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Foulke29
12-02-2004, 02:03 PM
I know he's not going up this year, but with the Hall of Fame anouncement on the way, I thought I'd pose the question:

Should Rock Raines be in?

What are your arguements for and against?

On a side note, do you believe there are any 'no brainer' standards that should qualifiy players for the HoF?

Examples are 3000 hits or 500 HR or 300 wins. What other standards do you think would qualify one for the HoF without a second thought?

doublem23
12-02-2004, 02:18 PM
3,000 hits and 300 wins are no-brainers, IMO, but given the steroid scandals as of late, I don't know how much 500 homers is a no-brainer for some of the guys at 500. I think it still is, but I don't know for how long.

jackbrohamer
12-02-2004, 02:25 PM
Examples are 3000 hits or 500 HR or 300 wins. What other standards do you think would qualify one for the HoF without a second thought?
With the hyper-inflation in HR totals in the late 1990s up to when numbers started declining the last couple of years (coinciding with an increased focus on steroid use) I think the 500 HR number is anywhere near as meaningful as it used to be, and shouldn't automatically lead to induction.

petekat
12-02-2004, 02:32 PM
i think 3000 hits is worthy, but a bit overrated- in the case of Wade Boggs. why is Boggs considered a sure thing- at just over 3000, yet the Hawk is falling short- he has 2700 + hits, but did so much more- gold gloves, 400+ dingers, 300 + steals, not to mention bad wheels. Same goes with Harold- my guess is he'll have a difficult time as a border line candidate, he fell short of 3000, but has much better power and RBI numbers than Boggs, the sure thing

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 02:54 PM
i think 3000 hits is worthy, but a bit overrated- in the case of Wade Boggs. why is Boggs considered a sure thing- at just over 3000, yet the Hawk is falling short- he has 2700 + hits, but did so much more- gold gloves, 400+ dingers, 300 + steals, not to mention bad wheels. Same goes with Harold- my guess is he'll have a difficult time as a border line candidate, he fell short of 3000, but has much better power and RBI numbers than Boggs, the sure thing
No offense, but are you on drugs? Boggs was a number 2 hitter for the major part of his career. Prior to the steroid problem, number 2 hitters rarely knocked in 100 RBI. Did it happen? Sure it did, but it certainly was not the norm.

Boggs won five batting titles. Name me one other player in the last forty years that one three or more other than Boggs. He strung together seven consecutive seasons of 200 or more hits and 100 Runs scored - no one else has done that. Keep in mind that he recorded 240 hits in 1985. He retired with a .328 BA and a .414 OBP. Not only could the guy get 200 hits a year, but he could draw 90+ BB consistantly. I would say that this guy only has three third basemen who are better than him in the historyof the game - Schmidt, Brett and Matthews.

Oh, and by the way in 10592 plate appearences/18 seasons, Wade Boggs struckout 745 times. That's about 50 strikeouts per 162 games average.

To me a clearer cut HoF could not be made.

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:05 PM
Boggs won five batting titles. Name me one other player in the last forty years that one three or more other than Boggs.

Tony Gwynn?

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:06 PM
I'm pretty sure Rod Carew won at least three too.

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:07 PM
Also Bill Madlock. :D:

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:09 PM
George Brett too.

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:10 PM
And Pete Rose. :D:

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:10 PM
And going all the way back to '64, Robert Clemente would qualify.

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:11 PM
:hawk

"And don't forget about Yaz - MERCY!"

idseer
12-02-2004, 03:12 PM
he said name ONE! :smile:



ps .... raines ....no.

Brian26
12-02-2004, 03:13 PM
he said name ONE! :smile:

LOL! :)

I agree...no to Raines.

idseer
12-02-2004, 03:15 PM
pps .... yaz and oliva too!

compy75
12-02-2004, 03:20 PM
Straight from Baseball-reference.com, Hall of Fame Monitor for some players mentioned:
100< indicates Likely HOF
Boggs 268
Raines 90.5
Dawson 118
Baines 66.5
Madlock 69 (4 batting titles)

Frank Thomas 179
Jack McDowell 36.5

Worth looking at, it's interesting.

mweflen
12-02-2004, 03:44 PM
I don't think Tim Raines rises to the level of the HOF. Good player, even great for a decent stretch, but not HOF material. The telling stat for me is his Runs Scored. For a guy with such base stealing ability, he just didn't really rock that stat too well. It's fine, granted, but not HOF level. Raines to me is a 'close but no cigar' type of player.

