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View Full Version : Goodbye, Magglio.


Justafan
12-06-2004, 05:27 PM
I'm still can't believe he will be gone.


http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/7970402

Foulke29
12-06-2004, 05:53 PM
Don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out Maggs.

Justafan
12-06-2004, 05:55 PM
Don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out Maggs.I'm sure Magglio will tell his side of the story soon enough. I don't believe for a second that the Sox are angels in all of this.

California Sox
12-06-2004, 05:57 PM
Well, that's two draft picks we could have used. :angry: Boras is such a jerk. :angry:

Foulke29
12-06-2004, 05:57 PM
I'm sure Magglio will tell his side of the story soon enough. I don't believe for a second that the Sox are angels in all of this.
Angels or not, it's pretty crappy to put the Sox in a position that doesn't allow them to assess whether they want to offer him arbitration.

Foulke29
12-06-2004, 05:58 PM
Well, that's two draft picks we could have used. :angry: Boras is such a jerk. :angry:Is jerk the word we're really thinking for that f-ing piece of s that s-s a c?

HomeFish
12-06-2004, 05:59 PM
When June comes and Cubbie trolls emerge with "OH-E-OH" in their sigs, I'll make sure to note the various types of irony present.

munchman33
12-06-2004, 06:00 PM
I'm sure Magglio will tell his side of the story soon enough. I don't believe for a second that the Sox are angels in all of this.
Nothing's stopped him so far.

Say what you want about the White Sox organization. I'm sure Maggs was upset over the whole Nomar trade thing before last season. That doesn't mean Magglio hasn't done everything humanly possible to screw the Sox or deceive the fans. Because he has. Anyone who can't see that is just plain stupid.

Justafan
12-06-2004, 06:02 PM
Angels or not, it's pretty crappy to put the Sox in a position that doesn't allow them to assess whether they want to offer him arbitration.
It's also pretty crappy to continue to give your core players diminished skills clauses in their contracts.

Foulke29
12-06-2004, 06:07 PM
It's also pretty crappy to continue to give your core players diminished skills clauses in their contracts.
I thought it was pretty smart actually. If more owners did things like that, they wouldn't run into having PoS like Sammy taking up a roster spot.

Frank's a classy guy, but salaries are getting out of hand, and I think collusion would be a wonderful thing for baseball bud. I don't think it was crappy to offer a diminished skills contract - in fact and I am not a JR supporter in the least), I think it was pretty nice of JR to offer him $5 Million a year when all he was obligated to offer Frank after the clause kicked in was below league minium!

But, regardless, if we didn't have juicers in the league, the clause never would have kicked in as Hurt would have won his third MVP in 2000.

Justafan
12-06-2004, 06:09 PM
Nothing's stopped him so far.

Say what you want about the White Sox organization. I'm sure Maggs was upset over the whole Nomar trade thing before last season. That doesn't mean Magglio hasn't done everything humanly possible to screw the Sox or deceive the fans. Because he has. Anyone who can't see that is just plain stupid.


I say good for Magglio in giving the middle finger to the Sox. Lets see here, they tried to deal him before the injury for Nomar because they KNEW they had no REAL intention of signing him. Way to treat your best player. After the whole trade with Nomar blew up, they tried to save some face and offered him a deferred contract(fairly certain this is what I heard).


Now that Magglio tells the Sox to go scratch, he is the bad guy? Sorry, I don't and won't buy this ownerships crap.

Foulke29
12-06-2004, 06:10 PM
I say good for Magglio in giving the middle finger to the Sox. Lets see here, they tried to deal him before the injury for Nomar because they KNEW they had no REAL intention of signing him. Way to treat your best player. After the whole trade with Nomar blew up, they tried to save some face and offered him a deferred contract(fairly certain this is what I heard).


Now that Magglio tells the Sox to go scratch, he is the bad guy? Sorry, I don't and won't buy this ownerships crap.
la la la la

:dtroll:

la la la la

:dtroll:

dickallen15
12-06-2004, 06:13 PM
Nothing's stopped him so far.

Say what you want about the White Sox organization. I'm sure Maggs was upset over the whole Nomar trade thing before last season. That doesn't mean Magglio hasn't done everything humanly possible to screw the Sox or deceive the fans. Because he has. Anyone who can't see that is just plain stupid.
The White Sox could have offerred him what a guy with his production makes, and made the deal contigent on his passing the physical. They want to look at him first, which is fine. The gamesmanship Boras is playing is fine too. Its the world of negotiation.

Flight #24
12-06-2004, 06:17 PM
I say good for Magglio in giving the middle finger to the Sox. Lets see here, they tried to deal him before the injury for Nomar because they KNEW they had no REAL intention of signing him. Way to treat your best player. After the whole trade with Nomar blew up, they tried to save some face and offered him a deferred contract(fairly certain this is what I heard).

Go back and read the CBA. Max deferral = 20%. Maximum deferral time = 2yrs past end of contract. Therefore at MOST, the Sox offer could have been 6% less than Maggs request of 5/70. Yup, complete disrespect. In fact, they should have respected him and treated him fairly by saying "5/70? C'mon Maggs - you deserve 8/120! Here ya go!".

Plus did it ever occur to you that they realized that Maggs was going to go to market to try and break the bank with an albatross-like deal, so they figured it would be better to trade him for an equivalent star at a harder to fill position?

Nah. That wouldn't make any sense at all or fit with any facts.

Justafan
12-06-2004, 06:26 PM
Plus did it ever occur to you that they realized that Maggs was going to go to market to try and break the bank with an albatross-like deal

Maybe because as one of the best RF in baseball he deserved it. Did that ever occur to you? He knew the Sox would probably not give him what he felt he was worth.

Flight #24
12-06-2004, 06:29 PM
Maybe because as one of the best RF in baseball he deserved it. Did that ever occur to you?
He deserved what? The highest contract of any player in baseball? The highest contract for any RF? A blank check?

He asked for the same contract given to a better player 1 year prior (Vlady). He asked for a better contract than that given to an equivalent player at a much harder to fill position (Tejada). But the Sox were supposed to simply say "ok"?

They came extremely close. Maggs did not budge. That's not called negotiating, that's called "I really want out unless you make me a ridiculously high offer".

dcb33
12-06-2004, 06:29 PM
Go back and read the CBA. Max deferral = 20%. Maximum deferral time = 2yrs past end of contract. Therefore at MOST, the Sox offer could have been 6% less than Maggs request of 5/70. Yup, complete disrespect. In fact, they should have respected him and treated him fairly by saying "5/70? C'mon Maggs - you deserve 8/120! Here ya go!".

Plus did it ever occur to you that they realized that Maggs was going to go to market to try and break the bank with an albatross-like deal, so they figured it would be better to trade him for an equivalent star at a harder to fill position?

Nah. That wouldn't make any sense at all or fit with any facts.Let's not forget the fact that they offered him that contract while he was injured. Instead of shutting his mouth and discreetly negotiating a deal, he decided to do interview after interview about how the Sox were screwing him over while he was unable to contribute right in the middle of a pennant race. Frankly, there were more important things going on at the time than his precious contract, and I'm sure all of the speculation and attention did nothign to help the team. Granted, no one knew how serious the injury was at the time, but I am sure glad that Magglio's greed/stupidity got the best of him.
The Sox would be ruined if they owed this guy 70mil over the next five years and he couldn't produce at his pre-injury level From what I've read/heard about his condition, I highly doubt he will ever be able to perform at that level again. Maggs needs to get over himself.

Justafan
12-06-2004, 06:34 PM
He deserved what? The highest contract of any player in baseball? The highest contract for any RF? A blank check?

He asked for the same contract given to a better player 1 year prior (Vlady). He asked for a better contract than that given to an equivalent player at a much harder to fill position (Tejada). But the Sox were supposed to simply say "ok"?

They came extremely close. Maggs did not budge. That's not called negotiating, that's called "I really want out unless you make me a ridiculously high offer".

I guess I am just going to wait for Magglio to comment and go from there. I know what your stance is and you know mine. Players like him are hard to come by, especially when you have NOTHING to replace him with.

CubKilla
12-06-2004, 06:35 PM
All of those posters badmouthing Maggs will be missing his bat and production in the line-up come right around June/July when Borchard is hitting a less than Adam Dunn like < .225 or when a Dye-type is on the DL.

oldcomiskey
12-06-2004, 06:42 PM
All of those posters badmouthing Maggs will be missing his bat and production in the line-up come right around June/July when Borchard is hitting a less than Adam Dunn like < .225 or when a Dye-type is on the DL.
and what if Magglio is hitting about that or turns into Moises Alou?

oldcomiskey
12-06-2004, 06:44 PM
and according to the article--RJ aint coming here either

CubKilla
12-06-2004, 06:48 PM
and what if Magglio is hitting about that or turns into Moises Alou?
Then all the FOJR can claim vindication.

dickallen15
12-06-2004, 06:54 PM
Let's not forget the fact that they offered him that contract while he was injured. Instead of shutting his mouth and discreetly negotiating a deal, he decided to do interview after interview about how the Sox were screwing him over while he was unable to contribute right in the middle of a pennant race. Frankly, there were more important things going on at the time than his precious contract, and I'm sure all of the speculation and attention did nothign to help the team. Granted, no one knew how serious the injury was at the time, but I am sure glad that Magglio's greed/stupidity got the best of him.
The Sox would be ruined if they owed this guy 70mil over the next five years and he couldn't produce at his pre-injury level From what I've read/heard about his condition, I highly doubt he will ever be able to perform at that level again. Maggs needs to get over himself.
Interview after interview? Magglio does not seek out the press. The press asked him about it and he responded. He never said the Sox were screwing him over. I'm sure he was hurt about the proposed Boston trade. The White Sox gave him a backloaded contract, and when it became time to pay him the going rate or better, they looked to get rid of him. If Magglio were healthy this past season, and played out his contract, and didn't re-sign, fans would have been up in arms. I really doubt reporters asking the best player on the team about his impending free agency, really will affect the team. Magglio turned down the Sox offer, got hurt, and its going to cost him. Thats the breaks. BTW, players seem to be getting a lot more money this offseason than last. If Magglio remained healthy and played well, he would have gotten the money he ultimately was looking for.

RKMeibalane
12-06-2004, 07:01 PM
All of those posters badmouthing Maggs will be missing his bat and production in the line-up come right around June/July when Borchard is hitting a less than Adam Dunn like < .225 or when a Dye-type is on the DL.
I agree that the Sox are going to miss Maggs' bat. That's why I'm dissapointed he's leaving. However, the reason most people are upset with him is because of the way he has handled the contract situation. Given that a baseball player's time is spent on the field of play, maybe that's not entirely fair. However, many Sox fans, and baseball fans in general, believe that a player must show some sort of loyalty to his team, and Maggs doesn't appear to have done that.

I wish Maggs the best next season, wherever he ends up. He had a good run with the Sox, and it's going to be awhile before the Sox can find a suitable replacement for him. May 25, 2004 will go down as an important date in Sox history. That day marks the last time that Frank Thomas and Magglio Ordonez were in the lineup together. It looks like we're not going to see that again.

dcb33
12-06-2004, 07:20 PM
Interview after interview? Magglio does not seek out the press. The press asked him about it and he responded. He never said the Sox were screwing him over. I'm sure he was hurt about the proposed Boston trade. The White Sox gave him a backloaded contract, and when it became time to pay him the going rate or better, they looked to get rid of him. If Magglio were healthy this past season, and played out his contract, and didn't re-sign, fans would have been up in arms. I really doubt reporters asking the best player on the team about his impending free agency, really will affect the team. Magglio turned down the Sox offer, got hurt, and its going to cost him. Thats the breaks. BTW, players seem to be getting a lot more money this offseason than last. If Magglio remained healthy and played well, he would have gotten the money he ultimately was looking for.Actually, it was just the one interview that I won't forget- the one where he said "I'm done talking. It was about the amount of money." GMAB. We offered him the bank and he turned it down figuring he could do better. What's the difference between a regular 70MM and 70MM deferred? None of us will ever see that type of money, yet we're expected to go support him and make his lifestyle possible? You'd think the least he could do, being brought up by the White Sox, would be to let K.W. know what condition his knee is in and agree to a physical so KW would be in a position to evaluate whether or not offering him arbitration would be worthwhile move. I guess all the years of fan support in Chicago doesn't go very far in Magglio Ordonez's world. Excuse me if I don't sympathize with the cause here.
Baseball is business, and I really doubt he was hurt all that much by the possibility of a trade to Boston. He knew the situation he was in, and if he couldn't handle it, then he needs to get over himself.

munchman33
12-06-2004, 08:16 PM
It's obvious that people have their own opinions about this. It's unfortunate that the majority of Magglio supporters are wearing their Magglio-goggles and not trying to really understand what's going on.

Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me. You remind me a lot of mindless Cubs fans who sware by their messiah, Mark Prior, who could do no wrong no matter what a dick he really is.

Soxzilla
12-06-2004, 08:25 PM
All I have to say is that the people supporting Magglio in this thread need to pull the wool from over their eyes. I'm no FOJR, I think the man is an infection on this organization, but I'm SO glad that he didn't give Magglio anything more than 10 million a year plus deferred money ... because that would have been a joke of a contract, he certainly isn't worth that much.

I sure am going to miss all those double plays he grounded into.:cool:

And when was Magglio EVER the best player on this team?


????

He NEVER was.

munchman33
12-06-2004, 08:40 PM
All I have to say is that the people supporting Magglio in this thread need to pull the wool from over their eyes. I'm no FOJR, I think the man is an infection on this organization, but I'm SO glad that he didn't give Magglio anything more than 10 million a year plus deferred money ... because that would have been a joke of a contract, he certainly isn't worth that much.

I sure am going to miss all those double plays he grounded into.:cool:

And when was Magglio EVER the best player on this team?


????

He NEVER was.
Soxzilla, you're my hero. :D:

Soxzilla
12-06-2004, 08:45 PM
Soxzilla, you're my hero. :D:
Naw, the big hurt is your true hero.

He's an AMERICAN hero.

:hurt

:worship: :worship: :worship:

CubsfansareDRUNK
12-06-2004, 08:47 PM
Here's what i say.

Say maggs goes to the scrubs. about 2 years later mabye less, the cubs fans will "take in mags" as their own, the same thing they did for harry carrey. I think less than 1% of the cubs fans know that harry was always a white sox guy. he BELONGED here. Cubs fans will be like "Oh-e-oh Maggglio"
Magglio Ordonez, what a cub. Well good riddance mags. It was fun while it lasted :(:

Gosox1917
12-06-2004, 09:08 PM
Is it evil to hope that Magglio's injury is career ending and I hope he ends up living in Austria the rest of his life? I...ya know...it seems like an evil thought, but also rather justified for what he has done to the Sox and his fans. Let me know what you guys think.

Jjav829
12-06-2004, 09:10 PM
It's obvious that people have their own opinions about this. It's unfortunate that the majority of Magglio supporters are wearing their Magglio-goggles and not trying to really understand what's going on.

Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me. You remind me a lot of mindless Cubs fans who sware by their messiah, Mark Prior, who could do no wrong no matter what a dick he really is.
The same can be said about you as you continue to try to bash Magglio at any opportunity while you abide by this false belief that players loyalty to a team is more important than their life-changing decisions.

If you're so sick, leave.

southsider17
12-06-2004, 09:12 PM
All I have to say is that the people supporting Magglio in this thread need to pull the wool from over their eyes. I'm no FOJR, I think the man is an infection on this organization, but I'm SO glad that he didn't give Magglio anything more than 10 million a year plus deferred money ... because that would have been a joke of a contract, he certainly isn't worth that much.

I sure am going to miss all those double plays he grounded into.:cool:

And when was Magglio EVER the best player on this team?


????

He NEVER was.Then who was?! And don't say Thomas. If a DH is a team's best player ..... that's just a sad indictment.

blesto-v
12-06-2004, 09:31 PM
Then who was?! And don't say Thomas. If a DH is a team's best player ..... that's just a sad indictment.
Well, he couldn't be the Sox best player in 2004, because he was hurt......:whiner:

And, in 2003, a guy named Loaiza had a pretty good year if I recall (21-9, 2.91 ERA......

Pitchers don't count.....?

OK, whatabout that guy named Thomas?......................he out-homered Mags 42-29 and out-ribbied him 105-99.................with 60 fewer AB's than Ordonez......................so Frank's the DH, so what?.....................it's not like Mags plays shortstop or some key infield position.........

NIce player, but the Sox have beeter way to spend what he would cost..........and will have more production to show for it.....

:D:

JoseCanseco6969
12-06-2004, 09:34 PM
Maybe because as one of the best RF in baseball he deserved it. Did that ever occur to you? He knew the Sox would probably not give him what he felt he was worth.
get over it, hes not coming back and I for one am glad as hell to say a huge HE GONE to good ol Maggs!
and he sure as hell isnt one of the best RF's in baseball now. He'll be luck to have 3 or 4 solid seasons left in him

southsider17
12-06-2004, 09:40 PM
Well, he couldn't be the Sox best player in 2004, because he was hurt......:whiner:

And, in 2003, a guy named Loaiza had a pretty good year if I recall (21-9, 2.91 ERA......

Pitchers don't count.....?

OK, whatabout that guy named Thomas?......................he out-homered Mags 42-29 and out-ribbied him 105-99.................with 60 fewer AB's than Ordonez......................so Frank's the DH, so what?.....................it's not like Mags plays shortstop or some key infield position.........

NIce player, but the Sox have beeter way to spend what he would cost..........and will have more production to show for it.....

:D:
Offense is everything to you isn't it?

Magg's offensive deficiency compared to Thomas is made up by his defense (Maggs is/was above average) and speed on the basepaths. At least IMHO.

:whatever:

munchman33
12-06-2004, 09:44 PM
The same can be said about you as you continue to try to bash Magglio at any opportunity while you abide by this false belief that players loyalty to a team is more important than their life-changing decisions.

If you're so sick, leave.
Ouch...must have struck a chord with you.

My biggest beef with Magglio is that he lied to us. Not the White Sox. The fans. He said he wanted to be back. He didn't have to say that. But he did. If it were true, he could have at the very least showed a concerted effort to make it happen. But that never happened. And his actions since getting injured have simply been a blatant attempt to prevent returning to the White Sox, who are in a position, now that Magglio is coming off injury, to offer him more than most others on the market.

But if anyone on this board honestly believes that Magglio did want to come back, know that I am sitting here laughing at you all. The same way I laugh at and pity Flubs fans. Because you're becoming just like them.

Justafan
12-06-2004, 09:48 PM
What is amazing to me is that some of you are acting as if losing Ordonez is NOTHING. You guys act as if he is just some average player that will easily be replaced.

When Ordonez says what really went down we can all draw our own conclusions.

Soxzilla
12-06-2004, 09:55 PM
Offense is everything to you isn't it?

Magg's offensive deficiency compared to Thomas is made up by his defense (Maggs is/was above average) and speed on the basepaths. At least IMHO.

:whatever:

:whoflungpoo

You can't even compare Frank to Magglio ... so don't ... please ...


.... ever.

Jjav829
12-06-2004, 10:01 PM
Ouch...must have struck a chord with you.

My biggest beef with Magglio is that he lied to us. Not the White Sox. The fans. He said he wanted to be back. He didn't have to say that. But he did. If it were true, he could have at the very least showed a concerted effort to make it happen. But that never happened. And his actions since getting injured have simply been a blatant attempt to prevent returning to the White Sox, who are in a position, now that Magglio is coming off injury, to offer him more than most others on the market.

But if anyone on this board honestly believes that Magglio did want to come back, know that I am sitting here laughing at you all. The same way I laugh at and pity Flubs fans. Because you're becoming just like them.Then laugh at me. I suppose its easier to hide behind your misguided beliefs than to actually look at the situation clearly. Magglio is a good ballplayer. I liked watching him play and I wish he was staying around. But he's also a real human being. He has other things to worry about than what Sox fans feel about him. I wanna know what you would do in his situation. You've set yourself up for a nice payday in your free agent year. You start off the season well. You like where you are, but like any other free agent you wonder how much money you can make. Suddenly your plan goes awry as you suffer a career threatening knee injury. Your chances of landing that big contract are now all but gone. You're looking at a small contract, likely for only a year. You might never be the same player again. What do you do?

Here's what I do. I find myself the best agent available. I don't care how big of a scumbag he might be. I want the guy who is going to get me the highest guaranteed contract, just in case I can never play again. I want security. I may have loved where I played before, but now I have bigger issues, bigger needs. I need to make sure I get enough money to secure my future and my families future.

You seem to have trouble separating Magglio's previous comments from the fact that he suffered a disastrous, possible career threatening injury. Things change. Suddenly playing for a team you like in a city you life becomes an afterthought to financial security. I don't believe he lied at all. He said he likes playing here and would like to continue playing here.

Feel free to reply without some jackass comment about how we're becoming like Cubs fans.

batmanZoSo
12-06-2004, 10:03 PM
Then laugh at me. I suppose its easier to hide behind your misguided beliefs than to actually look at the situation clearly. Magglio is a good ballplayer. I liked watching him play and I wish he was staying around. But he's also a real human being. He has other things to worry about than what Sox fans feel about him. I wanna know what you would do in his situation. You've set yourself up for a nice payday in your free agent year. You start off the season well. You like where you are, but like any other free agent you wonder how much money you can make. Suddenly your plan goes awry as you suffer a career threatening knee injury. Your chances of landing that big contract are now all but gone. You're looking at a small contract, likely for only a year. You might never be the same player again. What do you do?

Here's what I do. I find myself the best agent available. I don't care how big of a scumbag he might be. I want the guy who is going to get me the highest guaranteed contract, just in case I can never play again. I want security. I may have loved where I played before, but now I have bigger issues, bigger needs. I need to make sure I get enough money to secure my future and my families future.

You seem to have trouble separating Magglio's previous comments from the fact that he suffered a disastrous, possible career threatening injury. Things change. Suddenly playing for a team you like in a city you life becomes an afterthought to financial security. I don't believe he lied at all. He said he likes playing here and would like to continue playing here.

Feel free to reply without some jackass comment about how we're becoming like Cubs fans.
Financial security? Didn't he already make about 30 million playing ball already? Please.

dickallen15
12-06-2004, 10:04 PM
All I have to say is that the people supporting Magglio in this thread need to pull the wool from over their eyes. I'm no FOJR, I think the man is an infection on this organization, but I'm SO glad that he didn't give Magglio anything more than 10 million a year plus deferred money ... because that would have been a joke of a contract, he certainly isn't worth that much.

I sure am going to miss all those double plays he grounded into.:cool:

And when was Magglio EVER the best player on this team?


????

He NEVER was.
I'm glad you're not a White Sox scout. They would be terrible.

Jjav829
12-06-2004, 10:05 PM
Financial security? Didn't he already make about 30 million playing ball already? Please.
Who knows what he did with that money. Athletes aren't exactly thrifty with how they spend. The difference between a guaranteed $6 million and a guaranteed $60 million is huge to anyone.

dickallen15
12-06-2004, 10:06 PM
Actually, it was just the one interview that I won't forget- the one where he said "I'm done talking. It was about the amount of money." GMAB. We offered him the bank and he turned it down figuring he could do better. What's the difference between a regular 70MM and 70MM deferred? None of us will ever see that type of money, yet we're expected to go support him and make his lifestyle possible? You'd think the least he could do, being brought up by the White Sox, would be to let K.W. know what condition his knee is in and agree to a physical so KW would be in a position to evaluate whether or not offering him arbitration would be worthwhile move. I guess all the years of fan support in Chicago doesn't go very far in Magglio Ordonez's world. Excuse me if I don't sympathize with the cause here.
Baseball is business, and I really doubt he was hurt all that much by the possibility of a trade to Boston. He knew the situation he was in, and if he couldn't handle it, then he needs to get over himself.Then Frank Thomas complaining about a contract he agreed to must really make you sick.

dcb33
12-06-2004, 10:11 PM
Then Frank Thomas complaining about a contract he agreed to must really make you sick.
Do you go into work everyday complaining to everyone about how you don't make enough money? I thought not...

