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oheeoh...magglio
12-03-2004, 12:43 AM
c/o ESPNEWS according to SF Chornicle, he admitted it in grand jury testimony.

WOW!!!

CubKilla
12-03-2004, 12:48 AM
I'm shocked :rolleyes:

santo=dorf
12-03-2004, 12:52 AM
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/images/08/10/top.barry.bonds.1.ap.jpg

"I thought it they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis."

http://i.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/01/13/scorecard0119/p1_rose.jpg

"I didn't bet on baseball."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/cy/2/2c/Bill-Clinton.png

"It depends on what your definition of "is" is."

http://www.thisnation.com/media/loc.gov%20photos/rn.jpg

"I am not a crook."

:reinsy

"We're going to turn this into a first class organization."

Kuzman
12-03-2004, 01:05 AM
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/images/08/10/top.barry.bonds.1.ap.jpg

"I thought it they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis."

http://i.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/01/13/scorecard0119/p1_rose.jpg

"I didn't bet on baseball."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/cy/2/2c/Bill-Clinton.png

"It depends on what your definition of "is" is."

http://www.thisnation.com/media/loc.gov%20photos/rn.jpg

"I am not a crook."

:reinsy

"We're going to turn this into a first class organization."
BRILLIANT!!

Ya we all knew this was coming.. just when was the question.

Unregistered
12-03-2004, 01:06 AM
:o: <-- teal

HebrewHammer
12-03-2004, 01:14 AM
I have to admit, I'm surprised this is coming out. I never thought anyone would name names. The big question now is what is the used car salesman going to do?

FightingBillini
12-03-2004, 01:20 AM
According to ESPN, he testified that he didnt know they were steroids. He said his trainer told him they were things other than steroids. Here is the thing that struck me. He said that the things were handed to him in the clubhouse, in public with other players and media there. If anyone could back that up, such as teammates, that might help. This will come down to the testimony of Conte. The thing everyone needs to remember: Bonds was given immunity to testify as long as he told the truth. Supposedly, there is evidence that Bonds took steroids since around 1998. He said that he didnt know, and he took only the cream and the clear from 2001-2003. If it is proven that he did take steroids, the government will charge him with purjury.
The government has been wanting to knock down someone big with steroids for a while. They will do anything they can to nail Bonds. If he doesn't get charged, he really was clean. If he gets charged, then god help us all and god help baseball.

Unregistered
12-03-2004, 01:27 AM
The government has been wanting to knock down someone big with steroids for a while. They will do anything they can to nail Bonds. If he doesn't get charged, he really was clean. If he gets charged, then god help us all and god help baseball. Billini, Egypt called. It wants Denial back. <rimshot> :tongue:

FightingBillini
12-03-2004, 01:32 AM
Billini, Egypt called. It wants Denial back. <rimshot> :tongue:
What am I denying? I am just stated what Bonds testified. The government will go to all lengths to discover whether or not he lied under oath, as they should. If they don't nail him, then he has to be clean. If they find he lied, I dont think anything would be able to save baseball. It will be like the Black Sox scandal squared.

SluggersAway
12-03-2004, 01:36 AM
Read the Chronicle story; it is pretty darn 'clear,' or cream...

As for the flaxseed oil defense, the article states: "Tim Montgomery, a world-class sprinter, had earlier told the grand jury that Conte used flaxseed oil containers when sending "the clear" to athletes at overseas track meets."

And if this was a "U.S. gov vs. Barry Bonds" situation, why did they give him immunity?

But, don't just take my word for it, or a short snippet from ESPN, read the article based on his testimony, it is pretty damning.

San Francisco Chronicle on Barry Bonds Testimony to the Balco grand jury (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP)

FightingBillini
12-03-2004, 01:40 AM
This is taken directly from the Chronicle article





Bonds said that as far as he knew, Anderson gave him only legal products to treat the arthritis and fatigue that afflicted him, especially when playing a day game after a night game. The trainer brought the products into the Giants' clubhouse at Pac Bell Park "once a homestand," Bonds said, and that's where he used them.

"I never asked Greg" about what the products contained, Bonds testified. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.'

"It was in the ballpark ... in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn't hide it." The transcript shows that before he testified, Bonds was told he would not be prosecuted for any crimes he admitted as long as he told the truth to the grand jury. But if he lied under oath, the prosecutors warned, he could face prosecution for perjury. It is illegal to obtain steroids and human growth hormone without a doctor's prescription.

Kogs35
12-03-2004, 01:46 AM
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/images/08/10/top.barry.bonds.1.ap.jpg

" i didnt know this icecream really put the pounds on"

SluggersAway
12-03-2004, 01:48 AM
And as we know from the Lewinsky affair perjury is a whole other can of worms. I think the US gov has bigger fish to fry than to go after Barry Bonds for perjury.

The interesting question now is not whether he belongs in the hall of fame, but whether or not he even deserves to be on the field next year.

I'd like to see a complete purge of all abusers/users or a complete lifting of the prohibition on so-called performance enhancing substances. At least that way we'd know what we are getting. It is one way or the other, either we know they all do, or we know they all don't. The fans deserve as much. For the integrity of the game, the record books, the fans, and especially the young fans.

koch44
12-03-2004, 02:10 AM
Yay! They're all getting nailed, and now it comes down to one left.

:nandrolone


I can't wait to see what Selig has to say about this.

:tool

"We didn't know Flinstone Vitamins had those ingredients.":dtroll:

FarWestChicago
12-03-2004, 02:17 AM
I'd like to see a complete purge of all abusers/users or a complete lifting of the prohibition on so-called performance enhancing substances.You can't allow them. There is one guy on here that thinks long term 'roid use isn't harmful, but Flo-Jo, Lyle Alzado and a boatload of dead professional wrestlers might disagree if they could talk.

cbrownson13
12-03-2004, 02:49 AM
I'm still curious as to how much this actually affects play. This thing is a cream that helps arthritis and soreness? I just don't think it is possible for any kind of cream to affect a player's perfermance substantially. Now, injecting with testosterone (Giambi) I can definitely see, but with Sheffield and Bonds? How much is this cream padding their stats?