Boggs, on the other hand, has a streak of 7 straight 200+ hit seasons, a career BA of .328, Career OBP of .415, 3000 hits, and played on the big stages in baseball, BoSox and the Evil Empire. These facts alone will guarantee him a first-chance inclusion. I don't think he's the strongest guy who will ever be in the hall, but he's good enough.

I agree that 500 HR is rapidly becoming a meaningless 'benchmark.' So what should it be? 600?

I mean, look at the active guys who have or likely will have topped 500 before they're done:

Sammy Sosa 574
Rafy Palmiero 551
Ken Griffey Jr. 501
Fred McGriff 493
Jeff Bagwell 446
Frank Thomas 436
Juan Gonzalez 434
Jim Thome 423
Manny Ramirez 390

Which of these guys should be in the hall? Certainly not Bagwell, McGriff, Griffey, Gonzalez or Thome. Even Frank is a huge long shot. Hopefully, drug revelations will keep Sosa and Sheffield out. If and when Palmiero tops 3000 hits, he is a likely inclusion.

Henderson 3055
Palmiero 2922
Bonds 2730
Alomar 2724
Biggio 2639
McGriff 2490

On the other hand, look at the 3000 hit club. Of the active list even anywhere close, only Bonds and Palmiero have a realistic shot. And they're probably locks to make it in. (Of course Bonds, probably Palmy). Then, the gulf widens to a chasm. The 3000 hit mountain is obviously a lot harder climb than the 500 HR molehill. It's probably the only true "lock" HOF offensive benchmark.

I think a lot of benchmark numbers should not be considered alone - you should have a combo of many or most benchmark offensive numbers to be considered. 500 HR, .300 career average, .400 OBP, 1500 RBI, 5000 TB. If you've got a lot of one, but not a lot in many others, you're probably one dimensional (i.e. Juan Gonzalez).

HR and Slugging percentage should be given diminishing weight, as well, in today's bandbox park and juiced player era.

Let's say Gary Sheffield plays 3 more full years and avoids suspension for steroid use. And let's say Big Frank does the same. These are two borderline players. Good, great, but are they hallworthy? Their stats will probably end up something like this:

Sheffield.......Frank
.295.... AVE. .300
.395... OBP.. .425
.520... SLG.. .550
2700...Hits... 2500
500.... HR.... 510
4500...TB.... 4600
1650...RBI... 1700

So should they make it in? They're just above the benchmark in the "easier" categories, and both fall short on the Hits category. What did they do for their teams? Did they ever lead others to greatness? Ummm, nope. Did they have exceptional longevity at a high level of performance? (i.e. Ripken) Did they do something that had never been done before, or were they just upper echelon representatives at their position?

Dolanski
12-02-2004, 04:04 PM
Hopefully, drug revelations will keep Sosa and Sheffield out.
Drug revelations? You mean like Tim Raines sliding head first into second base to make sure he didn't break the vials of coke in his back pocket in the mid to late 80s?

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 04:10 PM
I mean, look at the active guys who have or likely will have topped 500 before they're done:

Sammy Sosa 574
Rafy Palmiero 551
Ken Griffey Jr. 501
Fred McGriff 493
Jeff Bagwell 446
Frank Thomas 436
Juan Gonzalez 434
Jim Thome 423
Manny Ramirez 390

Which of these guys should be in the hall? Certainly not Bagwell, McGriff, Griffey, Gonzalez or Thome. Even Frank is a huge long shot. Hopefully, drug revelations will keep Sosa and Sheffield out. If and when Palmiero tops 3000 hits, he is a likely inclusion.

Okay - again, no offense, but I'm not sure how you can leave Bagwell off the list - or Griffey Jr. for that matter. Granted, we've seen declines in their careers, but don't you think their primes were good enough? To date, Bagwell is a career .297 hitter with a .404 OBP and a .542 slg percentage.

In the history of the game, only Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Edgar Martinez and Barry Bonds have the 300/400/500 AVG/OBP/SLG with 500+ doubles, 300+ HR, 1000+ BB, and 2000 Hits.