Ol' No. 2
12-06-2004, 10:12 PM
Then laugh at me. I suppose its easier to hide behind your misguided beliefs than to actually look at the situation clearly. Magglio is a good ballplayer. I liked watching him play and I wish he was staying around. But he's also a real human being. He has other things to worry about than what Sox fans feel about him. I wanna know what you would do in his situation. You've set yourself up for a nice payday in your free agent year. You start off the season well. You like where you are, but like any other free agent you wonder how much money you can make. Suddenly your plan goes awry as you suffer a career threatening knee injury. Your chances of landing that big contract are now all but gone. You're looking at a small contract, likely for only a year. You might never be the same player again. What do you do?

Here's what I do. I find myself the best agent available. I don't care how big of a scumbag he might be. I want the guy who is going to get me the highest guaranteed contract, just in case I can never play again. I want security. I may have loved where I played before, but now I have bigger issues, bigger needs. I need to make sure I get enough money to secure my future and my families future.

You seem to have trouble separating Magglio's previous comments from the fact that he suffered a disastrous, possible career threatening injury. Things change. Suddenly playing for a team you like in a city you life becomes an afterthought to financial security. I don't believe he lied at all. He said he likes playing here and would like to continue playing here.

Feel free to reply without some jackass comment about how we're becoming like Cubs fans.I'm with you on this one. People need to get over this "HE LIED TO US" stuff. If you heard "I want to stay with the Sox" and didn't also hear the unspoken "assuming they will pay me what I'm worth", you're naive. Personally, I think he may well have accepted the Sox offer, but someone convinced him he could get a lot more than the Sox offer and changed his mind. And we don't know how much was deferred, so we really don't know the specifics of the offer.

Mohoney
12-06-2004, 10:13 PM
The same can be said about you as you continue to try to bash Magglio at any opportunity while you abide by this false belief that players loyalty to a team is more important than their life-changing decisions.

If you're so sick, leave.
Amen.

Instead of unabashedly bashing Magglio or Reinsdorf, I think we really need to just admit it:

We would be doing the exact same thing, trying to make the best financial decision possible.

For Reinsdorf, the risk of having $10+ million on the DL is just too great to offer Magglio a multiyear deal.

For Magglio, this will probably be his last big payday, and I can't really blame him for trying to get as much as possible.

Baseball is a business, just like any other business.

Jjav829
12-06-2004, 10:14 PM
Actually, it was just the one interview that I won't forget- the one where he said "I'm done talking. It was about the amount of money." GMAB. We offered him the bank and he turned it down figuring he could do better. What's the difference between a regular 70MM and 70MM deferred? None of us will ever see that type of money, yet we're expected to go support him and make his lifestyle possible? You'd think the least he could do, being brought up by the White Sox, would be to let K.W. know what condition his knee is in and agree to a physical so KW would be in a position to evaluate whether or not offering him arbitration would be worthwhile move. I guess all the years of fan support in Chicago doesn't go very far in Magglio Ordonez's world. Excuse me if I don't sympathize with the cause here.
Baseball is business, and I really doubt he was hurt all that much by the possibility of a trade to Boston. He knew the situation he was in, and if he couldn't handle it, then he needs to get over himself.
Didn't you just contradict yourself? You claim "Baseball is business," yet that's the whole point here. You spend the first part of your post talking about how Magglio should have done the Sox a favor, but conclude saying baseball is business. Well yes, it is. And just like in business, baseball players are all earning the top dollar.

southsider17
12-06-2004, 10:16 PM
:whoflungpoo

You can't even compare Frank to Magglio ... so don't ... please ...


.... ever.
Just for clarification, are you siding with Frank or Maggs in the "Best Sox player" argument? :?:

ilsox7
12-06-2004, 10:20 PM
I'll keep it short: Magglio can kiss my ass. He went from someone I highly respected to someone I have 0 respect for. What goes around comes around and he'll get his one day.

MRKARNO
12-06-2004, 10:20 PM
If Magglio rejected the 70 million dollar offer as was reported, deferments irrelevent, then goodbye, no regrets. That was WAY more than he was worth on the market at the time and he said no to that. I'm sorry, I cannot sympathize with him after hearing this. His production will be missed, but we were able to score a boatload without him as well. Use the money on the pitching staff and especially the bullpen, I say.

Jjav829
12-06-2004, 10:20 PM
Amen.

Instead of unabashedly bashing Magglio or Reinsdorf, I think we really need to just admit it:

We would be doing the exact same thing, trying to make the best financial decision possible.

For Reinsdorf, the risk of having $10+ million on the DL is just too great to offer Magglio a multiyear deal.

For Magglio, this will probably be his last big payday, and I can't really blame him for trying to get as much as possible.

Baseball is a business, just like any other business.Exactly. People love to look for someone to place the blame on, but in this case, there isn't necessarily a person to take the blame. The Sox offered what sounded like a reason contract. Magglio didn't accept it, likely wanting to test the free agent market, but not ruling out the Sox. Unfortunately, he suffered an injury that changed his plans.

It's going to suck to see Magglio wearing another teams uniform next year. It always does when you develop a player of his caliber and watch him leave in the prime years of his career. But Magglio had to make the decision that was best for him, and unfortunately that left the Sox in a position where they couldn't do much other than let him go. So we move on. I just hope that as willing as they were to sign Magglio long-term, they'll be as willing to sign quality players to replace him.

dickallen15
12-06-2004, 10:24 PM
Do you go into work everyday complaining to everyone about how you don't make enough money? I thought not...
What does that mean? Magglio said the offer wasn't enough to agree to, there is nothing wrong with that. Frank agrees to a deal, and cries about it. Poor Frank is going to have to make due on $5 million a year. You make a big deal about interview after interview with Magglio, then say its just one. Then you talk about the huge offer the Sox made, even though you really don't know what it was. White Sox doctors have looked at his knee several times. If Boras is accurate and he only had another small meniscus tear in his knee, the White Sox doctors misdiagnosed him 3 times. I wouldn't want them looking at my knee, not with so much riding on it. Magglio was going to be a free agent, we knew that a year ago. Its his right. The market appears to be better than last year, so if he had remained healthy and had his usual production, it would have been the correct move for him. That didn't happen, and it cost him plenty. He has been a class act during his time with the White Sox. His time here is obviously done. The White Sox have a huge hole to fill in. The 5 seasons before his injury plagued 2004 he averaged 32 homers and 118 rbi, while batting over .300 and playing good defense, and scoring lots of runs. It boggles my mind people actually wish him ill will. Its sickening.

dcb33
12-06-2004, 10:25 PM
Didn't you just contradict yourself? You claim "Baseball is business," yet that's the whole point here. You spend the first part of your post talking about how Magglio should have done the Sox a favor, but conclude saying baseball is business. Well yes, it is. And just like in business, baseball players are all earning the top dollar.It might appear as if I did, but keep in mind Magglio blew off the Sox doctors while still under contract. Even if not technically obligated now, the least he could do is make a good faith effort to let the Sox know his status. If an agreement can't be reach, at least there was an attempt made.
Baseball is a business and it is about earning the top dollar, however, who's to say he will get more in free agency than he would've gotten from the Sox in arbitration? What if Magglio isn't healthy and all of this is an attempt to sucker some other team into making a huge gamble? It will be interesting to see what happens during the winter meetings..

southsider17
12-06-2004, 10:26 PM
Yeah, Dickallen, I didn't get what dcb33 meant by his post either. It made no sense.:dunno:

Jjav829
12-06-2004, 10:30 PM
Yes, I did contradict myself. In a perfect world, Maggs would realize that the difference between what we would've given him and what anyone else would've given him would in the end not be all that great, considering that very few people will ever attain the financial status he has been able to do so. Unfortunately, it is business, and he's under no obligation to do so. I can understand his reasons for doing what he's doing, however, he didn't have to completely blow the Sox off and avoid them for the last several months. The least he could've done, considering it was the Sox organization that found him, developed him, and helped give him the reputation and economic security he has today, would be to at least let the Sox perform a physical and offer arbitration. Businesses make PR moves all the time to at least make themselves look like they're acting in everyone's best interest...
But don't you think it's in Magglio's best interest if the Sox don't offer him arbitration? If Magglio's looking to increase the number of interested teams, there will certainly be more interest if signing him doesn't cost a 1st rounder. The more teams interested, the better chances of getting that long-term contract. I'd be shocked if this wasn't a huge factor in why he is acting the way he is. That along with Dr. Kenny's reports on Magglio's condition would be enough to make me leery of giving the Sox too much information.

Ol' No. 2
12-06-2004, 10:30 PM
As much as I've generally disagreed with the "Maggs is scum" crowd, there is one area where I think Maggs treated the Sox unfairly. The Sox had every right to know the true condition of his knee before the arb deadline. As part of the Uniform Players Contract, the team has a right to have its doctors examine him, and unless I'm mistaken, they were prevented from doing so. The only reason for preventing this was to discourage them from offering arbitration and enhancing his value as a free agent. But it sucks.

munchman33
12-06-2004, 10:43 PM
Then laugh at me. I suppose its easier to hide behind your misguided beliefs than to actually look at the situation clearly. Magglio is a good ballplayer. I liked watching him play and I wish he was staying around. But he's also a real human being. He has other things to worry about than what Sox fans feel about him. I wanna know what you would do in his situation. You've set yourself up for a nice payday in your free agent year. You start off the season well. You like where you are, but like any other free agent you wonder how much money you can make. Suddenly your plan goes awry as you suffer a career threatening knee injury. Your chances of landing that big contract are now all but gone. You're looking at a small contract, likely for only a year. You might never be the same player again. What do you do?

Here's what I do. I find myself the best agent available. I don't care how big of a scumbag he might be. I want the guy who is going to get me the highest guaranteed contract, just in case I can never play again. I want security. I may have loved where I played before, but now I have bigger issues, bigger needs. I need to make sure I get enough money to secure my future and my families future.

You seem to have trouble separating Magglio's previous comments from the fact that he suffered a disastrous, possible career threatening injury. Things change. Suddenly playing for a team you like in a city you life becomes an afterthought to financial security. I don't believe he lied at all. He said he likes playing here and would like to continue playing here.

Feel free to reply without some jackass comment about how we're becoming like Cubs fans.
:rolling:

No, I actually understand where you're coming from. But none of that means anything if Magglio is healthy enough to play (which I suspect he is).

They only way Magglio isn't a complete ass is if he's actually injured to the point where his career really is in jeopardy, and he suspects he won't play next year. That way, his behavior in not submitting to a medical exam would be because he's hoping the Sox blindly offer him arbitration and he can cash in.

Otherwise, the only reason not to submit to the exams is that he doesn't want to sign here. Regardless of money.

thepaulbowski
12-06-2004, 11:17 PM
Then all the FOJR can claim vindication.
Are you not that bright or do you just not get it ?!?! This has nothing to do with JR, but has everything to do with Magglio. They offered him them money, he wanted as much as Vlad. Please, Vlad has more talent in one half of his body than Maggs & this is before the injury. Maggs was one helluva player while he was here, but good ballplayers who are lying sacks of crap are easy to find.

thepaulbowski
12-06-2004, 11:21 PM
Just for clarification, are you siding with Frank or Maggs in the "Best Sox player" argument? :?:
Does one need to answer that?

dugwood31
12-06-2004, 11:23 PM
Seems to me that this got ugly once Maggs signed Boras. I blame the Sox for not being able to develop even a tiny bit of a working relationship with the biggest and most important agent in the game. If we can't do business with Boras, we just give ourselves one more hurdle to overcome.

Gosox1917
12-06-2004, 11:37 PM
Many of you are saying Maggs was looking for the best contract for him financially. If I were from Venezula, and found a way to make millions of dollars a year I would be happy with what I could get. The Sox offered him a huge contract, and for some reason (whether he wanted out of Chicago, or he just got greedy) he didn't take it. He had his chance, BYYYEEE Magglio.