MUsoxfan
12-03-2004, 03:37 AM
Sheffield claims he stopped using this cream when he discovered it was a steroid. I believe him for no other reason than he'd have no reason to lie about it. I don't believe that Bonds has stopped roiding. I feel believes that nobody will ever take him down because of the monumental record he's on the verge of breaking. Every giant has had a case of major shrinkage lately except for Bonds. Sosa, Giambi and others have lost signifigant body mass and have spent time on the DL except for Bonds. That leads me to believe he's never stopped using. I also believe that for the fact that he'll go to court claiming that he never knew it was a steroid which is complete nonsense. I hope he goes to jail for purgury. (sp?)

Jjav829
12-03-2004, 03:48 AM
Wow, this has to be the most shocking news since, um, Giambi admitted to using 'roids. :rolleyes:

I wonder what the first sign was for Barry that the clear and the cream were steroids. Was it when his massive ego had the ability to fit into his expanded head (which had grown 2 sizes)?

SomebodyToldMe
12-03-2004, 03:54 AM
I would really love to see how this cream looks...I wonder if it looks like a balm?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/deputy_of_reno/otc9_jackie_childs.jpg
"Who told you to put the balm on?! Do you know what a balm does?!"

StepsInSC
12-03-2004, 06:35 AM
Was the substance he allegedly thought to be flaxseed oil in liquid or pill form?

munchman33
12-03-2004, 07:45 AM
Was the substance he allegedly thought to be flaxseed oil in liquid or pill form?
Liquid, if his testimony that the trainer was rubbing it down on him was true.

Flight #24
12-03-2004, 08:08 AM
I'm still curious as to how much this actually affects play. This thing is a cream that helps arthritis and soreness? I just don't think it is possible for any kind of cream to affect a player's perfermance substantially. Now, injecting with testosterone (Giambi) I can definitely see, but with Sheffield and Bonds? How much is this cream padding their stats?
IIRC, supposedly "the clear" is a clear liquid that you drip under your tongue, and "the cream" is....well....a cream that you rub on your body.

As for the ability of either to affect your body, there are many ways in which the body can absorb chemicals through skin contact for more than just topical (i.e. location-specific) impact. Think of things like the Nicotine or birth control patches you see marketed now. Those drugs enter the body at the location of application, but work throughout, not just at the location of the patch. I would imagine the "cream" would work similarly.

Maybe West has more detailed knowledge of this.

SOXSINCE'70
12-03-2004, 08:12 AM
c/o ESPNEWS according to SF Chornicle, he admitted it in grand jury testimony.

WOW!!!

:noevil: :noevil:

Who'd have thunk it??:redneck :D: :redneck :D:

StepsInSC
12-03-2004, 08:17 AM
Liquid, if his testimony that the trainer was rubbing it down on him was true.
I meant the one that was ingested. Surely one of them was....no one in their right mind rubs "flaxseed oil" on themselves and thinks its gonna do anything except make you smell like utter crap. Thats like rubbing bacon grease on yourself.

voodoochile
12-03-2004, 08:44 AM
What are the legal ramifications here?

I realize if he knew they were steroids, he is guilty of purjury, but am curious what the government will do if they can only prove he was too stupid to ask the right questions.

Is Ignorance a valid legal excuse here?

If so, you can bet that Giambi is kicking himself real hard...

StepsInSC
12-03-2004, 09:06 AM
What are the legal ramifications here?

I realize if he knew they were steroids, he is guilty of purjury, but am curious what the government will do if they can only prove he was too stupid to ask the right questions.

Is Ignorance a valid legal excuse here?

If so, you can bet that Giambi is kicking himself real hard...I think Giambi was told, as was Bonds, that he wouldn't be prosecuted for anything he if told the truth. Although they were also both told that their testimony was supposed to be kept secret. But no they wouldn't be prosecuted for their admission that they used 'roids - I'm under the impression it was part of the condition to their testifying, which is why Bonds didn't have a reason to lie. The fact that this was reported is...strange.

If his story his true, he would have a good defense to any possession charges given the fact that his trainer told him they were something else and he had reason to trust him. The controlled substance code requires intent or knowledge, and Bond's testimony sounds very...lawyerly...because he made it clear he had no knowledge.

voodoochile
12-03-2004, 09:18 AM
I think Giambi was told, as was Bonds, that he wouldn't be prosecuted for anything he if told the truth. Although they were also both told that their testimony was supposed to be kept secret. But no they wouldn't be prosecuted for their admission that they used 'roids - I'm under the impression it was part of the condition to their testifying, which is why Bonds didn't have a reason to lie. The fact that this was reported is...strange.

If his story his true, he would have a good defense to any possession charges given the fact that his trainer told him they were something else and he had reason to trust him. The controlled substance code requires intent or knowledge, and Bond's testimony sounds very...lawyerly...because he made it clear he had no knowledge.
That seems like a pretty thin defense. I mean by that standard, people like Rush could have said, "I didn't know it was a perscription pain killer. I asked for something to ease my pain and my friend gave me this stuff. I thought it was Ibuprofen."

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 09:25 AM
Game. Set. Match. The game is over.

The prosecution has flipped two of the biggest users/benefactors of steroids use and they are both active ballplayers. Together they cover both leagues, too. They are only immuned from prosecution for what they tell the prosecutors.

The more they talk, the less they can ever be prosecuted for.

Every major league ballplayer who ever played with Bonds, or ever played with a teammate of Bonds, or even socialized with him or someone who knew Bonds (like a trainer) in off-field situations, now has reason to fear what the prosecution might find out. Same goes for Giambi and all the rift raft surrounding him and his A.L. clubhouses.

The ballplayers who talk first are the ones who get the best deal from the prosecutors.

The juicing ballplayers are like rats on a sinking ship. Nobody wants to be the last one to jump off and they will say and do anything to save their own necks.

This is going to get U-G-L-Y and the dirty laundry won't stop with simple steroid use. I guarantee we're going to start reading all sorts of stories from credible sources about innummerable sordid dealings within the fraternity of professional ballplayers, including drugs, sex, and flat-out cheating. It ought to be good copy.
:cool:

Here's another guarantee. Sosa is spending this morning talking to his lawyer. Nobody has more alligators nipping at his ass than that clown.

:nandrolone
"The GOOD news is I got immunity. The BAD news is I'm never allowed to enter the United States again!"

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt

StepsInSC
12-03-2004, 09:28 AM
That seems like a pretty thin defense. I mean by that standard, people like Rush could have said, "I didn't know it was a perscription pain killer. I asked for something to ease my pain and my friend gave me this stuff. I thought it was Ibuprofen."Well I'm not sure if it would hold, but the relevant code reads: "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess a controlled substance..."

