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View Full Version : Good article on AL Central from ESPN.com


chisoxmike
12-06-2004, 07:22 PM
Interesting read.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=1938174

OG4LIFE
12-06-2004, 07:44 PM
excellent article. nice post.

chisoxmike
12-06-2004, 07:46 PM
Most interesting tidbit...


And, measured in the same time frame, the gap between the second-place White Sox and the rest of the Central is even greater than the distance between Minnesota and Chicago.

Here's the Central, 2002-04:



1. Minnesota, 276-209.
2. White Sox, 250-236, 26 GB.
3. Cleveland, 222-264, 54 GB.
4. Kansas City, 203-283, 73 GB.
5. Detroit, 170-315, 106 GM.

dcb33
12-06-2004, 08:12 PM
We're the Wile E. Coyote of the Central! If that doesn't sum up the White Sox I don't know what does!

:rolling: (http://misc.php/?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#) :rolling::rolling: (http://misc.php/?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#) :rolling::rolling: (http://misc.php/?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#) :rolling:

santo=dorf
12-06-2004, 08:18 PM
I gotta disagree with Phil on this.

In 2003 the Twins were in third place at the all-star break, 8 1/2 games out. They didn't take control of that division until the sweep at the HHH dome in late September. :whiner: :angry: Kansas City was the team dominating the division in 2003 and this year the Sox lead the division at Memorial day, and at the All-Star Break (remember that? and some people didn't think the Sox had a chance with a healthy frank and Maggs.) The Twins pretty much dominated the AL Central in August and September in 2004, half of September of 2003, and most of 2002 after Cleveland fell off of the map.

chisoxmike
12-06-2004, 08:24 PM
I gotta disagree with Phil on this.

In 2003 the Twins were in third place at the all-star break, 8 1/2 games out. They didn't take control of that division until the sweep at the HHH dome in late September. :whiner: :angry: Kansas City was the team dominating the division in 2003 and this year the Sox lead the division at Memorial day, and at the All-Star Break (remember that? and some people didn't think the Sox had a chance with a healthy frank and Maggs.) The Twins pretty much dominated the AL Central in August and September in 2004, half of September of 2003, and most of 2002 after Cleveland fell off of the map.
You're exactly right. Thats why I dont understand why the Twins are the darlings of the baseball world/media. We've give them a run for their money in 2003 and 2004 until we choke it up. The White Sox were predicted to win the central in 2002, and 2003. The Twins get hot when the Sox get cold. Thats how its worked for the past two years. Imagine after they swept us this year at the cell, the sox winning the games against the Tigers, Royals, and Indians and not pissing them away. It would've been a much more fun August and September.

dcb33
12-06-2004, 08:28 PM
You're exactly right. Thats why I dont understand why the Twins are the darlings of the baseball world/media. We've give them a run for their money in 2003 and 2004 until we choke it up. The White Sox were predicted to win the central in 2002, and 2003. The Twins get hot when the Sox get cold. Thats how its worked for the past two years. Imagine after they swept us this year at the cell, the sox winning the games against the Tigers, Royals, and Indians and not pissing them away. It would've been a much more fun August and September.
The Twins are the darlings of baseball because they're the cute little small market team that always manages to pull out the division when everything is stacked against them. Considering the amount of time these national reporters spend covering the "Comedy Central" as they like to call it, does it suprsie you that they don't know what they are talking about?

munchman33
12-06-2004, 09:13 PM
This is the year that everyone, even our beloved Phil Rogers, is counting us out. The pressures off. That's exactly what this team needs to succeed.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-06-2004, 11:14 PM
You're exactly right. Thats why I dont understand why the Twins are the darlings of the baseball world/media. We've give them a run for their money in 2003 and 2004 until we choke it up. The White Sox were predicted to win the central in 2002, and 2003. The Twins get hot when the Sox get cold. Thats how its worked for the past two years. Imagine after they swept us this year at the cell, the sox winning the games against the Tigers, Royals, and Indians and not pissing them away. It would've been a much more fun August and September.
I think the world likes the fact that the Twins have overcome an even cheaper owner than Reinsdorf and the fact that they fought off the evil plan of JR and his puppet Bud Selig to destroy two franchises.

While I like the Sox, I would have loved to have seen a Twins vs. Expos World Series to stick it up the buts of JR & Bud Ultra Light.

Bud finally dropped the Brewers and it is about time JR follows suit and leaves baseball "For the good of the game".

chisox06
12-07-2004, 01:13 AM
Great article points out some very good things. For instance, it shows that KW truly is one of the worst GM's in baseball. Also, it shows how so easily winnable the AL Central is, and how the sox are consistently walking the line of mediocrity in a division where you would think the team in the 3rd largest market would dominate.

It could even be this year where its not going to be just the Sox and Twins anymore, Cleveland is going to be there, if not this year then the next. Detroit keeps making some good moves, although they are farther off than the Cleveland. Point is, I have a feeling soon the sox will be fighting for 2nd place rather than 1st in this craptacular division if this organization continues on the path its in.