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 12:10 AM
Then laugh at me. I suppose its easier to hide behind your misguided beliefs than to actually look at the situation clearly. Magglio is a good ballplayer. I liked watching him play and I wish he was staying around. But he's also a real human being. He has other things to worry about than what Sox fans feel about him. I wanna know what you would do in his situation. You've set yourself up for a nice payday in your free agent year. You start off the season well. You like where you are, but like any other free agent you wonder how much money you can make. Suddenly your plan goes awry as you suffer a career threatening knee injury. Your chances of landing that big contract are now all but gone. You're looking at a small contract, likely for only a year. You might never be the same player again. What do you do?

Here's what I do. I find myself the best agent available. I don't care how big of a scumbag he might be. I want the guy who is going to get me the highest guaranteed contract, just in case I can never play again. I want security. I may have loved where I played before, but now I have bigger issues, bigger needs. I need to make sure I get enough money to secure my future and my families future.

You seem to have trouble separating Magglio's previous comments from the fact that he suffered a disastrous, possible career threatening injury. Things change. Suddenly playing for a team you like in a city you life becomes an afterthought to financial security. I don't believe he lied at all. He said he likes playing here and would like to continue playing here.

Feel free to reply without some jackass comment about how we're becoming like Cubs fans.
That's a good synopsis, the only problem is that he asked the Sox for 5/70, and was given an offer that reportedly was 5/70, with deferrals that could at most have taken IIRC 6% off of the total value, or about 4-5mil over the total deal. He then made a comment to the effect that "the money was significantly off", so he was extremely pessmistic about resigning.

That's when he blatantly showed that he wasn't really interested in staying, IMO.

After that, the BME was diagnosed with the accompanying agent switch and refusal to cooperate with Sox docs. Supposedly they didn't even know he had another surgery - they thought he was ready for rehab, and found out instead that he had gone to Austria (which by the way seems extremely odd if it was indeed minor meniscus tears as Boras would have you believe).

That's when he showed that he was not only greedy, but also dishonest. IMO, it is 100% dishonest to circumvent your contract (including the clause that requires him to submit to medical exams) so that you can screw your employer. If his concern was that Sox docs are quacks, it's easy enough to provide MRIs or other exams, or find a mutually agreeable independent doctor to conduct an exam. Instead he said "you'll get info after 12/7", knowing full well that that in essence ensures that he's gone.

Still, I don't hold it against Maggs to do what he thinks is best for him and his family. But I'm certainly not going to be rooting for him, and I certainly think that if/when the Sox get slammed for not resigning "one of their own", it's 100% ludicrous.

Deadguy
12-07-2004, 12:45 AM
I say good for Magglio in giving the middle finger to the Sox. Lets see here, they tried to deal him before the injury for Nomar because they KNEW they had no REAL intention of signing him. Way to treat your best player. After the whole trade with Nomar blew up, they tried to save some face and offered him a deferred contract(fairly certain this is what I heard). We don't know, and will probably never know the exact details, but I can be pretty certain that the White Sox and Magglio (or his agent) discussed a possible contract discussion long before the Sox tried to ship him off to the Red Sox. It's obvious that those discussions were going nowhere, so the Sox simply tried to make a move that they thought might better the club. I don't believe for one second that the Sox initiated contract extention talks after this particular episode. For all we know, Magglio never had any intention of doing anything other than attempting to test the FA market, regardless of what the Sox did.

Now that Magglio tells the Sox to go scratch, he is the bad guy? Sorry, I don't and won't buy this ownerships crap. I don't think he's a bad guy. He's simply looking out for his own best interests. Nothing really wrong with that, but that just makes him like just about every other professional athlete that lies to the fanbase and goes where the most money is being offered.

Deadguy
12-07-2004, 01:00 AM
Offense is everything to you isn't it?

Magg's offensive deficiency compared to Thomas is made up by his defense (Maggs is/was above average) and speed on the basepaths. At least IMHO.

:whatever:
In 2001 and 2002, Magglio was obviously better. 2003 is debateable, however, since they both had 23 win shares (along with E. Lo), so arguments could be made for either player. Other publications such as baseball prospectus gave Magglio a WARP3 of over 9, while Frank was around 6.5, which would indicate that their methods for measuring a player's overall value indicated that Magglio was more valuable. I don't think it really matters that much, at this point, anyway.

As far as DHs and their value to a team, I don't think too many Red Sox fans are complaining about David Ortiz because he doesn't hang around first base for 9 innings, grabbing balls that come within 3 feet to his left or right, and shagging about 10-15 balls a game. Guys like Jim Thome and Jeff Bagwell aren't paid the big bucks because of what they do defensively.

OurBitchinMinny
12-07-2004, 01:59 AM
They will regret this for many years. Maggs will come back and maggs will be as good if not better. You dont just give up on a guy because he is hurt. I love the white sox, but this team is run by ****ing morons. JR better sell or die soon. This is getting old.

pudge
12-07-2004, 02:23 AM
They will regret this for many years. Maggs will come back and maggs will be as good if not better. You dont just give up on a guy because he is hurt. I love the white sox, but this team is run by ****ing morons. JR better sell or die soon. This is getting old.
I really wouldn't be too sure about that. Everyone seems to be assuming this is not a serious injury, and I'm just not so sure. Don't you remember the threads in WSI that detailed medical journals pointing to serious complications with bone marrow edema? Plus, Maggs is about to cross the wrong side of 30. I just don't know. I think we have to say good bye.

BigEdWalsh
12-07-2004, 03:09 AM
Fare thee well, Maggs....unless you go to the Flubs.

Man Soo Lee
12-07-2004, 03:21 AM
Go back and read the CBA. Max deferral = 20%. From the deferred compensation section (p.55-56) of the CBA (http://roadsidephotos.com/baseball/BasicAgreement.pdf): There shall be no limitations on either the amount of deferred compensation or the percentage of total compensation attributable to deferred compensation for which a Uniform Player’s Contract may provide. Maximum deferral time = 2yrs past end of contract. From the same section: Deferred compensation obligations incurred in a Contract executed on or after September 30, 2002 must be fully funded, in an amount equal to the present value of the total deferred compensation obligation, on or before the second July 1 following the championship season in which the deferred compensation is earned. Later in that section it says that "a Club may fund deferred compensation obligations in such manner as it elects," so "funded" doesn't seem to mean "paid to the player" in the previous quote. My impression is that teams have to set aside money to pay their deferred contracts within two years of the money being earned, not that all deferred money must be paid within a specific time frame.

From the "Uniform Player's Contract" section (p.207): Nothing herein shall interfere with the right of the Club and the Player by special covenant herein to mutually agree upon a method of payment whereby part of the Player’s salary for the above year can be deferred to subsequent years. Unless I'm misreading the legalese (which is entirely possible), I don't see any restrictions on the way a team and player can agree to structure deferred payments.

southsider17
12-07-2004, 06:35 AM
In 2001 and 2002, Magglio was obviously better. 2003 is debateable, however, since they both had 23 win shares (along with E. Lo), so arguments could be made for either player. Other publications such as baseball prospectus gave Magglio a WARP3 of over 9, while Frank was around 6.5, which would indicate that their methods for measuring a player's overall value indicated that Magglio was more valuable. I don't think it really matters that much, at this point, anyway.

As far as DHs and their value to a team, I don't think too many Red Sox fans are complaining about David Ortiz because he doesn't hang around first base for 9 innings, grabbing balls that come within 3 feet to his left or right, and shagging about 10-15 balls a game. Guys like Jim Thome and Jeff Bagwell aren't paid the big bucks because of what they do defensively.
Informative response! Good point on Ortiz, but Manny was their leading MVP candidate (and, yeah, I know, not for his defense).

Soxzilla
12-07-2004, 07:54 AM
I'm glad you're not a White Sox scout. They would be terrible.
Why? Because I'm stating a fact that Frank is not only a better player talent wise ... he's also better in terms of financial obligations. But wait! He hasn't been a regular first basemen in YEARS! Well, that stopgap we signed at first base hasn't been doing too bad, if I recall ...

I don't even understand how you guys can compare these two players, sure they are both very talented, bu Frank is leaps and bounds a much bigger part of this organization.

Of course ... how many MVP's has magglio won?:rolleyes:

The reason I could care less what Maggs does, lies within the fact he didn't even let the Sox have a chance at giving him arbitration. I can't fault anyone from the Sox organization for this blunder ... remember a few months ago how KW said everything was going alright with Maggs and they had just talked. And yet ... Maggs goes to the media and blasts the organization?

Hmmmm.

Maggs never wanted to stay here ... unless he got Vlad money. And no, he is definitely not Vladimir Geurrero.

PaulDrake
12-07-2004, 08:34 AM
I say good for Magglio in giving the middle finger to the Sox. Lets see here, they tried to deal him before the injury for Nomar because they KNEW they had no REAL intention of signing him. Way to treat your best player. After the whole trade with Nomar blew up, they tried to save some face and offered him a deferred contract(fairly certain this is what I heard).


Now that Magglio tells the Sox to go scratch, he is the bad guy? Sorry, I don't and won't buy this ownerships crap. We may be wrong, but I doubt it. You have voiced exactly my take on this situation.

Rocky Soprano
12-07-2004, 08:35 AM
No matter what, Maggs was a great player when we was here and I will miss him a lot.


Thanks for the memories Maggs, wish it didnt have to end like this. :(:

The Wimperoo
12-07-2004, 08:38 AM
Can someone explain to me why we aren't offering arbitration to Maggs. I thought in order to get the draft picks we had to offer arbitration. I am slightly confused on the situation.

Jjav829
12-07-2004, 08:43 AM
Can someone explain to me why we aren't offering arbitration to Maggs. I thought in order to get the draft picks we had to offer arbitration. I am slightly confused on the situation.We won't be getting the draft picks. Magglio made $14 million last year. If the Sox offer him arbitration, and he accepts, the lowest possible figure the Sox can offer in arbitration is a 20% reduction from last years salary, which comes to $11.2 million. Now if he is healthy, that's not a bad figure. But the Sox don't know how healthy he is. Therefore, if they offer him arbitration, and Magglio isn't truly healthy, he can accept and be guaranteed $11.2 million that he might not find anywhere else. I gotta admit, I find this whole thing to be BS that you can't get a player to take a physical before you decide whether to offer them arbitration. Something needs to be changed here.

PaulDrake
12-07-2004, 08:54 AM
It's obvious that people have their own opinions about this. It's unfortunate that the majority of Magglio supporters are wearing their Magglio-goggles and not trying to really understand what's going on.

Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me. You remind me a lot of mindless Cubs fans who sware by their messiah, Mark Prior, who could do no wrong no matter what a dick he really is. That's wrong. Some of us just know a little better how Sox management operates.

munchman33
12-07-2004, 09:10 AM
That's wrong. Some of us just know a little better how Sox management operates.
Which has nothing to do with Magglio's treatment of the fans. Believe me, I understand that White Sox management is not innoncent in all of this. But to think for a second that Magglio, despite his comments to the contrary, has any loyalty to us if folly. And others assertions that players don't have a sense of loyalty to fans simply makes me laugh. If we lived in a society where social class and economic status were number one, then I might agree with you. But I think our last election proved that wrong.

But keep on singing the praises of Saint Magglio. If he winds up on the northside, I hope you follow him there.

Foulke29
12-07-2004, 09:20 AM
Then who was?! And don't say Thomas. If a DH is a team's best player ..... that's just a sad indictment.
Thomas' bat on an average day is better than Magglio's bat on his best day - end of story. Hell, Carlos Lee has a better bat when he's hot than Magglio has during a hot steak.

Foulke29
12-07-2004, 09:25 AM
What is amazing to me is that some of you are acting as if losing Ordonez is NOTHING. You guys act as if he is just some average player that will easily be replaced.

