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skottyj242
12-02-2004, 09:59 AM
Hello everyone, I haven't been to this place in a long time but just thought of something and was wondering what you guys think about it. With the recent revelation that Jason Giambi used steroids and he gives back his MVP award does that mean that Big Frank steps in as default winner because he finished second in voting?

jshanahanjr
12-02-2004, 10:03 AM
It should happen, but it won't. Would Frank even want it?

Unregistered
12-02-2004, 10:05 AM
I thought it was Frank's award anyway...

fledgedrallycap
12-02-2004, 10:06 AM
Using steroids while wrong, wasn't against baseball regulations in 2000. Same goes for Caminiti who openly admitted usage and kept the MVP.

skottyj242
12-02-2004, 10:08 AM
I didn't say they were going to take it away, I was suggesting that out of shame Giambi might give it back.

voodoochile
12-02-2004, 10:41 AM
I didn't say they were going to take it away, I was suggesting that out of shame Giambi might give it back.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously, I've got tears running from my eyes right now...

Thanks, I needed a good laugh to start the day.

Haven't you learned by now? These guys are all shameless.

Still, if it happened, could Frank then go back and force JR to uninvoke the DSC and give him the $10M guaranteed until 2006?

Now that would be awesome!

Ol' No. 2
12-02-2004, 10:48 AM
I don't see MLB making players give back MVP awards, but I wonder how can they NOT do something about some of the records set that can never be approached by any mortal who is not on something? 73 HR in a season? This record has been ruined forever.

This may also put a serious crimp in Bonds' drive to pass Ruth's and Aaron's career HR mark. Not because of declining production, but because he could be spending the next few seasons in the pokey for perjury.

JRIG
12-02-2004, 10:50 AM
Ken Caminiti died as the 1998 NL MVP even though he admitted to taking steroids.

Nothing will happen.

Foulke You
12-02-2004, 11:13 AM
I thought it was Frank's award anyway...
Yup. Frank should have won that award anyway, he had the better season. However, I don't believe Giambi will be giving back or be stripped of the 2000 MVP anytime soon.

wdelaney72
12-02-2004, 11:19 AM
Yes Frank shoud have won it, but this was 4 years ago.

"Only Losers and Cowards live in the past, my friend."
- Ditka

Brian26
12-02-2004, 12:38 PM
I don't think anyone cares that much about the MVP award from 2000. IF they took it away from Giambi, that would mean they would have to award it to someone else (Frank), and how awkward would it be to give Frank an award for something that happened almost five years ago? It's creepy. I mean, it's Frank- and he'll always be good. But what if the runner up was Brady Anderson or some other one-hit, one-year wonder? That would be really weird. Let's just leave it as is and move on.

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 12:45 PM
I don't see MLB making players give back MVP awards, but I wonder how can they NOT do something about some of the records set that can never be approached by any mortal who is not on something? 73 HR in a season? This record has been ruined forever.

This may also put a serious crimp in Bonds' drive to pass Ruth's and Aaron's career HR mark. Not because of declining production, but because he could be spending the next few seasons in the pokey for perjury.
You think the 73 Homers are a shame? What about the OBP over .600?

Ol' No. 2
12-02-2004, 12:53 PM
You think the 73 Homers are a shame? What about the OBP over .600?I understand that the ridiculous number of BB has distorted any game in which he appears. But that's a relatively minor detail that no one will remember in 5 years. Almost any baseball fan can tell you how many HR Babe Ruth hit in 1927 or how many Roger Maris hit in 1961. I doubt many could tell you their OBP those years. (I sure couldn't.) The HR title is special. Perhaps more special than the batting title. And it's been permanently ruined.

jackbrohamer
12-02-2004, 01:27 PM
Using steroids while wrong, wasn't against baseball regulations in 2000.
It was also illegal, and cheating.

fledgedrallycap
12-02-2004, 01:51 PM
It was also illegal, and cheating.Only if caught. And steroid use was not classifed as cheating in 2000, there weren't even drug tests to work around.

gosox41
12-02-2004, 02:03 PM
Hello everyone, I haven't been to this place in a long time but just thought of something and was wondering what you guys think about it. With the recent revelation that Jason Giambi used steroids and he gives back his MVP award does that mean that Big Frank steps in as default winner because he finished second in voting?
Personally I think any person caught cheating should be removed from the record books (Sammy, Barry) and should not received HOF consideration. It may be far fetched and we can debate to the cows come home whether steroids actually make you hit the ball further, but cheating is cheating. And those overinflated power numbers the last 5-6 years were largely due to cheating.


