PDA

View Full Version : How do we know Frank never juiced?


A. Cavatica
12-06-2004, 03:36 PM
Some on this board have called for the 2000 MVP to be retroactively awarded to Frank instead of Giambi, which is an interesting argument -- if it can in fact be proven that Frank didn't use.

I'm not accusing him and I've never seen him implicated, but how do we know that Frank's clean?

Iguana775
12-06-2004, 03:38 PM
cause he has always been a big guy. he didnt just ballon up like Bonds and Sosa.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-06-2004, 03:42 PM
We don't need to prove Frank didn't take steroids.
Jason Giambi confessed to using steroids.

Frank was runner-up to Giambi.
Giambi's MVP award is expunged.
Frank is the new winner.

End of story.

munchman33
12-06-2004, 03:42 PM
And lets face it. Guys on steroids tend not to be as fat as Frank either.

bennyw41
12-06-2004, 03:45 PM
We don't need to prove Frank didn't take steroids.
Jason Giambi confessed to using steroids.

Frank was runner-up to Giambi.
Giambi's MVP award is expunged.
Frank is the new winner.

End of story.

Thank you for the logical response.

The other one by Iguana is just horribly illogical.

Flight #24
12-06-2004, 03:45 PM
Reason #1: No positive tests or public admissions

Reason #2: No physical indications

Reason #3: No substantial leap in performance, just a relatively steady high level of production

Reason #4: His quite public anti-steroid stance and (reported) leadership of the movement to skip the test in ST and force expanded testing for everyone

Reason #5: He's Frank friggin Thomas

Tekijawa
12-06-2004, 03:45 PM
Users also tend to be a little more aggressive than to try and side step a catcher at home while being 275 pounds every freaking time he gets the chance... I'd pay about a million and a half dollars to see him once take a catcher out at home!

StillMissOzzie
12-06-2004, 03:53 PM
Thank you for the logical response.

The other one by Iguana is just horribly illogical.
Not really. Have you seen any of the early-in-their-career pictures of Bonds and Sosa compared to their 1998-2002 state? Or Giambi and Sosa in 2000 vs. Giambi and Sosa in 2004, on the way down again?

SMO
:gulp:
100% barley juice!

Baby Fisk
12-06-2004, 04:13 PM
I'd pay about a million and a half dollars to see him once take a catcher out at home!
I'd provide matching funds if it would help make that happen. :cool:

hose
12-06-2004, 04:34 PM
We don't need to prove Frank didn't take steroids.
Jason Giambi confessed to using steroids.

Frank was runner-up to Giambi.
Giambi's MVP award is expunged.
Frank is the new winner.

End of story.

PHG with a SLAM DUNK....KABOOM

bc2k
12-06-2004, 04:42 PM
Reason #1: No positive tests or public admissions

Reason #2: No physical indications

Reason #3: No substantial leap in performance, just a relatively steady high level of production

Reason #4: His quite public anti-steroid stance and (reported) leadership of the movement to skip the test in ST and force expanded testing for everyone

Reason #5: He's Frank friggin Thomas To add to Reason #3: Frank Thomas's production has been consistent with his age. His best seasons were during his prime years, while his slight decline has come as he aged.

ondafarm
12-06-2004, 04:47 PM
Frank Thomas just doesn't look like a juicer, I've heard from several players (including this recent posting by Jack McDowell http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jm-steroids1203&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) that juicers are quite evident.

Frank has been big for as long as anyone can recall and his power has been quite consistent. Sure, he should be tested but don't hold your breath, he's clean.

bennyw41
12-06-2004, 04:49 PM
Not really. Have you seen any of the early-in-their-career pictures of Bonds and Sosa compared to their 1998-2002 state? Or Giambi and Sosa in 2000 vs. Giambi and Sosa in 2004, on the way down again?

SMO
:gulp:
100% barley juice!
No no no, you're completely missing my point. I 100 percent agree with Frank not being juiced, but to say that the only reason we know he isn't juiced is because of two people being juiced? It just doesn't add up. You can't say because frank is big for more than 2 years that he is clean. You would have to use other explanations, which there are many. 1. Being an avid weight lifter 2. Denouncing steroids for many more years than this scandel. 3. Playing football, so on and so on. I just didn't like the way Iguana formulated his argument.

mweflen
12-06-2004, 04:54 PM
Yes, there are some big arguments in favor of Frank's clean status.


-No big gains or losses in size or performance.

-No aggressiveness (anyone recall a little Roger Clemes-Mike Piazza fracas? 50 bucks says Clemens was juicing).