Now granted, any one of those things by themselves is not Hall material; however, all of them combined gives us a pretty elite group. Hell, only 14 players in the history of the game have retired with the 300/400/500 break down of AVG/OBP/SLG, and every one of them are in the Hall of Fame except Shoeless Joe and 'gar Martinez. Bagwell is very close to joining the elite clove of seven players to accomplish this feat. Bagwell, is at .297 for career AVG and 16 doubles short of becoming a member of that club.

But then again, what do I know? I think 'gar should be in the Hall as well.

Junior is a different kind of story. For over ten years - from '89 to '00 arguements were constantly made on whether he was the best player in all of baseball. Only injury has caused for critics to argue against his Hall credentials. Junior strung together over 10 gold gloves, was the youngest player to reach 200, 300, 350 and 400 HR respectively. he broke as a regular and at 19 and played beyond his years. He was named to the all century team and regarded as one of the top 100 players of all by the Sporting News time prior to 2000. Again, Griffey is no less deserving than Sandy Koufax or Roy Campanella.

I'll save my Frank "Big Hurt" arguement for the next post. He's a lock. Period! But I'll make my arguement on my next post.

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 04:32 PM
Let's say Gary Sheffield plays 3 more full years and avoids suspension for steroid use. And let's say Big Frank does the same. These are two borderline players. Good, great, but are they hallworthy? Their stats will probably end up something like this:

Sheffield.......Frank
.295.... AVE. .300
.395... OBP.. .425
.520... SLG.. .550
2700...Hits... 2500
500.... HR.... 510
4500...TB.... 4600
1650...RBI... 1700

So should they make it in? They're just above the benchmark in the "easier" categories, and both fall short on the Hits category. What did they do for their teams? Did they ever lead others to greatness? Ummm, nope. Did they have exceptional longevity at a high level of performance? (i.e. Ripken) Did they do something that had never been done before, or were they just upper echelon representatives at their position?
Okay - Frank Thomas. Let's not consider the two MVP awards - as Roger Maris won two MVP awards. Let's not look at the fact that he finished in the top ten in MVP voting 8 times. Forget the fact that he too will finish - if he retired today - with a 300/400/500 AVG/OBP/SLG - as I talked about that in my last post.

Like Griffey Jr, from '91 to '98, Frank was mentioned with the best players in baseball, and I often recall him being mentioned as one of the most popular from '93 to '96. Frank Thomas was the first and only player to string together seven consecutive seasons of a .300 AVG, 20+ HR, 100 RBI, 100 Runs and 100 BB. No other player has done that and he did it when the '94 and '95 seasons were shortened by 20 games each season. Frank showed that offensively - he could do it all. He was consistantly named in the early '90s as the batter pitchers least wanted to face in the entire league. He didn't have to kill you with a HR, and his eye was better than the umpires'. Frank's .729 SLG of '94 ranks as the 21st highest single season slugging percentage in the history of the game.

Furthermore, don't forget that prior to the Sammy-McGwire race to 61 in '98, Hurt and Matt Williams were racing to 61 in '94.

Frank is clearly a first ballot Hall of Famer, and short of Ed Walsh is probably the best player ever to put on a White Sox uniform. If that doesn't get you in, then let's but Barry Bonds in and get everyone else out except Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb and call them the father, son and holy ghost!

mweflen
12-02-2004, 05:07 PM
Foulke29,

I'm a Thomas fan. I want to say that flat out. I think his big stretch in the early 90s is a big reason that he will be considered. But I think his inconsistency since due to injury and the DH role will work against him in terms of public perception.

Longevity is an overlooked aspect of HOF credentials, I think. If Frank plays for only 2 or 3 more years and posts .270/25/90 type numbers, his case is not helped too considerably. But if he can play for 4 or 5 more years at that level, his case will be boosted pretty strongly. I for one hope he does, in a Sox uniform no less. (I think playing out his whole career with the Sox will also boost his rep among hall voters)

But he's going to be in for another bout of "no respect" when he tests the waters for a .280 hitting DH at age 38. He'll be lucky to get a 3 year/18mil deal.

cburns
12-02-2004, 05:40 PM
Do the public vote players into the HOF?