Bob

voodoochile
12-02-2004, 02:30 PM
Only if caught. And steroid use was not classifed as cheating in 2000, there weren't even drug tests to work around.
No, that's a copout. It was still illegal and I bet if you surveyed MLB fans, they would tell you it was cheating.

Not punishable because you didn't get caught does not equal legal...:rolleyes:

skottyj242
12-02-2004, 02:35 PM
Steroids are illegal in the country, for professional athletes or someone like myself. If I were to get caught with steroids I can go to jail, not just get some fine. Isn't that why Pete Rose got caught?

Ol' No. 2
12-02-2004, 02:46 PM
Steroids are illegal in the country, for professional athletes or someone like myself. If I were to get caught with steroids I can go to jail, not just get some fine. Isn't that why Pete Rose got caught?Pete Rose got caught breaking baseball rules, and he's paying the price. He also got caught breaking federal laws. He went to jail for that. The two are entirely separate. If you break governmental laws, the government punishes you, not baseball. If you break baseball rules, baseball punishes you, not the government.

skottyj242
12-02-2004, 02:51 PM
What I was saying is Pete Rose got took down because his buddy was looking for a deal to aboid prison because he got caught with steroids so he ratted on Pete.

MarkEdward
12-02-2004, 03:22 PM
Personally I think any person caught cheating should be removed from the record books (Sammy, Barry) and should not received HOF consideration. It may be far fetched and we can debate to the cows come home whether steroids actually make you hit the ball further, but cheating is cheating. And those overinflated power numbers the last 5-6 years were largely due to cheating.
BobI'd assume this would apply to someone like Gaylord Perry too, right?

As for Giambi, Thomas, and the 2000 AL MVP Award, I can see the justification for giving it to Giambi. Giambi led Thomas in OPS+ (188 to 160), EQA (.373 to .343), VORP (106 to 94), and I think Win Shares too, but I don't have the WS numbers in front of me. Add in the fact that Jason Giambi contributed with his glove (124 games played at 1B) while Thomas spent most of his time at DH (30 games played at first), and it's really hard to see how Thomas was the better player in 2000. All in all, neither player should have won the award.

Frank Thomas was probably the fifth-best player in the AL that year. Carlos Delgado had Thomas beat each aforementioned offensive category (182 OPS+, .366 EQA, 114 VORP) and he also spent most of his time at first base (162 games at 1B) instead of DH'ing. Then there's Alex Rodriguez. Though his offensive numbers weren't as impressive as either Delgado or Giambi (167 OPS+, 111 VORP, .346 EQA), he played Gold Glove-caliber defense at short. Finally, there's Pedro Martinez. In 2000, Martinez had arguably the best pitching season ever. He threw 217 innings. He struck out 284 while walking 32. He finished with a WHIP just above .7. His ERA+ of 285 is good for second all-time in a season, behind Tim Keefe (294 ERA+ in only 105 innings for Troy in 1880). Thomas had a very good year, but it wasn't very close to these four players' performances.

If I was voting, here would be my ballot:
1. Pedro
2. Rodriguez
3. Giambi
4. Delgado
5. Thomas

idseer
12-02-2004, 03:32 PM
Finally, there's Pedro Martinez. In 2000, Martinez had arguably the best pitching season ever. He threw 217 innings. He struck out 284 while walking 32. He finished with a WHIP just above .7. His ERA+ of 285 is good for second all-time in a season, behind Tim Keefe (294 ERA+ in only 105 innings for Troy in 1880).

gotta disagree with you there. steve carlton 1972 had the best year ever.

longshot7
12-02-2004, 03:36 PM
It was also illegal, and cheating.
It is NOT illegal. Immoral, yes. But not illegal. Doctors prescribe steroids everyday. I've had them.

voodoochile
12-02-2004, 03:56 PM
It is NOT illegal. Immoral, yes. But not illegal. Doctors prescribe steroids everyday. I've had them.
Not to make you bigger and stronger they don't. Not so you can go from a 250K/year bench rider to a $15M/year perrenial AS they don't.

If any of these guys had a perscription for their roids, they would have produced it LONG ago and given the reasons why they were taking them.

Also, you probably weren't taking muscle building steroids, but anti-inflamatory steroids. Methyl Prednizone (sp?) is a steroid, but it won't do a damned thing to make you bigger or stronger. That goes double for stuff that helps your back muscles relax and stuff that makes your lungs better able to fight off infection and asthma.

The difference is anabolyc (sp?) versus carco (sp?) steroids. The first aren't used much except for people with degenerative conditions (like degenerative hip conditions - these are commonly given to pets with dip displaysia (sp?)) the second are common for all sorts of ailments.

maurice
12-02-2004, 03:57 PM
It is most certainly illegal to possess prescription drugs without a prescription. That's how Rush Limbaugh got into trouble.