When Ordonez says what really went down we can all draw our own conclusions.
Magglio is easily replaced. Think of it this way:

Millar or Dye could play his position for a fifth of the money that Magglio wants - and not only that but be healthier than Maggs stands to be.

Take that extra $10MM and use it on a shortstop or a pitcher or beef up the bullpen - rinse, repeat!

Justafan
12-07-2004, 09:26 AM
Thomas' bat on an average day is better than Magglio's bat on his best day - end of story. Hell, Carlos Lee has a better bat when he's hot than Magglio has during a hot steak.

:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)" Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You'll remember me when I'm gone and Carlos never approaches the .314 avg I put up every year".

Foulke29
12-07-2004, 09:29 AM
Then laugh at me. I suppose its easier to hide behind your misguided beliefs than to actually look at the situation clearly. Magglio is a good ballplayer. I liked watching him play and I wish he was staying around. But he's also a real human being. He has other things to worry about than what Sox fans feel about him. I wanna know what you would do in his situation. You've set yourself up for a nice payday in your free agent year. You start off the season well. You like where you are, but like any other free agent you wonder how much money you can make. Suddenly your plan goes awry as you suffer a career threatening knee injury. Your chances of landing that big contract are now all but gone. You're looking at a small contract, likely for only a year. You might never be the same player again. What do you do?

Here's what I do. I find myself the best agent available. I don't care how big of a scumbag he might be. I want the guy who is going to get me the highest guaranteed contract, just in case I can never play again. I want security. I may have loved where I played before, but now I have bigger issues, bigger needs. I need to make sure I get enough money to secure my future and my families future.

You seem to have trouble separating Magglio's previous comments from the fact that he suffered a disastrous, possible career threatening injury. Things change. Suddenly playing for a team you like in a city you life becomes an afterthought to financial security. I don't believe he lied at all. He said he likes playing here and would like to continue playing here.

Feel free to reply without some jackass comment about how we're becoming like Cubs fans.
To me - and no offense - the only thing more misguided about this post is the concept of millionaires arguing with billionaires.

munchman33
12-07-2004, 09:32 AM
:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)" Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You'll remember me when I'm gone and Carlos never approaches the .314 avg I put up every year".
I suggest you take the goggles off and look at the numbers. If Magglio is putting up a .314 every year, why is his career batting average only .307?

:maggs
"I think it's because Justafan looks good in wool!"

Justafan
12-07-2004, 09:35 AM
I suggest you take the goggles off and look at the numbers. If Magglio is putting up a .314 every year, why is his career batting average only .307?

:maggs
"I think it's because Justafan looks good in wool!"



:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)" The last 4 years PRIOR to me getting hurt, do some homework".

southsider17
12-07-2004, 09:36 AM
Thomas' bat on an average day is better than Magglio's bat on his best day - end of story. Hell, Carlos Lee has a better bat when he's hot than Magglio has during a hot steak.
Magglio has alot more hot streaks than CLee.

For the last couple of years (2002 and on) Magglio's bat has been just as good as Franks. Before that, yes, Frank swamped Maggs. Overall, injuries aside, Maggs contributed more to the Sox than Frank did for the last few years and , injuries aside, the difference would continue to increase as the years went by.

Justafan
12-07-2004, 09:38 AM
:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
"Can anyone tell me how many all-star games I have been to compared to Frank and Carlos combined, anyone"?

munchman33
12-07-2004, 09:43 AM
:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)" The last 4 years PRIOR to me getting hurt, do some homework".
You're bias is really starting to annoy me. Sure, he's consistant. If by consistant you mean 3 of the last 5 years he hit your mark.

I mean, c'mon. Magglio was a good ballplayer. But let's not kid ourselves here. He was consistantly above average. Never a superstar. He had one really stellar year, and has had two down years since then. Sure, he was injured last year, but his play up until injury was well below even his standards.

:maggs
"You tell 'em Justafan. 3 out of 5 ain't bad!"

Justafan
12-07-2004, 09:46 AM
Furthermore, if any of you need further evidence that Magglio was expendable to the Sox, look no further then KW selling SOME OF YOU on the great Joe Borchard.


:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
" Joe Borchard? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

munchman33
12-07-2004, 09:47 AM
Furthermore, if any of you need further evidence that Magglio was expendable to the Sox, look no further then KW selling SOME OF YOU on the great Joe Borchard.


:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)
" Joe Borchard? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
What's your point? That the White Sox felt they needed to replace Magglio? I wonder why that was?

Justafan
12-07-2004, 09:49 AM
I mean, c'mon. Magglio was a good ballplayer. But let's not kid ourselves here. He was consistantly above average. Never a superstar.

Had he played ANYWHERE else then with the Sox, he would have been. Mark it down.

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 09:52 AM
Look, there's no doubt that a healthy Maggs would be our best OF. But there's also little doubt that he's not the team's best player (when healthy). He's also not among the top, elite stars in baseball. Maggs best year ever posted him a .978OPS, which in 2004 would have ranked him 14th in baseball, so he was still on the cusp of being an elite star but not there yet until he could match or exceed his career high. It's possible that could happen, but certainly not a given.

By comparison, in Frank's 12 full seasons in the bigs (discounting the injury years & his rookie year), he's bettered Maggs career high of .978 7 times. The past 2 years, Frank posted OPSs of .952 & .997 where Maggs posted .926 & .836.

Maggs is a very very good player, and we certainly don't have anyone near as good to replace him. But let's not go overboard here.

munchman33
12-07-2004, 09:54 AM
Had he played ANYWHERE else then with the Sox, he would have been. Mark it down.
I don't need the media to tell me who the real stars are. Maybe you do, but I have suspicions that you're really....JustaCubsfan....and here to hype up Magglio before the Cubs sign him.

Quit trolling. We know what we had in Magglio. And we're extremely displeased to see him leave. But he's no savior, and this team has too many holes to overpay for a good but regressing star player.

Justafan
12-07-2004, 09:59 AM
I don't need the media to tell me who the real stars are. Maybe you do, but I have suspicions that you're really....JustaCubsfan....and here to hype up Magglio before the Cubs sign him.

Quit trolling. We know what we had in Magglio. And we're extremely displeased to see him leave. But he's no savior, and this team has too many holes to overpay for a good but regressing star player.
The Cubs? Give me a break! He is not going to the Cubs. I thought that was a possibility but not anymore. I am not trolling and take offense at the insinuation. I just happen to feel Magglio will not be replaced and for those of you feel otherwise, that is fine. Sorry this has gotten heated, but it's the way I feel about Magglio.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 10:02 AM
The Cubs? Give me a break! He is not going to the Cubs. I thought that was a possibility but not anymore. I am not trolling and take offense at the insinuation. I just happen to feel Magglio will not be replaced and for those of you feel otherwise, that is fine. Sorry this has gotten heated, but it's the way I feel about Magglio.Get a grip, people. It's not the end of the world. NOBODY is irreplacable.

CarlosMay'sThumb
12-07-2004, 10:02 AM
Thomas' bat on an average day is better than Magglio's bat on his best day - end of story. Hell, Carlos Lee has a better bat when he's hot than Magglio has during a hot steak.
Career batting avg for Thomas = .308, for Ordonez .307. But last 3 years before 2004, Thomas is .221, .252 and .267 and Ordonez is .305, .320 and .317.

Something's wrong with your statement there, bud.

Magglio was the best player on the Sox, period.

End of Story.

southsider17
12-07-2004, 10:05 AM
Get a grip, people. It's not the end of the world. NOBODY is irreplacable.
True. I still think he was our best player but I'm glad he's gone considering his injury and the $$$. Let's just hope KW spends the savings wisely!

munchman33
12-07-2004, 10:05 AM
Career batting avg for Thomas = .308, for Ordonez .307. But last 3 years before 2004, Thomas is .221, .252 and .267 and Ordonez is .305, .320 and .317.

Something's wrong with your statement there, bud.

Magglio was the best player on the Sox, period.

End of Story.
So you'll include years when Frank was coming off injury, but won't include Magglio's injured season? And you forget about power, OBP, slugging, etc.

But I guess batting average is the end all be all for determining the worth of two Sluggers!

Foulke29
12-07-2004, 10:08 AM
:maggs (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)" Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You'll remember me when I'm gone and Carlos never approaches the .314 avg I put up every year".
:caballo You do realize I hit .291 two years ago and .305 last year, don't you? I also at a little 28 game hitting streak going as well... and drew comparable walks to what Magglio does. Did I mention that I'm also much younger with a better attitude that Magglio?

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 10:09 AM
Career batting avg for Thomas = .308, for Ordonez .307. But last 3 years before 2004, Thomas is .221, .252 and .267 and Ordonez is .305, .320 and .317.

Something's wrong with your statement there, bud.

Magglio was the best player on the Sox, period.

End of Story.
You're 100% right, batting average is by far the best metric with which to evaluate offensive players. It's also excellent use of stats to include a year of serious injury for Frank, that makes for a very meaningful comparison.

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 10:09 AM
True. I still think he was our best player but I'm glad he's gone considering his injury and the $$$. Let's just hope KW spends the savings wisely!He certainly was over the last few years, although in his prime, I'd take Frank Thomas in a heartbeat.

Foulke29
12-07-2004, 10:11 AM
Career batting avg for Thomas = .308, for Ordonez .307. But last 3 years before 2004, Thomas is .221, .252 and .267 and Ordonez is .305, .320 and .317.

Something's wrong with your statement there, bud.

Magglio was the best player on the Sox, period.

End of Story.
Well, then here's volume 2 bud - Thomas was injured in those years, and why don't you compare RBI totals and OBP instead of average - it's too one dimensional and narrowminded.

What about 2004 - why don't we throw in an injured Mags numbers and compare them to an injured Thomas' numbers and see how they stack up.

In addition, let's take a look at what Thomas did at the age that Magglio was those three years.

Finally, you tell me - who put more butts in the seats at Comiskey and the Cell?

Game - set - Match!

Foulke29
12-07-2004, 10:12 AM
Career batting avg for Thomas = .308, for Ordonez .307. But last 3 years before 2004, Thomas is .221, .252 and .267 and Ordonez is .305, .320 and .317.

Something's wrong with your statement there, bud.

Magglio was the best player on the Sox, period.

End of Story.
Oh yeah - Frank Thomas is much better than Carlos May ever was

:supernana:

southsider17
12-07-2004, 10:14 AM
He certainly was over the last few years, although in his prime, I'd take Frank Thomas in a heartbeat.
Totally agree! :D:

duke of dorwood
12-07-2004, 10:14 AM
:tomatoaward

Jurr
12-07-2004, 10:15 AM
You can go on and on about Maggs vs. Frank, but truth be told, they're BOTH ex-players, as far as I'm concerned. I think Frank's foot and ankle injury is going to be a terrible thorn in his side, hindering him from ever gaining his skills back. I hope I'm wrong, but the transfer of force he puts on his foot is unbearable, especially on an already shaky paw.

duke of dorwood
12-07-2004, 10:17 AM
The fact remains that no one that leaves this organization ever laments it. There's a lot of stuff that players know about that we dont-I dont begrudge Maggs getting even for something they may have said to him.

CarlosMay'sThumb
12-07-2004, 10:26 AM
But I guess batting average is the end all be all for determining the worth of two Sluggers!
It is when somebody says that Frank on an "average" day is better than Magglio.

PaulDrake
12-07-2004, 10:29 AM
I don't need the media to tell me who the real stars are. Maybe you do, but I have suspicions that you're really....JustaCubsfan....and here to hype up Magglio before the Cubs sign him.

Quit trolling. We know what we had in Magglio. And we're extremely displeased to see him leave. But he's no savior, and this team has too many holes to overpay for a good but regressing star player. Quit calling everyone who disagrees with you a Cub fan. What's the matter, someone take your favorite rattle? I can't speak for others but I just don't accept the Sox spin on this matter. As for Maggs, nobody is canonizing him. Regardless of his OPS or standing vis a vis legitimate superstars like Guerrero a check of the records will reveal that he is arguably the best RFer the Sox ever had. Whether or not he is healthy and regardless of who he signs with he will surely be missed and the Sox have no one even remotely as good to replace him.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 10:33 AM
As Kent Brockman would say 'here's my two cents...'