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 05:58 PM
Foulke29,

I'm a Thomas fan. I want to say that flat out. I think his big stretch in the early 90s is a big reason that he will be considered. But I think his inconsistency since due to injury and the DH role will work against him in terms of public perception.

Longevity is an overlooked aspect of HOF credentials, I think. If Frank plays for only 2 or 3 more years and posts .270/25/90 type numbers, his case is not helped too considerably. But if he can play for 4 or 5 more years at that level, his case will be boosted pretty strongly. I for one hope he does, in a Sox uniform no less. (I think playing out his whole career with the Sox will also boost his rep among hall voters)

But he's going to be in for another bout of "no respect" when he tests the waters for a .280 hitting DH at age 38. He'll be lucky to get a 3 year/18mil deal.
You're right. Longevity is overlooked, but honestly, Frank has served his time. I'm trying to argue that the first seven years of his career were great enough to compensate for above average years that he's had since.

batmanZoSo
12-02-2004, 06:55 PM
I know he's not going up this year, but with the Hall of Fame anouncement on the way, I thought I'd pose the question:

Should Rock Raines be in?

What are your arguements for and against?

On a side note, do you believe there are any 'no brainer' standards that should qualifiy players for the HoF?

Examples are 3000 hits or 500 HR or 300 wins. What other standards do you think would qualify one for the HoF without a second thought?
There's no question he's a hall of famer. He's just a shade behind Rickey Henderson at leadoff and had some monster years in Montreal with a .330 average, a .420 on-base, 80 steals and close to 20 homers. He's one of my favorite players of all time, so maybe I'm a little biased, but he's totally a hall of famer in my opinion. Winning a World Series in New York--while being integral--will help his case.

batmanZoSo
12-02-2004, 06:57 PM
I don't think Tim Raines rises to the level of the HOF. Good player, even great for a decent stretch, but not HOF material. The telling stat for me is his Runs Scored. For a guy with such base stealing ability, he just didn't really rock that stat too well. It's fine, granted, but not HOF level. Raines to me is a 'close but no cigar' type of player.

Boggs, on the other hand, has a streak of 7 straight 200+ hit seasons, a career BA of .328, Career OBP of .415, 3000 hits, and played on the big stages in baseball, BoSox and the Evil Empire. These facts alone will guarantee him a first-chance inclusion. I don't think he's the strongest guy who will ever be in the hall, but he's good enough.

I agree that 500 HR is rapidly becoming a meaningless 'benchmark.' So what should it be? 600?

I mean, look at the active guys who have or likely will have topped 500 before they're done:

Sammy Sosa 574
Rafy Palmiero 551
Ken Griffey Jr. 501
Fred McGriff 493
Jeff Bagwell 446
Frank Thomas 436
Juan Gonzalez 434
Jim Thome 423
Manny Ramirez 390

Which of these guys should be in the hall? Certainly not Bagwell, McGriff, Griffey, Gonzalez or Thome. Even Frank is a huge long shot. Hopefully, drug revelations will keep Sosa and Sheffield out. If and when Palmiero tops 3000 hits, he is a likely inclusion.

Henderson 3055
Palmiero 2922
Bonds 2730
Alomar 2724
Biggio 2639
McGriff 2490

On the other hand, look at the 3000 hit club. Of the active list even anywhere close, only Bonds and Palmiero have a realistic shot. And they're probably locks to make it in. (Of course Bonds, probably Palmy). Then, the gulf widens to a chasm. The 3000 hit mountain is obviously a lot harder climb than the 500 HR molehill. It's probably the only true "lock" HOF offensive benchmark.

I think a lot of benchmark numbers should not be considered alone - you should have a combo of many or most benchmark offensive numbers to be considered. 500 HR, .300 career average, .400 OBP, 1500 RBI, 5000 TB. If you've got a lot of one, but not a lot in many others, you're probably one dimensional (i.e. Juan Gonzalez).

HR and Slugging percentage should be given diminishing weight, as well, in today's bandbox park and juiced player era.