And the sox, rather than doing what makes the Twins successful, which is holding on to their homegrown talent.The sox do the opposite and trade all their top prospects away, (In Everett's case twice as many which till this day boggles my mind of how ridiculously stupid that is), for this win now attitude, which we all know has not worked out at all what so ever. If we're trying to win now, and the term "now" applies to anywhere between 1-100 yrs then we still got a chance.

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 01:22 AM
Great article points out some very good things. For instance, it shows that KW truly is one of the worst GM's in baseball. Also, it shows how so easily winnable the AL Central is, and how the sox are consistently walking the line of mediocrity in a division where you would think the team in the 3rd largest market would dominate.

It could even be this year where its not going to be just the Sox and Twins anymore, Cleveland is going to be there, if not this year then the next. Detroit keeps making some good moves, although they are farther off than the Cleveland. Point is, I have a feeling soon the sox will be fighting for 2nd place rather than 1st in this craptacular division if this organization continues on the path its in.

And the sox, rather than doing what makes the Twins successful, which is holding on to their homegrown talent.The sox do the opposite and trade all their top prospects away, (In Everett's case twice as many which till this day boggles my mind of how ridiculously stupid that is), for this win now attitude, which we all know has not worked out at all what so ever. If we're trying to win now, and the term "now" applies to anywhere between 1-100 yrs then we still got a chance.You don't have any idea on what you're talking about.

:chickenlittle


Terry Ryan has been the GM since 1994. Until 2001, his teams never had a winning season, and finished in last place 3 times, and had 4 fourth place finishes. I could only imagine how posters like yourself would react if KW got results like this for 7 seasons. :rolleyes:

nodiggity59
12-07-2004, 01:30 AM
For instance, it shows that KW truly is one of the worst GM's in baseball.
:roflmao:

nodiggity59
12-07-2004, 01:33 AM
You don't have an idea what you're talking about.

:chickenlittle


Terry Ryan has been the GM since 1994. Until 2001, his teams never had a winning season, and finished in last place 3 times, and had 4 fourth place finishes. I could only imagine how posters like yourself would react if KW got results like this for 7 seasons. :rolleyes:
Exactly. Without Santana this year, the Twins wouldn't have been jack. Combine that with the Maggs-Thomas injuries and I'd say Ryan got pretty damn lucky this year (especially given the fact that his track record indicates his is a poor GM who's had a few good years).

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 03:22 AM
Exactly. Without Santana this year, the Twins wouldn't have been jack. Combine that with the Maggs-Thomas injuries and I'd say Ryan got pretty damn lucky this year (especially given the fact that his track record indicates his is a poor GM who's had a few good years).FOR THE LOVE OF GOD could we stop it already with the "Twins got lucky" talk?

Three years in a row is not luck, no matter how you want to spin it. The Twins have been better BY DESIGN (as a wise man once said, "luck is the residue of design"). They don't trade away all their young talent, and therefore have been better able to fill holes when they've arisen, through injury or what have you. Sure, they would have been worse without Santana. And the Red Sox wouldn't have won the world series without Schilling...and the Yankees wouldn't have won 100 games without Sheffield...yadayadayada.

Agreed, the white sox SHOULD be better than they've been the last three years. But they have no one to blame but themselves...Not the Twins, not the 'baseball gods,' NO ONE. Get over it already people...

cbrownson13
12-07-2004, 03:30 AM
Exactly. Without Santana this year, the Twins wouldn't have been jack. Combine that with the Maggs-Thomas injuries and I'd say Ryan got pretty damn lucky this year (especially given the fact that his track record indicates his is a poor GM who's had a few good years).

A lot of teams wouldn't be jack without their best player/pitcher. I think the White Sox exemplified that last year without Magglio and Frank.

doublem23
12-07-2004, 04:34 AM
Agreed, the white sox SHOULD be better than they've been the last three years. But they have no one to blame but themselves...Not the Twins, not the 'baseball gods,' NO ONE. Get over it already people...:hurt :maggs
We have more talent in our little fingers combined than your starting lineup. You got lucky.

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 04:53 AM
We have more talent in our little fingers combined than your starting lineup. You got lucky.
I don't deny that those are two talented little fingers. Isn't it funny, though, that that those two little fingers have failed for three years in a row now to bring the rest of the body with them?

Let's be serious...The Sox are not a deep, well balanced team. I would kill to have Frank and Maggs in the middle of the Twins lineup, don't get me wrong...But not at the expense of trading away half the farm system, or a pitching staff that ranked near the top of the AL last year. It's been said many times before on this board and I'll say it again: One or even two studs will not bring a championship. You need a whole team to do that. The Twins have closer to that than the White Sox do. This is a fact.

So, again, I will say that it is not luck. Especially if it's happened three years in a row. To say otherwise is nothing but sour grapes, and you know that.

Whitesoxtom
12-07-2004, 09:54 AM
What a joke. When is Jerry going to fire Williams? After we trade Ryan Sweeney for Roberto Alomar at the 2005 trading deadline?

Everyone talks about how hard Williams tries. Big deal, every GM tries. He tries, and fails 100% of the time. Will Freddy Garcia be worth it when we watch Jeremy Reed hit .320 for the next 10 years? I think not. We could have signed Ozzie's son for nothing right now.

