PDA

View Full Version : White Sox fate decided by Big Hurt


Chicago83
12-01-2004, 04:34 AM
The way I see it we have a great offense in this white sox team assuming one thing, the health of Frank Thomas. Last season we had one of the top three offenses, even with Magglio gone, up until about a week or two after Frank went down and we hit that horrible august slump. With Rowand, Lee, Frank, and Konerko slugging away in USC we had a potent offense that kept us in first despite the fact we didn't have a fifth starter. When Frank went down our offense soon followed him. You can't underestimate the presence of Thomas when he is healthy for a season. You can expect a .300 average, 35 HR, and of course a .400 OB%.

Assuming we acquire another quality starter and add a lead-off hitter then I think the only thing stopping us from winning the central is an injured Frank Thomas. I just don't think we can outslug our opponents when we don't have the 30+ HR and 100 BB that Frank will give us.

mrwag
12-01-2004, 08:03 AM
The evidence is sure there. Look at the last several years in Franks career. If he was healthy, we won. When he wasn't healthy, the team couldn't do it without him.

idseer
12-01-2004, 09:22 AM
i doubt you'll ever see frank touch .300 for a season again.

SoxFanTillDeath
12-01-2004, 10:03 AM
i doubt you'll ever see frank touch .300 for a season again.

Sadly, I have to agree, but I'd love to see him do it. I love Frank (in a perfectly normal sense of the word of course). The stadium just explodes when he hits one out. Even when he comes up to bat everyone is yelling like crazy. I hope he comes back 100% (crossing fingers).

Lip Man 1
12-01-2004, 01:10 PM
As our foot doctor friend from Florida has explained on these boards, this type of injury takes months to heal. Given the fact that Frank will not be ready for the start of spring training, I don't see how he'll be ready for the start of the season.

This puts the Sox in a very difficult situation....do they trade Konerko or Lee knowing that Thomas is questionable and until he actually goes out and plays for a period of time they have no idea what to expect out of him.

Lip

munchman33
12-01-2004, 01:38 PM
Lip - I think that's why Carl's still with the team. He'll fill in for Frank early, then become a really nice bench player.

mrwag
12-01-2004, 03:42 PM
Lip - I think that's why Carl's still with the team. He'll fill in for Frank early, then become a really nice bench player.Shouldn't that be in teal?:smile:

Sorry, but I haven't seen much out of Carl to think there's anyway he can carry any of Franks weight.

Chicago83
12-01-2004, 04:22 PM
Give Frank a full healthy season(which isn't very likely.) I think he can still put up around .290. If I remember correctly last year he was batting around there until he hit that slump in July, where he started striking out because he was hurt and should have stopped playing right away. Even if he only hits .270 you can always expect a OB% around .400 which is what the sox really missed last year.

Carl will in no way fill in for Frank, very few players could, but I agree that if Frank is healthy Carl will be a valuable bench player, of course thats assuming he's not our starting RF.

Jerome
12-01-2004, 04:26 PM
What? His defense sucks, and he has no speed. We can't win with him.

Chicago83
12-01-2004, 04:45 PM
Defense??? He's a DH! Speed??? We don't need speed in USC.
Frank' will give you power and patience, what we need to win in a slugger's park.

MRKARNO
12-01-2004, 04:46 PM
Give Frank a full healthy season(which isn't very likely.) I think he can still put up around .290. If I remember correctly last year he was batting around there until he hit that slump in July, where he started striking out because he was hurt and should have stopped playing right away. Even if he only hits .270 you can always expect a OB% around .400 which is what the sox really missed last year.

Carl will in no way fill in for Frank, very few players could, but I agree that if Frank is healthy Carl will be a valuable bench player, of course thats assuming he's not our starting RF.
I agree totally with everything you said. If he is totally healthy when back (or whenever for that matter), I actually wouldnt be surprised if we see another .300 season and a .440 OBP. He probably would have done this last year were he healthy. The Sox will go nowhere without a healthy Frank Thomas and they can go anywhere with a healthy Frank. It's not a coincidence that Frank's last season with a 1.000+ OPS (2000) was the last time we made the postseason and the other time we got close to making the playoffs, he posted a .952 OPS.

Jerome
12-01-2004, 04:58 PM
Defense??? He's a DH! Speed??? We don't need speed in USC.
Frank' will give you power and patience, what we need to win in a slugger's park.


