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JRIG
12-07-2004, 07:40 AM
Williams' Plan B does not involve finding a shortstop. That position will be Juan Uribe's to lose this spring. Vizquel was the only available player Williams considered a worthy replacement for Uribe.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-ssep07.html

So says Doug Padilla. In the same article it confirms Randy Johnson is not an option.

I'm fine with Uribe as the everyday SS, but I'd still like to see a Polanco signing to split time at 2B and 3B.

Jjav829
12-07-2004, 07:46 AM
Bob Foltman has a quote from KW in the Trib today, stating the same thing.

"There was only one guy out there I would have displaced Uribe for and he's gone," said Williams, again referring to Vizquel. "[Uribe] is a guy who can play the heck out of the position."Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041206sox,1,4837298.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

That's fine with me. I just hope his plan includes finding a second baseman.

Also interesting from that article is KW's hinting at the Sox being close to accomplishing a good part of Plan B. Jaret Wright signing coming soon?

FightingBillini
12-07-2004, 07:48 AM
Im assuming by plan B he means plan AAA?

beck72
12-07-2004, 07:49 AM
In listening to KW's call, he said Vizquel was the only SS considered for plan A as a worthy replacement for Uribe. He never really said what plan B was, that they were still in that now. Padilla is making the judgement that no SS is part of plan B.

Soxzilla
12-07-2004, 07:56 AM
Im assuming by plan B he means plan AAA?
Plan AAAA

:LTP
"Bask in my glory ... BASK IN IT DAMN YOU!"

wdelaney72
12-07-2004, 08:16 AM
So let's get this straight, it was a good idea to upgrade Uribe with a 38 year old who's best years are way behind him, but Renteria is not a worthy upgrade over Uribe?

I'm all for upgrading the pitching staff instead of SS, but he's going to have to do something about 2B. We need more productivity at the plate from our infield. And no, Joe Crede's fixed mechanical problem doesn't count.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a FOKW, I just think landing Vizquel was not the be all end all priority this off season.

Don't rule out Johnson yet. The closer we get to ST and Johnson's is still looking at playing another year for that crappy team, he'll change his tune on the White Sox.

Frater Perdurabo
12-07-2004, 08:36 AM
We need more productivity at the plate from our infield. And no, Joe Crede's fixed mechanical problem doesn't count.


I think Joe Crede's fixed mechanical flaw (if it indeed is fixed) could go a long way to solidifying the Sox offense from within. I predict .275, 25 homers and 90 RBI from Crede. If so, a lineup "core" of Rowand, Frank, Lee, Konerko and Crede could produce lots of runs. Too bad there's not a lefty in the mix.

beck72
12-07-2004, 08:36 AM
So let's get this straight, it was a good idea to upgrade Uribe with a 38 year old who's best years are way behind him, but Renteria is not a worthy upgrade over Uribe?

I'm all for upgrading the pitching staff instead of SS, but he's going to have to do something about 2B. We need more productivity at the plate from our infield. And no, Joe Crede's fixed mechanical problem doesn't count.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a FOKW, I just think landing Vizquel was not the be all end all priority this off season.

Don't rule out Johnson yet. The closer we get to ST and Johnson's is still looking at playing another year for that crappy team, he'll change his tune on the White Sox.
I think you can rule out RJ.

But there is something not quite right in this picture. Plan A was to sign Vizquel and get RJ. That would have added $21 mill in salary. Yet plan B is to sign a FA SP [like Wright for $6 mill. and get a RH hitting backup for 2B who could be had for less than $1 mill]? Where would the other $14 mill be spent? I wouldn't rule out Renteria, who would fit KW's call for more balance and leadership in the middle If. KW may want Uribe as the starting SS but Ozzie probably wants Renteria.

"Plan B" is still going on. Where that money from "Plan A" will be spent remains to be seen.

munchman33
12-07-2004, 08:54 AM
Bob Foltman has a quote from KW in the Trib today, stating the same thing.

Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041206sox,1,4837298.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

That's fine with me. I just hope his plan includes finding a second baseman.