This off season we have watched Jason Kendall go to Oakland for peanuts. He probably rejected the White Sox with his no trade clause. We watched Williams let Vizquel slip through our fingers. Then we hear Williams tell us how Uribe is the man. Please, Uribe is only the man because Reinsdorf can't get 80% of the players in the league to come here. Players hate this man more than we do.

WIllie Harris? Did you guys watch him after the All Star break? He sucks and is not an option for a contender.

Randy Johnson won't come to the team that had the third most wins in the 90's? If thats not a slap in the face, I don't know what is.
I have never been more frustrated as a White Sox fan.

I never truly believed this until today, but Kenny Williams needs to go. He needs to go now. Randy Johnson should be here, but this man and his inability to build a winner kept it from happening.

I hope fans at Sox Fest rip Williams harder then they did last year.

gosox41
12-07-2004, 10:02 AM
This is the year that everyone, even our beloved Phil Rogers, is counting us out. The pressures off. That's exactly what this team needs to succeed.

What this team needs is a competent GM to succeeed.

Had do throw it out there.


Bob

misty60481
12-07-2004, 10:25 AM
I agree with Whitesoxtom nobody wants to play for JR and I dont blame them, add Larry Walker and Carlos Delgado to that list as they more or less just laughed when there names were mentioned as possibly coming to Southside..KW is a big mouthed no talented GM and Ozzie isnt much better..Maybe some of these FAs talked to Carlton Fisk about how generous Uncle Jerry is to his stars at contract time..

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 11:44 AM
For the record the Twins have finished better then the White Sox the past four seasons...not three. that's not luck folks.

Munchman says: "This is the year that everyone, even our beloved Phil Rogers, is counting us out. The pressures off. That's exactly what this team needs to succeed."

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Suuuuuurrrrrrreeeeee.......

Lip

doublem23
12-07-2004, 11:47 AM
Randy Johnson should be here, but this man and his inability to build a winner kept it from happening.

:reinsy
And who is going to pay him?

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 01:23 PM
For the record the Twins have finished better then the White Sox the past four seasons...not three. that's not luck folks.

Correction noted. Thanks for the reminder...And thanks most of all for your common sense!

p.s. If/when the White Sox start finishing in first regularly, you can bet I will be one of their staunchest defenders in TwinsNation.

chisoxmike
12-07-2004, 01:25 PM
Correction noted. Thanks for the reminder...And thanks most of all for your common sense!

p.s. If/when the White Sox start finishing in first regularly, you can bet I will be one of their staunchest defenders in TwinsNation.
TwinsNation, please.

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 02:52 PM
What a joke. When is Jerry going to fire Williams? After we trade Ryan Sweeney for Roberto Alomar at the 2005 trading deadline?

Everyone talks about how hard Williams tries. Big deal, every GM tries. He tries, and fails 100% of the time. Will Freddy Garcia be worth it when we watch Jeremy Reed hit .320 for the next 10 years? I think not. We could have signed Ozzie's son for nothing right now.

This off season we have watched Jason Kendall go to Oakland for peanuts. He probably rejected the White Sox with his no trade clause. We watched Williams let Vizquel slip through our fingers. Then we hear Williams tell us how Uribe is the man. Please, Uribe is only the man because Reinsdorf can't get 80% of the players in the league to come here. Players hate this man more than we do.

WIllie Harris? Did you guys watch him after the All Star break? He sucks and is not an option for a contender.

Randy Johnson won't come to the team that had the third most wins in the 90's? If thats not a slap in the face, I don't know what is.
I have never been more frustrated as a White Sox fan.

I never truly believed this until today, but Kenny Williams needs to go. He needs to go now. Randy Johnson should be here, but this man and his inability to build a winner kept it from happening.

I hope fans at Sox Fest rip Williams harder then they did last year.
Kendall had a no trade clause and only wanted to play on the West Coast, so unless you want Uncle Jerry to try and move this team again, Kendall wasn't coming here to catch in 40 degree weather in April.

Randy Johnson didn't want to come to Chicago, that was his decision. He wanted to go to New York, St. Louis, and Anaheim. What do their payrolls look like?

SF offered more money, and a guaranteed third year. Williams would be stupid to give a 38 year old 3 guaranteed years.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jeremy Reed hit .320 for the next 10 years because I'll be too busy celebrating the White Sox winning the World Series behind the dominant pitching of Buehrle and Garcia.

"He tries, and fails 100% of the time."

:rolling:

Yeah, he really got burned on the Marte trade, Gload trade, Loaiza signing, shingo signing, Gordon signing, Robero Alomar 2003 trade (2 of the 3 prospects have been released, and the other is left unprotected in the rule 5 draft,) the Uribe deal, signing Garcia to an extension (look at this year's free agnet market. Garcia would've gotten double digits easily,) and Scott Sullivan trades didn't he?

:chickenlittle

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 03:38 PM
We could have signed Ozzie's son for nothing right now.That's probably what the Yankees were thinking. How'd that work out for them?

chisox06
12-07-2004, 04:16 PM
Yeah, he really got burned on the Marte trade, Gload trade, Loaiza signing, shingo signing, Gordon signing, Robero Alomar 2003 trade (2 of the 3 prospects have been released, and the other is left unprotected in the rule 5 draft,) the Uribe deal, signing Garcia to an extension (look at this year's free agnet market. Garcia would've gotten double digits easily,) and Scott Sullivan trades didn't he?