-Consistent anti-steroid stance/whining (and face it, Frank isn't smart enough in a Public Relations sense to 'pretend' to be upset by steroids in an attempt to hid his own usage. He's about the most PR-inept person in the world behind Uncle Jerry.)

Frank is easily the guy I would least suspect on the Sox. If I had to pick one guy on the Sox who I suspected, it would be Manos or Maggs.

fquaye149
12-06-2004, 05:34 PM
every argument for frank's non-use has already been made and made well and eloquently by previous posters.

To respond to the question, however, we DON'T know that Frank never juiced. There's no way we can no. Period. Only Frank knows for sure that he never juiced. However you can say that about anyone in baseball...Willie Harris, Jeff Weaver, Cecil Fielder...so what's the point of asking about Frank?

THERE IS JUST NO EVIDENCE THAT FRANK HAS USED STEROIDS. Not even circumstantial. The closest you can get is that he's been injured a couple of times. But that is flimsy at best.

You might as well ask:
How do we know Frank never used Speed or Crack or killed a man?

we don't, but why would we think he did?

Foulke29
12-06-2004, 05:54 PM
Users also tend to be a little more aggressive than to try and side step a catcher at home while being 275 pounds every freaking time he gets the chance... I'd pay about a million and a half dollars to see him once take a catcher out at home!
Hard to believe the guy played football for Auburn, huh?

jabrch
12-06-2004, 06:23 PM
Like others said - we don't KNOW anything for sure - but in the case of Frank, there are no signs - none - as there are with Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, etc. If someone came out with proof of it, I'd be shocked. Not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE - just that there is no reason out there that anyone has presented to convince anyone that it is true.

Also, remember Frank during last off season was one of the guys begging everyone to take the test. He was part of the group of Sox asking the entire team to take one - and in public too. I just don't think it is remotely possible, although it is clearly not IMPOSSIBLE since we have no way to prove that.

RKMeibalane
12-06-2004, 06:46 PM
Frank Thomas is probably one of the last people who would be using steroids. As someone else pointed out, he lacks the P.R. savy needed to pull off the "I've never used steroids" act that guys like Bonds and Sosa have been throwing out there.

Futhermore, Frank has never needed to use steroids to accomplish anything. Everything he has needed to become the player that he is was either given to him by God (superior strength, excellent batting eye, etc.), or it was attained through hard work. Even now, Frank is still putting up numbers that are the envy of 95% of all baseball players. That's how good he is.

I suppose one could make the argument that Bonds has never needed to use steroids, either, and to be perfectly honest, I think that argument makes perfect sense. However, let's consider what we know about Bonds. The man is a complete and utter *******, and he always has been. Nothing about his personality or the way he handles himself gives me the impression that he has any respect for the game of baseball. If he did, I don't think he would behave the way he has in the past, particularly around his teammates or the media. Frank hasn't the had the greatest track record with the media, either, but his problems stem from the fact that he's just not comfortable around them, so he doesn't know how to handle himself. Bonds just enjoys being an ass.

Bonds also strikes me as the type of person who can't stand seeing anyone else succeed, for any reason. If he were a politician, Bonds seems like the type of person who would pull off a stunt similar to what Nixon did with Watergate. Bonds is willing to do anything to stay on top, mainly because his ego is too large for him to allow someone else to sit atop baseball's throne. Case and point: the 1998 season. Mark McGwire and the Evil One dominated the sport that year. Bonds was forced to take a backseat to them, and it's not the least bit surprising to learn that many now suspect that he started using steroids around that time.

Contrast Bonds' behavior with Frank. Although Frank does occasionally come off as being somewhat arrogant, it's clear that he recognizes that he is getting older, and that he must find other ways to remain on top of his game, because his athletic ability is declining. Thus, Frank spends extra time in the batting cage. He spends extra time looking at film, both of himself, and of opposing pitchers, much like Tony Gwynn did during his career. I've never heard any stories of Bonds doing these things. I wonder why.

In closing, we don't know (yet) if Frank never used steroids, but the odds of him having done so are slim. Nothing about his behavior, especially when one compares him to Bonds, suggests that he would sink to that level.

A. Cavatica
12-06-2004, 09:11 PM
I agree with everything that was said, and I can't provide any evidence that Frank juiced either.

I still think MLB is not about to pull Giambi's MVP award and hand it to someone else because of the risk that steroid revelations would come out about the new designee.