So the gov't would have to prove that Bonds knew what it was he was ingesting. I'm not sure how thin or strong the case would be, depends on the circumstances. Unless they can get Anderson or someone else to say that Bonds knew what he was taking, or show that Bonds had taken it in the past as well, then it would be hard to prove actual knowledge.

In the Rush example, if the 'friend' testified that Rush knew what it was, then yes the defense would be pretty weak.

WinningUgly!
12-03-2004, 09:39 AM
Every major league ballplayer who ever played with Bonds, or ever played with a teammate of Bonds, or even socialized with him or someone who knew Bonds (like a trainer) in off-field situations, now has reason to fear what the prosecution might find out.
http://ca.yimg.com/i/ca/cbc/20021108/i/2349621267.jpg
"They told me they were just flavored toothpicks!"

munchman33
12-03-2004, 09:51 AM
Is Ignorance a valid legal excuse here?

Um, if a medical professional gave me a drug and said it was something else, then I find out later it was an illegal substance, I would hope the authorities would look passed me and right to that person.

Justafan
12-03-2004, 09:51 AM
I know we all are having a little fun with this but I'm as sad as can be about this whole mess. Not because I didn't have a feeling this was going to come out but because it is a serious punch in the balls for the sport I love so very much.

voodoochile
12-03-2004, 09:54 AM
Um, if a medical professional gave me a drug and said it was something else, then I find out later it was an illegal substance, I would hope the authorities would look passed me and right to that person.
Which begs the question - is Bonds trainer a certified medical professional?

What is the definition of medical professional?

idseer
12-03-2004, 09:59 AM
i would simply like to say to all who have been insisting that bonds would never lie and didn't need steroids and there was no 'proof' and is the greatest ballplayer of all time, etc. ................................ :neener:

Justafan
12-03-2004, 10:05 AM
i would simply like to say to all who have been insisting that bonds would never lie and didn't need steroids and there was no 'proof' and is the greatest ballplayer of all time, etc. ................................ :neener:

What will ESPN do now that their favorite player has been exposed? Will they cut in for everyone of his AB'S still? Will they shove him down the country's throat still? What will baseball tonight do now? F/U, ESPN!!

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 10:05 AM
i would simply like to say to all who have been insisting that bonds would never lie and didn't need steroids and there was no 'proof' and is the greatest ballplayer of all time, etc. ................................ :neener:
Yep. Anyone defending the ballplayers or their actions is only setting themselves up to look like fools. It didn't take but one day for the Bonds defenders to have egg all over their face.

This story has only begun to unfold. The smart move is to get ahead of the curve and start looking for where it is headed next. I'm guessing the Bonds defenders had to learn their lesson the hard way.
:neener:

Flight #24
12-03-2004, 10:08 AM
Here's another guarantee. Sosa is spending this morning talking to his lawyer. Nobody has more alligators nipping at his ass than that clown.



I wonder if this also kills any hope the Chubs had of trading Sham-me? I mean if GMs are afraid of guys getting nabbed either from a suspension or PR perspective, they can'tbe falling all over themselves to take on a declining guy (coincidentally happening as steroid testing improved in MLB), who's a prime candidate if anyone bothers to look, can they?

Of course, if $7mil/yr for Kris freakin Benson is any indication, Minaya might do it anyway.

Jerko
12-03-2004, 10:08 AM
I just think it's "funny" that ESPN is hearing all these "leaks" right before their affiliate, ABC, is airing the Walters interview with Victor Conti. Are they telling us this stuff because as the public we deserve to know, or is it a ratings ploy? I wasn't going to watch 20/20 tonight until the Giambi crap came out, and now throw Bonds into the fray adn it's suddenly "can't miss" TV. The timing is too perfect.

Foulke29
12-03-2004, 10:09 AM
Here's the thing - if I was told that I was being given something for aches, pains and fatigue, and I had significant physical changes to my body and significant emotional changes to my personality, I'd start to suspect that something was not on the up and up.

I honestly don't know which is worse - Bonds knowingly using and being a big liar or Bonds unknowingly using and being dumber than Sammy Sosa!

Foulke29
12-03-2004, 10:12 AM
Here are a couple more thoughts. This may be the worst thing to happen to baseball since the strike or since the 1919 Black Sox scandal. When the Sox scandal went down, the rule that ultimately banned Pete Rose for life from baseball was put into place. You think Buddy will grow a set of baseballs and put some no tolerance rules in place for the use of steroids?

Justafan
12-03-2004, 10:13 AM
Who will Conti throw under the bus tonight?

Dusty Baker for KNOWING Bonds was taking the stuff. Dusty is ****#ng toothpicks right now.

munchman33
12-03-2004, 10:16 AM
Which begs the question - is Bonds trainer a certified medical professional?

What is the definition of medical professional?
Most trainers for professional players are, and I would assume someone like Barry Bonds would be paying for the highest credentials.

Flight #24
12-03-2004, 10:35 AM
Here's the thing - if I was told that I was being given something for aches, pains and fatigue, and I had significant physical changes to my body and significant emotional changes to my personality, I'd start to suspect that something was not on the up and up.

I honestly don't know which is worse - Bonds knowingly using and being a big liar or Bonds unknowingly using and being dumber than Sammy Sosa!
If you really think that guys who spend so much time working out, and who go through the whole process of vitamin deficiency testing, etc don't know exactly what they're putting into their bodies, then I have a bridge to sell you. Can it be proven? Maybe not - but there's no way that Barry didn't at least know that he was using *wink-wink* super-flaxseed oil. Not to mention "red beans".

And if he was truly misled and ingested chemicals under false pretenses, can't he sue Anderson? There's got to be some law that would prevent someone from giving me "candy" that has a significant impact on my body and future health.

MRKARNO
12-03-2004, 10:36 AM
Yep. Anyone defending the ballplayers or their actions is only setting themselves up to look like fools. It didn't take but one day for the Bonds defenders to have egg all over their face.