The White Sox have every right to examine Maggs given the nature of his injury and the amount of money involved. However I don't blame or hold Maggs accountable for what he did. Those who feel he 'owes' the Sox anything are delusional. He gambled...he apparently lost. That's the way it goes...both sides move along.

The point that was brought up about working with Scott Boras was absolutely correct. The name of the game is talent....acquiring as much of it as you possible can by any and all means. The fact that the Sox personal hated of Boras is preventing them from doing this is laughable and bad business given the number of clients he has evey season. This is another example of the Sox organization's vindictiveness and pettiness biting them on the ass.

The bottom line is this friends and neighbors, the Sox have a huge hole in right field that certainly isn't going to be filled by Joe Borchard and Carl Everett...time for Kenny Williams to be 'creative' (again.....)

Taking out the personalities the reality is that fate one again conspired to stick it up the rear end of the Chicago White Sox team on the field.

Finally Munchman said: "Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me..."

Just like the **** sicken me with being more concerned about the size of profits over the number of championships won in the last 25 years.

Lip

southsider17
12-07-2004, 11:03 AM
As Kent Brockman would say 'here's my two cents...'

The White Sox have every right to examine Maggs given the nature of his injury and the amount of money involved. However I don't blame or hold Maggs accountable for what he did. Those who feel he 'owes' the Sox anything are delusional. He gambled...he apparently lost. That's the way it goes...both sides move along.

The point that was brought up about working with Scott Boras was absolutely correct. The name of the game is talent....acquiring as much of it as you possible can by any and all means. The fact that the Sox personal hated of Boras is preventing them from doing this is laughable and bad business given the number of clients he has evey season. This is another example of the Sox organization's vindictiveness and pettiness biting them on the ass.

The bottom line is this friends and neighbors, the Sox have a huge hole in right field that certainly isn't going to be filled by Joe Borchard and Carl Everett...time for Kenny Williams to be 'creative' (again.....)

Taking out the personalities the reality is that fate one again conspired to stick it up the rear end of the Chicago White Sox team on the field.

Finally Munchman said: "Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me..."

Just like the **** sicken me with being more concerned about the size of profits over the number of championships won in the last 25 years.

Lip
This may be a little off subject here but I'd like to comment on your last sentence. Believe me, I'm not a **** nor, as you will see, a FOKW. Your post are, as anyone can see, pretty pessimistic. Even more than my thoughts on the WSox. But you usually bring up valid arguments.

As in any business, and baseball is a BIG business, you can only spend as much as you bring in for an extended period of time. In a given year, you can throw that rule out the window if you have a chance to attain something that would, in the long run, provide even more income, like a World Series. I believe JR has tried that one year approach and gotten burned (as many other owners I'm sure have) and now he's playing it safe/cheap. Maybe, after a couple of years of profit, he will do that again or maybe he's waiting for a GM who instills some confidence in him with regard to getting the most bang for your buck. If I were JR, I don't see that in KW (not yet, at least).

JR owns this team to make money, as the vast majority of owners do. I don't see this team as a Randy Johnson away from the AL Pennant. So if I were JR, I would wait to see if KW could put together a nucleus that is. Honestly, I'm skeptical. I chide JR more for cheaping out on player evaluation/development talent than on-field talent.

:KW "Don't worry, I've got a plan. By the way, what letter comes after Z?"

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 11:22 AM
Southside:

If Uncle Jerry wants to make more money let him take his millions and invest them in real estate, stocks, mutual funds or T-notes. They will all return much more then a sports franchise.

If you are a sharp businessman (which Uncle Jerry most definitely is) why run a sports team trying to make money? That makes zero sense when you can make so much more money with less of a risk elsewhere.

If you are going to run a sports team then play to win. That's the only reason that makes sense given the fact that more money can be made elsewhere.

The way he is running this franchise is accomplishing nothing. He is making money but he can make more elsewhere and he is NOT winning anything with his current 'fiscal responsibility' philosophy. The record bears that out. He is losing market share to the Cubs every season as well as losing fans and advertising / marketing money & deals.

If he was CEO of any other multi million dollar business he would have been removed by the board of directors years ago for the results that have taken place under his stewardship.

As shown both on and off the field the Sox are mediocre at best. That's no way to make more money nor win a championship is it?

Lip

southsider17
12-07-2004, 11:35 AM
Southside:

If Uncle Jerry wants to make more money let him take his millions and invest them in real estate, stocks, mutual funds or T-notes. They will all return much more then a sports franchise.

If you are a sharp businessman (which Uncle Jerry most definitely is) why run a sports team trying to make money? That makes zero sense when you can make so much more money with less of a risk elsewhere.

If you are going to run a sports team then play to win. That's the only reason that makes sense given the fact that more money can be made elsewhere.

The way he is running this franchise is accomplishing nothing. He is making money but he can make more elsewhere and he is NOT winning anything with his current 'fiscal responsibility' philosophy. The record bears that out. He is losing market share to the Cubs every season as well as losing fans and advertising / marketing money & deals.

If he was CEO of any other multi million dollar business he would have been removed by the board of directors years ago for the results that have taken place under his stewardship.

As shown both on and off the field the Sox are mediocre at best. That's no way to make more money nor win a championship is it?

Lip
Maybe he's just not so bright. Some of the things he's said and done would support that. There's also ego to consider (and that is a BIG reason why alot of millionaires become owners). He made his money in real estate, I believe, which is how I'm making mine. It's a nice field because you don't have to have exceptional people skills which I would say JR doesn't have. He has done all the things you just said but your applying your values to him. I'm sure he doesn't have the same values and priorities.

I don't like nor agree with what he's done to the White Sox. I'm just trying to state my opinion of what his motivation is for how he runs the team.

But, that said, on this we both agree:

:selljerry

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 11:39 AM
Southside:

If Uncle Jerry wants to make more money let him take his millions and invest them in real estate, stocks, mutual funds or T-notes. They will all return much more then a sports franchise.

If you are a sharp businessman (which Uncle Jerry most definitely is) why run a sports team trying to make money? That makes zero sense when you can make so much more money with less of a risk elsewhere.

If you are going to run a sports team then play to win. That's the only reason that makes sense given the fact that more money can be made elsewhere.

The way he is running this franchise is accomplishing nothing. He is making money but he can make more elsewhere and he is NOT winning anything with his current 'fiscal responsibility' philosophy. The record bears that out. He is losing market share to the Cubs every season as well as losing fans and advertising / marketing money & deals.

If he was CEO of any other multi million dollar business he would have been removed by the board of directors years ago for the results that have taken place under his stewardship.

As shown both on and off the field the Sox are mediocre at best. That's no way to make more money nor win a championship is it?

LipThere's a big logical inconsistency here, Lip. You complain that the Sox aren't putting a quality product on the field, and so are losing market share to the Cubs. Is that how the Cubs GAINED market share? Up until about 1990 or so, both teams were pretty evenly matched at the box office. The team that was doing better on the field generally did better at the box office. Then the Cubs began gaining market share, leading to the position we're in today, where the Cubs consistently outdraw the Sox. For most of that period the Cubs just plain sucked. They couldn't even put together back to back winning seasons. So how, then, does it follow that putting a quality product on the field is the key to regaining market share when the Cubs gained the market share in the first place while putting an inferior product on the field?

Certainly, fans come out in bigger numbers to see a winning team. But unless the Sox were to have multiple WS appearances, I don't see them reversing the trend just by improving the on-field product. The Cubs gained market share by marketing the pants of the Sox. If you can sell "Lovable Losers" you can sell anything. If you want to see REAL incompetence, it's the Sox marketing over the last 10+ years that's to blame for losing market share.

There are a lot more people who don't know diddle about baseball, but just want to jump on the bandwagon and swoon over Sammy Sosa's mighty whiffs and Kerry Wood's K's. If the Sox want to regain market share, this is the group they're going to have to attract.

eshunn2001
12-07-2004, 11:55 AM
Hey, That A-Rod guy is a pretty damned good player. I mean he could hit for average, power, has good speed and plays gold glove caliber defense at SHORTSTOP. I cannot believe those stupid freakin Rangers got rid of him.

What I am trying to say is.... NO ONE is irreplacable. Even the great Magglio Ordonez. I wish him luck. Unless he goes to the Cubs then i hope he hits worse than Borchard

wdelaney72
12-07-2004, 01:02 PM
As much as I've generally disagreed with the "Maggs is scum" crowd, there is one area where I think Maggs treated the Sox unfairly. The Sox had every right to know the true condition of his knee before the arb deadline. As part of the Uniform Players Contract, the team has a right to have its doctors examine him, and unless I'm mistaken, they were prevented from doing so. The only reason for preventing this was to discourage them from offering arbitration and enhancing his value as a free agent. But it sucks.
You are exactly correct and this precisely why I think Boras and now Maggs are scum. This was a giant middle finger to the organization and the fans.

For all those claiming he was bitter about being traded to the Red Sox last off-season, why would he have minded being traded to a legit WS contender?

Maggs wanted out of the White Sox, and on his way out he created some damage, in the form of lost draft picks. Shame on him, that's not business, that's being a little bitch.

Iwritecode
12-07-2004, 01:13 PM
Certainly, fans come out in bigger numbers to see a winning team. But unless the Sox were to have multiple WS appearances, I don't see them reversing the trend just by improving the on-field product. The Cubs gained market share by marketing the pants of the Sox. If you can sell "Lovable Losers" you can sell anything. If you want to see REAL incompetence, it's the Sox marketing over the last 10+ years that's to blame for losing market share.

It's much easier to market a team when you can use a national newspaper to hype the team and ballfield and degrad your closet competitor.

It also helps to play half your games on a national cable channel.

Lastly, most Cubs "fans" are sheep. Sox fans are smarter than that. That's why better product on the field = higher attendance on the southside.

That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

BRDSR
12-07-2004, 01:14 PM
Financial security? Didn't he already make about 30 million playing ball already? Please.
No kidding. If things really go awry and Magglio can't make any more money playing baseball, I'll give him my word that he's got a job with me in the lawncare industry. The hours are good and the wages are liveable, he'd have no problem. But thats assuming he stayed with the White Sox. At this point I'm not guaranteeing Magglio anything. Take that, Maggs!

Ol' No. 2
12-07-2004, 01:19 PM
It's much easier to market a team when you can use a national newspaper to hype the team and ballfield and degrad your closet competitor.

It also helps to play half your games on a national cable channel.

Lastly, most Cubs "fans" are sheep. Sox fans are smarter than that. That's why better product on the field = higher attendance on the southside.

That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.Most "fans" don't know enough about baseball to fill up a tattoo on a gnat's ass. Sadly, it's part of the reason why the steroid mess was allowed to go on - most fans don't care if the players are juiced, they just like to see home runs. A better product will boost attendance somewhat, but if you want to approach 3 million to the south side, you're going to have to attract some of those sheep.

Nick@Nite
12-07-2004, 02:44 PM
Who's Magglio? :anon:

anewman35
12-07-2004, 03:33 PM
Finally Munchman said: "Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me..."

Just like the **** sicken me with being more concerned about the size of profits over the number of championships won in the last 25 years.

Lip
You just don't get it. NOBODY here gives a **** about what kind of profits Jerry makes. We just realize that HE cares, and we think that's ok.

He wants a championship, but he doesn't want to go broke doing it. Can you blame him? If somebody gave you the option, would you have the White Sox win the World Series if it meant that YOU, personally, would lose everything you had? I realize that this is more extreme than the actual situation is, but you just have to realize there are potential consequences to losing millions of dollars a year. Just because they don't affect you doesn't mean they don't exist.

munchman33
12-07-2004, 04:21 PM
As Kent Brockman would say 'here's my two cents...'

The White Sox have every right to examine Maggs given the nature of his injury and the amount of money involved. However I don't blame or hold Maggs accountable for what he did. Those who feel he 'owes' the Sox anything are delusional. He gambled...he apparently lost. That's the way it goes...both sides move along.