Also interesting from that article is KW's hinting at the Sox being close to accomplishing a good part of Plan B. Jaret Wright signing coming soon?
That's what Boston Gammons said today. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1940044)

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 09:18 AM
I think you can rule out RJ.

But there is something not quite right in this picture. Plan A was to sign Vizquel and get RJ. That would have added $21 mill in salary. Yet plan B is to sign a FA SP [like Wright for $6 mill. and get a RH hitting backup for 2B who could be had for less than $1 mill]? Where would the other $14 mill be spent? I wouldn't rule out Renteria, who would fit KW's call for more balance and leadership in the middle If. KW may want Uribe as the starting SS but Ozzie probably wants Renteria.

"Plan B" is still going on. Where that money from "Plan A" will be spent remains to be seen.
Remember, "Plan A" also involved dealing Konerko+Garland for RJ (or how did you think he was going to get him?). That subtracts about 11-12mil in salary, leaving a net increase from Plan A of about 10mil. Which is about what Wright+a couple of $1mil guys for the pen & OF/IF will cost.

southsider17
12-07-2004, 09:24 AM
I think you can rule out RJ.

But there is something not quite right in this picture. Plan A was to sign Vizquel and get RJ. That would have added $21 mill in salary. Yet plan B is to sign a FA SP [like Wright for $6 mill. and get a RH hitting backup for 2B who could be had for less than $1 mill]? Where would the other $14 mill be spent? I wouldn't rule out Renteria, who would fit KW's call for more balance and leadership in the middle If. KW may want Uribe as the starting SS but Ozzie probably wants Renteria.

"Plan B" is still going on. Where that money from "Plan A" will be spent remains to be seen.Plan A also probably called for Konerko and Garland to go to Arizona thus making the added $21 mil in salary more like a net of $9 mil. Plan B might just be an additional $9 mil in FAs.

:reinsy "What?! My accountants come up with $0 for Plan B. I think I'll stick with their numbers"

California Sox
12-07-2004, 10:16 AM
I think Joe Crede's fixed mechanical flaw (if it indeed is fixed) could go a long way to solidifying the Sox offense from within. I predict .275, 25 homers and 90 RBI from Crede. If so, a lineup "core" of Rowand, Frank, Lee, Konerko and Crede could produce lots of runs. Too bad there's not a lefty in the mix.
I really root for Crede but he's been good for about 8 weeks of major league play and awful the rest of the time. I hope plan B isn't "...and the two Joes shall carry us."

As for the left-handed hitter. I think we're waiting for Ryan Sweeney's arrival in 2008. There does not seem to be plans to acquire (or hold onto) any LHs before then.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 10:20 AM
I really root for Crede but he's been good for about 8 weeks of major league play and awful the rest of the time. I hope plan B isn't "...and the two Joes shall carry us."

As for the left-handed hitter. I think we're waiting for Ryan Sweeney's arrival in 2008. There does not seem to be plans to acquire (or hold onto) any LHs before then.I guess I have more faith in Walker than I do in Crede. Walker said before 2004 that Konerko had fixed his flaw and was going to do well. I guess he nailed that one. Now he's saying the same things about Crede, and judging from Walker's past performance, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Now if we can just get him to work some magic on Borchard, he'd be the next statue out on the concourse.

MisterB
12-07-2004, 10:23 AM
So let's get this straight, it was a good idea to upgrade Uribe with a 38 year old who's best years are way behind him, but Renteria is not a worthy upgrade over Uribe?:KW
"Vizquel was the only worthy replacement......
.......in our price range."

voodoochile
12-07-2004, 10:39 AM
No RJ...

No SS...

Anyone else get the impression this is just the tip of the "No (insert FA position or name here)..." threads we'll be seeing over the next few months.

No soup for us...:(:

CubKilla
12-07-2004, 10:41 AM
So let's get this straight, it was a good idea to upgrade Uribe with a 38 year old who's best years are way behind him, but Renteria is not a worthy upgrade over Uribe?
The difference between Vizquel and Renteria is $$$$$ and the dollar speaks volumes for this ball club.

doublem23
12-07-2004, 10:43 AM
No RJ...