This story has only begun to unfold. The smart move is to get ahead of the curve and start looking for where it is headed next. I'm guessing the Bonds defenders had to learn their lesson the hard way.
:neener:

I still believe that if he didnt have steroids that he would still be hitting 700+ home runs like he has been because one of his biggest strengths is his hand-eye coordination and I was under the impression that steroids didn't help that, if not do harm to that. I think they've definately affected his total, but not significantly. Putting an asterisk by his name would be assinine because it wouldnt be fair to do it to him when you cant be sure that everyone in the past hasnt used them.

BTW if it came out that Bonds did not use steroids at all this year, which is likely, then how did he perform on the exact same level (except for that insane 2001) this year? Basically Bonds has admitted to using steroids in only 2003 I believe. Last time I checked that wasnt his only great season. Bonds wasnt involved with BALCO until the 2001 season and it's likely that that's the earliest he possibly could have been started using steroids. Bonds has posted an OPS of above 1.000 for 13 straight years. He's been hitting 40-45 homers and posting a very high OBP his whole career. I think the last few years definately have to come into question as to how good they really would be otherwise, but he's had a great career. I guess facts or the lack thereof wont get in the way of the Bonds-haters.

Flight #24
12-03-2004, 10:42 AM
I wonder if this also kills any hope the Chubs had of trading Sham-me? I mean if GMs are afraid of guys getting nabbed either from a suspension or PR perspective, they can'tbe falling all over themselves to take on a declining guy (coincidentally happening as steroid testing improved in MLB), who's a prime candidate if anyone bothers to look, can they?

Of course, if $7mil/yr for Kris freakin Benson is any indication, Minaya might do it anyway.
Per Tom Shaer on ESPN1000: Mets are backing away from a potential trade for Sammy because of concerns about steroid use and declining production.

The noose continues to tighten.

idseer
12-03-2004, 10:48 AM
If you really think that guys who spend so much time working out, and who go through the whole process of vitamin deficiency testing, etc don't know exactly what they're putting into their bodies, then I have a bridge to sell you. Can it be proven? Maybe not - but there's no way that Barry didn't at least know that he was using *wink-wink* super-flaxseed oil. Not to mention "red beans".

And if he was truly misled and ingested chemicals under false pretenses, can't he sue Anderson? There's got to be some law that would prevent someone from giving me "candy" that has a significant impact on my body and future health.
i really like this point. if indeed barry DOESN'T sue his trainer ..... wouldn't that pretty much show he knew all along? i got a feeling the reason that he won't is that anderson would then prove that barry DID know what was going on. same with sheffield. why isn't he suing the guy that slipped him steroids?

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 10:48 AM
:nandrolone Flaxseed oil and rubbing balm? GMAB. And you all laughed at me for saying I didn't know the bat was corked!

daveeym
12-03-2004, 10:59 AM
Well I'm not sure if it would hold, but the relevant code reads: "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess a controlled substance..."

So the gov't would have to prove that Bonds knew what it was he was ingesting. I'm not sure how thin or strong the case would be, depends on the circumstances. Unless they can get Anderson or someone else to say that Bonds knew what he was taking, or show that Bonds had taken it in the past as well, then it would be hard to prove actual knowledge.

In the Rush example, if the 'friend' testified that Rush knew what it was, then yes the defense would be pretty weak. ya see it's knowingly OR intentionally. Ignorance may get him out of perjury but not for intentionally obtaining and possessing the drugs. And intentionally in this way is not "knowingly intended or had knowing intent of said illegal drugs and steroids."

FightingBillini
12-03-2004, 11:01 AM
I still believe that if he didnt have steroids that he would still be hitting 700+ home runs like he has been because one of his biggest strengths is his hand-eye coordination and I was under the impression that steroids didn't help that, if not do harm to that. I think they've definately affected his total, but not significantly. Putting an asterisk by his name would be assinine because it wouldnt be fair to do it to him when you cant be sure that everyone in the past hasnt used them.

BTW if it came out that Bonds did not use steroids at all this year, which is likely, then how did he perform on the exact same level (except for that insane 2001) this year? Basically Bonds has admitted to using steroids in only 2003 I believe. Last time I checked that wasnt his only great season. Bonds wasnt involved with BALCO until the 2001 season and it's likely that that's the earliest he possibly could have been started using steroids. Bonds has posted an OPS of above 1.000 for 13 straight years. He's been hitting 40-45 homers and posting a very high OBP his whole career. I think the last few years definately have to come into question as to how good they really would be otherwise, but he's had a great career. I guess facts or the lack thereof wont get in the way of the Bonds-haters.
Get out of here, city boy. Your logic has no place here.

daveeym
12-03-2004, 11:07 AM
Get out of here, city boy. Your logic has no place here. well you either flipped or you meant that in teal. what you defenders don't seem to grasp is that a bonds is not using steroids because he's a crappy player but because mediocre and good players are using them and are threatening his ego, financial gain etc. etc. and start leveling the playing field with bonds. Thus bonds gets on them to regain his greatest player status. why's it so damn hard for people to understand this. Steroids don't turn an uncordinated schmuck into babe ruth but it does enhance (performance enhancing drugs DUH) what god given ability already exists.

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 11:15 AM
Get out of here, city boy. Your logic has no place here.Give up the fight before you look even more stupid. You were wrong, Bonds is a juicer, and he will forever be tainted. :whiner:

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 11:35 AM
ya see it's knowingly OR intentionally. Ignorance may get him out of perjury but not for intentionally obtaining and possessing the drugs. And intentionally in this way is not "knowingly intended or had knowing intent of said illegal drugs and steroids."As a legal matter, it only has to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt". If his explanation is completely lame and there is enough evidence to indicate that he knew what he was doing, it's not going to fly. In a criminal case, it's up to the jury to make that judgement.

PaulDrake
12-03-2004, 11:58 AM
well you either flipped or you meant that in teal. what you defenders don't seem to grasp is that a bonds is not using steroids because he's a crappy player but because mediocre and good players are using them and are threatening his ego, financial gain etc. etc. and start leveling the playing field with bonds. Thus bonds gets on them to regain his greatest player status. why's it so damn hard for people to understand this. Steroids don't turn an uncordinated schmuck into babe ruth but it does enhance (performance enhancing drugs DUH) what god given ability already exists. Thank you for stating the obvious. This is cheating plain and simple and only time will tell how much it hurts the game. I think it's going to be like that punch to the gut Bernard Hopkins delivered to Oscar De La Hoya in their recent title fight.

