PDA

View Full Version : Boras: Sox had all med. records, never made serious offer


mweflen
12-08-2004, 10:29 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox08.html

Looks like KW is trying to take the high road - "We will always remember Magglio" and the like.

Boras, on the other hand, claims the Sox were never serious (apparently 5/$70 is not serious), and that they had all relevant records.

Let the post-breakup pissing contest begin!

The other gem in this article: Maggs could play today, so actually the December "workout" session is completely unneccessary. Anything smell fishy?

nitetrain8601
12-08-2004, 10:32 AM
riiiiiiiiiight. You know, I never had a problem with Boras til now. He's a complete jagoff.

Jjav829
12-08-2004, 10:33 AM
Boras said that Ordonez's open workout, scheduled to take place this week in conjunction with the winter meetings in Anaheim, Calif., is no longer necessary and that all teams with a legitimate interest in signing Ordonez have been given all applicable medical records.
Am I reading this right? Is Boras saying that Magglio won't be working out this weekend? Or is he just saying it isn't necessary even though it will happen? I read it as the former. If that's the truth, and Maggs won't be working out for teams this weekend, this sounds suspicious. After saying that Magglio would be ready for Spring Training if it started today, he now cancels Maggs workout. That makes it sound like he isn't ready.

munchman33
12-08-2004, 10:33 AM
Well, Magglio had a chance to leave with a little class. Instead, Boras is making him look like the jagoff we all suspected he was.

soxfan26
12-08-2004, 10:37 AM
"Stay tuned for scenes from the upcoming As the world turns..."

Justafan
12-08-2004, 10:38 AM
Well, Magglio had a chance to leave with a little class. Instead, Boras is making him look like the jagoff we all suspected he was.
Do you work for the Sox? All you do is defend JR and act as if he is Santa. The facts about what happened in this deal will come out when Magglio talks. To sit here and think the Sox were "pissed" on by Ordonez, when most of us know it was probably the opposite is a joke.

mweflen
12-08-2004, 10:38 AM
Am I reading this right? Is Boras saying that Magglio won't be working out this weekend?
That's definitely the way I took it. So now it seems that not only do the Sox not get to examine this purported $14-16mm player, but no one else does, either.

Frankly, I hope he is done for his career or produces at a lower level, and someone else gets stuck with a 5 year, $75mm deal for a .280/15/80 hitter with no speed. And if it were the Cubs, all the better :wink:

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 10:38 AM
Mysterious surgery.....no evaluation allowed.....no exam of any kind until the "december workout".....December workout then cancelled as "unnecessary"......Is anyone going to be surprised when we hear that Magglio may show up late to ST "because he's still rounding into shape"?

The more I hear from Boras, the more I think this is a desperate attempt to get some fool owner to give ANY kind of contract to Maggs because that knee is in really bad shape. It likely won't work, but if the alternative is to tell everyone "hey, my career may be over, but sign me anyway", maybe this is their best alternative.

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2004, 10:39 AM
Do you work for the Sox? All you do is defend JR and act as if he is Santa.
Santa doesn't exist, JR does. :redneck

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 10:40 AM
Do you work for the Sox? All you do is defend JR and act as if he is Santa. The facts about what happened in this deal will come out when Magglio talks. To sit here and think the Sox were "pissed" on by Ordonez, when most of us know it was probably the opposite is a joke.
yes, because Magglio is the guy who will certainly tell the truth....I mean he's been so open and honest throughout this process, why wouldn't he?

Jerko
12-08-2004, 10:43 AM
If I were KW, it would take a lot more than medical records for me as a GM to pay millions to a guy who I HAVEN'T SEEN PLAY SINCE JULY, and not at full strength since May. It's obvious he's still hurt if his weekend workout session is cancelled.

soxfan26
12-08-2004, 10:45 AM
Am I reading this right? Is Boras saying that Magglio won't be working out this weekend? Or is he just saying it isn't necessary even though it will happen? I read it as the former. If that's the truth, and Maggs won't be working out for teams this weekend, this sounds suspicious. After saying that Magglio would be ready for Spring Training if it started today, he now cancels Maggs workout. That makes it sound like he isn't ready.Boras is defininately changing his tune. Here is another great nugget:

"The doctors' statements are that Magglio is ready now and will be absolutely ready by spring training,'' Boras said.So is he ready now, or will he be ready by Spring Training? Is there a difference between "ready" and "absolutely ready"?

Justafan
12-08-2004, 10:47 AM
Boras is slime, I will never dispute that. But if Magglio was given the info on doctors to see by KW and then KW says we were never given access to the information, who is lying here?

munchman33
12-08-2004, 10:48 AM
Do you work for the Sox? All you do is defend JR and act as if he is Santa. The facts about what happened in this deal will come out when Magglio talks. To sit here and think the Sox were "pissed" on by Ordonez, when most of us know it was probably the opposite is a joke.
The money offered Magglio was reported and documented by several media outlets. Yet Boras claims the sox were never serious players. RIGHT.

And now Boras wants to claim, for the first time (even though the sox have insisted they had nothing for months), that they had been given the sox full medical reports. RIGHT.

But you know what....even if they did give the sox medical records, they were from Boras' in pocket doctors. Why would the sox, or any other team for that matter, make a financial committment without having their people look at him? I'm sorry, but if you don't understand that, you're just plain slow. Or really bad with money.

Boras and Magglio had two options after the arbitration deadline. Let it die, or drag it on like a couple of jerks. We see which path they took.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 10:48 AM
Boras is defininately changing his tune. Here is another great nugget:

So is he ready now, or will he be ready by Spring Training? Is there a difference between "ready" and "absolutely ready"?
In other news, Boras announced that his wife is "a little bit pregnant" and has confirmed that Abraham Lincoln is "dead, and by ST will be absolutely dead".

Dolanski
12-08-2004, 10:48 AM
Mysterious surgery.....no evaluation allowed.....no exam of any kind until the "december workout".....December workout then cancelled as "unnecessary"......Is anyone going to be surprised when we hear that Magglio may show up late to ST "because he's still rounding into shape"?

The more I hear from Boras, the more I think this is a desperate attempt to get some fool owner to give ANY kind of contract to Maggs because that knee is in really bad shape. It likely won't work, but if the alternative is to tell everyone "hey, my career may be over, but sign me anyway", maybe this is their best alternative.
Fool Owner? Magglio Ordonez, your Texas Ranger's starting RF!

Mickster
12-08-2004, 10:51 AM
Boras is slime, I will never dispute that. But if Magglio was given the info on doctors to see by KW and then KW says we were never given access to the information, who is lying here?
What??? :?: Magglio was given the info on what doctors to see and I am certain that KW did not name "Dr. X" in Vienna, Austria as a "doctor to see"....

eshunn2001
12-08-2004, 10:55 AM
Boras is slime, I will never dispute that. But if Magglio was given the info on doctors to see by KW and then KW says we were never given access to the information, who is lying here?
Didn't KW say that, Broas and Ordonez would not let OUR doctors look at the knee? I do not remember them saying they did not have any records. Just asking

Justafan
12-08-2004, 10:58 AM
Didn't KW say that, Broas and Ordonez would not let OUR doctors look at the knee? I do not remember them saying they did not have any records. Just asking
From Scott Boras in that article:


"It is important to note, No. 1, the name of the surgeon was given to Magglio from the staff of the White Sox,'' Boras said. "But I was not representing him at the time. The White Sox gave him the name of that doctor, and he went to Austria in the hope that he can find out what was wrong with the knee, and he did.


DOH!!!!!

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2004, 11:02 AM
JR is cheap and stupid. KW is in over his head.