No SS...

Anyone else get the impression this is just the tip of the "No (insert FA position or name here)..." threads we'll be seeing over the next few months.

No soup for us...:(:Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see too many guys coming in to fill holes on the field (maybe a mediocre corner outfielder to challenge for RF next year), but I still have some hope that the Sox will be able to bring a couple of pitchers in here to shore up the rotation and staff. Even before last season ended, KW was making pretty strong indications that that seems to be the direction he wants to use the money allocated to him. But honestly, it would not surprise me to see the Sox field an Opening Day lineup of Lee, Rowand, Everett, Crede, Uribe, Harris, Konerko, and Davis.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 11:03 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see too many guys coming in to fill holes on the field (maybe a mediocre corner outfielder to challenge for RF next year), but I still have some hope that the Sox will be able to bring a couple of pitchers in here to shore up the rotation and staff. Even before last season ended, KW was making pretty strong indications that that seems to be the direction he wants to use the money allocated to him. But honestly, it would not surprise me to see the Sox field an Opening Day lineup of Lee, Rowand, Everett, Crede, Uribe, Harris, Konerko, and Davis.I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd rather go into 2005 with the same offense and an improved pitching staff than with an improved offense and the same pitching staff. I'd rather KW spend EVERY DIME he has available on pitching.

doublem23
12-07-2004, 11:04 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd rather go into 2005 with the same offense and an improved pitching staff than with an improved offense and the same pitching staff. I'd rather KW spend EVERY DIME he has available on pitching.As has been the case for the last few years, we desperately need a lead-off man who can get on base consistently all season. Uribe/Harris are nice, but they really have to step up their game this year.

:hurt :caballo :walnuts
Who are we supposed to drive in?

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 11:11 AM
As has been the case for the last few years, we desperately need a lead-off man who can get on base consistently all season. Uribe/Harris are nice, but they really have to step up their game this year.


Who are we supposed to drive in?I don't disagree. Offensively, a leadoff hitter is the #1 priority. But I would still put that AFTER improving both the starting rotation and the bullpen.
:caballo:walnuts:hurt
How many guys are we going to have to drive in?

mweflen
12-07-2004, 11:18 AM
Priority#1 a solid 3 starter to push Garland to 5
Priority#2 a productive OF to replace Magglio
Priority#3 a solid 4 starter to allow a Contreras trade (my personal addition)
Priority#4 a catcher who can hit .250+ and call a good game
Priority#5 an upgrade at 2B.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 11:23 AM
Priority#1 a solid 3 starter to push Garland to 5
Priority#2 a productive OF to replace Magglio
Priority#3 a solid 4 starter to allow a Contreras trade (my personal addition)
Priority#4 a catcher who can hit .250+ and call a good game
Priority#5 an upgrade at 2B.More or less agree, although I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Contreras. But I would insert bullpen help as the #2 priority. And I would focus on a leadoff hitter more than what position he plays. A CF/RF that can lead off would be a great pickup (Juan Pierre, anyone?).

Wealz
12-07-2004, 11:28 AM
More or less agree, although I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Contreras. But I would insert bullpen help as the #2 priority. And I would focus on a leadoff hitter more than what position he plays. A CF/RF that can lead off would be a great pickup (Juan Pierre, anyone?).
An elite hitter (Drew or Beltre) should be their #1 priority because they don't have a healthy one.

mweflen
12-07-2004, 11:35 AM
More or less agree, although I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Contreras. But I would insert bullpen help as the #2 priority. And I would focus on a leadoff hitter more than what position he plays. A CF/RF that can lead off would be a great pickup (Juan Pierre, anyone?).Priority 3 can be amended to make Contreras or Garland the right handed bullpen help.

I thought you were sold on Willie's improvement in OBP and base stealing?

beck72
12-07-2004, 11:37 AM
Plan A also probably called for Konerko and Garland to go to Arizona thus making the added $21 mil in salary more like a net of $9 mil. Plan B might just be an additional $9 mil in FAs.