StepsInSC
12-03-2004, 12:34 PM
ya see it's knowingly OR intentionally. Ignorance may get him out of perjury but not for intentionally obtaining and possessing the drugs. And intentionally in this way is not "knowingly intended or had knowing intent of said illegal drugs and steroids."Intent is a higher culpability than knowledge. You can't have the intent to do something without knowledge of what it is you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As a legal matter, it only has to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt". If his explanation is completely lame and there is enough evidence to indicate that he knew what he was doing, it's not going to fly. In a criminal case, it's up to the jury to make that judgement.True but they have to get some evidence at least to get to even get to a jury - and obviously I have no idea if there even is any.

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 01:09 PM
Intent is a higher culpability than knowledge. You can't have the intent to do something without knowledge of what it is you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

True but they have to get some evidence at least to get to even get to a jury - and obviously I have no idea if there even is any.It's really moot since he was given immunity. But they COULD prosecute him for perjury if they wanted to allege he lied when he said he didn't know. Not likely, though. It's not for nothing that perjury trials are so rare.

Soxzilla
12-03-2004, 01:10 PM
Intent is a higher culpability than knowledge. You can't have the intent to do something without knowledge of what it is you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

True but they have to get some evidence at least to get to even get to a jury - and obviously I have no idea if there even is any.
You're right. From what his testimony states, he intended to take medicine for his arthritis etc. You can't get him for intending to take steriods when in fact he didn't intend to do so because he didn't know the medicine was a steroid.

idseer
12-03-2004, 01:16 PM
You're right. From what his testimony states, he intended to take medicine for his arthritis etc. You can't get him for intending to take steriods when in fact he didn't intend to do so because he didn't know the medicine was a steroid.
i believe they already HAVE the proof of his knowledge of it.

Soxzilla
12-03-2004, 01:41 PM
i believe they already HAVE the proof of his knowledge of it.
From '98? Where does it say that?

jdm2662
12-03-2004, 01:49 PM
Didn't the Feds request certain player's test results, but the PA balked. Then, the Feds got a warrant to seize all the tests taken? Can anyone refresh my memory if that happened?

As for Bonds, if they granted him a deal to testify, the only thing he can get prosecuted on is for lying. Unless there is concrete evidence that he knew what he was taking, he's not going to have a new wardobe of orange jump suits...

My other question, wouldn't the pitchers not be pleased about this, and would want strict testing? It would only make sense to me.
________
PORNSTARS SEX (http://www.****tube.com/categories/32/pornstars/videos/1)

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 01:56 PM
My other question, wouldn't the pitchers not be pleased about this, and would want strict testing? It would only make sense to me.No, the Players' Association sticks together no matter what because it's in their best interests. Do you think pitchers aren't using roids?

idseer
12-03-2004, 02:39 PM
From '98? Where does it say that?
i don't know about '98. espn showed that in an interview, 2 months after he had been shown his trainer was dishing out steroids, he still claimed he never took any.

santo=dorf
12-03-2004, 02:42 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2171240_7_3.jpg
Bonds in 1998.

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2171242_7_2.jpg

Bonds in 1999

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2171244_7_2.jpg

Bonds in 2000

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 02:44 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2171240_7_3.jpg
Bonds in 1998.

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2171242_7_2.jpg

Bonds in 1999

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2171244_7_2.jpg

Bonds in 2000Gotta get me some of that flaxseed oil.

voodoochile
12-03-2004, 02:46 PM
Gotta get me some of that flaxseed oil. :nandrolone
"No, you want Flinstone chewables. Trust me. Flaxseed oil isn't half as good..."

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 02:48 PM
:nandrolone
"No, you want Flinstone chewables. Trust me. Flaxseed oil isn't half as good..."Right. Flintstone chewables. But just the "Bam-Bam" ones. The "Pebbles" ones don't have quite the same punch.

FightingBillini
12-03-2004, 04:05 PM
Give up the fight before you look even more stupid. You were wrong, Bonds is a juicer, and he will forever be tainted. :whiner:
Do I look even "more stupid" now? Insulting people really makes your arguement more good.

ChiSoxRowand
12-03-2004, 04:39 PM
What Barry Bonds did was wrong. But there is no doubt he should be in the hall of fame. What he did was not against the rules. It is a joke that some people want rose in the hall and not bonds.

Jjav829
12-03-2004, 04:40 PM
Gotta get me some of that flaxseed oil.Certainly nothing suspicious looking there. :rolleyes:

I just rubbed on some cream one of my co-workers gave me. Do my posts seem stronger? I don't know what's in it but he said it would me me feel better. Whatever.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 04:57 PM
What Barry Bonds did was wrong. But there is no doubt he should be in the hall of fame. What he did was not against the rules. It is a joke that some people want rose in the hall and not bonds.
Actually it is a joke that some people think there is a distinction to be made between punishing Rose for what he did OFF the field vs. what Bonds did ON the field.
:cool:

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 05:02 PM
Do I look even "more stupid" now? Insulting people really makes your arguement more good.Would you prefer "stupider"? :tongue:

Either way, Bonds is a juicer and you were wrong about him.

idseer
12-03-2004, 05:07 PM
Actually it is a joke that some people think there is a distinction to be made between punishing Rose for what he did OFF the field vs. what Bonds did ON the field.
:cool:
the hall of fame. :?: that can work several ways can't it?

the hall has been a joke for a long time imo. another in a long list of irrelevant self-serving things that fans fret and argue over.

i know one thing for sure. the hof is NOT a collection of all of the best players in baseball.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 05:12 PM
....i know one thing for sure. the hof is NOT a collection of all of the best players in baseball.
Yep. And certainly the HOF is not a collection of saints either, starting with the bigot and well-hated jerk Ty Cobb.

Allowing Bonds to enter the Hall is just one more reason why Pete Rose should never have been denied the honor in the first place.
:cool:

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 05:17 PM
Yep. And certainly the HOF is not a collection of saints either, starting with the bigot and well-hated jerk Ty Cobb.