MarkEdward
12-02-2004, 03:58 PM
gotta disagree with you there. steve carlton 1972 had the best year ever.It probably depends on how much value you put into innings pitched. Carlton pitched something like 130 more innings in '72 than Perdo in '00. That is, to be fair, a pretty big number. However, Pedro has Carlton beat in rate stats- HR rate is more or less the same, but Martinez struck out three more hitters and walked one less per nine innings. Plus, he did this in a higher run-scoring environment. The AL's average ERA for the 2000 season was 4.97. The NL's average ERA for the '72 season was 3.59. That explains the 100 point difference in ERA+ between Pedro and Carlton.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-02-2004, 06:14 PM
It probably depends on how much value you put into innings pitched. Carlton pitched something like 130 more innings in '72 than Perdo in '00. That is, to be fair, a pretty big number. However, Pedro has Carlton beat in rate stats- HR rate is more or less the same, but Martinez struck out three more hitters and walked one less per nine innings. Plus, he did this in a higher run-scoring environment. The AL's average ERA for the 2000 season was 4.97. The NL's average ERA for the '72 season was 3.59. That explains the 100 point difference in ERA+ between Pedro and Carlton.
Carlton 1972 - 27-10, 1.72 ERA, 346.3 IP, 257 H, 87 BB, 310 K (DERA 2.42 - Adjusted for all time)

Martinez 2000 - 18-6, 1.74 ERA, 217 IP, 128 H, 32 BB, 284 K (DERA 1.29 - AAAT)

Gibson 1968 - 22-9, 1.12 ERA, 304.7 IP, 198 H, 62 BB, 268 K (DERA 2.19)

Koufax 1966 - 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 323 IP, 241 H, 77 BB, 317 K (DERA 2.55)

Mirror mirror on the wall, who was the nastiest (in the past 40 years) of them all?

Pedro Martinez. By far.

MarkEdward
12-02-2004, 08:41 PM
Carlton 1972 - 27-10, 1.72 ERA, 346.3 IP, 257 H, 87 BB, 310 K (DERA 2.42 - Adjusted for all time)

Martinez 2000 - 18-6, 1.74 ERA, 217 IP, 128 H, 32 BB, 284 K (DERA 1.29 - AAAT)

Gibson 1968 - 22-9, 1.12 ERA, 304.7 IP, 198 H, 62 BB, 268 K (DERA 2.19)

Koufax 1966 - 27-9, 1.73 ERA, 323 IP, 241 H, 77 BB, 317 K (DERA 2.55)

Mirror mirror on the wall, who was the nastiest (in the past 40 years) of them all?

Pedro Martinez. By far.Thanks for the all-time DERA numbers. I was going to give their quick DIPS numbers, but I forgot the formula and didn't bother to look it up.

I've not been following Prospectus the past few months- is DERA calculated like DIPS and FIPS?

RKMeibalane
12-02-2004, 08:47 PM
Ken Caminiti died as the 1998 NL MVP even though he admitted to taking steroids.

Nothing will happen.
1996. The "Evil One" won the award in '98.

RKMeibalane
12-02-2004, 08:53 PM
No, that's a copout. It was still illegal and I bet if you surveyed MLB fans, they would tell you it was cheating.

Not punishable because you didn't get caught does not equal legal...:rolleyes:
Agreed. I've heard the same argument in the past from classmates who cheated on exams. What they didn't realize is that if something is wrong, it's wrong regardless of who finds out about it. The steroid situation in baseball is no different.

RKMeibalane
12-02-2004, 08:57 PM
Frank Thomas was probably the fifth-best player in the AL that year.
Once again... the Most Valuable Player Award is exactly that, the award given to the player who meant the most to his team's success. It is not necessarily given to the best player in the league. Frank Thomas played on a team that won more than ninety games. Delgado did not. Pedro Martinez did not. The MVP Award has been given to a player on a last-place team twice in baseball history (Andre Dawson and Alex Rodriguez), largely because most people believe that a player must be part of a winning team in order to deserve MVP consideration, even though he may not have had the year statistically.

I am sensing anti-Thomas bias here.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-02-2004, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the all-time DERA numbers. I was going to give their quick DIPS numbers, but I forgot the formula and didn't bother to look it up.