Im having a hard time understanding how you can constantly defend KW when we haven't won jack for 4 straight years in the weakest division in baseball. You can specualte all you want, but that is the bottom line.

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 04:18 PM
Im having a hard time understanding how you can constantly defend KW when we haven't won jack for 4 straight years in the weakest division in baseball. You can specualte all you want, but that is the bottom line.
Because the players each have their own responsiblity, as does the manager.

Whose fault was in 2003?

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 04:19 PM
Im having a hard time understanding how you can constantly defend KW when we haven't won jack for 4 straight years in the weakest division in baseball. You can specualte all you want, but that is the bottom line.There are a few other teams around who haven't won for 4 straight years. Do all their GM's suck, too?

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 04:37 PM
There are a few other teams around who haven't won for 4 straight years. Do all their GM's suck, too?
Bill Stoneman: didn't win between 1997-2001
Billy Beane: didn't win between 1997-2000 (made the playoffs starting in 2001, much like KW was on track to pre-injury in 2004).
Terry Ryan: didn't win between 1995 & 2001

Man, those guys all sucked. How they kept their jobs is beyond me.

ma-gaga
12-07-2004, 04:57 PM
one of their staunchest defenders in TwinsNation.There's a nation?

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

I can't find them here. :cool:

LVSoxFan
12-07-2004, 05:20 PM
My two cents FWIW:


The Sox as the Wile Y. Coyote of the Comedy Central? :gulp:

OMG ain't that the freakin' truth. Truer words have never been spoken. Bonus depressing fact: I forgot that we finished 26 games behind Minnesota--oof!

That's a pretty doomsday assessment of the Sox for '05, I have to say. Where I disagree is at SS--I think Uribe's gonna be great, and it ain't a bad feeling to have Valdez as a backup. After Valentin's Sosa-like homer-or-whiff season, hell: Uribe's gonna seem like a godsend.

But what gets doubly depressing is when you consider we're consistently the also ran for... the Comedy Central. We can't even win the division, and even the Comedy Central winners of the past five years get smoked in the playoffs. Minnesota, for all their dominance this season, sure didn't last long against the Yankees.

I agree that Cleveland is poised to run over us and claim that second spot--I saw enough games in person against them to see them give us fits.

And Detroit I think everybody's underrating. People forget that the Sox have always struggled against Detroit, even when the Tigers sucked horribly. It was a trend that put the nail in the coffin (after the post-Twins' series collapse in July) this past year: inexplicable losses to a weak-on-paper Tigers team.

To me the big questions are 5th starter (really that before all else) and right field. I can live with our catchers, Crede can have on more chance to prove himself (same with Willie) and if Paulie's staying that's fine with me. Borchard is a $5MM bust that only KW could have come up with.

And if the Sox don't at LEAST win the division this year, I say: time to clean house, starting with KW.

I do have to say, though: signing Clement would be sweet. However, if the Yankees really want him, forget about it.

Whitesoxtom
12-07-2004, 05:58 PM
Yeah, he really got burned on the Marte trade, Gload trade, Loaiza signing, shingo signing, Gordon signing, Robero Alomar 2003 trade (2 of the 3 prospects have been released, and the other is left unprotected in the rule 5 draft,) the Uribe deal, signing Garcia to an extension (look at this year's free agnet market. Garcia would've gotten double digits easily,) and Scott Sullivan trades didn't he?

LOL, I love it when guys defend Ken Williams. Fanboys crack me up. Wlliams is the laughing stock of the baseball world. This guy traded for two players TWICE in two years. You can't get much more pathetic than that. His statements in the last few days make me want to puke, the guy is a joke. Five quality shortstops on the market and he can't sign one of them? Pathetic.

The Loazia and Shingo signings were great, Gordon was also good. Gload? Please, he is not the answer. He had some nice production in limited ABs, but I don't see him as an everyday player. Ken Williams thinks so. He also thinks Ben Davis is a good catcher.

This team has been in a downward spiral for three years now. If you think the future looks bright, prove it.

As Williams trades away our once dominating farm system, we watch players leave via free agency because we cannot afford to pay them. Williams has a "I want to win now attitiude" Pretty soon he won't have any quality prospects to trade. At least other small market teams like us build from within and don't bring in players they can't afford to keep. Spare me the Garcia trade, we overpaid.

For every good move you mentioned, I can name two bad ones. So OK, Williams fails 66.% of the time. He still sucks.

I used to be a fanboy like you, stood behind Williams, actually thought he had a plan. Now I just watch players leave and hear about how scrubs like Burke, Davis, Gload, Harris are solid replacements.

I read the BS Williams quotes just like everyone else. To bad most of you buy it. He alienates agents, scold his players via the press (Rauch) and makes bad moves. You support him, it's your right. I refuse to.

I know it's early and we will make moves. But unless it is something significant, we may be looking up at not only Minnesota, but Cleveland and Detroit as well.

The truth hurts, and unfortunatly to many fans are in denial.