Allowing Bonds to enter the Hall is just one more reason why Pete Rose should never have been denied the honor in the first place.
:cool:If I had a vote, I'd NEVER vote for either Rose or Bonds. Just my opinion.

idseer
12-03-2004, 05:19 PM
If I had a vote, I'd NEVER vote for either Rose or Bonds. Just my opinion.
and even tho i agree with what phg said .... i wouldn't either.

ja1022
12-03-2004, 05:31 PM
Haven't had an opportunity to read all the posts in this thread, but if anybody is really surprised that Bonds took steroids, or is suggesting that he truly didn't know what he was doing, or didn't take any (in spite of his apparent admission), then you are truly naive. I would guess you would also believe OJ is innocent and Michael Jackson isn't a pedophile.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 05:34 PM
Haven't had an opportunity to read all the posts in this thread, but if anybody is really surprised that Bonds took steroids, or is suggesting that he truly didn't know what he was doing, or didn't take any (in spite of his apparent admission), then you are truly naive. I would guess you would also believe OJ is innocent and Michael Jackson isn't a pedophile. I'll save you the trouble of reading the entire thread. Your beef is with FightingBillini.
:cool:

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 05:41 PM
Haven't had an opportunity to read all the posts in this thread, but if anybody is really surprised that Bonds took steroids, or is suggesting that he truly didn't know what he was doing, or didn't take any (in spite of his apparent admission), then you are truly naive. I would guess you would also believe OJ is innocent and Michael Jackson isn't a pedophile.http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1775000/images/_1778111_apoj.jpgDamn, and we almost got away with it.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/mar03/barry308.jpgThat ja1022 is just too sharp for us.
http://www.facade.com/celebrity/photo/Michael_Jackson.jpg Do you guys get to...you know...shower with the batboys?

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 05:49 PM
:) :) :)

Foulke29
12-03-2004, 06:01 PM
I just remember that piece of trash (Bonds) talking the smack about Ruth - saying that he was going to pass his record with no problem and when he did, no one should mention the white guy in the same sentence as Bonds.

I'm in total agreement. Ruth is toweringly better than Bonds ever could be with or without juice - end of story.

I'm out! *drops the mic on the floor*

daveeym
12-03-2004, 07:08 PM
Intent is a higher culpability than knowledge. You can't have the intent to do something without knowledge of what it is you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

True but they have to get some evidence at least to get to even get to a jury - and obviously I have no idea if there even is any. its not intent in the code section posted its INTENTIONALLY.

Well I'm not sure if it would hold, but the relevant code reads: "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess a controlled substance..."

He intentionally possessed a controlled substance while not knowing. It may not be prosecuted, a jury may not find him guilty and/or they may just hang with a misdemeanor but intentionally is not the same as intent here. Otherwise it would be the exact same as knowingly and wouldn't have to be included in the code. Ignorance is not a defense.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 07:40 PM
Here's a quote I think is pretty funny about Bonds' "flaxseed oil" defense. From the WSJ's Daily Fix...

:gulp:

...according to it [the SF Chronicle] Bonds told the grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by Balco, but never thought they were steroids. Bonds said Mr. Anderson gave him the substances, but told him they were flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis.

Which has MSNBC.com's Michael Ventre, well, flabbergasted.

"I can understand the confusion," he writes (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6642563/). "I took flaxseed oil for a while and noticed that my shirts burst at the seams and I was able to lift SUVs off the ground with one hand. I have also, from time to time, applied rubbing balm to my tired joints and muscles, and whenever I do I start getting calls from NFL scouts. Maybe Barry just didn't read the instructions on the labels. Maybe he took more than the recommended dosage. or maybe, just maybe, Barry is a liar."

santo=dorf
12-03-2004, 07:48 PM
Bonds said that Anderson had so little money that he ďlives in his car half the time.Ē Asked by a juror why he didnít buy ďa mansionĒ for his trainer, Bonds answered: ďOne, Iím black, and Iím keeping my money. And thereís not too many rich black people in this world. Thereís more wealthy Asian people and Caucasian and white. And I ainít giving my money up
What a classy guy. I'll be sure to treat my friends the same way when I become a multimillionaire one day.

I guess being a rich black guy is more important to Barry than helping out a "caucasian and white" friend. :angry:

EMel9281
12-03-2004, 08:52 PM
This whole situation is horrible for baseball. Just when baseball was getting back to the fans after the strike of 94/95, this steroid nonsense comes out. I am not a fan of Barry Bonds nor Jason Giambi for that matter. But, this might be the undoing of baseball for a while like the strike was.

MRKARNO
12-03-2004, 09:08 PM
This whole situation is horrible for baseball. Just when baseball was getting back to the fans after the strike of 94/95, this steroid nonsense comes out. I am not a fan of Barry Bonds nor Jason Giambi for that matter. But, this might be the undoing of baseball for a while like the strike was.
I'm not sure of the direness of the situation as you put it, but it very well could hurt the game as much. I don't get why anyone is happy. Whether or not you like Bonds or Giambi, this is absolutely terrible news for the game of baseball as we know it. It puts all of the records in question that have been made recently and takes away a lot from the game. People will be less eager to support a game if they think that a lot of the players are cheating or that some of the records were taken away or tainted by cheating.

:) :) :)
Why are you happy? This isn't happy news by any stretch of the imagination. If you are a Bonds-hater, fine, but at least recognize that this isn't good news either way. I dont understand why PHG is so happy either (I would be interested to find out if you could tell me PHG). For a person who has just really gotten into baseball within the past 5-10 years like me, this news is absolutely devastating and I think people around here are making a lot of snide comments without understanding the other side of the coin. This whole scandal is truly awful and one of the saddest things I have personally witnessed excluding the Sox getting swept up in Minny in 2003, but it certainly has a lot more of a greater significance of that.

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 09:31 PM
When I got home tonight I remembered I had some furniture polish with flaxseed oil in it, so I rubbed it all over my body just to see what happened. Other than having very shiny skin, I can't tell any difference. What do you guys think?

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 09:40 PM
Why are you happy? This isn't happy news by any stretch of the imagination. If you are a Bonds-hater, fine, but at least recognize that this isn't good news either way. I dont understand why PHG is so happy either (I would be interested to find out if you could tell me PHG). For a person who has just really gotten into baseball within the past 5-10 years like me, this news is absolutely devastating and I think people around here are making a lot of snide comments without understanding the other side of the coin. This whole scandal is truly awful and one of the saddest things I have personally witnessed excluding the Sox getting swept up in Minny in 2003, but it certainly has a lot more of a greater significance of that.I was just laughing at Ol' No. 2's #77 post.