Whoa Nelly. Calm down. As you spend more time here at WSI you will see that everything in teal is sarcastic. I am poking fun at the WSIers who believe the reason we sucked last year was our lack of speed and defense.

Patience in our hitters is what I believe that we need more than anything.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-01-2004, 07:02 PM
Whoa Nelly. Calm down. As you spend more time here at WSI you will see that everything in teal is sarcastic. I am poking fun at the WSIers who believe the reason we sucked last year was our lack of speed and defense.

But that is what Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen said we needed to get from point N to point O.

RKMeibalane
12-01-2004, 08:08 PM
i doubt you'll ever see frank touch .300 for a season again.
To be honest, though, I'm not sure if that matters. As long as his other numbers are good, there's no reason why a sub-.300 batting average would hurt this team.

Chicago83
12-02-2004, 02:54 AM
Whoa Nelly. Calm down. As you spend more time here at WSI you will see that everything in teal is sarcastic. I am poking fun at the WSIers who believe the reason we sucked last year was our lack of speed and defense.

Patience in our hitters is what I believe that we need more than anything. My fault, I had no idea about the teal. Sorry about that, I see we actually agree on the point. Speed and defense has no place in the Cell. We need power and patience. We should look to Boston as an example for our team, not Minnesota, as some have suggested.

Chicago83
12-02-2004, 04:14 AM
I agree totally with everything you said. If he is totally healthy when back (or whenever for that matter), I actually wouldnt be surprised if we see another .300 season and a .440 OBP. He probably would have done this last year were he healthy. The Sox will go nowhere without a healthy Frank Thomas and they can go anywhere with a healthy Frank. It's not a coincidence that Frank's last season with a 1.000+ OPS (2000) was the last time we made the postseason and the other time we got close to making the playoffs, he posted a .952 OPS.
It's really unfortunate that Frank went down last year because he was headed for a big year. I'm not sure how serious his injury really is, but we need him to come back with the same kind of year if we are to win. I think our offense is potent enough with a healthy Frank, even without Magglio. However without Frank I see us hitting those offensive slumps again, like August last season when we lost the division in about two weeks.

With a healthy Frank and a legitimate fifth starter there is no reason why we can't win the central, despite holes we may have in the bullpen and IF. Even with Detroit making some acquisitions this is still a very easy division to win.

GoGoOzzie
12-02-2004, 12:27 PM
It's really unfortunate that Frank went down last year because he was headed for a big year. I'm not sure how serious his injury really is, but we need him to come back with the same kind of year if we are to win. I think our offense is potent enough with a healthy Frank, even without Magglio. However without Frank I see us hitting those offensive slumps again, like August last season when we lost the division in about two weeks.

With a healthy Frank and a legitimate fifth starter there is no reason why we can't win the central, despite holes we may have in the bullpen and IF. Even with Detroit making some acquisitions this is still a very easy division to win.
For what its worth, my sister met him a few weeks ago in Vegas. still on crutches, but the cast is off in another couple of weeks. he said that hes going to be playing next year, and that they wont go anywhere until they have a bigger payroll.

stillz
12-02-2004, 12:54 PM
If there's one thing Thomas has proven, it's his ability to work hard. I believe he'll have several more productive seasons.. perhaps he won't hit .300, but he will get his walks and drive in 100+ ...if he's healthy.

And real quick - some fellas here at my office argue against Thomas as a future hall of famer. Am I blinded by my fandom, or is this not a certainty if he can simply put together 2-3 more solid years (keep the career average over .300 and hit 500 dingers)? I know he's a DH, but last time I checked the DH was a real position for AL players.

Ol' No. 2
12-02-2004, 01:24 PM
If there's one thing Thomas has proven, it's his ability to work hard. I believe he'll have several more productive seasons.. perhaps he won't hit .300, but he will get his walks and drive in 100+ ...if he's healthy.

And real quick - some fellas here at my office argue against Thomas as a future hall of famer. Am I blinded by my fandom, or is this not a certainty if he can simply put together 2-3 more solid years (keep the career average over .300 and hit 500 dingers)? I know he's a DH, but last time I checked the DH was a real position for AL players.There's always been a bias against DH's, rightly or wrongly. IMO, if he makes 500 HR, he's a lock. If not, he's still a good bet, simply because he put up such awesome numbers in his early years. When you do something that only a very few players have ever done, and all those are immortals, I'd say you have the Fame part down.