BTW, I normally don't bash on the Sox like this, but after reading articles this morning, I blew my top. I know I'm not alone.

chisox06
12-07-2004, 06:03 PM
LOL, I love it when guys defend Ken Williams. Fanboys crack me up. Wlliams is the laughing stock of the baseball world. This guy traded for two players TWICE in two years. You can't get much more pathetic than that. His statements in the last few days make me want to puke, the guy is a joke. Five quality shortstops on the market and he can't sign one of them? Pathetic.

The Loazia and Shingo signings were great, Gordon was also good. Gload? Please, he is not the answer. He had some nice production in limited ABs, but I don't see him as an everyday player. Ken Williams thinks so. He also thinks Ben Davis is a good catcher.

This team has been in a downward spiral for three years now. If you think the future looks bright, prove it.

As Williams trades away our once dominating farm system, we watch players leave via free agency because we cannot afford to pay them. Williams has a "I want to win now attitiude" Pretty soon he won't have any quality prospects to trade. At least other small market teams like us build from within and don't bring in players they can't afford to keep. Spare me the Garcia trade, we overpaid.

For every good move you mentioned, I can name two bad ones. So OK, Williams fails 66.% of the time. He still sucks.

I used to be a fanboy like you, stood behind Williams, actually thought he had a plan. Now I just watch players leave and hear about how scrubs like Burke, Davis, Gload, Harris are solid replacements.

I read the BS Williams quotes just like everyone else. To bad most of you buy it. He alienates agents, scold his players via the press (Rauch) and makes bad moves. You support him, it's your right. I refuse to.

I know it's early and we will make moves. But unless it is something significant, we may be looking up at not only Minnesota, but Cleveland and Detroit as well.

The truth hurts, and unfortunatly to many fans are in denial.


BTW, I normally don't bash on the Sox like this, but after reading articles this morning, I blew my top. I know I'm not alone.
Booyah, couldnt have said it better myself.

maurice
12-07-2004, 06:11 PM
The baseless "KW decimates the farm system with trades" argument has been thoroughly debunked many times on this board. Thankfully, nobody has raised it for several months . . . until today. Please identify these wonderful minor league prospects KW traded away. Jeremy Reed and . . . ?

I'll give KW the rest of this offseason to get something done. So far, he's 0-for-3. There are good reasons for all three misses but, if he really has a $70 mil. budget, he ought to be able to get two more pitchers and at least one OBP upgrade by the start of the season. I'm sick of the mid-season upgrade nonsense.

chisox06
12-07-2004, 06:33 PM
The baseless "KW decimates the farm system with trades" argument has been thoroughly debunked many times on this board. Thankfully, nobody has raised it for several months . . . until today. Please identify these wonderful minor league prospects KW traded away. Jeremy Reed and . . . ?

I'll give KW the rest of this offseason to get something done. So far, he's 0-for-3. There are good reasons for all three misses but, if he really has a $70 mil. budget, he ought to be able to get two more pitchers and at least one OBP upgrade by the start of the season. I'm sick of the mid-season upgrade nonsense.
While I certainly understand that argument you can just as easily flip it around and say, well what have the players KW has traded for done for the sox? Bottom line is, absolutely nothing. So for all these so called "difference makers" KW has brought aboard the past 4 years, helped this team finish a total of 26 games behind Minnesota. So we traded for players who DIDN'T get the job done(also the majority of them on the tail end of their careers), and threw away players that could be possible difference makers in the future. Will all those prospects we traded away be any good in the future, who knows? But the players we've gotten in return have already proven its not enough to put this team over the top.

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 06:41 PM
While I certainly understand that argument you can just as easily flip it around and say, well what have the players KW has traded for done for the sox? Bottom line is, absolutely nothing. So for all these so called "difference makers" KW has brought aboard the past 4 years, helped this team finish a total of 26 games behind Minnesota. So we traded for players who DIDN'T get the job done(also the majority of them on the tail end of their careers), and threw away players that could be possible difference makers in the future. Will all those prospects we traded away be any good in the future, who knows? But the players we've gotten in return have already proven its not enough to put this team over the top.

Alomar 2003: Salvo was released, Almonte was released by two organizations, and Royce Ring was demoted to AA and is now unprotected for the rule 5 draft. Roberto replaced Jimenez's crappy defense, and taught Harris some things about second.

Alomar 2004: Desperation move made by KW. The team was on a 7 game losing streak, Uribe hit .123 for July, and Harris was hitting .188 in July. It sucked but we didn't give up much.

Everett 2003: Was a much needed offensive upgrade in CF. Rowand was still recovering from his dirt bike accident, Harris and Borchard were called up to play CF. Frankie Francisco was good for the Rangers for the first half of the season (came up in May too,) but struggled in the second half and tossed a chair at a fan. Rupe is putting up decent numbers in the Rangers' AA system, and Webster is now left unprotected for the rule 5 draft.