MRKARNO
12-03-2004, 09:52 PM
I was just laughing at Ol' No. 2's #77 post.
OK sorry I vented at you then, but I know that people are happy because of this (maybe not you, but there are certainly some) and the point still stands.

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 09:53 PM
OK sorry I vented at you then, but I know that people are happy because of this (maybe not you, but there are certainly some) and the point still stands.Yeah, I see your point but you would have to be very naive to believe players have been steroid-free for the past 10 years. Did you really think guys like McGwire, Bonds, Giambi, and Sosa were "au natural"?

idseer
12-03-2004, 10:01 PM
OK sorry I vented at you then, but I know that people are happy because of this (maybe not you, but there are certainly some) and the point still stands. i don't think anyone is 'happy' for what has happened.
at most there is some satisfaction at being proven right about bonds. proving to all those people who managed to ignore all the signs that indeed the man is on steroids.
throw in the fact that this isn't anything new as far as scandals go in mlb. after so much crap it does kinda become laughable in a way. all the serious rumblings by owners, the non-commissioner, the players, yet almost every one of them being partly at fault for letting it ride for so long.
it's a joke! a bad joke, but a joke nonetheless. sorry for all the younger fans out there, but hey, this is what you have to look forward to in pro sports most likely for the rest of your lives.
my advice ... don't get too serious about it and STOP SPENDING YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY ON IT! you're simply feeding this uncontrollable monster and with no representation.

MRKARNO
12-03-2004, 10:02 PM
Yeah, I see your point but you would have to be very naive to believe players have been steroid-free for the past 10 years. Did you really think guys like McGwire, Bonds, Giambi, and Sosa were "au natural"?
I wasn't old enough to know the difference for the better part of the decade. I didnt even know what steroids were and did until Mark McGuire came out that he had been using Andro. Anyways, I was inclined to believe them once I found out what they were and what they did because all of these players have insane workout regimines. I still think Bonds was aided a lot more by his insane workout regimine than by any steroid. Besides, there is zero evidence, or speculation that Bonds was using steroids around 1998, as indicated in an earlier post, but Bonds hit 46 in 1993 and pretty much averaged close to 40 before 2000.

idseer
12-03-2004, 10:10 PM
I wasn't old enough to know the difference for the better part of the decade. I didnt even know what steroids were and did until Mark McGuire came out that he had been using Andro. Anyways, I was inclined to believe them once I found out what they were and what they did because all of these players have insane workout regimines. I still think Bonds was aided a lot more by his insane workout regimine than by any steroid. Besides, there is zero evidence, or speculation that Bonds was using steroids around 1998, as indicated in an earlier post, but Bonds hit 46 in 1993 and pretty much averaged close to 40 before 2000. actually, until that year he was averaging less than 32 hr's a year.
after what we now know i'd say his truthfulness is a big question. there may be no evidence of earlier transgressions ... but then, no one was looking for them earlier either.

in any event, this is a man who likely would have averaged about 30 a year for his career (MOST hitters hit then less often as they age). NOT the insane number it is now.

FarWestChicago
12-03-2004, 10:28 PM
I wasn't old enough to know the difference for the better part of the decade. I didnt even know what steroids were and did until Mark McGuire came out that he had been using Andro.1976 Montreal Summer Olympics. I was 19, 6' 3" and 190 lbs. The East German Women's Swimming team came out. My sister's said, "Those women make you look like a wimp". Time after time the heralded American women reached the wall in world record time, only to find a huge East German woman was already there. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif

Edit: Kornelia Ender, their best swimmer, has always claimed they didn't know they were doing 'roids. The team doctor's just routinely injected them and they weren't told what it was. I believe her, and so does Shirley Babashoff, who took 4 Silver medals in that Olympics.

MRKARNO
12-03-2004, 10:38 PM
actually, until that year he was averaging less than 32 hr's a year.

I was referring more to his "power" stage that began in 1992. Power develops later so this is understandable. Between 1992 to 1998, he averaged 39 home runs per year.

Jabroni
12-03-2004, 11:01 PM
I was referring more to his "power" stage that began in 1992. Power develops later so this is understandable. Between 1992 to 1998, he averaged 39 home runs per year."Power" stage? Don't you mean "steroid" stage? :tongue:

flo-B-flo
12-04-2004, 01:23 AM
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/images/08/10/top.barry.bonds.1.ap.jpg

"I thought it they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis."

http://i.cnn.net/si/2004/pr/subs/siexclusive/01/13/scorecard0119/p1_rose.jpg

"I didn't bet on baseball."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/cy/2/2c/Bill-Clinton.png

"It depends on what your definition of "is" is."

http://www.thisnation.com/media/loc.gov%20photos/rn.jpg

"I am not a crook."

:reinsy

"We're going to turn this into a first class organization." Quite the crowd. And there are others.

StillMissOzzie
12-04-2004, 01:35 AM
Edit: Kornelia Ender, their best swimmer, has always claimed they didn't know they were doing 'roids. The team doctor's just routinely injected them and they weren't told what it was. I believe her, and so does Shirley Babashoff, who took 4 Silver medals in that Olympics.
You mean growing a set of 'nads wasn't a clue?

Seriously, I would agree too. It's impossible to compare an East German Communist regime hell-bent on national pride with the free enterprise actions of, say, MLB players who want to make $17M by hitting more homers instead of $10M by just hitting for average, by downing "flaxseed oil".

SMO
:angry:

TheBull19
12-04-2004, 07:42 AM
I just remember that piece of trash (Bonds) talking the smack about Ruth - saying that he was going to pass his record with no problem and when he did, no one should mention the white guy in the same sentence as Bonds.

I'm in total agreement. Ruth is toweringly better than Bonds ever could be with or without juice - end of story.

Even if you overlook the "little" steroid issue, and see maybe Bonds is a better hitter than Ruth, the fact is, Ruth led the league in ERA! Ruth is 15th all time in ERA! Ruth was an ace pitcher on a world series team! If Bonds ever made the top 100 in ERA in a single season, maybe I'd consider him a better player.

As for his mention of Ruth being a white guy, I think its not so much the fact that Ruth is a white guy in itself, but that he played during an era when non-whites were not allowed to play. You have to admit that kind of taints those guys standing when comparing them to players of the last 50 years, who have played against all the very best players in world of baseball, not just the best white guys.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-04-2004, 09:49 AM
OK sorry I vented at you then, but I know that people are happy because of this (maybe not you, but there are certainly some) and the point still stands. Who on earth is "happy" about Bonds and Giambi admitting they used steroids? Albeit unknowingly, of course.