I've not been following Prospectus the past few months- is DERA calculated like DIPS and FIPS?DERA - Defense-adjusted ERA. Not to be confused with Voros McCracken's Defense-Neutral ERA. Based on the PRAA, DERA is intended to be a defense-independent version of the NRA. As with that statistic, 4.50 is average. Note that if DERA is higher than NRA, you can safely assume he pitched in front of an above-average defense.

NRA - National Rifle Association - America's Premier defender of Our Bill of Rights :)

NRA - In the baseball world - Normalized Runs Allowed

PRAA - Pitcher-only runs above average. The difference between this and RAA is that RAA is really a total defense statistic, and PRAA tries to isolate the pitching component from the fielding portion. It relies on the pitching/fielding breakdown being run for the team, league, and individual. The individual pitching + defense total is compared to a league average pitcher + team average defense, and the difference is win-adjusted.

Adjusted for all time - Neutral ballpark / rule change (ie. height of mound / DH/ etc.) stats which one can use to evaluate performances occurring in different eras based on league averages, etc.

WhiteSoxFan84
12-03-2004, 01:22 AM
I thought about this as soon as the story broke. Now that Jason Giambi has admitted to taking steroids, should he be stripped of his records and awards? Following up on that, should Frank Thomas be given the 2000 MVP Award somehow, someway? For those who don't remember, Frank came up a close second to Giambi in the 2000 AL MVP race. Frank's numbers were great and very similar to the winner's, but Giambi's were a tadbit better.

Remember, on the poll you are answering whether Frank should be given the MVP, not if Giambi should be stripped of the award.

In my opinion, I believe no records or awards will be taken away. This is not the Olympics. You may see asterisks, but that's as far as the record books will be changed. Also, in my heart, Frank was the 2000 AL MVP and now more than ever I believe it.

Hey, at least one thing's for sure, White Sox Baseball: Steroid Free. Wait.... somebody check up on that Juan Uribe character...


This is when White Sox baseball wasn't steroid free....
:canseco

What happened to his tell all book anyway?

Chicago83
12-03-2004, 02:07 AM
I think something really needs to be done about this steroid thing and I have a feeling nothing will. With all the money the MLB will make off Bonds I just don't think they will do anything about it until years later. They will just blame a few scapegoats like Giambi and ignore the major issue. Its sucks for a guy like Frank (Assuming he has never used 'roids) who might be one of the best hitters of the 90's, to have his career overshadows by guys pumped on roids hitting 70 HR's.
I think Frank deserves the 2000 MVP, I doubt he will get it though, and really at this point it doesn't matter that much. The whole issue just makes me mad and if nothing is done about it I think that it will ruin baseball for a lot of people.

MUsoxfan
12-03-2004, 02:40 AM
What Giambi did in 2000 was within the rules of Major League Baseball. It was certainly morally wrong, but not wrong within the rulebook of the league. Frank will be the 2000 MVP in my heart just as Hank Aaron will always be the homerun king until some other legit contender breaks the record.

MarkEdward
12-03-2004, 04:11 AM
Once again... the Most Valuable Player Award is exactly that, the award given to the player who meant the most to his team's success. It is not necessarily given to the best player in the league.I'd agree that the MVP award's voting rules are very subjective.

Frank Thomas played on a team that won more than ninety games.As did Giambi.

Delgado did not. Pedro Martinez did not.Both Delgado and Pedro played in tougher divisions, as did Giambi and Rodriguez.

The MVP Award has been given to a player on a last-place team twice in baseball history (Andre Dawson and Alex Rodriguez), largely because most people believe that a player must be part of a winning team in order to deserve MVP consideration, even though he may not have had the year statistically.So you're saying Rodriguez should be punished for the crappy play from his teammates Royce Clayton, Darren Oliver, and Esteban Loaiza?

Let's forget Delgado, ARod, and Giambi for a second. Pedro Martinez had (arguably) the greatest pitching season ever. I guess one can argue that since a starting pitcher isn't an everyday player that he shouldn't be considered for the MVP. It's valid, and sometimes I may agree with that thinking. However, Pedro's 2000 season was just so tremendous that it's extremely hard to overlook.

Either way, I don't like punishing MVP candidates for their teammates' flaws.

I am sensing anti-Thomas bias here.In over two years here, I don't think I've ever criticized Thomas.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 08:59 AM
If Jerry Reinsdorf is the "sportsman" his defenders claim him to be, he would right the obvious injustice and give Frank Thomas the contract he had with the Sox BEFORE Giambi beat him for the 2000 MVP title.

It was losing that award that allowed Reinsdorf to invoke the diminished skills clause. Reinsdorf has saved a boodle of money because of Giambi's cheating, and every penny of it came right out of the pocket of Frank Thomas.