But Boras is Boras. He can't be trusted. It is clear they have something to hide.

Best case scenario: Boras is telling the truth. Maggs still had two surgeries on the same knee in less than a year. If the money was yours, would you guarantee multimillions to Maggs?

Why even bother to list a worst-case scenario? Even under the best circumstances, JR would be a fool to take that kind of gamble. Even JR is not that stupid.

JR and KW are right to not offer Maggs dime one unless Sox doctors can examine Maggs' knee.

I wish Maggs the best...

eshunn2001
12-08-2004, 11:05 AM
From Scott Boras in that article:


"It is important to note, No. 1, the name of the surgeon was given to Magglio from the staff of the White Sox,'' Boras said. "But I was not representing him at the time. The White Sox gave him the name of that doctor, and he went to Austria in the hope that he can find out what was wrong with the knee, and he did.


DOH!!!!!
That still is not our doctors. And who knows it that is even true to begin with.

Jurr
12-08-2004, 11:07 AM
I don't believe a word that Boras is saying about any of this.......he's a notorious swindler. Look no further than the A-Rod situation...

He finds out that the top offer for Rodriguez is around 16-17 mil per year. Many teams had bailed on even that price, saying it was too steep. Boras has a taker in Texas, and decides to milk it for even more money. So, in his honest fashion, Boras tells Hicks that Texas is in danger of losing out to one of two other teams that is offering substantially more money, when nobody else was in the running. Texas ends up in a bidding war with itself, and gets suckered into a 25 million dollar per year contract.

If this isn't a clear indication that Boras looks out for his bottom line, nothing is. The Sox haven't always had the best reputation as far as contract offering and what not, but I truly believe that Boras is trying his best to make Maggs look very attractive to teams despite the fact that Magglio isn't in the best of situations from a health standpoint.

If I were Magglio, and I had a very uncertain future, I'd want a guy like this to represent me, as well. He'll probably get a big offer from some team that has no idea what's going on with that knee.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 11:09 AM
That still is not our doctors. And who knows it that is even true to begin with.

LOL. The Sox give Magglio the name of the doctor they would like him to see and they claim foul on Ordonez for not letting them examine him. Seems to me they could easily get a full report from the doctor they referred him to, no?


:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
" We have no knowledge of any such Doctor. KW, throw away the rolodex".

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2004, 11:11 AM
From Scott Boras in that article:


"It is important to note, No. 1, the name of the surgeon was given to Magglio from the staff of the White Sox,'' Boras said. "But I was not representing him at the time. The White Sox gave him the name of that doctor, and he went to Austria in the hope that he can find out what was wrong with the knee, and he did.


DOH!!!!!

Do you trust Scott Boras? I don't.

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2004, 11:12 AM
If Scott Boras were a weather forecaster and he said it would be sunny and warm today, I'd make certain to bring my umbrella and rain coat.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 11:13 AM
LOL. The Sox give Magglio the name of the doctor they would like him to see and they claim foul on Ordonez for not letting them examine him. Seems to me they could easily get a full report from the doctor they referred him to, no?


:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
" We have no knowledge of any such Doctor. KW, throw away the rolodex".So your claim is that the Sox know exactly what's going on with Maggs knee, but are trying to get out of making him an offer but minimize the PR impact by claiming ignorance?

That could be plausible (except that they made him a pretty good offer in-season), but your theory would also require you to beleive that in the name of minimizing the PR impact, they're willing to forgo 2 high picks since they didn't offer him arbitration. There's no way they do that.

The fact of the arb situation tells you that they do not know what's going on with his knee, or that they do know and it's bad enough not to warrant a minimum of $11mil in 2005. That in turn tells you that Bora$ isn't being 100% honest here.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 11:15 AM
Again, I will wait for Magglio to talk. That said, if it comes out that the Sox indeed could have gotten the info they needed and lied about it, he can hang a for sale sign right outside USCF.

eshunn2001
12-08-2004, 11:18 AM
Again, I will wait for Magglio to talk. That said, if it comes out that the Sox indeed could have gotten the info they needed and lied about it, he can hang a for sale sign right outside USCF.If we had all the information we needed and did not at least offer arbitration, KW and JR should be dragged in the street and shot.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 11:20 AM
If we had all the information we needed and did not at least offer arbitration, KW and JR should be dragged in the street and shot.
Violence? No. Being exposed as liars and losing 50% of the fan base, yes.

mweflen
12-08-2004, 11:22 AM
Yeah, I could see the theory that the Sox had info but didn't want to pony up, so claimed ignorance for PR purposes, but I can't see them turning down 2 draft picks. Everyone here knows how much the Sox like to rely on cheap, young, unproven talent.

rdivaldi
12-08-2004, 11:29 AM
Do you trust Scott Boras? I don't.
Justafan will believe anyone who says anything anti-Sox.

Borass screwed the Sox, pretty simple to see if you actually open your mind ot the obvious.

rdivaldi
12-08-2004, 11:30 AM
Yeah, I could see the theory that the Sox had info but didn't want to pony up, so claimed ignorance for PR purposes, but I can't see them turning down 2 draft picks.Nah, that makes too much sense. Better to believe Borass...

kittle42
12-08-2004, 11:39 AM
Boras is slime, I will never dispute that. But if Magglio was given the info on doctors to see by KW and then KW says we were never given access to the information, who is lying here?
Both sides, as always, are lying.

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2004, 11:41 AM
If we had all the information we needed and did not at least offer arbitration, KW and JR should be dragged in the street and shot.

OK. Let's assume for a minute that pigs fly and Scott Boras is telling the truth. Say the Sox do have all the information but are cheap. Why would they decline to offer arbitration and forfeit the draft picks?

If Boras is telling the truth and the Sox do have all the information, then Maggs' knee must really be in bad shape even after two surgeries.

Couple that with Boras cancelling Maggs' workout, and I think it is very likely that Maggs is quite hurt and may not ever regain his form. Is such a player - perhaps not unlike post-injury Bo Jackson - worth $11 million or more per year?

Either way the Sox are being smart by not attempting to re-sign Maggs.

jabrch
12-08-2004, 11:45 AM
LOL. The Sox give Magglio the name of the doctor they would like him to see and they claim foul on Ordonez for not letting them examine him. Seems to me they could easily get a full report from the doctor they referred him to, no?


:reinsy (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
" We have no knowledge of any such Doctor. KW, throw away the rolodex".
NO

A doctor can't just hand over patient records. And anyhow, just looking at the results of the surgery a few months ago means NOTHING. The only thing good enough would be to see him NOW and to physically examine him.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 11:49 AM
NO

A doctor can't just hand over patient records. And anyhow, just looking at the results of the surgery a few months ago means NOTHING. The only thing good enough would be to see him NOW and to physically examine him.
That's a good point jabrch. Records post-surgery would show nothing that would tell you whether a degenerative condition has progressed or been halted. Onlytime-lapse type of records or at least something a few months after the surgery would show that.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 11:52 AM
OK. Let's assume for a minute that pigs fly and Scott Boras is telling the truth. Say the Sox do have all the information but are cheap. Why would they decline to offer arbitration and forfeit the draft picks?

If Boras is telling the truth and the Sox do have all the information, then Maggs' knee must really be in bad shape even after two surgeries.

Couple that with Boras cancelling Maggs' workout, and I think it is very likely that Maggs is quite hurt and may not ever regain his form. Is such a player - perhaps not unlike post-injury Bo Jackson - worth $11 million or more per year?