Let's say Gary Sheffield plays 3 more full years and avoids suspension for steroid use. And let's say Big Frank does the same. These are two borderline players. Good, great, but are they hallworthy? Their stats will probably end up something like this:

Sheffield.......Frank
.295.... AVE. .300
.395... OBP.. .425
.520... SLG.. .550
2700...Hits... 2500
500.... HR.... 510
4500...TB.... 4600
1650...RBI... 1700

So should they make it in? They're just above the benchmark in the "easier" categories, and both fall short on the Hits category. What did they do for their teams? Did they ever lead others to greatness? Ummm, nope. Did they have exceptional longevity at a high level of performance? (i.e. Ripken) Did they do something that had never been done before, or were they just upper echelon representatives at their position?
Frank Thomas is not "questionable" or "borderline," he is one of the top 20 all around hitters of all time. And all the stats dictate as such. If he doesn't get in, they should close down Cooperstown.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-02-2004, 08:24 PM
Boggs won five batting titles. Name me one other player in the last forty years that one three or more other than Boggs. Gwynn - 8 Batting Titles - Will be First Ballot (& Should be)
Carew - 7 Batting Titles - 90.52% First Ballot (90% + are upper tier HOF)
Boggs - 5 Batting Titles - Will be First Ballot (& Should be)

Clemente - 4 Titles - Special inductee - Would / Should have been 1st Ballot
Madlock - 4 Titles - Dropped off ballot after 1st year
Rose - 3 Titles - Should be First Ballot when eligible
Brett - 3 Titles - 98.19% First Ballot
Yastremski - 3 Titles - 94.63% First Ballot
Oliva - 3 Titles - 47.31% - Highest Vote Total
Larry Walker - 3 Titles - Not a HOF

idseer
12-02-2004, 08:28 PM
Frank Thomas is not "questionable" or "borderline," he is one of the top 20 all around hitters of all time. And all the stats dictate as such. If he doesn't get in, they should close down Cooperstown.
you may be in for a big surprise.

ondafarm
12-02-2004, 08:56 PM
Boggs is a serious HOF candidate, I think he belongs but not first ballot.

Tony Gwynn just for being total class and a great player would be a first ballot HOF if I had any say.

I don't think any one single number should make for automatic HOF status, apart from 1000 HR, 500 wins or 4000 hits. I really think several numbers and attitude/ teammate status should all be considered.

Frank Thomas should be going in but probably not first (or second ballot.)

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 09:16 PM
I don't think any one single number should make for automatic HOF status, apart from 1000 HR, 500 wins or 4000 hits. I really think several numbers and attitude/ teammate status should all be considered.

I do have a number that I would consider - modern day - that should indicate who is deserving of HoF status.

It is my belief that if you go to 10 All Star games, you should be in the Hall. One of the things we need to remember is that the Hall has to be about how popular a player is combined with his on-the-field achievements.

That said - though some All Star players are not deserving to go to the All Star game, I challenge you to find a player that went to 9 or more All Star games that flat-out doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.

We can joke about 500 Wins or 1000 HR, but I really feel that 10 All Star game appearences is a fair gauge.

Thoughts?

pearso66
12-02-2004, 09:30 PM
I do have a number that I would consider - modern day - that should indicate who is deserving of HoF status.

It is my belief that if you go to 10 All Star games, you should be in the Hall. One of the things we need to remember is that the Hall has to be about how popular a player is combined with his on-the-field achievements.

That said - though some All Star players are not deserving to go to the All Star game, I challenge you to find a player that went to 9 or more All Star games that flat-out doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.

We can joke about 500 Wins or 1000 HR, but I really feel that 10 All Star game appearences is a fair gauge.

Thoughts?
What happens when your jobbed out of the All-star game because of another player at your position who plays for the coach who is picking reserves, even if he doesnt deserve it? *cough* Frank Thomas *cough*

Now I don't know exactly how many he made, but he should have made it last year, granted he got hurt, and he should have made it in 2000, correct me if he did, I forget. If he doesn't have 10 should he still be counted, because he probably should have been in a few more?

Foulke29
12-05-2004, 02:47 AM
What happens when your jobbed out of the All-star game because of another player at your position who plays for the coach who is picking reserves, even if he doesnt deserve it? *cough* Frank Thomas *cough*

Now I don't know exactly how many he made, but he should have made it last year, granted he got hurt, and he should have made it in 2000, correct me if he did, I forget. If he doesn't have 10 should he still be counted, because he probably should have been in a few more?
Yes - remember this is simply a number that'd be for obvious choices. I'd say if you make 10 all star games - that means one thing - you're one of the best or beloved in your league that year. Both are pretty good criteria for what a HoFer is. So, if you get ten such recognitions - I'd say it's a pretty good arguement even if you don't get the staple numbers (think Kirby Puckett).