Everett 2004: Frank went down, and we needed a bat to fill the void left by him. The trade was made in the middle of July when many teams were still competitive, so there weren't many options to get a replacement bat. Everett was pretty good when he first got here, but Ozzie get misusing him, and Everett got hurt. Why was Everett trying to steal second? http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/html/emoticons/huh.gif We gave up Jon Rauch, who has battled injuries, and was given 3 chances to impress the Sox, and he only did well when the Sox were out of it in September of 2002. Not surprisingly, he pitched pretty well with a pressure-less team, the Expos. Oh, he also when on the DL (again) when he was with the Expos. We also gave up Gary "the cat" Majewski. What does it say when a team loses a guy in the rule 5 draft, gets the guy back, trades the guy to LA for Osuna, and then receives him back for Baldwin? I think a lot of people are forgetting that we receive cash from the Expos, so we only paid Carl Everett the league minimum for 2004. We also paid the league minimum for Robbie and Everett back in 2003.

Koch trade: Horrible trade. Foulke was a whiney bitch who failed in the closer's role in 2002. He wanted it back, but Manuel decided to use Osuna and Marte. Foulke padded his numbers once he was removed from the closer's role. Hindsight 20/20, it was a horrible trade. JR didn't want to pay FOULKE $6 million in 2003, so they decided to pay Koch less in 2003, but guarantee him a second year worth a little more than what they would have paid Foulke. The worst possible scenario happened as Koch blew both years he was here, and Foulke was excellent in 2003.

Colon: He raped the Expos for Colon, and JR and KW offered him the largest contract for a pitcher in White Sox history (rumored to be around $36-39 million,) but he turned it down for a much larger deal in Anaheim. He had 18 wins with the Angels in 2004, but his ERA was over 5. I don't want to hear about this **** how "KW should've signed Colon as soon as he traded for him" because according to some sources, Colon didn't want to pitch here, and he was coming off a season in which he won 10 games in BOTH the NL and AL. KW used that money for Freddy Garcia ($9-12 million less, which is now looking like a STEAL with this market) and he also received two draft picks for losing Colon.

Look at the 2003 Sox of the second half. Before that horrible series against the Twins, the Sox had the second best record in the league. Guess who had a better record by one game? It was the Twins, who would go on to win 11 straight in a September where they played many games against the Tigers.

You can't possibly blame KW for 2003. He wanted to FIRE Manuel, but JR didn't want to because the Sox were the hosts of the All-Star game. Look at what Houston did this season. They fired their manager a day after the All-Star game, caught fire, and went to the playoffs.

dcb33
12-07-2004, 06:42 PM
The baseless "KW decimates the farm system with trades" argument has been thoroughly debunked many times on this board. Thankfully, nobody has raised it for several months . . . until today. Please identify these wonderful minor league prospects KW traded away. Jeremy Reed and . . . ?

I'll give KW the rest of this offseason to get something done. So far, he's 0-for-3. There are good reasons for all three misses but, if he really has a $70 mil. budget, he ought to be able to get two more pitchers and at least one OBP upgrade by the start of the season. I'm sick of the mid-season upgrade nonsense.What you say is the truth, and what's scary about it is our top minor league prospects stink. Outside of Buehrle, A-Row, CLee, Olivo and Crede, who have the Sox brought up from their own farm system in the last 4 or 5 years? The Twins seem to bring up 4 or 5 outstanding players from their minors every couple of years. Why is this? Those who like to continually blame KW for trading away our "top prospects" who end up going nowhere for legitimate starters would be better spending their time criticizing our scouting/development, or lack thereof.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 06:48 PM
The Twins seem to bring up 4 or 5 outstanding players from their minors each year. Really? And who would those 4-5 outstanding players be?

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 06:51 PM
There's a nation?

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

I can't find them here. :cool:It's a small nation, that's for sure. But a nation nonetheless ;)

cool link, BTW...

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 06:56 PM
Really? And who would those 4-5 outstanding players be?1) Joe Mauer
2) Justin Morneau
3) Lew Ford
4) Jason Kubel
5) Jesse Crain
6) Terry Tiffee

And that's just this last year. Admittedly they're not all 'outstanding.' But still good, especially when used correctly by Gardenhire.

dcb33
12-07-2004, 07:04 PM
Really? And who would those 4-5 outstanding players be?
Well, this past year they brought up Lew Ford, Justin Morneau, Michael Cuddyer, and Joe Mauer and they all played well. Before that there's been Johann Santana, Kyle Loshe, J.C. Romero, Juan Rincon, Matthew LeCroy, Luis Rivas, Torii Hunter, and Jacque Jones. All of these guys were developed with the Twins and have assumed major roles in the team's success since 2001.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 07:05 PM
1) Joe Mauer
2) Justin Morneau
3) Lew Ford
4) Jason Kubel
5) Jesse Crain
6) Terry Tiffee

And that's just this last year. Admittedly they're not all 'outstanding.' But still good, especially when used correctly by Gardenhire.Mauer looks like he MIGHT be a good one, but so far he hasn't proven anything. Ford is a keeper. Morneau's numbers look a lot like Ross Gload's as a matter of fact, more power, lower BA, about the same AB. The other three are still prospects. And that's TWO year's worth.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 07:14 PM
Well, this past year they brought up Lew Ford, Justin Morneau, Michael Cuddyer, and Joe Mauer and they all played well. Before that there's been Johann Santana, Kyle Loshe, J.C. Romero, Juan Rincon, Matthew LeCroy, Luis Rivas, Torii Hunter, and Jacque Jones. All of these guys were developed with the Twins and have assumed major roles in the team's success since 2001.Luis Rivas?? Matthew LeCroy?? Michael Cuddyer?? These are "outstanding players"? Please. If they played for the Sox, everyone would want to get rid of them. I'll give you 1-2 per year, which is a far cry from "4-5 outstanding players per year".