That's not fair.
:(:

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt

idseer
12-03-2004, 09:18 AM
It probably depends on how much value you put into innings pitched. Carlton pitched something like 130 more innings in '72 than Perdo in '00. That is, to be fair, a pretty big number. However, Pedro has Carlton beat in rate stats- HR rate is more or less the same, but Martinez struck out three more hitters and walked one less per nine innings. Plus, he did this in a higher run-scoring environment. The AL's average ERA for the 2000 season was 4.97. The NL's average ERA for the '72 season was 3.59. That explains the 100 point difference in ERA+ between Pedro and Carlton.
the difference is that pedro won 18 games for a team that finished with a 85-77 record.
carlton won 27 games for a team that finished with a 59-97 record.

i don't care what you do with the numbers. carlton's was the greatest pitching season's performance of all time.

RKMeibalane
12-03-2004, 09:22 AM
So you're saying Rodriguez should be punished for the crappy play from his teammates Royce Clayton, Darren Oliver, and Esteban Loaiza?
Alex Rodriguez was still playing in Seattle during the 2000 season.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 09:41 AM
The REAL question is how Giambi's use of steroids affected Frank Thomas. I think the overwhelming evidence is there to suggest Giambi doesn't come close to approaching the offensive numbers of Frank Thomas in 2000 without using steroids. Giambi won the award because of using steroids.

Now, what to do about it?

As a fan I can say what MLB ought to do about it, but this is very different than what practical action MLB could or should do about it. These are two very different standards we're trying to discuss here.

One thing is blatantly obvious. Giambi's steroid use has cost Frank Thomas a bundle of money because of Reinsdorf invoking the diminished skills clause. The Sox have what ought to be a 3-time MVP on their roster! That's instant hall-of-famer, folks.

If we get away from the relatively silly matter of what action MLB ought to take regarding Giambi, can't we agree Reinsdorf has unfairly benefitted from this sordid mess -- and he at least ought to set things straight with the best ballplayer in the franchise's entire history?
:(:

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt

idseer
12-03-2004, 09:53 AM
The REAL question is how Giambi's use of steroids affected Frank Thomas. I think the overwhelming evidence is there to suggest Giambi doesn't come close to approaching the offensive numbers of Frank Thomas in 2000 without using steroids. Giambi won the award because of using steroids.

Now, what to do about it?

As a fan I can say what MLB ought to do about it, but this is very different than what practical action MLB could or should do about it. These are two very different standards we're trying to discuss here.

One thing is blatantly obvious. Giambi's steroid use has cost Frank Thomas a bundle of money because of Reinsdorf invoking the diminished skills clause. The Sox have what ought to be a 3-time MVP on their roster! That's instant hall-of-famer, folks.

If we get away from the relatively silly matter of what action MLB ought to take regarding Giambi, can't we agree Reinsdorf has unfairly benefitted from this sordid mess -- and he at least ought to set things straight with the best ballplayer in the franchise's entire history?
:(:

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt
totally agree.
i wonder if frank can now sue giambi? :smile:

jackbrohamer
12-03-2004, 11:58 AM
can't we agree Reinsdorf has unfairly benefitted from this sordid mess -- and he at least ought to set things straight with the best ballplayer in the franchise's entire history?
:(:That would certainly be honest of Reinsdorf to do. I also think it would be great PR for the team, and would probably make Thomas feel a lot better about going through his recent public humiliations over his contract.

Guess that means there is no way in hell Reinsdorf will do it.....:angry:

DumpJerry
12-03-2004, 12:20 PM
You know, Roger Maris had an asterisk next to his name all those years and he did nothing wrong except challenge a sacred record. These jerks cheat to break records and obtain awards and nothing will happen???:angry: :angry: :angry:


Here is my proposed solution: A scarlet letter "C" for cheater next to their names in the records books. That way their #$%&^ precious names will remain in the books, but tainted.:D:

Flight #24
12-03-2004, 01:00 PM
The REAL question is how Giambi's use of steroids affected Frank Thomas. I think the overwhelming evidence is there to suggest Giambi doesn't come close to approaching the offensive numbers of Frank Thomas in 2000 without using steroids. Giambi won the award because of using steroids.

Now, what to do about it?

As a fan I can say what MLB ought to do about it, but this is very different than what practical action MLB could or should do about it. These are two very different standards we're trying to discuss here.

One thing is blatantly obvious. Giambi's steroid use has cost Frank Thomas a bundle of money because of Reinsdorf invoking the diminished skills clause. The Sox have what ought to be a 3-time MVP on their roster! That's instant hall-of-famer, folks.

