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Chicago83
11-29-2004, 07:31 PM
Is Ozzie ball the right way for this team to go? Is changing this team to a more defensive/pitching orientated team really a good idea? I've heard Ozzie or KW say that pitching and defense wins championships but is this really true. I mean look at the Red Sox, who cruised to a WS with piss-poor defense led by power hitting and were only challenged by the Yankees another power based team. We play in the AL and in the league's most friendly HR hitter's park, is it really a good idea to get players who can lay down bunts and make catches when the ball is flying out of the cell? I think we should look toward the other sox(as much as I dislike them) as inspiration for our team. Base the team on power hitting and power pitching(K's) thats the only way were gonna win here in the cell and the only way we are going to ever challenge the AL giants like Boston and New York.

ondafarm
11-29-2004, 07:35 PM
Good pitching beats good hitting anytime, but especially in the playoffs. Look at how the playoff series were won, by scoring single runs and then when the opposition pitching made mistakes punishing them. How many twenty homer hitters did the Red Sox have? Fewer than the White Sox. It's because a twenty homer guy is wasting outs swinging for the fences.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2004, 08:07 PM
Is Ozzie ball the right way for this team to go? Is changing this team to a more defensive/pitching orientated team really a good idea? I've heard Ozzie or KW say that pitching and defense wins championships but is this really true. I mean look at the Red Sox, who cruised to a WS with piss-poor defense led by power hitting and were only challenged by the Yankees another power based team. We play in the AL and in the league's most friendly HR hitter's park, is it really a good idea to get players who can lay down bunts and make catches when the ball is flying out of the cell? I think we should look toward the other sox(as much as I dislike them) as inspiration for our team. Base the team on power hitting and power pitching(K's) thats the only way were gonna win here in the cell and the only way we are going to ever challenge the AL giants like Boston and New York.I don't think Kenny wants to completely change the team into a completely small-ball makeup. Look at what he's actually said. He understands that they need to have a solid middle of the order. But hitting solo home runs doesn't get it done. They need high-OBP guys. And you can never have too much pitching. The Red Sox had a powerful lineup, but they also had pitching. You're not going anywhere without it.

Tragg
11-29-2004, 09:29 PM
We need some OBP guys badly, especially a lead off hitter

I didn't see it discussed anywhere, but couldn't we give Pitt a better package for Kendall than the junk Oakland delivered? We could have resigned Mike Jackson or gotten Kroch back and sent him to Pitt and that would have taken care of the Arthur Rhodes half of the deal.

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2004, 09:33 PM
We need some OBP guys badly, especially a lead off hitter

I didn't see it discussed anywhere, but couldn't we give Pitt a better package for Kendall than the junk Oakland delivered? We could have resigned Mike Jackson or gotten Kroch back and sent him to Pitt and that would have taken care of the Arthur Rhodes half of the deal.Pittsburgh paid very little of Kendall's salary which is why they got him for so little in trade. I think the Sox were looking to get the Pirates to pick up a lot more, and would have had to give up more in trade. But IMO the real stopper is that the trade would have probably involved Garland, and Kenny is holding him back for another deal, probably RJ or Vazquez.

Tragg
11-29-2004, 09:37 PM
Pittsburgh paid very little of Kendall's salary which is why they got him for so little in trade. I think the Sox were looking to get the Pirates to pick up a lot more, and would have had to give up more in trade. But IMO the real stopper is that the trade would have probably involved Garland, and Kenny is holding him back for another deal, probably RJ or Vazquez.
I thought (maybe hoped) that we were going to spend more money for these offseason deals;
Would we trade Konerko for Kendall? If so, take Kendall's salary, give Pitt some similar junk that they got, and trade Konerko for some hole fillers and young players and the effect is the same. No money difference so it would free us to sign Perez or Clement. The total effect would add 1 big salary and fill a lot of holes.
OR, put simply, how can we fill our severe leadoff hitter need without taking on salary?

Ol' No. 2
11-29-2004, 09:44 PM
I thought (maybe hoped) that we were going to spend more money for these offseason deals;
Would we trade Konerko for Kendall? If so, take Kendall's salary, give Pitt some similar junk that they got, and trade Konerko for some hole fillers and young players and the effect is the same. No money difference so it would free us to sign Perez or Clement. The total effect would add 1 big salary and fill a lot of holes.
OR, put simply, how can we fill our severe leadoff hitter need without taking on salary?It's not even money by a long shot. Kendall's contract is pretty back loaded and he's due some pretty serious money over the next few (I think 3 more) years.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-29-2004, 11:46 PM
We need some OBP guys badly, especially a lead off hitter

I didn't see it discussed anywhere, but couldn't we give Pitt a better package for Kendall than the junk Oakland delivered? We could have resigned Mike Jackson or gotten Kroch back and sent him to Pitt and that would have taken care of the Arthur Rhodes half of the deal.Kenny Williams doesn't send junk, he acquires it.