The White Sox have had the disadvantage of a much poorer draft position, but over the same period, the Sox have brought up:

Mark Buehrle
Aaron Rowand
Joe Crede
Jon Garland
Miguel Olivo


Of course, they all play for the Sox, so they all suck.

And of course, immediately before that we had Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez. Not too shabby, those two.

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 07:20 PM
Alomar 2003: Salvo was released, Almonte was released by two organizations, and Royce Ring was demoted to AA and is now unprotected for the rule 5 draft. Roberto replaced Jimenez's crappy defense, and taught Harris some things about second.

Alomar 2004: Desperation move made by KW. The team was on a 7 game losing streak, Uribe hit .123 for July, and Harris was hitting .188 in July. It sucked but we didn't give up much.

Everett 2003: Was a much needed offensive upgrade in CF. Rowand was still recovering from his dirt bike accident, Harris and Borchard were called up to play CF. Frankie Francisco was good for the Rangers for the first half of the season (came up in May too,) but struggled in the second half and tossed a chair at a fan. Rupe is putting up decent numbers in the Rangers' AA system, and Webster is now left unprotected for the rule 5 draft.

Everett 2004: Frank went down, and we needed a bat to fill the void left by him. The trade was made in the middle of July when many teams were still competitive, so there weren't many options to get a replacement bat. Everett was pretty good when he first got here, but Ozzie get misusing him, and Everett got hurt. Why was Everett trying to steal second? http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/html/emoticons/huh.gif We gave up Jon Rauch, who has battled injuries, and was given 3 chances to impress the Sox, and he only did well when the Sox were out of it in September of 2002. Not surprisingly, he pitched pretty well with a pressure-less team, the Expos. Oh, he also when on the DL (again) when he was with the Expos. We also gave up Gary "the cat" Majewski. What does it say when a team loses a guy in the rule 5 draft, gets the guy back, trades the guy to LA for Osuna, and then receives him back for Baldwin? I think a lot of people are forgetting that we receive cash from the Expos, so we only paid Carl Everett the league minimum for 2004. We also paid the league minimum for Robbie and Everett back in 2003.

Koch trade: Horrible trade. Foulke was a whiney bitch who failed in the closer's role in 2002. He wanted it back, but Manuel decided to use Osuna and Marte. Foulke padded his numbers once he was removed from the closer's role. Hindsight 20/20, it was a horrible trade. JR didn't want to pay FOULKE $6 million in 2003, so they decided to pay Koch less in 2003, but guarantee him a second year worth a little more than what they would have paid Foulke. The worst possible scenario happened as Koch blew both years he was here, and Foulke was excellent in 2003.

Colon: He raped the Expos for Colon, and JR and KW offered him the largest contract for a pitcher in White Sox history (rumored to be around $36-39 million,) but he turned it down for a much larger deal in Anaheim. He had 18 wins with the Angels in 2004, but his ERA was over 5. I don't want to hear about this **** how "KW should've signed Colon as soon as he traded for him" because according to some sources, Colon didn't want to pitch here, and he was coming off a season in which he won 10 games in BOTH the NL and AL. KW used that money for Freddy Garcia ($9-12 million less, which is now looking like a STEAL with this market) and he also received two draft picks for losing Colon.

Look at the 2003 Sox of the second half. Before that horrible series against the Twins, the Sox had the second best record in the league. Guess who had a better record by one game? It was the Twins, who would go on to win 11 straight in a September where they played many games against the Tigers.

You can't possibly blame KW for 2003. He wanted to FIRE Manuel, but JR didn't want to because the Sox were the hosts of the All-Star game. Look at what Houston did this season. They fired their manager a day after the All-Star game, caught fire, and went to the playoffs.
Yeah, but we had the #1 ranked system and we traded all these guys, so KW MUST have raped the farm!!!

Outstanding summary s=d.

For the record, check back on who exactly made up that #1 ranked farm system in 99-2000. You'll see names like Borchard, Crede, Rowand, Stumm, Ginter, Malone, Garland, Kip Wells, Jon Rauch.

Any of those names seem familiar? They should because 5/9 are still in the organization. 2 are either out of baseball or on their 3d or 4th team post-Sox (Stumm, Ginter). Kip Wells & Jon Rauch make up the much ballyhooed "raping of the farm system". That's right - a decent #3 in the NL and a guy who put up a couple of decent starts, again in the NL.

But go ahead and believe whatever you like. You will anyway.

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 07:21 PM
Mauer looks like he MIGHT be a good one, but so far he hasn't proven anything. Ford is a keeper. Morneau's numbers look a lot like Ross Gload's as a matter of fact, more power, lower BA, about the same AB. The other three are still prospects. And that's TWO year's worth.Two years worth? What are you talking about? Sure, most had been September call-ups in years prior, with extra at-bats here and there to fill in for injured players. But this last year was the first year ANY of them was brought up with expectations that they contribute significantly. And all of them did, whether by starting (Ford, Morneau, and Mauer before he was injured) or by filling in for injured starters (the other two, with Crain doing a good job out of the bullpen in September).