Either way the Sox are being smart by not attempting to re-sign Maggs.http://www.flying-pig.net/DBH_LOGO1.jpgScott Boras not telling the whole truth? You must be kidding!

jabrch
12-08-2004, 11:57 AM
That's a good point jabrch. Records post-surgery would show nothing that would tell you whether a degenerative condition has progressed or been halted. Onlytime-lapse type of records or at least something a few months after the surgery would show that.
And screw it...medical records alone are not enough.

I want to see him run. I want to see him cut. I want to see him run suicides. I want to see him jump. I want to see him legpress. I want to see him squat. I want to see him WORK OUT. And if, as a GM and an owner, KW and JR can't see these things, then they should have no interest in signing him - NONE WHATSOFU__ING EVER.

Palehose Pete
12-08-2004, 12:11 PM
I am just so disappointed with this whole situation. Phil Rogers has a nice article in today'sTrib on what a good player Maggs was for the South Side and what a shame it is that the Sox didn't get anything for him.

Both sides, in my opinion, are guilty as hell of not showing loyalty towards each other. Maggs should have given the Sox a first dibs on the negotiations and workout and the Sox should have come to the table with a better offer. Now all we're left with is a giant gaping whole in right field and a bunch a steeply discounted Maggs merchandise. This is craptacular anyway you look at it.

ja1022
12-08-2004, 12:35 PM
All I know is that I won't ever know what really happened in this negotiation. All we hear is the spin both sides put on it, and alot of speculation in the media and here as well. For me, I'm sorry to see a cradle raised White Sox (or should that be Sock?) leave under these circumstances after seven plus productive years. For his part, Maggs has been a solid citizen, and I'm not going to speculate about what an ******* he is because of a contract negotiation. On the other hand, the White Sox gave him the opportunity to play and paid him better than $30 million to do it. Not too shabby. It sucks that the Sox will have nothing to show for that investment but his statistics. That being said, once he's gone I don't give a **** what happens to him. Personally, I wish him the best of luck, but if he suffers a significant fall off in production, that won't bother me either and a whole bunch of naysayers will change their tune and say KW and JR were on top of this situation all along.

eshunn2001
12-08-2004, 12:36 PM
http://www.flying-pig.net/DBH_LOGO1.jpgScott Boras not telling the whole truth? You must be kidding!
I love the flying pig... But I guess that proves Boras is telling the truth.

John Barrett
12-08-2004, 12:53 PM
Do you work for the Sox? All you do is defend JR and act as if he is Santa. The facts about what happened in this deal will come out when Magglio talks. To sit here and think the Sox were "pissed" on by Ordonez, when most of us know it was probably the opposite is a joke.

Easy... maggs is a pu$$. he was not Worth the money he turned down .. then he runs off to Austria for another surgery and just happens to switch agents to the biggest prick of all... sounds like Maggs is trying to cover something up... good Riddance maggs! :dtroll:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-08-2004, 12:56 PM
Look, some of you folks less resemble flying pigs as you do the proverbial dog chasing its tail.

Just because Scott Boras is a prick doesn't mean Jerry Reinsdorf isn't.
Just because Jerry Reinsdorf is a prick doesn't mean Scott Boras isn't.

The only thing I can say about Scott Boras is that he is the first player's agent to ever play baseball's Greed Game on the same level as the owners. Lying, cheating, and using every possible trick to squeeze the other side for every thin dime...

If you don't believe me, consider the example of Jerry Reinsdorf's diminished skills clause vs. Boras's make-an-offer-first negotiation posture.

They're both pricks for making these demands of the other side... and couldn't we just as easily substitute Boras's picture for Reinsdorf's in this quote...

:reinsy
"Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware."

:tool
"Every used car salesman knows that one!"

:dumbash
"Me, too!"

:KW
"Me, three!"

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 01:02 PM
Look, some of you folks less resemble flying pigs as you do the proverbial dog chasing its tail.

Just because Scott Boras is a prick doesn't mean Jerry Reinsdorf isn't.
Just because Jerry Reinsdorf is a prick doesn't mean Scott Boras isn't.

The only thing I can say about Scott Boras is that he is the first player's agent to ever play baseball's Greed Game on the same level as the owners. Lying, cheating, and using every possible trick to squeeze the other side for every thin dime...

If you don't believe me, consider the example of Jerry Reinsdorf's diminished skills clause vs. Boras's make-an-offer-first negotiation posture.



The only difference being that in JR's case, both Frank & his agent had the opportunity to review and agree to the DSC. It's not like it was written in a blank spot on the contract in invisible ink, only to appear after being signed (well, at least I don't believe it was).

But there is certainly plenty of spin on both sides. What's interesting is that in this case it seems likely that it will be fairly obvious who's lying, etc. If Maggs is not 100%, then Bora$ is full of crap and the Sox are likely telling the truth in regards to what they knew (or didn't know) about Maggs knee.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-08-2004, 01:06 PM
The only difference being that in JR's case, both Frank & his agent had the opportunity to review and agree to the DSC. It's not like it was written in a blank spot on the contract in invisible ink, only to appear after being signed (well, at least I don't believe it was).
Oh, bull****. The only difference is Frank Thomas was STUPID ENOUGH to fall for Reinsdorf's trap. Now you want to condemn Boras because Reinsdorf is SMART ENOUGH not to fall for the same trick? They are two sides of the same card!

Gimme me a ****ing break...

anewman35
12-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Oh, bull****. The only difference is Frank Thomas was STUPID ENOUGH to fall for Reinsdorf's trap. Now you want to condemn Boras because Reinsdorf is SMART ENOUGH not to fall for the same trick? They are two sides of the same card!

Gimme me a ****ing break...
There's a huge difference. Frank Thomas and his agent knew all the facts (or should have) and signed anyway. In this case, the White Sox don't know the facts at all. Big difference.

CubKilla
12-08-2004, 01:20 PM
Do you trust Scott Boras? I don't.
Yeah..... well..... I don't trust JR either

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Oh, bull****. The only difference is Frank Thomas was STUPID ENOUGH to fall for Reinsdorf's trap. Now you want to condemn Boras because Reinsdorf is SMART ENOUGH not to fall for the same trick? They are two sides of the same card!

Gimme me a ****ing break...
We'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I highly doubt that the DSC was included in the contract without some other concession going along as well. Either that or Frank's agent was incompetent (and IIRC, he had a good agent who died in a plane crash). I don't consider it a "trap" when both sides review, negotiate, and agree on something.

On the other hand, if Boras has withheld information that as Maggs employer,the Sox are entitled to (per the contract language), that would IMO be more unethical.

JKryl
12-08-2004, 01:28 PM
One interesting thing that hasn't been discussed here is what all the other MLB teams are going to do with respect to Mags? Are any of them goofy enough to sign him to a multi million dollar deal without a thorough work-out and examination? Borass may be screwing Mags through inaction, but I suppose that if he's still really hurt, they don't have much of a choice. In the end, if Mags is still hurt, his lying about his condition, even if he ends up healthy by spring training, will cost him a bundle.

inta
12-08-2004, 01:59 PM
Prediction:

Magglio will have an MVP calibre season for another team next year.... While the White Sox will continue to be the same loser franchise they've always been.

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 02:04 PM
If Scott Boras were a weather forecaster and he said it would be sunny and warm today, I'd make certain to bring my umbrella and rain coat.
Why is it that it's okay for an agent to lie about his players and perform underhanded practices, but if the owners were to do it, it'd be in violation of the contract with the players, collusion, cheating, illegal and contributing to the spawning of the anti-Christ?

It seems to me that there's no one holding agents accountable for their lying and cheating - and if the owners were to band together and say, "We won't deal with Scott Boras - no matter what," they'd be charged with collusion...