See: Everett / Alomar (twice), Contreras, Koch, Ritchie, etc.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-29-2004, 11:51 PM
It's not even money by a long shot. Kendall's contract is pretty back loaded and he's due some pretty serious money over the next few (I think 3 more) years.
3 Years / $37 million left (including 2008 option). Rhodes was due $6 mil & Redman $9.2 mil so the A's are paying a net $22 mil (or $7 mil per season).

Chicago83
11-29-2004, 11:51 PM
I'm not trying to say that we don't need pitching, because we obviously do, but I was just trying to point out the fact that we are not going to win games with speed and defense when we play in the cell and in the AL. The Twins can do it playing in the dome but look how succesful they have been in the playoffs. We need to look to a team like Bostom, that won a WS through sluggling and power pitching. What I am really trying to say is we need to add more power and sign a pitcher who can strike people out. Don't trade Konerko, instead sign a #3 starter and an outfielder like Hidalgo or Dye. Defense should not be what we look for in a player this offseason, but instead his power and patience.

FightingBillini
11-30-2004, 12:33 AM
I'm not trying to say that we don't need pitching, because we obviously do, but I was just trying to point out the fact that we are not going to win games with speed and defense when we play in the cell and in the AL. The Twins can do it playing in the dome but look how succesful they have been in the playoffs. We need to look to a team like Bostom, that won a WS through sluggling and power pitching. What I am really trying to say is we need to add more power and sign a pitcher who can strike people out. Don't trade Konerko, instead sign a #3 starter and an outfielder like Hidalgo or Dye. Defense should not be what we look for in a player this offseason, but instead his power and patience.
The Twins haven't been that successful in the playoffs for a few reasons. Most importantly, they are very overrated. About the best thing I can think to say about the Twins is that they are fundamentally sound (which I wish I could say about the Sox :angry: ). Hunter is the second most overrated player in baseball (behind only Jeter). He does play great D, but he doesn't hit against anyone but us. They are good defensively, and but they don't have any special players other than Santana. Other than him, their starting pitching is decent, and their better than average bullpen looked like a bunch of hall of famers against ours. They won the division by default 3 straight years. I may be bitter, and my views are skewed, but I will say that the Sox have had more talent than the Twins these last few years. The biggest difference is not defense. The biggest difference is that the TWINS DON'T HAVE ANY BIG GLARING HOLES. The Sox do. Going position by position with last year's teams (with a healthy Maggs), I think the Sox had better players than the Twins everywhere but 3B, SS, and C (I reason that Rowand was better than Hunter because while his D was slightly less, he was a much better hitter). The Twins won because they had 5 major league starters, and they had major leaguers in the bullpen. If we had a .500 pitcher as our number 5 the last two years, we would have won the division. If we didn't have "Gas Can" Jackson, a half a year of Koch, and two minor leaguers in the pen last year, we might have won the division. The Twins also have pretty good depth. While they don't have a bench full of all-stars, they have mostly mediocre major leaguers on the bench, which is more than we can say.

As for Boston, they had great pitching. Their defense was awesome down the stretch, and they have good hitters. Their strikeout machine (Bellhorn) actually got on base and hit like 60 points higher than ours (Valentin). They didn't have a weak hitter in the lineup. The White Sox lead the majors in homeruns, and hit 20 more than Boston. Boston had a great leadoff hitter. Most importantly, their power hitters had higher averages than ours. The Red Sox team average was .282, and the White Sox was .268. Enough said.

Ol' No. 2
11-30-2004, 09:06 AM
I'm not trying to say that we don't need pitching, because we obviously do, but I was just trying to point out the fact that we are not going to win games with speed and defense when we play in the cell and in the AL. The Twins can do it playing in the dome but look how succesful they have been in the playoffs. We need to look to a team like Bostom, that won a WS through sluggling and power pitching. What I am really trying to say is we need to add more power and sign a pitcher who can strike people out. Don't trade Konerko, instead sign a #3 starter and an outfielder like Hidalgo or Dye. Defense should not be what we look for in a player this offseason, but instead his power and patience.The Sox HAVE had that type of offense for several years. How's that working out so far?

maurice
11-30-2004, 01:47 PM
Keep in mind that Boston's most significant deals before their WS win were designed to improve their pitching (Schilling and Foulke) and defense (Cabrerra and Menscrewshski for Garciapara).