I remember WSI had a guy posting here who was a real student and advocate of performance-enhancing drugs. To hear him tell it, getting juiced was no different than lifting weights or avoiding junk food and eating a healthy diet. He even disputed whether steroids were unhealthy and whether drug abuse could kill even the healthiest of athletes. This of course was before Ken Caminiti dropped dead.

That little prick hasn't been back. If anything makes me "happy" about the admissions of Bonds and Giambi, it is that little pricks like that poster don't dare come back to spout the complete nonsense they tried to lay on the rest of us.

The accomplishments of Bonds and Giambi are a complete joke, and baseball has been tarnished because of it. This is nothing to be "happy" about.

Ol' No. 2
12-04-2004, 10:21 AM
I wasn't old enough to know the difference for the better part of the decade. I didnt even know what steroids were and did until Mark McGuire came out that he had been using Andro. Anyways, I was inclined to believe them once I found out what they were and what they did because all of these players have insane workout regimines. I still think Bonds was aided a lot more by his insane workout regimine than by any steroid. Besides, there is zero evidence, or speculation that Bonds was using steroids around 1998, as indicated in an earlier post, but Bonds hit 46 in 1993 and pretty much averaged close to 40 before 2000.What you're missing is that those "insane workout regimens" are only possible BECAUSE of the steroids. Steroids don't build muscle by themselves. If you shoot up and then lie around on the couch, you're not going to look like the Incredible Hulk. The steroids accelerate muscle repair after a workout, which is what actually does the muscle building. By accelerating the muscle repair, you can workout again sooner, further accelerating the process. Maybe one of the medical guys can elaborate on this more, but I think I've got the basic facts right.

voodoochile
12-04-2004, 10:32 AM
Even if you overlook the "little" steroid issue, and see maybe Bonds is a better hitter than Ruth, the fact is, Ruth led the league in ERA! Ruth is 15th all time in ERA! Ruth was an ace pitcher on a world series team! If Bonds ever made the top 100 in ERA in a single season, maybe I'd consider him a better player.

As for his mention of Ruth being a white guy, I think its not so much the fact that Ruth is a white guy in itself, but that he played during an era when non-whites were not allowed to play. You have to admit that kind of taints those guys standing when comparing them to players of the last 50 years, who have played against all the very best players in world of baseball, not just the best white guys.
Yes, but over those same 50 years 3 other major sports have started to suck off great athletes. In Ruth's day, baseball was the only game in town.

Ol' No. 2
12-04-2004, 10:42 AM
Yes, but over those same 50 years 3 other major sports have started to suck off great athletes. In Ruth's day, baseball was the only game in town.Yeah. These guys would have given Ruth a run for his money.:tongue:
http://www.clutchfans.net/images/yao_ming227.jpghttp://www.grudge-match.com/Images/fridge.jpg

voodoochile
12-04-2004, 11:38 AM
Yeah. These guys would have given Ruth a run for his money.:tongue:
http://www.clutchfans.net/images/yao_ming227.jpghttp://www.grudge-match.com/Images/fridge.jpg
Actually, I was going the other way with that. Baseball players might have been sucked into other sports at a younger age and ended up doing something else.

ondafarm
12-04-2004, 11:53 AM
Yes, but over those same 50 years 3 other major sports have started to suck off great athletes. In Ruth's day, baseball was the only game in town.
My grandfather saw Zeke Bonura, later a first baseman with the White Sox, play college basketball. Evidently, he was the star on a team that beat several of the most prominent midwestern teams on one tour. He also had a nickname that is a semi-finalist in "greatest nicknames", "Banana-Nose Bonura".

Ol' No. 2
12-04-2004, 12:39 PM
Actually, I was going the other way with that. Baseball players might have been sucked into other sports at a younger age and ended up doing something else.I realize that, but the point was that those posessing the physical traits required for other sports would not necessarily be good baseball players. I guess it should have been in teal.

voodoochile
12-04-2004, 12:56 PM
I realize that, but the point was that those posessing the physical traits required for other sports would not necessarily be good baseball players. I guess it should have been in teal.
I think it's pretty hard to teal pictures and I did get that you were being obviously sarcastic and going to lengths to use examples of athletes who wouldn't have been able to play in MLB even if they DID posess said physical traits.

And I wouldn't count out the Fridge. He was a "knee bender" (read: heck of an athlete for a man his size) :wink:

PaulDrake
12-04-2004, 01:43 PM
My grandfather saw Zeke Bonura, later a first baseman with the White Sox, play college basketball. Evidently, he was the star on a team that beat several of the most prominent midwestern teams on one tour. He also had a nickname that is a semi-finalist in "greatest nicknames", "Banana-Nose Bonura".Baseball Hall of Famer Lou Boudreau from Harvey, led Thornton to the Illinois HS basketball championship in 1933. He was said to be equally good if not better in basketball. Of course there was professional basketball but no NBA in the 30s.

Ol' No. 2
12-04-2004, 02:57 PM
I think it's pretty hard to teal pictures and I did get that you were being obviously sarcastic and going to lengths to use examples of athletes who wouldn't have been able to play in MLB even if they DID posess said physical traits.

And I wouldn't count out the Fridge. He was a "knee bender" (read: heck of an athlete for a man his size) :wink:If you recall, the Fridge could dunk a basketball. Probably didn't do much for the floor underneath the hoop, though.:D:

santo=dorf
12-05-2004, 05:53 AM
Interesting stat.

But, where he averaged 36 homers a year in his prime, he's averaged 52 a year in five years theoretically past his prime. WFAN's Christopher Russo interviewed a home run distance expert who claimed that prior to 2000, Bonds hit three homers longer than 450 feet; in the last five years, he has hit 26.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1938586

Parrothead
12-05-2004, 07:21 AM
:tomatoaward

Come on people get with it, I had to put this up.

I know I am shocked that Bonds took 'roids. Next you will say other baseball players, football players and professional wrestlers are taking them too.

StepsInSC
12-05-2004, 09:19 AM
I think Gammons may be onto something...

...when owners and chicks who dug the long ball stimulated the steroids era.
Clearly, this is the fault of women! They dig the longball, and we dig them, it was inevitable!