StillMissOzzie
12-08-2004, 02:05 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox08.html

Looks like KW is trying to take the high road - "We will always remember Magglio" and the like.

Boras, on the other hand, claims the Sox were never serious (apparently 5/$70 is not serious), and that they had all relevant records.

Let the post-breakup pissing contest begin!

The other gem in this article: Maggs could play today, so actually the December "workout" session is completely unneccessary. Anything smell fishy?
Translation from Bora$-ese to English: The Sox never made a serious offer when it's his commission nickel at stake.

SMO

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 02:06 PM
Prediction:

Magglio will have an MVP calibre season for another team next year.... While the White Sox will continue to be the same loser franchise they've always been.
Prediction:

Magglio will never play a full season of baseball again as the injury is really career ending, and inta will continue to fall hook, line and sinker for what Scott Boras has to say - much like Cub fans do with the Tribune.

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:08 PM
Prediction:

Magglio will never play a full season of baseball again as the injury is really career ending, and inta will continue to fall hook, line and sinker for what Scott Boras has to say - much like Cub fans do with the Tribune.
Ok and if Magglio puts up .310/30/115 what will you say than?

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 02:11 PM
Ok and if Magglio puts up .310/30/115 what will you say than?
If he does that in 2005, I will go on record as saying that Boras was not misleading the team and that the arbitration thing indicates that something the Sox did just pissed Maggs off.

The question is- what will you do if/when Maggs isn't able to play a full season in 2005?

Justafan
12-08-2004, 02:12 PM
If he does that in 2005, I will go on record as saying that Boras was not misleading the team and that the arbitration thing indicates that something the Sox did just pissed Maggs off.

The question is- what will you do if/when Maggs isn't able to play a full season in 2005?
I'll agree that KW and JR were wronged.

inta
12-08-2004, 02:17 PM
Prediction:

Magglio will never play a full season of baseball again as the injury is really career ending, and inta will continue to fall hook, line and sinker for what Scott Boras has to say - much like Cub fans do with the Tribune.

oh wah wah wah you little bit#$

personal attacks? grow a brain, twit.


i never defended boras whatsoever. the situation is hardly black and white... both sides are morons. as are you obviously.

what i find most hilarious is that you're defending the sox on this with that screenname.
:kukoo:

gosox41
12-08-2004, 02:18 PM
Do you work for the Sox? All you do is defend JR and act as if he is Santa. The facts about what happened in this deal will come out when Magglio talks. To sit here and think the Sox were "pissed" on by Ordonez, when most of us know it was probably the opposite is a joke.
It pretty much has been listed as fact that the Sox had offered Magglio a 5year contract worth $60 mill, eventually pushed up to $70 mill.

They were offering Magglio more then Vlad money.

Now I don't know all the details of this Vienna surgery and if the Sox gave Magglio the name of a guy or if they saw the records or not. I'm guessing they haven't and aren't trying to run a smear campaign on Maggllio.

On the flip side you have an agent who is notorious for BSing ownership to get the best contract for his clients (see A-Rod). Nothing wrong with doing this. But it does hurt credibility in issues like this.

I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere in between KW and Boras. But KW is giving more of the truth. He seems to be more of a straight shooter then Boras.


Bob

eshunn2001
12-08-2004, 02:19 PM
Ok and if Magglio puts up .310/30/115 what will you say than?
That more than likely will never happen again in his career. He probably will not be able to play enough games for it to happen. But IF he takes the field on a regular basis, he will not be too far off IMHO. and as long as those number are not put up for the Cubs I will be happy for him.

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 02:27 PM
We'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I highly doubt that the DSC was included in the contract without some other concession going along as well. Either that or Frank's agent was incompetent (and IIRC, he had a good agent who died in a plane crash). I don't consider it a "trap" when both sides review, negotiate, and agree on something.

On the other hand, if Boras has withheld information that as Maggs employer,the Sox are entitled to (per the contract language), that would IMO be more unethical.
Let's not kid ourselves. Frank nor his agent were incompetent. They were overconfident. There's a big difference. Frank thought he could win another MVP in the time allowed, and for all practical purposes, he did - in 2000. On the other hand, JR was not shady. It's not like he tried to piggyback the clause onto the contract like a piece of legislation. You can call JR a jerk for doing this, but let's face it, he was trying to find a way to afford to keep Thomas without having a bust of a contract. Keep in mind that he was being very careful - especially after locking so many dollars up in Jamie Navarro - remember what that did to our payroll for his tenure? If we hadn't gotten Valentin and Eldred for him, it would probably go down as the worst signing in the history of this franchise - though Ron Santo was pretty bad.

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 02:29 PM
Ok and if Magglio puts up .310/30/115 what will you say than?
First of all, do you mean - "what would I say then?" If so, I would say that I was wrong, but given the circumstances, I would still say that Maggs was a complete ass and unprofessional.

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 02:35 PM
oh wah wah wah you little bit#$

personal attacks? grow a brain, twit.


i never defended boras whatsoever. the situation is hardly black and white... both sides are morons. as are you obviously.

what i find most hilarious is that you're defending the sox on this with that screenname.
:kukoo:
First of all, I didn't personally attack you. I believe the above bolded print outlines what an attack is - at least the name calling variety of one.

I simply said that you're falling hook, line and sinker for the propoganda that Bora$ is selling us. Please go back and read your own posts for proof of that.

As far as me defending the Sox on this - it's a thread on Magglio - and the Sox are in the right here and are being wronged.

If this were a thread about how moronic it was to trade Keith Foulke to Oakland, I could go on for days about that - and bash Sox management with the best of 'em, but in this case - it seems I am the one being objective, and you are the one tied too passionately to a player/your faith in him.

But wait, I'd better not tell you what you are - you might just think I'm attacking you and call me a twit again. :whiner:

ja1022
12-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Ok and if Magglio puts up .310/30/115 what will you say than?
"Nice season."

CubKilla
12-08-2004, 02:47 PM
I would still say that Maggs was a complete ass and unprofessional.
The only thing unprofessional over the past 20+ years has been the way the White Sox Organization has treated the majority of their players.

34 Inch Stick
12-08-2004, 02:50 PM
Does anyone know the teams that Boras has provided the injury information to?

At the present time I would think Maggs would be a big risk to any NL team. I have a feeling Maggs will be playing as much DH as RF in the near future.

inta
12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
First of all, I didn't personally attack you. I believe the above bolded print outlines what an attack is - at least the name calling variety of one.

I simply said that you're falling hook, line and sinker for the propoganda that Bora$ is selling us. Please go back and read your own posts for proof of that.

As far as me defending the Sox on this - it's a thread on Magglio - and the Sox are in the right here and are being wronged.

If this were a thread about how moronic it was to trade Keith Foulke to Oakland, I could go on for days about that - and bash Sox management with the best of 'em, but in this case - it seems I am the one being objective, and you are the one tied too passionately to a player/your faith in him.

But wait, I'd better not tell you what you are - you might just think I'm attacking you and call me a twit again. :whiner:


comparing me to cubs fans on WSI is a personal attack in my book.
i mean c'mon. someone on WSI says something you disagree with so you call them a cubs fan?
get real.


i havent commented on boras whatsoever. but if you believe magglio to be entirely washed up and done... i feel sorry for you.

it's not "boras is wrong, sox are right" or vice versa.

the offer the sox made last year was largely deferred, and when that wasnt accepted they were trying to trade him because they had no intention of keeping him. the sox have hardly been "wronged".

inta
12-08-2004, 02:52 PM
The only thing unprofessional over the past 20+ years has been the way the White Sox Organization has treated the majority of their players.

too f'n true.