Deadguy
12-07-2004, 12:05 AM
Hard to believe the guy played football for Auburn, huh?
I don't think Frank wanted anything to do with football. Scouts simply looked at him as a football player playing baseball, which is why he went undrafted for all 62 rounds of the 1986 amateur draft. Frank wanted nothing to do with football, at least on the collegiate level.

The football scholarship offered to him by Auburn was just a way to get his foot in the door, so he could walk on for the baseball team. That is why he never played after his Freshman year.

WSox8404
12-07-2004, 12:12 AM
His head never swelled up.

OurBitchinMinny
12-07-2004, 01:43 AM
Some on this board have called for the 2000 MVP to be retroactively awarded to Frank instead of Giambi, which is an interesting argument -- if it can in fact be proven that Frank didn't use.

I'm not accusing him and I've never seen him implicated, but how do we know that Frank's clean?

Thomas' numbers never skyrocketed like the other juicers, plus he was always big (but so was mcgwire). If anything his numbers went down around the time sosas and bonds went up. But you are right we dont know for sure about anyone.

Frater Perdurabo
12-07-2004, 08:32 AM
Thomas' numbers never skyrocketed like the other juicers, plus he was always big (but so was mcgwire). If anything his numbers went down around the time sosas and bonds went up. But you are right we dont know for sure about anyone.

McGwire was never as big as Thomas until later in his career. I still have a poster of McGwire from the late 80s. He's tall as a California Redwood and muscular, but strikingly thin.

Compare McGwire from 1987 (his 47 HR rookie season) to 1998. Big difference. You can see the difference in his body and in his face.

Then, compare Thomas from 90 to today. He's virtually the same (except Frank is a bit fatter around the middle now and his hair is cut differently).

McGwire admitted to using andro. While he came up lean, he did have the body to add muscle. He always was a prolific power hitter, even when he wasn't taking andro. IIRC, he had 35 homers at the All Star break in 87; fueling speculation that he would break Maris' record that year, before he cooled off later in the season.

But Sosa and Bonds naturally are smaller people: shorter but lean and exceptionally fast. Look at their early career photos and stats. Both of them added prodigious power later in their careers.

Bottom line: Frank is naturally huge and maintains his muscle through serious weight training, diet and exercise. (If he didn't he'd probably be a 400-pound tub of goo.)

McGwire cheated but but his cheating didn't help him. If anything, it cut his career short due to injury.

Bonds and Sosa cheated, and their cheating helped them tremendously.

jabrch
12-07-2004, 10:09 AM
Thomas' numbers never skyrocketed like the other juicers, plus he was always big (but so was mcgwire). If anything his numbers went down around the time sosas and bonds went up. But you are right we dont know for sure about anyone.


Look at pics of McGwire from his early days. He was TINY - almost Richie Sexson like.... Look at this 1985 Topps Mark McGwire baseball card. Look how slim he looks...

http://www.hotlistrookies.com/images/mcgwire401psa8.jpg

That was his college days - we were all smaller then

Look at him in 1987

http://www.rbicards.com/images/cards/1734f.jpg

No acne - that came with age...and smaller arms and shoulders.

When did McGwire beef up? Coincidentally it mostly started after 1991. Why is that such a coincidence? Because in 1991 he hit .201 with 22 HRs after seasons of .235 and .231. He missed most of 1993 and 1994 with injuries, but came back in 1995 HUGE and SLUGGING. 39HR, 52HR, 58 HR, 70, 65, 32, 29 with averages closer to .300 for the rest of his career. But...nagging injuries that cut many of those seasons short.

McGwire cheated. He admitted to using performance enhancing drugs. Yes, others did use Andro too, but I firmly believe that Jose Canseco's teammate used much more than just Andro. He has all the signs of a roidmonster.

Frank Thomas, on the other hand, has NONE of those signs, except that he was an excellent hitter.

ewokpelts
12-07-2004, 11:24 AM
We don't need to prove Frank didn't take steroids.
Jason Giambi confessed to using steroids.

Frank was runner-up to Giambi.
Giambi's MVP award is expunged.
Frank is the new winner.

End of story.giambi admits to drug use in 2001.....AFTER he was awarded the 2000 mvp....
Gene

ewokpelts
12-07-2004, 11:36 AM
Look at pics of McGwire from his early days. He was TINY - almost Richie Sexson like.... Look at this 1985 Topps Mark McGwire baseball card. Look how slim he looks...

http://www.hotlistrookies.com/images/mcgwire401psa8.jpg

That was his college days - we were all smaller then

Look at him in 1987

http://www.rbicards.com/images/cards/1734f.jpg

No acne - that came with age...and smaller arms and shoulders.