Foulke29
12-02-2004, 01:47 PM
i doubt you'll ever see frank touch .300 for a season again.
You know, the .300 avg is not as imporant as the .400 obp...

Deadguy
12-02-2004, 03:33 PM
You know, the .300 avg is not as imporant as the .400 obp...
True. He's basically turned into the type of hitter that Harmon Killebrew was for most of his career (mediocre average, high power, draws lots of walks), and that's not necessarilly a bad thing.

Chicago83
12-02-2004, 04:09 PM
There's always been a bias against DH's, rightly or wrongly. IMO, if he makes 500 HR, he's a lock. If not, he's still a good bet, simply because he put up such awesome numbers in his early years. When you do something that only a very few players have ever done, and all those are immortals, I'd say you have the Fame part down.
I don't see how people can say Frank won't make it to the HOF because he is a DH. If you are going to make a DH rule then you can't punish people for playing the position. I mean if there had never been a DH rule Frank could have easily played 1B his whole career and not been too much of a liability.

I think Frank is a lock, even though he is playing in the age of 'roids and 60 HR. As long as he plays two more healthy seasons there is no reason why he should not make it to the HOF.

SouthSide_HitMen
12-02-2004, 06:16 PM
I don't see how people can say Frank won't make it to the HOF because he is a DH. If you are going to make a DH rule then you can't punish people for playing the position. I mean if there had never been a DH rule Frank could have easily played 1B his whole career and not been too much of a liability.

I think Frank is a lock, even though he is playing in the age of 'roids and 60 HR. As long as he plays two more healthy seasons there is no reason why he should not make it to the HOF.
Recent HOF Inducties

2004 Paul Molitor (129.1 WARP3) .306 BA, .369 OBP, .448 SLG
1183 Games DH, 1500 (Inf / Out) 10835 AB, 3319 H, 234 HR, 1307 RBI, 504 SB

2003 Eddie Murray (127.8 WARP 3) .287 BA, .359 OBP, .476 SLG
2422 Games 1B / O, 605 DH, 11336 AB, 3255 H, 504 HR, 1917 RBI, 110 SB

Frank Thomas (114.2 WARP 3) .308 BA, .429 OBP, .567 SLG
972 Games 1B, 953 DH, 6851 AB, 2113 H, 436 HR, 1439 RBI, 32 SB

I think voters will want to see 500 HRs (possible if healthy) or 3000 H (improbable) to be a first ballot HOFer. I think with a 4 - 5 more years of (.270 BA, .400 OBP, .500 SLG) will get him in at somepoint. He has a great 12 year run (first 12 years). He will need to hang on til close to 2010 at a productive pace to make it. If he retired today, I don't think he makes it.

Chicago83
12-03-2004, 02:17 AM
I think voters will want to see 500 HRs (possible if healthy) or 3000 H (improbable) to be a first ballot HOFer. I think with a 4 - 5 more years of (.270 BA, .400 OBP, .500 SLG) will get him in at somepoint. He has a great 12 year run (first 12 years). He will need to hang on til close to 2010 at a productive pace to make it. If he retired today, I don't think he makes it.
I agree that if he retired today I don't think he would make it, but I think all he really needs to do is reach 500 HR that could happen in '06 if he really stays healthy and at least by '08. I don't think there is anyway he will play very productively until '10, I just can't see a guy the size of Frank being productive at over age 40.

doublem23
12-03-2004, 04:44 AM
He should be a lock already.

AnkleSox
12-03-2004, 05:26 AM
Most of Frank's best offensive years were in the early and mid 90s, when he was the primary first basemen. His good numbers as DH in the later years are just icing on the cake. In his prime, there were very few hitters that were as dangerous as he was, and although it seems so long ago, his prime lasted quite a while.

CarlosMay'sThumb
12-03-2004, 09:20 AM
I don't see how people can say Frank won't make it to the HOF because he is a DH. If you are going to make a DH rule then you can't punish people for playing the position. I mean if there had never been a DH rule Frank could have easily played 1B his whole career and not been too much of a liability.

I think Frank is a lock, even though he is playing in the age of 'roids and 60 HR. As long as he plays two more healthy seasons there is no reason why he should not make it to the HOF.
Nobody is punishing Frank for being a DH, but the fact is that he is less than half a ballplayer - unless you think that running, throwing and defense are not part of being a baseball player. The fact is that Frank sucked at all three of those aspects of the complete ballplayer from Day 1. It's unfair to "punish" the complete players who have had slightly worse offensive numbers but had to actually play 9 innings.