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 03:01 PM
The only thing unprofessional over the past 20+ years has been the way the White Sox Organization has treated the majority of their players.
That may be Killa, but in this instance, for a change, the Sox management did the right thing.

mweflen
12-08-2004, 03:06 PM
You know, I've given it some thought. I don't hate Magglio, I'm just disappointed in him.

It seems to me, in the era of free agency, there are three kinds of players.

1. Total A-holes who will lie, cheat and steal in any way possible to make a buck (i.e. Albert Belle, Juan Gone, Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi)

2. Average guys who like to stick around and be true to their word generally, but will go where the money is (almost everyone else, and I'm sure most of us if we were in their position)

3. The rare few who are loyal, scrupulous, and devoted to a certain team, their fans, etc., and who will make some sacrifices (albeit rarely very large ones given the sums of money involved) to stay where they are. (I'm thinking types like Cal Ripken, maybe even Frank Thomas, though this is debatable)

The disappointment comes in because Magglio was kind of representing himself as a "type 3" with only a little of "type 2" mixed in - and it turns out he's probably a "type 2" with a dash of "type 1". He said he wanted badly to stay here and that he hoped it would get done, that he loved playing here, etc. Had those things not been said, I don't think there would be the backlash there is among the devoted fanbase.

c'est lavie, i guess.

jabrch
12-08-2004, 03:18 PM
the offer the sox made last year was largely deferred
That is completely untrue. In fact, it is against the rules to offer a deal that would be "largely deferred". I believe the MAXIMUM that a deal can be deferred is 20%. In any case, by all accounts the problem with the offer Magglio had at the time was not the money, but the 5th year being guaranteed or having incentives...

Get your facts straight

PaulDrake
12-08-2004, 03:19 PM
MM said on another thread that we probably only know about 25% of the story and I tend to agree with him. However it appears to me that JR tendered Maggs the usual back loaded, incentive driven contract with maybe a diminished skill clause or two. All the while trying to trade him. Maggs felt betrayed and angry but then suffered a career threatening freak injury, which helped the Sox PR wise. The perception is now that Maggs is an ungrateful guttersnipe and damaged goods to boot. Hiring snake oil saleman Boras, who appears to lying about Maggs condition hasn't helped matters. At this point Maggs and Boras are the bad guys, but that is not how the situation started out. This saga is complicated and can't be explained in a sound bite or two.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 03:24 PM
That is completely untrue. In fact, it is against the rules to offer a deal that would be "largely deferred". I believe the MAXIMUM that a deal can be deferred is 20%. In any case, by all accounts the problem with the offer Magglio had at the time was not the money, but the 5th year being guaranteed or having incentives...

Get your facts straightThere is no rule in the CBA that limits the amount of deferred money. In fact, it specifically states that there is NO limit. It's been posted here more than once, so I'm not going to bother again.

inta
12-08-2004, 03:29 PM
That is completely untrue. In fact, it is against the rules to offer a deal that would be "largely deferred". I believe the MAXIMUM that a deal can be deferred is 20%. In any case, by all accounts the problem with the offer Magglio had at the time was not the money, but the 5th year being guaranteed or having incentives...

Get your facts straight umm. no.
the deferred amt was a huge factor last year. the sox were constantly whining "we offered him the contract he wanted" and magglio at every opportunity stated that he was not happy at all with the deferred amt.

my saying "largely deferred" was editorializing it (as if that never happens around here) as i dont know the contract that was offered, nobody here does.
but it still stands that the sox helped contribute to this current mess. it's not just "magglio is greedy".

mweflen
12-08-2004, 03:45 PM
Personally, I don't see what the big gripe is over deferred money. So what if you get your $70,000,000 over 8 years instead of 5.

If you win a world series because you took some deferred money and helped the team out, isn't it worth the losses in potential interest accrued and loss of value due to inflation?

I think when you're talking about such obscene amounts of money, a reasonable person would say "gee, waiting a few more years to collect the $70mil isn't so bad. I play for a better team, and I have a de facto pension coming in after my career's over."

Greed. Pure, utter, stupid greed.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 03:51 PM
umm. no.
the deferred amt was a huge factor last year. the sox were constantly whining "we offered him the contract he wanted" and magglio at every opportunity stated that he was not happy at all with the deferred amt.

my saying "largely deferred" was editorializing it (as if that never happens around here) as i dont know the contract that was offered, nobody here does.
but it still stands that the sox helped contribute to this current mess. it's not just "magglio is greedy".
His request was supposedly modeled afte the Vlady & Tejada contracts.....both of which have significant deferrals and/or options in late years. Maggs wouldn't take that, so what he was REALLY asking for was MORE money than Vlady/Tejada.

That's either greed or delusion.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-08-2004, 04:07 PM
We'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I highly doubt that the DSC was included in the contract without some other concession going along as well. Either that or Frank's agent was incompetent (and IIRC, he had a good agent who died in a plane crash). I don't consider it a "trap" when both sides review, negotiate, and agree on something.

On the other hand, if Boras has withheld information that as Maggs employer,the Sox are entitled to (per the contract language), that would IMO be more unethical. Frank signed the contract back in the mid-90's. His agent didn't die until the early-00's. Furthermore Reinsdorf himself claims he advised Frank not to sign the contract, but Frank did anyway. (Naturally he only made this claim after he himself invoked the diminished skills clause years later, not that we have any reason to ever doubt the sincerity of Jerry Reinsdorf). We can assume Frank's agent advised him against signing, too.

The point is THE OFFER WAS MADE, #24. Frank can't accept the offer until AFTER Reinsdorf makes it. You aren't denying Reinsdorf made the offer to Frank, are you?
:?:

Boras makes bogus offers, too. He's the player's agent equivalent to Reinsdorf.

:reinsy
"Caveat emptor, Magglio. Now I wouldn't advise you to sign this offer, but here it is anyway..."

Reinsdorf isn't as dumb as Frank Thomas. He would never fall for such a dumb negotiating trick. He wishes Magglio was dumb enough to fall for one of his own.
:cool:

:reinsy
"Boras won't negotiate until AFTER I make an offer? Damn -- why didn't I think of that one!"

:maggs
"What does 'caveat emptor' mean?"

:hurt
"Beats me, but I'm getting paid a lot less now for not knowing."

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 04:20 PM
Frank signed the contract back in the mid-90's. His agent didn't die until the early-00's. Furthermore Reinsdorf himself claims he advised Frank not to sign the contract, but Frank did anyway. (Naturally he only made this claim after he himself invoked the diminished skills clause years later, not that we have any reason to ever doubt the sincerity of Jerry Reinsdorf). We can assume Frank's agent advised him against signing, too.

The point is THE OFFER WAS MADE, #24. Frank can't accept the offer until AFTER Reinsdorf makes it. You aren't denying Reinsdorf made the offer to Frank, are you?
:?:

"Boras won't negotiate until AFTER I make an offer? Damn -- why didn't I think of that one!"
Obviously the offer was made or it wouldn't have been in the contract. That was not my point.

The point is that making an offer that provides protection in the event of declining performance, having a reputable agent and the player review it and make their own decision on it with full information is a far cry from outright lying (which is what I believe Boras is doing regarding Maggs condition), and from preventing the Sox from getting the medical access to information that they are contractually entitled to.

I dont' have a problem with Boras telling the Sox "I don't think your offer is significant enough". I do have a problem with him saying "no, you can't examine Maggs or get updated medical information on him, but you're welcome to come to the workout on 12/10 (since cancelled)."