When did McGwire beef up? Coincidentally it mostly started after 1991. Why is that such a coincidence? Because in 1991 he hit .201 with 22 HRs after seasons of .235 and .231. He missed most of 1993 and 1994 with injuries, but came back in 1995 HUGE and SLUGGING. 39HR, 52HR, 58 HR, 70, 65, 32, 29 with averages closer to .300 for the rest of his career. But...nagging injuries that cut many of those seasons short.

McGwire cheated. He admitted to using performance enhancing drugs. Yes, others did use Andro too, but I firmly believe that Jose Canseco's teammate used much more than just Andro. He has all the signs of a roidmonster.

Frank Thomas, on the other hand, has NONE of those signs, except that he was an excellent hitter.andro was an over-the counter drug....ok'ed by the fda....and NOT BANNED by mlb in 1998. I dont consider it cheating.....
Gene

DrCrawdad
12-07-2004, 11:53 AM
Some on this board have called for the 2000 MVP to be retroactively awarded to Frank instead of Giambi, which is an interesting argument -- if it can in fact be proven that Frank didn't use.

I'm not accusing him and I've never seen him implicated, but how do we know that Frank's clean?

I suggest common sense and as the quote below mentions, trust your eyes.

The ... steroid scandal is mostly about the prevalent vice of denial...As a classic baseball book like "A Day in the Bleachers" by Arnold Hano -- or anything by Roger Angell -- reminds us, the first tool for understanding baseball is the eyes. Trust your eyes, as Hano did at the Polo Grounds, and you can see that steroids were a huge part of baseball in the storied summer of 1998, when a pumped-up Sammy Sosa battled pumped-up Mark McGwire for Roger Maris' single-season home-run record. However, fear or cravenness or ignorance held far too many people back from acknowledging the obvious. - Steve Kettmann, a former San Francisco Chronicle sportswriter.

jabrch
12-07-2004, 12:12 PM
andro was an over-the counter drug....ok'ed by the fda....and NOT BANNED by mlb in 1998. I dont consider it cheating.....
Gene
A) It is still a performance enhancing drug and against the spirit of fair competition

B) You think that's all he did? That's all that reporters saw on his lockerroom shelf. Exaplain the acne. Explain the growth of his arms and his shoulders.

No - I don't buy it...Sorry.

Iguana775
12-07-2004, 01:45 PM
Thank you for the logical response.

The other one by Iguana is just horribly illogical.
LMAO.

i'll explain this slowly.

you grow up a big guy. are a big guy all the way through high school. are a big guy in college and one in the pros. there is no sudden jump in weight. that's what roids do to you. they make you big. if you are naturally big, you dont need to take them. if he did take roids, he would look like a cartoon. get it yet or do i need to draw pictures?

ode to veeck
12-07-2004, 03:00 PM
No acne - that came with age...and smaller arms and shoulders
McGwire had acne by '89 if not earlier as all the Giants fans here were calling him pizza face during the '89 Bay Bridge Series while Mac and the As were sweeping them

I dunno about Mac, but a contemporary of his, Jose Canseco was probably juiced from the time he hit the biggies with Mac in 85 or 86

Nick@Nite
12-07-2004, 03:10 PM
andro was an over-the counter drug....ok'ed by the fda....and NOT BANNED by mlb in 1998. I dont consider it cheating.....
Gene
Drug users always have an alibi.

jshanahanjr
12-07-2004, 03:26 PM
I love Mark McGwire and hope he didn't juice even though it seems like he did. I guess we will know for sure when these guys drop dead in their 50's.

DumpJerry
12-07-2004, 04:19 PM
For all the reasons stated above, I seriously doubt Hurt use 'roids. I never even considered it a possibility. Someone mentioned Hurt's injuries. The injuries Hurt has had (stress fractures) are not evidence of 'roid use. The injuries which point to 'roid use are ligament injuries (like blowing back ligaments when sneezing). This is because while the 'roids build up muscle, the ligaments, which support the muscles' actions, are much slower to develop to keep up. As a result, you have ligaments supporting muscles which are too large for the ligament and the ligament blows. When you build up muscles naturally, like with weight training, your ligaments are able to build up at the same pace as the muscles and there is lower risk of injury.

So, any time there is an injury to a muscle-bound player, be suspicious. Also, when a player develops certain rare illnesses, like Giambi's last year, that is also a sign.

Big Frank has not, to my recollection, had any suspicious injuries.