The point that was brought up about working with Scott Boras was absolutely correct. The name of the game is talent....acquiring as much of it as you possible can by any and all means. The fact that the Sox personal hated of Boras is preventing them from doing this is laughable and bad business given the number of clients he has evey season. This is another example of the Sox organization's vindictiveness and pettiness biting them on the ass.

The bottom line is this friends and neighbors, the Sox have a huge hole in right field that certainly isn't going to be filled by Joe Borchard and Carl Everett...time for Kenny Williams to be 'creative' (again.....)

Taking out the personalities the reality is that fate one again conspired to stick it up the rear end of the Chicago White Sox team on the field.

Finally Munchman said: "Honestly, you guys are really starting to sicken me..."

Just like the **** sicken me with being more concerned about the size of profits over the number of championships won in the last 25 years.

Lip
Well, as a member of ****, I have to say that I am not concerned with profits over championships. I simply understand that, as owner, that is Jerry Reinsdorf's right.

Other than that, Lip, I have to say its the closest I've ever come to agreeing with one of your posts!:D:

Soxzilla
12-07-2004, 04:22 PM
I just listened to some steam and poured a 40 for Magglio.:cool:

:weewillie
*Crosses over chest* "Amen brutha ... for reals"

I have to admire KW not jumping the gun on this deal ... the more read and think about it.

EDIT - Anyone find it ironic that Magglio's career homeruns are currently at 187. Maybe this knee problem KILLED his career!


.....and I'm going to hell.

starboy0
12-07-2004, 04:31 PM
Magglio was a great player for the Sox and I will miss him. I think the Sox gave him a fair offer of $70 million and he didn't take it. He could easily have taken that and by clipping coupons and sending the wife to work he wouldn't even miss that extra million(s) or so he might get with another team.

We brought him up, gave him his start, gave him a fair offer and now he's gone. Team loyalty? Probably a passe sentiment in today's world. I wonder how much pressure players feel from other players and agents to go where the biggest money is in order to drive up the salaries.

Maybe Magglio could have given a rat's ass about staying with the Sox which is too bad. But I couldn't see offering him a ridiculously large salary and mortgaging all possible franchise future. Look at the Diamondbacks. Those huge salaries won them a world series but now they are in severe trouble.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 07:16 PM
Anewman:

I would lose everything in a heartbeat for a World Series title. Is that clear enough for you...maybe YOU just don't get it.

When this owner was able to extort a new stadium without speading one dime of his own money, when that owner then got a lease agreement that John Heylar said in the book Lords Of The Realm deserved 'immediate induction into the sweetheart lease Hall of Fame,' and finally when that owner then got another sucker to fix up the abortion of a stadium that HE designed and pushed for again without spending one dime of his millions, then yes he OWES the city and taxpayers and fans a little more then BS and 'fiscal responsibility' every friggin' season.

No.2: The Cubs took over the town and became a national by word for two reasons...both connected to Uncle Jerry directly. Harry Caray and SportsVision.

Nuff said?

Lip

anewman35
12-07-2004, 07:23 PM
Anewman:

I would lose everything in a heartbeat for a World Series title. Is that clear enough for you...maybe YOU just don't get it.

I love baseball. I love the White Sox. But I wouldn't give up everything I own for them. Does that make me a bad fan? I don't know. As much as I'd love the White Sox to win, there are more important things, you know?

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 07:25 PM
and finally when that owner then got another sucker to fix up the abortion of a stadium that HE designed and pushed for again without spending one dime of his millions,
Allow me to introduce you to a concept called "marketing". USCellular's name is much more public in this town. If you think they just hand over $$$ without getting appropriate value in return, you're nuts.

No.2: The Cubs took over the town and became a national by word for two reasons...both connected to Uncle Jerry directly. Harry Caray and SportsVision.

Yeah, Tribune ownership & the rise of Wrigleyville had nothing to do with it. If the Sox had only stayed on free TV and kept Harry, I'm sure the Cubs would be much less popular than the Sox.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2004, 08:00 PM
Flight:

You are being cynical but you're right they WOULD be less popular then they are now. Don't minimize having 120 games a year on free TV to go along with the Pied Piper in the broadcast booth and the impact it had on a generation of fans who missed watching the Sox say in 1983 because only 20 or so games were on Free TV.

Couple that with the fact that the Cubs happened to win something in 1984 and the results are obvious. Allow me to introduce you to something called reality.

and Anewman I'm not saying you are a bad fan I'm just saying that for me I'd give everything I own except my wife and son for a World Championship.
Lip

Flight #24
12-07-2004, 08:05 PM
Flight:

You are being cynical but you're right they WOULD be less popular then they are now. Don't minimize having 120 games a year on free TV to go along with the Pied Piper in the broadcast booth and the impact it had on a generation of fans who missed watching the Sox say in 1983 because only 20 or so games were on Free TV.

Couple that with the fact that the Cubs happened to win something in 1984 and the results are obvious. Allow me to introduce you to something called reality.

and Anewman I'm not saying you are a bad fan I'm just saying that for me I'd give everything I own except my wife and son for a World Championship.
Lip
Don't get me wrong, obviously those decisions impacted the balance. But I think it's unrealistic to think that the combination of Tribune marketing and the rise of Wrigleyville wouldn't have resulted in the Cubs taking a sizeable lead in marketshare. As has been noted before, there is some evidence that prior to JR's arrival, the Cubs held an advantage. Add the Trib & Lakeview to the mix and I think nothing short of absolute dominance on the field by the Sox would have been able to prevent the Cubs being more popular.

Would it be as pronounced as it is now? No. But IMO it would still be at best 50-50, and likely worse than that.

southsider17
12-07-2004, 09:17 PM
Anewman:

I would lose everything in a heartbeat for a World Series title. Is that clear enough for you...maybe YOU just don't get it.

When this owner was able to extort a new stadium without speading one dime of his own money, when that owner then got a lease agreement that John Heylar said in the book Lords Of The Realm deserved 'immediate induction into the sweetheart lease Hall of Fame,' and finally when that owner then got another sucker to fix up the abortion of a stadium that HE designed and pushed for again without spending one dime of his millions, then yes he OWES the city and taxpayers and fans a little more then BS and 'fiscal responsibility' every friggin' season.

No.2: The Cubs took over the town and became a national by word for two reasons...both connected to Uncle Jerry directly. Harry Caray and SportsVision.

Nuff said?

Lip
Damn Lip. I hate your over the top negativity but some of your posts are hard to argue against. Also, for No.2, throw in the "we'll never catch Cleveland" white flag trade and the '94 strike.

slavko
12-07-2004, 10:19 PM
Somewhere before this thread got hijacked, I had the thought that the Red Sox were desperate to trade Manny Ramirez over last winter. I wonder how he reacted? Oh, that's right, he helped them win a World Series.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 09:04 AM
Anewman:

I would lose everything in a heartbeat for a World Series title. Is that clear enough for you...maybe YOU just don't get it.

When this owner was able to extort a new stadium without speading one dime of his own money, when that owner then got a lease agreement that John Heylar said in the book Lords Of The Realm deserved 'immediate induction into the sweetheart lease Hall of Fame,' and finally when that owner then got another sucker to fix up the abortion of a stadium that HE designed and pushed for again without spending one dime of his millions, then yes he OWES the city and taxpayers and fans a little more then BS and 'fiscal responsibility' every friggin' season.

No.2: The Cubs took over the town and became a national by word for two reasons...both connected to Uncle Jerry directly. Harry Caray and SportsVision.

Nuff said?

LipLip, The move to SportsVision and firing Harry Caray happened in the 70's, and while I won't dispute that it had an effect, the Sox frequently outdrew the Cubs long after that, so I don't think you can say these are solely responsible. And to get back to the original point, the Cubs dominance has NOTHING to do with on-field success, or lack thereof, and to believe that if the Sox just could put together winning teams it could be reversed is unfounded.

PaulDrake
12-08-2004, 09:07 AM
Lip, The move to SportsVision and firing Harry Caray happened in the 70's, and while I won't dispute that it had an effect, the Sox frequently outdrew the Cubs long after that, so I don't think you can say these are solely responsible. And to get back to the original point, the Cubs dominance has NOTHING to do with on-field success, or lack thereof, and to believe that if the Sox just could put together winning teams it could be reversed is unfounded. I think your time frame is just a tad off there.

Kilroy
12-08-2004, 09:27 AM
The Cubs took over the town and became a national by word for two reasons...both connected to Uncle Jerry directly. Harry Caray and SportsVision.

Nuff said?

Lip
Blah blah blah blah blah.

How convenient for a consistent Jerry basher like you to attribute the Cubs taking over the town to these two things. Too bad its a crock of ****. If those were the only two things that happened and the result was the same, I'd agree. But you are overlooking one really huge factor in this equation: The revitalization of the Wrigleyville neighborhood with tons of bars and nightspots. That started happening at the end of the 70's/beginning of the 80's. It was well underway when JR switched from Channel 44 to SportsVision which led to Caray quitting because he disagreed with the move.

You act like the fact that Wrigleyville turning into a drunken carnival had nothing to do with the area and Cub games becoming a popular thing to do for scads of people, most of who couldn't give a rat's ass about baseball.

PaulDrake
12-08-2004, 09:54 AM
Blah blah blah blah blah.

How convenient for a consistent Jerry basher like you to attribute the Cubs taking over the town to these two things. Too bad its a crock of ****. If those were the only two things that happened and the result was the same, I'd agree. But you are overlooking one really huge factor in this equation: The revitalization of the Wrigleyville neighborhood with tons of bars and nightspots. That started happening at the end of the 70's/beginning of the 80's. It was well underway when JR switched from Channel 44 to SportsVision which led to Caray quitting because he disagreed with the move.

You act like the fact that Wrigleyville turning into a drunken carnival had nothing to do with the area and Cub games becoming a popular thing to do for scads of people, most of who couldn't give a rat's ass about baseball. The Wrigleyville yuppifcation was a big factor. So was Harry leaving and essentially ceding free TV to the cute adorable ones. A whole generation of kiddees came home from school and had Harry and the Cubs to entertain them. This ownership group has made one blunder after another and getting mad at Lip isn't going to change that.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2004, 11:33 AM
Paul:

You have to understand the **** look at the world through rose colored glasses!

No.2:

Harry and the Sox parted ways after the 1981 season, SportsVision started in May 1982. By 1986 the Cubs were beginning to dominate the landscape. Connection? Of course not!

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Lip

Flight #24
12-08-2004, 11:35 AM
No.2:

Harry and the Sox parted ways after the 1981 season, SportsVision started in May 1982. By 1986 the Cubs were beginning to dominate the landscape. Connection? Of course not!

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Lip
Just because 2 things happen concurrently doesn't indicate complete causation. The 2 incidents you cite obviously had an effect. But a much greater impact was had from the change in the surrounding neighborhood combined with the Trib marketing. Neither of those 2 were ever under Jerry's control. So at worst, you can say that he worsened things, but not that he caused it (or IMO that he could have reversed it by making other decisions).

Wealz
12-08-2004, 11:47 AM
Harry's impact on both the Sox and Cubs has been overstated for years.

JKryl
12-08-2004, 12:08 PM
They will regret this for many years. Maggs will come back and maggs will be as good if not better. You dont just give up on a guy because he is hurt. I love the white sox, but this team is run by ****ing morons. JR better sell or die soon. This is getting old.
This is just speculation. The fact remains that he was injured, he refused to see Sox doctors, he left the country for surgery, and hasn't been available for an exam since. Something stinks here. I have a feeling that Mags is going the way of Bo Jackson. I hope not, I always liked the guy until he hired Boras, but something just isn't right.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 12:52 PM
Paul:

You have to understand the **** look at the world through rose colored glasses!

No.2:

Harry and the Sox parted ways after the 1981 season, SportsVision started in May 1982. By 1986 the Cubs were beginning to dominate the landscape. Connection? Of course not!