If we get away from the relatively silly matter of what action MLB ought to take regarding Giambi, can't we agree Reinsdorf has unfairly benefitted from this sordid mess -- and he at least ought to set things straight with the best ballplayer in the franchise's entire history?
:(:

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt
That would certainly be fair, honorable, etc. However, it would mean that the "committed" payroll for 05 goes up, leaving less room to play with at the top......

Still, I'd bet when this is all said and done that Frank will end up with some sort of long-term deal with the Sox as "compensation", even if that deal includes some sort of role with the org after he retires. Given JR's history with JWill, Sheri Berto, Tim Floyd, etc I would not be surprised by that at all.

Flight #24
12-03-2004, 01:19 PM
Rick Reilly on ESPN Radio (Dan Patrick) - "Who finished 2d to these guys in MVP voting? Someone needs to go apologize to whoever finished 2d to Caminiti in 1996 and Giambi in 2000".

:hurt

"You know where to find me"

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 01:57 PM
Can somebody please research the names of all the major league ballplayers who won the MVP award as many as three times in their career.

I would looooove to see this list and find out how many were 1st ballot HOFers.

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt

idseer
12-03-2004, 02:09 PM
al
mantle, berra, dimaggio and foxx

nl
bonds, schmidt, campanella and musial.

don't know about hof balloting.

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 02:26 PM
Can somebody please research the names of all the major league ballplayers who won the MVP award as many as three times in their career.

I would looooove to see this list and find out how many were 1st ballot HOFers.

The REAL 2000 A.L. MVP -----> :hurt3X MVP's



Yogi Berra
Roy Campanella
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Mickey Mantle
Stan Musial
Mike Schmidt

All won 3 MVP. All 7 are in the HOF. Only Mantle, Musial and Schmidt made it on the first ballot.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 02:57 PM
3X MVP's

Yogi Berra
Roy Campanella
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Mickey Mantle
Stan Musial
Mike Schmidt

All won 3 MVP. All 7 are in the HOF. Only Mantle, Musial and Schmidt made it on the first ballot. And of course Bonds has won the MVP award SEVEN FREAKING TIMES! ... more than twice as much as every other great ballplayer who ever played the game, including every single HOFer... simply UNREAL... literally UNREAL...
:mad:

This is the best reason I've seen yet for banning steroids from the game of baseball. What a complete mockery of the sport Bonds has made the Hall of Fame...
:angry::angry::angry:

Yeah, but Barry was just trying to keep Ken Caminiti (R.I.P.) from winning any more MVP's.... see the slippery slope of immoral behavior playing out here? Everybody is doing it... or at least they ought to be doing it...

Frank ought to be a lock for hall of fame. He deserves to be a first ballot winner, too, based on what happened to him in 2000. The "Lumbering Ox" piece of **** beat him by four lousy 1st place votes...

Jason Giambi is a ****ing jerk. He deserves waaaay more boos from Sox Fans than even that unconvicted turd, Scammin' Shammy So-so.

:angry:

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 03:03 PM
And of course Bonds has won the MVP award SEVEN FREAKING TIMES! ... more than twice as much as every other great ballplayer who ever played the game, including every single HOFer... simply UNREAL... literally UNREAL...
:mad:

This is the best reason I've seen yet for banning steroids from the game of baseball. What a complete mockery of the sport Bonds has made the Hall of Fame...
:angry::angry::angry:

Yeah, but Barry was just trying to keep Ken Caminiti from winning any more MVP's.... see the slippery slope of immoral behavior playing out here? Everybody is doing it... or at least they ought to be doing it...

Frank ought to be a lock for hall of fame. He deserves to be a first ballot winner, too, based on what happened to him in 2000. "Lumbering Ox" piece of **** beat him by four lousy 1st place votes...

Jason Giambi is a ****ing jerk. He deserves waaaay more boos from Sox Fans than even that unconvicted turd, Scammin' Shammy So-so.

:angry:
To be fair, Bonds won it three times before he started juicing (we think). The fact is, he was a pretty good player BEFORE. When you take a MVP caliber player and pump him up on 'roids, is it any surprise that he's the 8th wonder of the world?

At this point, I don't know whether I'm :angry: or :whiner: .

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 03:08 PM
To be fair, Bonds won it three times before he started juicing (we think). The fact is, he was a pretty good player BEFORE. When you take a MVP caliber player and pump him up on 'roids, is it any surprise that he's the 8th wonder of the world?
I agree. I'll give Bonds his first three MVP's; 1990, 1992, and 1993. It's the four that came afterward that make a complete joke out of the sport of baseball, its record book, and its hall of fame, too. Just one immoral ballplayer meting out his own self-serving bit of rough justice... keeping the Ken Caminiti would-be heroes of the game from stealing the limelight Barry felt entitled to receive... a pox on all of them!