Actually, it wouldn't be $21 mill in new salary. If PK and Jon were traded for RJ, the amount spent on players in "plan A" would have been at minimum, $17.6 mill. I forgot to subtract Garland's $3.4 mill salary [after adding all the signed players on the sox roster for 2005-not including the young players who will get arb. increases, but just their 2004 salaries, and the 2005 payroll would have been over $70 mill--that is if RJ and Vizquel were added, PK and Garland subtracted---a starting figure of $49.6 mill] With Pk subtracted and Garland still here, the Sox payroll for 20 players would be $53.29 mill, w/o adding the increases for the young players but adding up their 2004 salaries].

So if Plan B follows the same cash as Plan A, the new plan could add at minimum, $17.6 mill in new players--factoring in Pk being traded.

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 11:46 AM
Actually, it wouldn't be $21 mill in new salary. If PK and Jon were traded for RJ, the amount spent on players in "plan A" would have been at minimum, $17.6 mill. I forgot to subtract Garland's $3.4 mill salary [after adding all the signed players on the sox roster for 2005-not including the young players who will get arb. increases, but just their 2004 salaries, and the 2005 payroll would have been over $70 mill--that is if RJ and Vizquel were added, PK and Garland subtracted---a starting figure of $49.6 mill] With Pk subtracted and Garland still here, the Sox payroll for 20 players would be $53.29 mill, w/o adding the increases for the young players but adding up their 2004 salaries].

So if Plan B follows the same cash as Plan A, the new plan could add at minimum, $17.6 mill in new players--factoring in Pk being traded.
So by your math, RJ (16) + Vizquel (5) - Garland (3.4) - Konerko (8.75) = 17.6?:?:

Again - in "plan A", Konerko leaves the Sox as part of RJ's acquisition. Thus his salary leaves as well, reducing the Sox commitment by that 8.75mil. Taking that off of your 17.6 # above = about 9mil, not 17mil.

southsider17
12-07-2004, 12:02 PM
So by your math, RJ (16) + Vizquel (5) - Garland (3.4) - Konerko (8.75) = 17.6?:?:

Again - in "plan A", Konerko leaves the Sox as part of RJ's acquisition. Thus his salary leaves as well, reducing the Sox commitment by that 8.75mil. Taking that off of your 17.6 # above = about 9mil, not 17mil.
Yeah, like I said. :?:

Brian26
12-07-2004, 12:18 PM
I'm extremely disappointed we aren't (apparently) even making an attempt to sign Renteria to play short and move Uribe over to second. This just seems like it would be such a fix in so many ways for this club.

wdelaney72
12-07-2004, 01:15 PM
Contreras is not going anywhere. Kenny took a huge gamble on this one. I'm a FOKW and I admire his effort to improve the pitching staff, but $6 per year is too much for a guy who has not lived up to a fraction of his expectations.

Given the fact that (AND I'M PAINTING WITH A BROAD BRUSH HERE) outfielders tend to be more power-type hitters, I would place upgrading the infield WAY above upgrading RF. Carl will start at RF... period. His salary already dictates that. If Frank is not ready, he'll DH and I think we'll actually see Timo Perez handle RF duties, not LTP (Thank God). It would be nice to have a fraction of Maggs productivity, but I would rather have more average / OBP type hitters before we add another HR hitter.

Agreed on Priority #1. Garland needs to be AT BEST, our #5 pitcher. I'm also concerned about our catcher's ability to call a game. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but our SP performance with Uncle Ben behind the dish was less than impressive. If that blame should be placed elsewhere, please feel free to correct my speculation.

Priority#1 a solid 3 starter to push Garland to 5
Priority#2 a productive OF to replace Magglio
Priority#3 a solid 4 starter to allow a Contreras trade (my personal addition)
Priority#4 a catcher who can hit .250+ and call a good game
Priority#5 an upgrade at 2B.