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

LipAnd as late as the early 90's the Sox were still outdrawing the Cubs. It's really in during mid- to late-90's that the Cubs began to dominate. During this time the Sox finished 1st twice, while the Cubs couldn't manage back-to-back winning seasons. To return to the original point AGAIN, if winning is all that matters in drawing attendance, how come the Cubs dominance came during a period when the Sox were a much better team on the field?

doublem23
12-08-2004, 12:54 PM
And as late as the early 90's the Sox were still outdrawing the Cubs. It's really in during mid- to late-90's that the Cubs began to dominate. During this time the Sox finished 1st twice, while the Cubs couldn't manage back-to-back winning seasons. To return to the original point AGAIN, if winning is all that matters in drawing attendance, how come the Cubs dominance came during a period when the Sox were a much better team on the field?
Agreed. I think the strike and JR's percieved role in it had a lot more to do with the current state of Chicago baseball than Harry Caray becoming the Cubs' company man.

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 01:00 PM
Agreed. I think the strike and JR's percieved role in it had a lot more to do with the current state of Chicago baseball than Harry Caray becoming the Cubs' company man.Attendance went down after the strike for all clubs. I don't recall seeing any numbers that would indicate that the Sox were affected worse than anyone else. To me, it has more to do with the success of the Tribune/Cubs marketing than anything else. If they can convince 3 million people to come out to see "Lovable Losers", all I can do is tip my hat to them.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2004, 03:48 PM
No.2 says: "And as late as the early 90's the Sox were still outdrawing the Cubs

In 93 the Cubs outdrew the Sox. Ron Schueler couldn't believe it and said say in a story in The Sporting news (which I have...)

And check out the attendence figures for the Sox from 94 (average) to 95, then compare them to the rest of baseball. The Sox had one of the most dramatic drop offs in the game. That wasn't a fluke it's because Sox fans stayed away in droves due to the labor impasse prompted by Uncle Jerry.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
12-08-2004, 03:53 PM
No.2 says: "And as late as the early 90's the Sox were still outdrawing the Cubs

In 93 the Cubs outdrew the Sox. Ron Schueler couldn't believe it and said say in a story in The Sporting news (which I have...)

And check out the attendence figures for the Sox from 94 (average) to 95, then compare them to the rest of baseball. The Sox had one of the most dramatic drop offs in the game. That wasn't a fluke it's because Sox fans stayed away in droves due to the labor impasse prompted by Uncle Jerry.

LipWhy did you start with 1993? What were the figures for 1990-92?

mweflen
12-08-2004, 04:00 PM
:hijacked:

Ol No. 2, didn't you know... people stay away from the Cell because the ownership is cheap and stupid.

Which reminds me of the original topic of the thread... Goodbye magglio, I hope you and your greedy nectrotic bones rot!

BarbG
12-08-2004, 04:17 PM
Interview after interview? Magglio does not seek out the press.

He called Mariotti. Mariotti didn't call him.

The press asked him about it and he responded. He never said the Sox were screwing him over.

He didn't respond but initiated the calls. And yes, he did say that.

Magglio turned down the Sox offer, got hurt, and its going to cost him. Thats the breaks. BTW, players seem to be getting a lot more money this offseason than last. If Magglio remained healthy and played well, he would have gotten the money he ultimately was looking for.

I agree with that.

As a person who has had four knee surgeries, two of them major, and had to go to my then $6-an-hour job on crutches three days later and physical therapy on my own time/my own dime, my sympathy for this man is exhausted. Perspecitves differ. Magglio didn't play the lion's share of 2004, they called up possibly the worst right fielder in the history of the game, and they still came fairly close.

tstrike2000
12-10-2004, 09:51 AM
Everyone's hit the nail on the head here from all the posts. It's a foregone conclusion when a team has budget constraints, paying someone in the 12-15 million range per year when health is still a question mark, is too risky. Unfortunately, coupled with a supposed deferred 5/70 mil deal instead of non-deferred and the Maggs for Nomar trade rumors, the Sox first shot themselves in the foot. The mysterious knee surgery and recovery along with switching agents is just a smoke screen game. Unfortunate too, as Maggs will sign somewhere else and could very likely regain his old form back.

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 10:08 AM
And as late as the early 90's the Sox were still outdrawing the Cubs. It's really in during mid- to late-90's that the Cubs began to dominate. During this time the Sox finished 1st twice, while the Cubs couldn't manage back-to-back winning seasons. To return to the original point AGAIN, if winning is all that matters in drawing attendance, how come the Cubs dominance came during a period when the Sox were a much better team on the field?
There may be other factors at play here too. The Sox fled free TV in the early 80's the kids who grew up watching the flubbies play on free TV over the next decade before cable really took off (and remember - Chicago came very late to the cable TV market as a whole) were old enough to start attending games by themselves on their own money right about the time ShamME* started slamming homers at a record pace and the flubbies suddenly made 3 serious runs at the pennant in a short period of time.

It may be a combination of factors at work. Certainly JR hardline and openly public stance on the labor impasse in 94 while his WS favorite team sat idle didn't HELP Sox attendance. Certainly the WFT (whether overblown by the media or not) didn't HELP Sox attencance. Certainly JR's constant hoof in mouth disease regarding the fans and monetary issue hasn't HELPED Sox attendance. Certainly the threat to move the Sox to Florida, the removal from Free TV and the ousting of Harry Carry haven't HELPED either.

Maybe none of them have hurt the Sox at all, but why anyone with an ounce of marketing skills would think so is beyond me...:dunno:

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:20 AM
There may be other factors at play here too. The Sox fled free TV in the early 80's the kids who grew up watching the flubbies play on free TV over the next decade before cable really took off (and remember - Chicago came very late to the cable TV market as a whole) were old enough to start attending games by themselves on their own money right about the time ShamME* started slamming homers at a record pace and the flubbies suddenly made 3 serious runs at the pennant in a short period of time.

It may be a combination of factors at work. Certainly JR hardline and openly public stance on the labor impasse in 94 while his WS favorite team sat idle didn't HELP Sox attendance. Certainly the WFT (whether overblown by the media or not) didn't HELP Sox attencance. Certainly JR's constant hoof in mouth disease regarding the fans and monetary issue hasn't HELPED Sox attendance. Certainly the threat to move the Sox to Florida, the removal from Free TV and the ousting of Harry Carry haven't HELPED either.

Maybe none of them have hurt the Sox at all, but why anyone with an ounce of marketing skills would think so is beyond me...:dunno:I agree there are LOTS of reasons for the Cubs' dominance. The point was that the Cubs didn't build their dominance by putting a winning team on the field. They became the dominant team at the same time they completely SUCKED. To assert that the Sox could become the dominant team just by putting a better product on the field ignores ALL the reasons why the current situation is what it is. In the two seasons the Sox won their division, the Cubs STILL outdrew them.

To regain dominance will be a long, slow process. Winning is a part of it, but a lot better marketing is an essential ingredient. Over the last 15-20 years the Cubs/Tribune have eaten the Sox' lunch in the marketing department. Hopefully, Boyer will do a better job than Gallas.

voodoochile
12-10-2004, 10:34 AM
I agree there are LOTS of reasons for the Cubs' dominance. The point was that the Cubs didn't build their dominance by putting a winning team on the field. They became the dominant team at the same time they completely SUCKED. To assert that the Sox could become the dominant team just by putting a better product on the field ignores ALL the reasons why the current situation is what it is. In the two seasons the Sox won their division, the Cubs STILL outdrew them.

To regain dominance will be a long, slow process. Winning is a part of it, but a lot better marketing is an essential ingredient. Over the last 15-20 years the Cubs/Tribune have eaten the Sox' lunch in the marketing department. Hopefully, Boyer will do a better job than Gallas.
Okay, now let's suppose for a moment that my post was valid. Given all those factors don't you think it will be very tough for JR to regain the fan's trust?

Aren't a good chunk of those factors (read: all of them) ineveitably JR's fault?

So it's not just the strike. So it's not just the WFT. So it's not just the threat to leave. So it's not just the negative comments about fans. So it's not the constant cheaping out on the contracts. So it's not just the PPV TV and the loss of Harry Carry. So it's not any ONE of those factors OR the fact that the Trib owns the flubbies.

Maybe they all have had some impact and maybe that's why the Sox are second class citizens in this town. Maybe one of the ways to regain that trust and rebuild the fan base is to win and win some more - and I don't mean just finish with a winning record - make the playoffs several years in a row regardless of what it costs. Now would certainly be a great time to do that because they might start recapturing fans who have become disenchanted with the whole flubbie party atmosphere and who can no longer afford tickets to the team they have been following.

It's put up or shut up time for our management team, IMO.

Build a pennant contender and get the team to the playoffs 3-5 years in a row, or...

:selljerry

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 10:43 AM
Okay, now let's suppose for a moment that my post was valid. Given all those factors don't you think it will be very tough for JR to regain the fan's trust?

Aren't a good chunk of those factors (read: all of them) ineveitably JR's fault?

So it's not just the strike. So it's not just the WFT. So it's not just the threat to leave. So it's not just the negative comments about fans. So it's not the constant cheaping out on the contracts. So it's not just the PPV TV and the loss of Harry Carry. So it's not any ONE of those factors OR the fact that the Trib owns the flubbies.

Maybe they all have had some impact and maybe that's why the Sox are second class citizens in this town. Maybe one of the ways to regain that trust and rebuild the fan base is to win and win some more - and I don't mean just finish with a winning record - make the playoffs several years in a row regardless of what it costs. Now would certainly be a great time to do that because they might start recapturing fans who have become disenchanted with the whole flubbie party atmosphere and who can no longer afford tickets to the team they have been following.

It's put up or shut up time for our management team, IMO.

Build a pennant contender and get the team to the playoffs 3-5 years in a row, or...

Absolutely. Reinsdorf certainly hasn't helped the situation. But I don't think you can lay it ALL at Reinsdorf's feet, either. I think you have to give a lot of credit to the Cubs/Tribune marketing department for being able to sell the "Lovable Losers", while the Sox marketing department seemed like a deer in the headlights. Winning will help. But I don't think winning will do it by itself. The fact that the Cubs outdrew the Sox in 1994 and 2000 tells you it will take more than that. Consecutive playoff appearances are certainly better than once in a while. I just don't agree with the quick fix of dumping a lot of money on payroll. It's too uncertain. There were a lot of $90M payroll teams playing golf last October. OTOH, if they do, indeed, go to $75M this year, that will be a $20M increase in two years. IMO, continuing that trend is the way to go.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2004, 01:33 PM
No.2:

Now THAT post I agree with.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
12-10-2004, 04:32 PM
No.2:

Now THAT post I agree with.

LipSee, Lip? I knew I could reason with you.:tongue:

barryball
12-11-2004, 09:49 AM
Mike Downey sums it up quite nicely in his colum in the trib today. I only would add that he was offered a "Vlad" like contract $12-14$MM per yer for 5 years regardless of whether 20% was deferred and he turned it down. He figured he was worth more and than gets injured, he got greedy gambled and lost. He was always paid well by the Sox. I always loved Maggs but if he can't play again I will not shed a tear!

Listen up Sox fans, don't buy Maggs' sob story
By Mike Downey

December 11, 2004

(VC EDIT: Please post links and select quites not entire stories. It is a violation of copyright laws to republish entire articles.)

Lip Man 1
12-11-2004, 12:58 PM
Yet when Downey says things that Sox fans don't like suddenly he's a 'lazy dumbass...'

I guess I don't understand how a media person can be 'good' or 'bad' depending of whether or not you argee with what they have to say. Either they are a good journalist, a good broadcaster or they aren't.

Can't have it both ways friends.

Lip

FarWestChicago
12-11-2004, 01:08 PM
Yet when Downey says things that Sox fans don't like suddenly he's a 'lazy dumbass...'

I guess I don't understand how a media person can be 'good' or 'bad' depending of whether or not you argee with what they have to say. Either they are a good journalist, a good broadcaster or they aren't.

Can't have it both ways friends.

LipThis is priceless. It's just tearing you apart that some of the normally worthless media actually gets it about this issue. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/weep.gif