:angry::angry::angry:

RKMeibalane
12-03-2004, 03:10 PM
And of course Bonds has won the MVP award SEVEN FREAKING TIMES! ... more than twice as much as every other great ballplayer who ever played the game, including every single HOFer... simply UNREAL... literally UNREAL...
:mad:

This is the best reason I've seen yet for banning steroids from the game of baseball. What a complete mockery of the sport Bonds has made the Hall of Fame...
:angry::angry::angry:

Yeah, but Barry was just trying to keep Ken Caminiti (R.I.P.) from winning any more MVP's.... see the slippery slope of immoral behavior playing out here? Everybody is doing it... or at least they ought to be doing it...

Frank ought to be a lock for hall of fame. He deserves to be a first ballot winner, too, based on what happened to him in 2000. The "Lumbering Ox" piece of **** beat him by four lousy 1st place votes...

Jason Giambi is a ****ing jerk. He deserves waaaay more boos from Sox Fans than even that unconvicted turd, Scammin' Shammy So-so.

:angry:

If you ask me, PHG, I think Frank should be a lock for the HOF simply because he didn't cheat, even as his peers decided to break every rule in the book and then lie about it for years on end. I can't wait to see the final list of players who have tested positive for steroid use, and also to see the list of players who didn't cheat but still put up good numbers. I would imagine that the second list is far shorter than the first, but guess what? Frank's name will be on that list.

In contrast to what have said over the years, I think Frank Thomas is a leader. He's not a clubhouse leader. He's not the type to say, "Everyone follow me," but he is a leader in the sense that he has played the game the way it's supposed to be played. It means a lot to me as a Sox fan to know that this franchise's greatest player remains one the few men who understands what real baseball is all about.

Here's to you, Big Frank! :gulp:

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 03:17 PM
I agree. I'll give Bonds his first three MVP's; 1990, 1992, and 1993. It's the four that came afterward that make a complete joke out of the sport of baseball, its record book, and its hall of fame, too. Just one immoral ballplayer meting out his own self-serving bit of rough justice... keeping the Ken Caminiti would-be heroes of the game from stealing the limelight Barry felt entitled to receive... a pox on all of them!

:angry::angry::angry:The really pathetic part is with 3 MVP's he would have been a lock for the HOF anyway. Is he really that insecure that he has to be the star EVERY FRIKKIN' YEAR? There are two things I want to see happen to Bonds:

1. He gets suspended and never gets the chance to break Ruth's career record.

2. He is so thoroughly disgraced that he NEVER gets into the HOF.

FarWestChicago
12-03-2004, 03:17 PM
I'd assume this would apply to someone like Gaylord Perry too, right?

As for Giambi, Thomas, and the 2000 AL MVP Award, I can see the justification for giving it to Giambi. Giambi led Thomas in OPS+ (188 to 160), EQA (.373 to .343), VORP (106 to 94), and I think Win Shares too, but I don't have the WS numbers in front of me. Add in the fact that Jason Giambi contributed with his glove (124 games played at 1B) while Thomas spent most of his time at DH (30 games played at first), and it's really hard to see how Thomas was the better player in 2000. All in all, neither player should have won the award.

Frank Thomas was probably the fifth-best player in the AL that year. Carlos Delgado had Thomas beat each aforementioned offensive category (182 OPS+, .366 EQA, 114 VORP) and he also spent most of his time at first base (162 games at 1B) instead of DH'ing. Then there's Alex Rodriguez. Though his offensive numbers weren't as impressive as either Delgado or Giambi (167 OPS+, 111 VORP, .346 EQA), he played Gold Glove-caliber defense at short. Finally, there's Pedro Martinez. In 2000, Martinez had arguably the best pitching season ever. He threw 217 innings. He struck out 284 while walking 32. He finished with a WHIP just above .7. His ERA+ of 285 is good for second all-time in a season, behind Tim Keefe (294 ERA+ in only 105 innings for Troy in 1880). Thomas had a very good year, but it wasn't very close to these four players' performances.

If I was voting, here would be my ballot:
1. Pedro
2. Rodriguez
3. Giambi
4. Delgado
5. Thomashttp://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/hijacked.gif http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/hijacked.gif http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/hijacked.gif

Damn, dude. You statheads are relentless. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Baby Fisk
12-03-2004, 03:18 PM
If you ask me, PHG, I think Frank should be a lock for the HOF simply because he didn't cheat, even as his peers decided to break every rule in the book and then lie about it for years on end. I can't wait to see the final list of players who have tested positive for steroid use, and also to see the list of players who didn't cheat but still put up good numbers. I would imagine that the second list is far shorter than the first, but guess what? Frank's name will be on that list.