As for his return this year - forget about a full season. Ozzie said today in the Sun-Times that Frank will not start the season. It'll be June before Frank is playing.

idseer
12-03-2004, 09:40 AM
To be honest, though, I'm not sure if that matters. As long as his other numbers are good, there's no reason why a sub-.300 batting average would hurt this team.
You know, the .300 avg is not as important as the .400 obp...
never said it was. i was simply saying i doubt thomas will ever hit .300 again.

Deadguy
12-03-2004, 11:54 AM
Nobody is punishing Frank for being a DH, but the fact is that he is less than half a ballplayer - unless you think that running, throwing and defense are not part of being a baseball player. The fact is that Frank sucked at all three of those aspects of the complete ballplayer from Day 1. It's unfair to "punish" the complete players who have had slightly worse offensive numbers but had to actually play 9 innings.
Baseball is half runs scored, half runs allowed. By your logic, pitchers should be punished, since they contribute nearly nothing in the runs scored department? Calling him less than half of a ball player is just plain ignorant, and underscores his value. Buy a clue.

JKryl
12-03-2004, 12:10 PM
As our foot doctor friend from Florida has explained on these boards, this type of injury takes months to heal. Given the fact that Frank will not be ready for the start of spring training, I don't see how he'll be ready for the start of the season.

Lip
This burned my butt when he waited until the end of the season for the surgery. He could have gone in months before hand, and there would have been no problem with his rehab. Either Frank just doesn't care, or someone really dropped the ball on this one. A late start is completely avoidable with a little forethought on his part. Of course this assumes the doctors gave him the right information.

stillz
12-03-2004, 01:42 PM
It does seem that Frank can act pretty indignant and self-righteous re: his physical condition. Granted, the man has always put in work to stay strong, but he seems to have misstepped when it comes to acknowledging the extent of his injuries. This one and the bone spur in '98 come to mind. Gotta blame the trainers and doctors too, but when I heard that he was STILL on crutches, I was dismayed. KW needs to get another big bopper or we could be in trouble.

stillz
12-03-2004, 01:43 PM
It does seem that Frank can act pretty indignant and self-righteous re: his physical condition. Granted, the man has always put in work to stay strong, but he seems to have misstepped when it comes to acknowledging the extent of his injuries. This one and the bone spur in '98 come to mind. Gotta blame the trainers and doctors too, but when I heard that he was STILL on crutches, I was dismayed. Can't they just diagnose quickly and get on with a prodecure? There's a disconnect somewhere.

KW needs to get another big bopper.

stillz
12-03-2004, 01:44 PM
Whoops. Versions 1 and 2 for your pleasure.

Lip Man 1
12-03-2004, 01:55 PM
According to Beckett (the Florida doctor) this was the type of injury where they had to wait. If I remember correctly it is because surgery is considered the last option, the most dramatic way to fix this and it doesn't always work out 100%.

I asked the same question to him myself.

And while we are on the subject, one of the papers today quoted Ozzie as saying that he can't count on Thomas for the start of the season because of the nature of the injury and the long layoff.

Lip

gosox41
12-03-2004, 02:28 PM
This burned my butt when he waited until the end of the season for the surgery. He could have gone in months before hand, and there would have been no problem with his rehab. Either Frank just doesn't care, or someone really dropped the ball on this one. A late start is completely avoidable with a little forethought on his part. Of course this assumes the doctors gave him the right information.
Maybe the doctors told him it would heal on it's own and surgery should be a later option down the road. I'm sure Frank got plent of advice from more then one doctor and probably his agent.


I thought I read somewhere that if Frank did have surgery it would be more career threatening then if he let it heal on its own (assuming it was able to heale on its own.)



Bob

Ol' No. 2
12-03-2004, 02:31 PM
According to Beckett (the Florida doctor) this was the type of injury where they had to wait. If I remember correctly it is because surgery is considered the last option, the most dramatic way to fix this and it doesn't always work out 100%.

I asked the same question to him myself.

And while we are on the subject, one of the papers today quoted Ozzie as saying that he can't count on Thomas for the start of the season because of the nature of the injury and the long layoff.

LipOzzie was on the hot stove report last night on ESPN1000 and that's just what he said. In fact, he was even more pessimistic than that. It sounded like he was going to plan as if Frank was not coming back at all, which is probably the prudent way to approach it.