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 01:28 PM
Agreed on Priority #1. Garland needs to be AT BEST, our #5 pitcher.
Jon Garland is among the better #4 pitchers in the game. I'm all for upgrading and making him our #5, but people talk like he's a failure in any slot of the rotation. For reference, he ranked 50th in MLB WHIP, 42d in GB/FB ratio, 71st in K/BB, and 67th in ERA. Given that there are 30 teams, he actually ranks more like a #3.

Of course, a team with designs on the playoffs has to be better than average at a number of slots, which is why you push Jon to #4 or #5. At that slot, the Sox would then have one of, if not the strongest #4 or 5 pitcher in baseball.

Jon's problem is that he could be a #1 or #2. But the fact that he's not that doesn't mean hes a #6. He's a solid #3 or 4 pitcher with upside remaining.

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 01:32 PM
An elite hitter (Drew or Beltre) should be their #1 priority because they don't have a healthy one.....and both are represented by Boras. I also like how you consider Drew a "healthy option" too, not that I wouldn't mind having him.

:reinsy<---------Represnted by Scott Boras? Not Happening

SoxxoS
12-07-2004, 01:34 PM
Jon Garland is among the better #4 pitchers in the game. I'm all for upgrading and making him our #5, but people talk like he's a failure in any slot of the rotation. For reference, he ranked 50th in MLB WHIP, 42d in GB/FB ratio, 71st in K/BB, and 67th in ERA. Given that there are 30 teams, he actually ranks more like a #3.

Of course, a team with designs on the playoffs has to be better than average at a number of slots, which is why you push Jon to #4 or #5. At that slot, the Sox would then have one of, if not the strongest #4 or 5 pitcher in baseball.

Jon's problem is that he could be a #1 or #2. But the fact that he's not that doesn't mean hes a #6. He's a solid #3 or 4 pitcher with upside remaining.
If Garland wasn't so freaking hyped up, we would have no problem with him being the #4 starter. It's because he was so highly touted and brings his A game every third month or so (see that 1 hitter against Boston in June 2002) everyone thinks he isn't very good. Garland is a fine 4th starter and would be one of the best #5 starters in the game today.

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 01:35 PM
So by your math, RJ (16) + Vizquel (5) - Garland (3.4) - Konerko (8.75) = 17.6?:?:

Again - in "plan A", Konerko leaves the Sox as part of RJ's acquisition. Thus his salary leaves as well, reducing the Sox commitment by that 8.75mil. Taking that off of your 17.6 # above = about 9mil, not 17mil.
After seeing the contract Omar signed with SF, I wouldn't doubt that the contract we offered him had deffered money too. I believe Omar is only geting paid $2.75 million by the Giants for next season.

beck72
12-07-2004, 01:55 PM
So by your math, RJ (16) + Vizquel (5) - Garland (3.4) - Konerko (8.75) = 17.6?:?:

Again - in "plan A", Konerko leaves the Sox as part of RJ's acquisition. Thus his salary leaves as well, reducing the Sox commitment by that 8.75mil. Taking that off of your 17.6 # above = about 9mil, not 17mil.
What I'm going by is how much total [at the minimum] salary the sox would have committed to the 2005 roster, going by what moves they publicly wanted to make. Without PK and Garland's salary, [w/ the Ariz deal] the sox payroll would have been $49.6 mill---w/o raises factored in to guys w/ less experience]. Add RJ's $16 mill + Vizquels $5 mill. and total payroll would have been more than $70 mill at minimum.

PK should be traded this offseason and Garland still on the team, so the sox payroll would be at $53 mill before any FA's are signed. That's where I get the $17.6 mill. available for other players.

cbrownson13
12-07-2004, 02:49 PM
I'm fine with Uribe as the everyday SS, but I'd still like to see a Polanco signing to split time at 2B and 3B.
Yes. Placido Polanco would be a huge pickup for this team. He's exactly the guy Williams and Ozzie talk about. Can hit at the top of the order, hits for a pretty good average, plays defense, and while he's not a big stolen base threat, he can run the bases well.

A Clement/Wright/Perez/or Ortiz signing along with a Placido Polanco signing would be very good.