SomebodyToldMe
12-05-2004, 03:18 AM
The only thing that worries me about Frank and the HOF is the whole DH thing. Other than that, I think he'll get in. Not first, but second ballot. That's my opinion on the matter.

I'd say right now, the people who are playing the game today, the for sure HOF candidates are ARod, Jr., Vlad, and Bonds (of course the whole roids thing is there, but I'm not gonna go into that crap).

johnny_mostil
12-05-2004, 08:09 AM
The only thing that worries me about Frank and the HOF is the whole DH thing. Other than that, I think he'll get in. Not first, but second ballot. That's my opinion on the matter.

I'd say right now, the people who are playing the game today, the for sure HOF candidates are ARod, Jr., Vlad, and Bonds (of course the whole roids thing is there, but I'm not gonna go into that crap).Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, and Barry Bonds are locks. Ivan Rodriguez is a lock.

Sam-ME is a lock, like it or not, unless something sordid comes out about his bat or drugs. Pedro is getting close to being a lock. Schilling made a great stride toward consideration, let's see how long he lasts.

A-Rod will probably get in unless he utterly tanks. Vlad Guerrero is a great player but he's years away from serious consideration. Bagwell has a decent chance, if he'd been a Yankee he'd be a lock. Gary Sheffield is getting there. Thome is getting there.

Griffey and Frank Thomas are borderline. They need one or two more good seasons to provide career "dessert". Thomas' first seven seasons were as good as any righthanded hitter ever but he has two good years in the last seven, due to injuries and Jerry Manuel, and that's going to hurt his case.

Edgar Martinez has a case but he might not get in. Derek Jeter will get massive consideration because he's a Yankee who played on a multiple-winner dynasty. Javy Lopez still has a chance.

Robbie Alomar was a lock two years ago but he's played his way into the mirk.

California Sox
12-05-2004, 11:01 AM
Drug revelations? You mean like Tim Raines sliding head first into second base to make sure he didn't break the vials of coke in his back pocket in the mid to late 80s?
I felt like I had to answer this one. Yeah, Rock Raines had a problem. So did Eckersley. They both turned their lives around and became excellent examples of athletes who can also be decent human beings. In an era where Bonds and Sham-E are first ballot locks, I think it would be nice for a good guy to get in. Won't happen, but it would be nice.

SomebodyToldMe
12-05-2004, 02:23 PM
Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, and Barry Bonds are locks. Ivan Rodriguez is a lock.

Sam-ME is a lock, like it or not, unless something sordid comes out about his bat or drugs. Pedro is getting close to being a lock. Schilling made a great stride toward consideration, let's see how long he lasts.

A-Rod will probably get in unless he utterly tanks. Vlad Guerrero is a great player but he's years away from serious consideration. Bagwell has a decent chance, if he'd been a Yankee he'd be a lock. Gary Sheffield is getting there. Thome is getting there.

Griffey and Frank Thomas are borderline. They need one or two more good seasons to provide career "dessert". Thomas' first seven seasons were as good as any righthanded hitter ever but he has two good years in the last seven, due to injuries and Jerry Manuel, and that's going to hurt his case.

Edgar Martinez has a case but he might not get in. Derek Jeter will get massive consideration because he's a Yankee who played on a multiple-winner dynasty. Javy Lopez still has a chance.

Robbie Alomar was a lock two years ago but he's played his way into the mirk.
I forgot about pitchers, my bad. All the talk about Frank made me think of hitters.

And if Jeter ever makes it, I will be extremely annoyed later in my life. The Yankee Pinstripes are the only thing that's helping him.

johnny_mostil
12-05-2004, 02:29 PM
And if Jeter ever makes it, I will be extremely annoyed later in my life. The Yankee Pinstripes are the only thing that's helping him.
Why not? He's a whole bunch better than Phil Rizzuto. If Scooter is a Hall of Fame ballplayer, they should be opening a ten-story wing to store all the plaques for the players who were better than Rizzuto. The fact that Phil is in the Hall of Fame and Ron Santo isn't is a colossal joke.