In contrast to what have said over the years, I think Frank Thomas is a leader. He's not a clubhouse leader. He's not the type to say, "Everyone follow me," but he is a leader in the sense that he has played the game the way it's supposed to be played. It means a lot to me as a Sox fan to know that this franchise's greatest player remains one the few men who understands what real baseball is all about.

Here's to you, Big Frank! :gulp:Well put. :nod:

RKMeibalane
12-03-2004, 04:10 PM
Well put. :nod:
Thanks! And by the way, I thought I would inform you that a new player has entered this steroid-investigation game. Bonds, Giambi, Sosa, and the rest of the cheaters are in real trouble now...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/darth.jpg

*Breathing*

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2004, 05:00 PM
Rick Reilly on ESPN Radio (Dan Patrick) - "Who finished 2d to these guys in MVP voting? Someone needs to go apologize to whoever finished 2d to Caminiti in 1996 and Giambi in 2000".

:hurt

"You know where to find me" Frank Thomas has a beef at least 10-times greater than Mike Piazza. Caminiti swept the 1996 MVP voting, while Giambi barely beat out Thomas.

1996 N.L. MVP voting
1 Ken Caminiti (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/caminke01.shtml) 392 points, 28 first-place votes.
2 Mike Piazza (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/piazzmi01.shtml) 237 points, 0 first-place votes.


2000 A.L. MVP voting
1 Jason Giambi (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/giambja01.shtml) 317 points, 14 first-place votes.
2 Frank Thomas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml) 285 points, 10 first-place votes.
(The other 4 first-place votes went to Alex Rodriguez.)


Without steroids, there is no doubt Frank is a 3-time MVP winner.

Jason Giambi is a ****ing jerk.
:angry::angry::angry:

santo=dorf
12-03-2004, 05:52 PM
http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/hijacked.gif http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/hijacked.gif http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/hijacked.gif

Damn, dude. You statheads are relentless. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
He's a FOBB too. Shocking.

FarWestChicago
12-03-2004, 06:00 PM
He's a FOBB too. Shocking.How true. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/gulp.gif

WhiteSoxFan84
12-05-2004, 01:22 AM
God willing Bonds starts getting some extremely serious injuries because he is forced off of the 'roids and starts developing some weird ass illness. Nothing fatal, just serious enough to end his career.

The guy is not only arrogant and a cheater, he's also racist. Don't ask me how I know, I have my reasons and facts. All I have to say to support that statement is when he said something to the likes of, "I just want to break Babe Ruth's records so you can all forget his name". Too bad he's chasing Henry Aaron for the record and not the Babe. It's also REAL bad that Bonds can't pitch because Ruth also was a great pitcher.

As for Thomas not being a cheater, he's the cleanest guy in the game. Most of you will remember Thomas was pushing for random testing and wanted it ASAP.

Deadguy
12-05-2004, 08:03 PM
The really pathetic part is with 3 MVP's he would have been a lock for the HOF anyway. Is he really that insecure that he has to be the star EVERY FRIKKIN' YEAR? There are two things I want to see happen to Bonds:

1. He gets suspended and never gets the chance to break Ruth's career record.

2. He is so thoroughly disgraced that he NEVER gets into the HOF. I honestly think the reasoning behind his use of steroids was:

1. He was sick and tired of all the publicity that Mcgwire and Sosa were getting. He was the best player in the game, and among the casual fans, he was widely regarded as inferior to these two. He wanted his moment in the spotlight.

2. He was in his mid to late 30s, and wanted to milk one gigantic contract out of the Giants. He had seen numerous players around him receive 100+ million dollar contracts, and he wanted his share as well.

3. To give him an extra push towards a World Series ring.

Barroids is the greatest player of our generation, but nearly every year, he is voted as the player least wanted as a teammate. If you see replays of him hitting his 500th homerun, just look at how many of his teammates came out to congradulate him.

Long live classy guys like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays, who were decent guys as well as great player.

bc2k
12-06-2004, 05:02 PM
Interesting poll numbers once I added my "yes" vote. 35 people, including me, voted "yes," and another 35 people voted "no, but in our eyes he was the 2000 MVP." Interesting because of Thomas's uniform number.

I voted that Thomas should be awarded the 2000 MVP because Giambi admitted cheating, but would like to point out that I already thought Thomas was the true 2000 MVP before Giambi admitted cheating.