw the city and state that bought them a stadium and gave them a sweetheart lease. Remember they have no moral or legal obligation what so ever.

The dumbing down of Sox fans continues.

Lip

jabrch
12-09-2004, 11:22 AM
80, 100. What's the difference...they'll both get you absolutely nowhere.


Do you enjoy baseball at all?

doublem23
12-09-2004, 11:24 AM
Do you enjoy baseball at all?
Do you enjoy .500 baseball?

voodoochile
12-09-2004, 11:28 AM
Do you enjoy .500 baseball?
Yes, he does. In fact he has said so many times. He enjoys watching baseball period and doesn't sweat big picture issues, prefering to live in the now as each individual moment (game) of a baseball season unfolds and if at the end, it adds up to something great (playoffs) it is a bonus.

I agree to some extent in that watching a baseball game is fun, but prefer to think the Sox have a chance going into every season rather than cross my fingers and hope for the best.