And, by the way, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, and Crain have all been highly touted prospects...Not JUST by the Twins, but by many throughout MLB. And based from what I've seen from all of them on the field, there's nothing to tell me they should be thought of otherwise. Things can change, of course. But the point is still evident: The Twins have had their fair share of injuries the last few years, and time and again they've been able to call someone up from the minors to acceptably fill-in. It's a depth the White Sox haven't been able to match. In the end, while the White Sox may arguably have a more 'talented' lineup, they are at more risk of tanking if someone goes down to injury, which inevitably happens over a 162 game schedule.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 07:23 PM
And, by the way, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, and Crain have all been highly touted prospects...Not JUST by the Twins, but by many throughout MLB.Same for Joe Borchard.:o:

Nate_in_Kansas
12-07-2004, 07:25 PM
Same for Joe Borchard.:o:Wow. Ya got me there. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 07:54 PM
Flight says: "Man, those guys all sucked. How they kept their jobs is beyond me."

Just curious...not taking sides on the Williams issue but all things being equal Flight, if you owned the Sox how long would you keep Williams before cutting the cord? He has been G.M. for four years and before that ran the farm system.

Lip

santo=dorf
12-07-2004, 08:05 PM
Flight says: "Man, those guys all sucked. How they kept their jobs is beyond me."

Just curious...not taking sides on the Williams issue but all things being equal Flight, if you owned the Sox how long would you keep Williams before cutting the cord? He has been G.M. for four years and before that ran the farm system.

LipTwo more years.

Terry Ryan has been GM of the Twins since 1994. Until 2001, his teams never had a winning season, and finished in last place 3 times, and had 4 fourth place finishes. Yet the Twins kept him, and look at where they are now.

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 08:17 PM
Flight says: "Man, those guys all sucked. How they kept their jobs is beyond me."

Just curious...not taking sides on the Williams issue but all things being equal Flight, if you owned the Sox how long would you keep Williams before cutting the cord? He has been G.M. for four years and before that ran the farm system.

Lip
In general, I'd think you should see results starting in 4-5 years. It's year 4 and I believe the team he put together this year was very strong, and I can't blame him for injuries to his top 2 players. The farm system should start to show fruit in the next 1-2 years (in fact, it can be argued that it has started to already with the development of Reed, which enabled the acquisition of Garcia).

chisoxt
12-07-2004, 09:04 PM
Exactly. Without Santana this year, the Twins wouldn't have been jack. Combine that with the Maggs-Thomas injuries and I'd say Ryan got pretty damn lucky this year (especially given the fact that his track record indicates his is a poor GM who's had a few good years).
It absolutley amazes me how, in a couple of months time, dillusional so many Sox fans become. They refuse to accept the fact of how much more the Twins organization has accomplished the last few years, even with limited resources. Yea the Sox had some key injuries, but guess what, the Twins had injuries too early on and in the end it didn't seem to matter much because of the support of a kick-ass farm system...a concept that seems to escape our GM.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 09:05 PM
For what it's worth. From the WSI interview with Phil Rogers in August 2002:

ML: You wrote when Ken Williams was hired that he might have the toughest job in baseball. Taking over a team with high expectations thats not willing to have a large payroll. Assess the job hes done in the past two seasons.

PR: "His major transactions, David Wells, Todd Ritchie have failed. The pipeline of young pitching talent has hit a dam. The saving grace has been some very good young position players. Hes in a very difficult situation. If you were going to give him a grade, Id say it would be a C- or a D+."

ML: I know many Sox fans feel frankly, that Williams isnt qualified for his job. Lets say things remain the same next season 2003, around 82 or 83 wins and on the edge of "contending." Would ownership consider making a change, would they be willing to admit they were wrong?

PR: "Theyd have to make a change. Next year is a critical year for the team, ownership should demand improvement after three years. Its interesting that Williams and Oakland GM Billy Beane have exactlythe same qualifications. Both guys were marginal major leaguers, both guys learned under strong GMs, Sandy Alderson in Oakland and Ron Schueler with the Sox, both guys started in the minor league / player development areas and both guys work for franchises that have limited payrolls."

Lip

fquaye149
12-07-2004, 10:02 PM
both guys learned under strong GMs, Sandy Alderson in Oakland and Ron Schueler with the Sox,

Lip i know this site loves progers but.....at the very least i'd have to ignore the remained or any interview in which this is said.

GiveMeSox
12-07-2004, 10:23 PM
Did anyone hear Joe from West Lafayette (Purdue) that was me. I gave a shout to to bruce with a happy hanakah and mention wsi. I asked him if these trades he and other mentioned including dealing konerko or garland make sense becasue they actually create holes in the process. Either we are back to 4 starters or losing a big time run producer after thus losing maggs and now maybe frank for awhile. I question that these trades dont make sense and only signing FA's can actually help us fill holes. Bruce and Dave basically agreed with me.