Foulke29
12-08-2004, 04:29 PM
comparing me to cubs fans on WSI is a personal attack in my book.
i mean c'mon. someone on WSI says something you disagree with so you call them a cubs fan?
get real.


i havent commented on boras whatsoever. but if you believe magglio to be entirely washed up and done... i feel sorry for you.

it's not "boras is wrong, sox are right" or vice versa.

the offer the sox made last year was largely deferred, and when that wasnt accepted they were trying to trade him because they had no intention of keeping him. the sox have hardly been "wronged".
By the way inta, largely deferred is relative. I believe that there are agreements with the Players' Association that a maximum amount can be deferred - like for example 20%. The contracts are required to not exceed that amount, so when you hear about largely deferred it's relative to the maximum amount that can be deferred. Also keep in mind that, deferred is not saying you make $9 million year one, $12 million year two, $15 million year four. Deferred means, a portion of your salary goes into an account - so to speak - and upon completion of the contract you receive it. I heared there was really very little deferred money in this capacity.

jabrch
12-08-2004, 04:32 PM
Personally, I don't see what the big gripe is over deferred money. So what if you get your $70,000,000 over 8 years instead of 5.
The big gripe there is about somewhere between 7 - 10mm (without using a calculator)...

and when you are talking about that, in terms of a guy who has already made over 40mm and is signing a 70mm deal, you are talking about a either someone who has no intention of staying in Chicago (which makes him a liar) or a greedy prick. Frankly, I think it's the former. I don't believe Ordonez wanted to stay in Chicago.

Iwritecode
12-08-2004, 04:36 PM
Frank signed the contract back in the mid-90's. His agent didn't die until the early-00's. Furthermore Reinsdorf himself claims he advised Frank not to sign the contract, but Frank did anyway. (Naturally he only made this claim after he himself invoked the diminished skills clause years later, not that we have any reason to ever doubt the sincerity of Jerry Reinsdorf). We can assume Frank's agent advised him against signing, too.

The point is THE OFFER WAS MADE, #24. Frank can't accept the offer until AFTER Reinsdorf makes it. You aren't denying Reinsdorf made the offer to Frank, are you?
:?:

Boras makes bogus offers, too. He's the player's agent equivalent to Reinsdorf.

:reinsy
"Caveat emptor, Magglio. Now I wouldn't advise you to sign this offer, but here it is anyway..."

Reinsdorf isn't as dumb as Frank Thomas. He would never fall for such a dumb negotiating trick. He wishes Magglio was dumb enough to fall for one of his own.
:cool:

:reinsy
"Boras won't negotiate until AFTER I make an offer? Damn -- why didn't I think of that one!"

:maggs
"What does 'caveat emptor' mean?"

:hurt
"Beats me, but I'm getting paid a lot less now for not knowing."

I can;t believe you can compare JR offering Thomas a contract that he is allowed to read and review with Scott Boras withholding information.

:reinsy
"Now I wouldn't advise you to sign this offer, but here it is anyway. Just know that if you fail to win an MVP award you might not get all your money at one time."

:hurt
"No problem. I can win plenty of MVP awards in the next 10 years.

:reinsy
"Hey Scott, is Magglio 100%?

:borass
"Sorry JR, I can't tell you that."

:reinsy
"So if we offer arbitration and he accepts but isn't 100%, we're pretty much screwed huh?"

:borass
"yep"

I won't even get into how he managed to lie enough to Tom Hicks that he bid against himself when trying to get A-rod...

mweflen
12-08-2004, 04:45 PM
The big gripe there is about somewhere between 7 - 10mm (without using a calculator)...

and when you are talking about that, in terms of a guy who has already made over 40mm and is signing a 70mm deal, you are talking about a either someone who has no intention of staying in Chicago (which makes him a liar) or a greedy prick. Frankly, I think it's the former. I don't believe Ordonez wanted to stay in Chicago.I agree on the greedy prickishness - but I think you're even overstating the amount "lost" when money is deferred.

Let's say, best case scenario, inflation is 4% per year. So you're losing 4% per year on whatever money is deferred. Also, let's say you can make 5% per year by wisely investing the money.

So let's say $20mil is deferred for the 4 years following your 5 year contract.

You lose from inflation (at a generous 4% rate):
year 1 = $800k
year 2 = $600k
year 3 = $400k
year 4 = $200k

for a total of $2 mil.

You lose from inability to invest (at a hypothetical 5% return):
year 1 = $1mil
year 2 = $750k
year 3 = $500k
year 4 = $250k

for a total of $2.5 mil.

So basically, by taking this hypothetical deferred money contract (70mil/5years with 20mil deferred to the 4 years following), you're sacrificing $4.5 million.

I think most players, unblinded by greed, with the cash, would gladly fork over $4.5 mil to play on better teams with better chances in the postseason.

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 04:46 PM
The big gripe there is about somewhere between 7 - 10mm (without using a calculator)...

and when you are talking about that, in terms of a guy who has already made over 40mm and is signing a 70mm deal, you are talking about a either someone who has no intention of staying in Chicago (which makes him a liar) or a greedy prick. Frankly, I think it's the former. I don't believe Ordonez wanted to stay in Chicago.
It's less that that. $14mil/yr over 5 years (no deferrals) has a PV of $58.4mil. Using rumored CBA restrictions of 20% annual deferral and a maximum period of 2 years past the end of the contract, the PV would be $54.6mil. $3.8mil over the life of the contract would be 6.6%

I realize there's some question over the validity of the rumored restrictions since it's not explicit in the CBA, but has been reported in various places. Obviously if there's no such restrictions, then there are a lot more things that could happen.

stillz
12-08-2004, 05:20 PM
Boras is a slippery snake, and Maggs has been seduced by his greedy ways. JR and KW are the businessmen. They gave Maggs career a start and then offered him a sizable contract to continue with the organization. Because of Boras, he rejected the deal - choosing to hold out for more millions. The rest is injury-history. I wish Maggs well, but don't sympathize with him one bit. These agents are slimeballs, and the players live in a selfish fantasy world with them.

Everything Boras says is smoke.

FightingBillini
12-08-2004, 05:58 PM
Prediction:

Magglio will have an MVP calibre season for another team next year.... While the White Sox will continue to be the same loser franchise they've always been.
Prediction:

No... and of course they will

While I dont wish him ill willl, Maggs was clearly a prick for the way he went about the whole thing. He turned down a more than generous offer from the Sox midseason. He wanted MORE than Vlad Guerrero got. He is not, nor will ever be, as good as Vlad Guerrero. His intent was to decieve the Sox. I doubt whether or not he will be healthy next year, and I dont believe he will ever be the same player he was before...
Of course, that doesnt mean the Sox are a good organization. Reinsdorf is scum, he is sleaze, he is a coniving snake. He doenst care one bit about winning, or pleasing the fans. In this case, however, they did the right thing. They offered him a fair contract at the beginning of the season. Also, I distinctly remember Buehrle on the radio in July right before Maggs went out for the season saying something along the lines of "Maggs said they are starting to talk again, and they are getting really close. Im excited, something could happen really soon". While the Reinsdorf regime was wrong so often, this is not an instance of wrongness.

Moral of the story: Reinsdorf and Borass are both slime. The are both cheats. They are both liars. Trust neither.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-08-2004, 08:25 PM
I can;t believe you can compare JR offering Thomas a contract that he is allowed to read and review with Scott Boras withholding information.
Really? I can't believe either you or Flight#24 can keep confusing the filthy motive for testing the stupidity of the other party into accepting a one-sided deal.

:tool
"Hey Code and #24, I need a couple more used car salesmen back at 'Bud's Auto Sales.' You guys are EXACTLY what I'm looking for!"

:reinsy
"No way! Me and Boras spotted them first!"

:KW
"This one has low miles... only driven on Sundays... I wouldn't recommend financing, but you'll never spend $20K on a better value... these '74 Pintos are classics."

ode to veeck
12-08-2004, 08:38 PM
Unfortunately for Magglio, the signs are more and more pointing to ongoing problems with his knee, especially latest cancelling of its checkout workout. As much as we give JR a lot of well deserved crap, the offer the Sox made earlier in the year was a pretty decent one. Unless Boras is a better used car salesman than we thought, I think Maggs is gonna be hard pressed to find a match to the Sox offer, unless his knee is cured by some miracle. Too bad for Maggs; I always liked the guy.

Dick Allen
12-08-2004, 10:04 PM
Boras needs to be pushed out of an airplane.

Blueprint1
12-09-2004, 04:21 AM
Unfortunately for Magglio, the signs are more and more pointing to ongoing problems with his knee, especially latest cancelling of its checkout workout. As much as we give JR a lot of well deserved crap, the offer the Sox made earlier in the year was a pretty decent one. Unless Boras is a better used car salesman than we thought, I think Maggs is gonna be hard pressed to find a match to the Sox offer, unless his knee is cured by some miracle. Too bad for Maggs; I always liked the guy.
Why does someone always have to bring up car salesman. Newsflash agents are lawyers the real problem.

LASOXFAN
12-09-2004, 05:18 AM
Why are you doubting him? Any deal that Mags signed will be conditional on him passing a team physical, so all of this speculation is BS. You can't hide an injury, especially one as supposedly grave as this. If he's hurt then the deal will be null and void. If he's healthy, someone just signed an instant candidate for MVP and my favorite ballplayer.

steff
12-09-2004, 07:10 AM
the offer the sox made last year was largely deferred, and when that wasnt accepted they were trying to trade him because they had no intention of keeping him. the sox have hardly been "wronged".

This is absolutely not true. And if you wouldn't mind posting your source to Maggs comments...? He did 2 things at the time that contract was offered.. ask for a 5th year, which he got.. then go on to say "I am here to play ball and will not negotiate in the press". He never made a comment about deferred $$.. likely because it was not an issue, because by all accounts the issue was incentives in the 5th year.

steff
12-09-2004, 07:12 AM
umm. no.
the deferred amt was a huge factor last year. the sox were constantly whining "we offered him the contract he wanted" and magglio at every opportunity stated that he was not happy at all with the deferred amt.



Source?

ode to veeck
12-09-2004, 07:58 AM
Why does someone always have to bring up car salesman. Newsflash agents are lawyers the real problem.
:tool

"You took those words right outa my mouth Blueprint! By the way, anyone want to buy a used franchise from Montreal?"

gosox41
12-09-2004, 09:05 AM
That is completely untrue. In fact, it is against the rules to offer a deal that would be "largely deferred". I believe the MAXIMUM that a deal can be deferred is 20%. In any case, by all accounts the problem with the offer Magglio had at the time was not the money, but the 5th year being guaranteed or having incentives...

Get your facts straight

But it's more fun to make things up to make the Sox look bad. Ranks right up there with attributing random quotes from people who know less about business but all of the sudden have a credible opinion about the Sox business practices.


Bob

Foulke29
12-09-2004, 09:58 AM
The deal for Dye is what I'm talking about - I'll take a $4.5 Million a year Dye over a $12 to $16 Million Magglio any day of the week and on 2/29 every four years.

What are you going to say when Dye has a better season next year than Mags does?

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 11:04 AM
Let's see if Dye can go through a season healthy first before we start comparing anything.


Lip

Mickster
12-09-2004, 11:08 AM
Let's see if Dye can go through a season healthy first before we start comparing anything.


Lip
Lip,

Even if Maggs and Dye both but up career averages in '05, is Maggs really worth $10M more per year?

munchman33
12-09-2004, 11:08 AM
Let's see if Dye can go through a season healthy first before we start comparing anything.
Lip
Well, at this point Dye has a significantly better chance of playing through this season healthy than Magglio does. From that perspective, it's an upgrade.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 11:09 AM
Let's see if Dye can go through a season healthy first before we start comparing anything.


Lip
Isn't part of the point that right now Dye seems to have a much better chance at getting through a full season than Maggs does? Not to mention that even if both do get through a full season, I'd take Dye + $10mil (i.e. Garcia/Konerko) than Maggs.

doublem23
12-09-2004, 11:10 AM
Let's see if Dye can go through a season healthy first before we start comparing anything.


Lip
Let's see if Maggs can ever play a healthy season, too.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 11:40 AM
As stated in the past I agree the Sox had no choice regarding Magglio. They could have avoided all this by doing something in the past and changing the future but they didn't.

And considering the alternative was Joe 'Big Bust' Borchard' yes it is an upgrade.

All I'm saying is we better wait and see how the season plays out before 'crowing' about anything. Remember these are the White Sox nothing but a hangnail on the fickle finger of fate.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2004, 11:41 AM
:tomatoaward

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2004, 11:43 AM
As stated in the past I agree the Sox had no choice regarding Magglio. They could have avoided all this by doing something in the past and changing the future but they didn't.

And considering the alternative was Joe 'Big Bust' Borchard' yes it is an upgrade.

All I'm saying is we better wait and see how the season plays out before 'crowing' about anything. Remember these are the White Sox nothing but a hangnail on the fickle finger of fate.

Lip

I know that hindsight is 20/20...

Looking back, given his injury, it is "fortunate" that the Sox did not sign Maggs to a long-term contract. I look at it as an example (albeit a rare example) when being cheap paid off for the Sox.

I wish JR wasn't cheap and I wish the Sox weren't so stupid. But even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 11:48 AM
I know that hindsight is 20/20...

Looking back, given his injury, it is "fortunate" that the Sox did not sign Maggs to a long-term contract. I look at it as an example (albeit a rare example) when being cheap paid off for the Sox.

I wish JR wasn't cheap and I wish the Sox weren't so stupid. But even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often.
Look at it this way - even if Maggs was healthy, would you rather have Maggs or Dye+Garcia/Konerko+1-2mil to spend elsewhere?

IMO it's arguable if resigning Maggs was the best use of $14mil/yr, but given his history, it was a solid offer. He declined, and I'm glad the Sox didn't ante up to more $$$. I highly doubt that Maggs will get more than the Sox offered, even if he's healthy.

doublem23
12-09-2004, 11:49 AM
I highly doubt that Maggs will get more than the Sox offered, even if he's healthy.
If he was healthy, I think he could have. Cristian Guzman got $4 million a year, for ****'s sake.

gosox41
12-09-2004, 12:15 PM
As stated in the past I agree the Sox had no choice regarding Magglio. They could have avoided all this by doing something in the past and changing the future but they didn't.

And considering the alternative was Joe 'Big Bust' Borchard' yes it is an upgrade.

All I'm saying is we better wait and see how the season plays out before 'crowing' about anything. Remember these are the White Sox nothing but a hangnail on the fickle finger of fate.

Lip

I guess the Sox could have raised their $14 mill per year bid to Magglio to $15mil a year for 5 years and then possibly ahd a $15 mill. a year OF possibly sitting on the DL.

Lucky for the Sox Magglio wanted more.


Bob

Mickster
12-09-2004, 12:22 PM
I guess the Sox could have raised their $14 mill per year bid to Magglio to $15mil a year for 5 years and then possibly ahd a $15 mill. a year OF possibly sitting on the DL.

Lucky for the Sox Magglio wanted more.


Bob
If that would have happened, we would have the same bunch of whiners clamoring about how stupid KW was to offer Maggs this huge deal.... :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Iwritecode
12-09-2004, 12:37 PM
Really? I can't believe either you or Flight#24 can keep confusing the filthy motive for testing the stupidity of the other party into accepting a one-sided deal.

How was Frank's contract a one-sided deal? He signed it knowing full well what could (and did) happen to him.

The Sox could offer Maggs arbitration expecting him to be 100% and not have him play a single game...

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 12:51 PM
If that would have happened, we would have the same bunch of whiners clamoring about how stupid KW was to offer Maggs this huge deal.... :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:
And another group clamoring about how JR's "not serious about winning" because he didn't go out and sign another $10+mil player to replace Maggs or back him up in event of injury....

mweflen
12-09-2004, 03:47 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-ssep09.html


KW: We didn't give Magglio the name of the Doc in Austria, no we didn't have records, we're the ones telling the truth.

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 03:50 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-ssep09.html


KW: We didn't give Magglio the name of the Doc in Austria, no we didn't have records, we're the ones telling the truth.
Kenny wouldn't make an offer until he found out what surgery was performed and what the findings were.

The unreasonable bastard!

Hitmen77
12-09-2004, 04:15 PM
...But you know what....even if they did give the sox medical records, they were from Boras' in pocket doctors. Why would the sox, or any other team for that matter, make a financial committment without having their people look at him? What's your problem? I don't know why you don't trust Boras' doctor - Dr. Nick Riviera.
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/2899/anick.gif

HI EVERYBODY! MAGGS IS JUST FINE!

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 06:00 PM
Obviously none of you took any classes involving Einsteinian physics.

If the Sox signed Maggs in 2003 there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

He made have hurt something else but he also may have stayed completely healthy as his entire MLB career until May 2004 showed.

It's not that hard to understand folks...

Lip

Ol' No. 2
12-09-2004, 06:02 PM
Obviously none of you took any classes involving Einsteinian physics.

If the Sox signed Maggs in 2003 there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

He made have hurt something else but he also may have stayed completely healthy as his entire MLB career until May 2004 showed.

It's not that hard to understand folks...

LipWho is playing first in this alternate universe of yours, Lip?

steff
12-09-2004, 06:04 PM
Obviously none of you took any classes involving Einsteinian physics.

If the Sox signed Maggs in 2003 there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

He made have hurt something else but he also may have stayed completely healthy as his entire MLB career until May 2004 showed.

It's not that hard to understand folks...

Lip

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle...

:rolleyes:

Flight #24
12-09-2004, 06:06 PM
Obviously none of you took any classes involving Einsteinian physics.

If the Sox signed Maggs in 2003 there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

He made have hurt something else but he also may have stayed completely healthy as his entire MLB career until May 2004 showed.

It's not that hard to understand folks...

Lip
In that case, I blame myself. If I had drunk less keystone and more PBR in college, there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

I apologize profusely to the entire WSI community (and to my liver).

Foulke29
12-09-2004, 06:16 PM
Obviously none of you took any classes involving Einsteinian physics.

If the Sox signed Maggs in 2003 there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

He made have hurt something else but he also may have stayed completely healthy as his entire MLB career until May 2004 showed.

It's not that hard to understand folks...

Lip

Let's pose this question Lippy: while shagging a fly ball, what if Maggs were to pass the speed of light in chasing it down?

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 06:20 PM
No. 2:

It sure as hell wouldn't be Ross Gload and Jamie Burke wouldn't be catching with Willie Harris at second base.

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 06:21 PM
Foulke:

Can't happen according to all known laws of physics.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
12-09-2004, 07:50 PM
Foulke:

Can't happen according to all known laws of physics.

LipLip:

Neither can time travel, so forget about what didn't happen in 2003!
Maggs is gone - deal with it and move on.

SMO
:gulp:

PS: Steff, LMAO!!!

Lip Man 1
12-09-2004, 10:34 PM
I don't have a problem with Maggs leaving. My problem is that we see the same things in regards to top Sox talent leaving for the same reasons.

If that's the Sox 'philosophy' it clearly isn't working either on or off the field.

Lip

doublem23
12-09-2004, 10:51 PM
Obviously none of you took any classes involving Einsteinian physics.

If the Sox signed Maggs in 2003 there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

He made have hurt something else but he also may have stayed completely healthy as his entire MLB career until May 2004 showed.

It's not that hard to understand folks...

LipEinsteinian physics? Are you ****ing joking? This is maybe the most ridiculous post ever on any of these boards, and that's saying a lot.

Look at what happens to teams that drastically overpay players in lame attempts to "win today." You really want to use the New York Mets or Texas Rangers as models for this team? That's so beyond stupid I don't know what to say.

By all reports, the Sox offered Magglio a very fair and decent contract. As his right, he turned it down, in hopes that he would find some sucker team out there to pony up Vladimir Guerrero-esque money before a freak injury jeopardized his career. He then proceded to dump his agent for the biggest sleazeball in the business who has proceeded to maintain his ridiculous demands yet has mysteriously cancelled Magglio's Winter Meetings workout and seems to be doing a pretty good hush-hush job about rumors pertaining to Magglio's visits to Vienna. I don't buy it.

Hope the door didn't hit your ass on the way out, Magglio. Thanks for all the memories, but I can't say I'll cheer for you ever again.

And before you go off on another one of your tired, predictable little posts accusing me of being a **** and only caring about Jerry Reinsdorf's profit margin, stuff it. Things are always clear cut, black and white. Sometimes there's more than just a bad guy and good guy. I would have a lot more respect for Magglio if he had never came out and said he wanted to come back because that was clearly not his intention (unless the Sox were willing to cut him $15 million or so a year).

gosox41
12-10-2004, 09:14 AM
In that case, I blame myself. If I had drunk less keystone and more PBR in college, there are NO GUARANTEES history would have turned out the same exact way.

I apologize profusely to the entire WSI community (and to my liver).

If I didn't kill that cricket when I was five years old, imagine how great life would be now. History as we know it would have been rewritten.:D: :D: :D:




Bob

MRKARNO
12-10-2004, 10:04 AM
Einsteinian physics? Are you ****ing joking? This is maybe the most ridiculous post ever on any of these boards, and that's saying a lot.

Look at what happens to teams that drastically overpay players in lame attempts to "win today." You really want to use the New York Mets or Texas Rangers as models for this team? That's so beyond stupid I don't know what to say.

By all reports, the Sox offered Magglio a very fair and decent contract. As his right, he turned it down, in hopes that he would find some sucker team out there to pony up Vladimir Guerrero-esque money before a freak injury jeopardized his career. He then proceded to dump his agent for the biggest sleazeball in the business who has proceeded to maintain his ridiculous demands yet has mysteriously cancelled Magglio's Winter Meetings workout and seems to be doing a pretty good hush-hush job about rumors pertaining to Magglio's visits to Vienna. I don't buy it.

Hope the door didn't hit your ass on the way out, Magglio. Thanks for all the memories, but I can't say I'll cheer for you ever again.

And before you go off on another one of your tired, predictable little posts accusing me of being a **** and only caring about Jerry Reinsdorf's profit margin, stuff it. Things are always clear cut, black and white. Sometimes there's more than just a bad guy and good guy. I would have a lot more respect for Magglio if he had never came out and said he wanted to come back because that was clearly not his intention (unless the Sox were willing to cut him $15 million or so a year).

Could not have said it better myself. I really hope he goes to the Cubs and he demonstrates how much he really cares about White Sox fans (aka not at all).