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Blueprint1
11-26-2004, 03:18 PM
All the trades that Kenny Williams has made have made this team worse. If After the 2000 season Kenny would not have made any trades and just signed home grown talent this team would be in a better position right now. We would have a 5th starter in Josh Fogg. This off season everyone is talking about making another trade that would involve Paul Konerko or Carlos Lee. If we were to trade Lee or Konerko do you guys really think we have enough hitting? The second half of last season our offense was less than spectacular and without Lee or Konerko it could only get worse. These 2 for 1 and 3 for 1 trades Kenny likes to make have depleted our farm system and at the same time made our team worse. I will have to admit that a few of the trades were good and the jury is still out on the Garcia deal but the Foulke and Ritchie deals would get most GM's fired.

jabrch
11-26-2004, 03:20 PM
All the trades that Kenny Williams has made have made this team worse.


Cheap and Stupid... Why even bother playing the games...

pearso66
11-26-2004, 03:28 PM
All the trades that Kenny Williams has made have made this team worse. If After the 2000 season Kenny would not have made any trades and just signed home grown talent this team would be in a better position right now. We would have a 5th starter in Josh Fogg. This off season everyone is talking about making another trade that would involve Paul Konerko or Carlos Lee. If we were to trade Lee or Konerko do you guys really think we have enough hitting? The second half of last season our offense was less than spectacular and without Lee or Konerko it could only get worse. These 2 for 1 and 3 for 1 trades Kenny likes to make have depleted our farm system and at the same time made our team worse. I will have to admit that a few of the trades were good and the jury is still out on the Garcia deal but the Foulke and Ritchie deals would get most GM's fired.
To think we would be better with no trades is crazy. I'd much rather have Garcia and Contrerez than Fogg and Wells. But that's just me. Sure we gave up a lot to get Ritchie, but its not like any of those guys is spectacular. Wells is the best of the bunch, but that doesnt say much. We got Colon 2 years ago, for 3 players, Leifer, Osuna and Biddle. All 3 are spare parts, we don't need any. We got Garcia, sure for Olivo, Reed and Morse, But those guys "could" be good, Garcia is. and lets not go near the Loaiza for Contrerez. I can't say this team would be better off with no trades. I just cant make myself do it, at least with a straight face

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2004, 03:41 PM
I hate to admit this, but with 20/20 hindsight it is plain obvious the 2000 Sox got awfully lucky with our pitching staff. They basically played well in April and June and salted away the division crown before anybody else in the division knew what hit them. Baldwin, Parque, and Eldred were all cooked as major league pitchers by the time Williams became GM.

KW gets a pass from me for spending the last four seasons grasping at straws for improving the rotation and bullpen. He didn't start out with very much and he hasn't done much to improve the staff with the (meager) resouces he has been allowed to work with.

OTOH, KW's amateurish meddling in the clubhouse and utterly stupid method for identifying position player needs makes him a GM in the lower-half of the league. We might do worse to fire him, but we definitely could do better -- assuming the guy upstairs would pay for somebody better. However it is VERY DEBATABLE he would open his wallet for such a purpose.

:reinsy
"Pay for somebody with previous experience? I... I... I feel faint..."

:tongue:

Jjav829
11-26-2004, 03:44 PM
All the trades that Kenny Williams has made have made this team worse. If After the 2000 season Kenny would not have made any trades and just signed home grown talent this team would be in a better position right now. We would have a 5th starter in Josh Fogg. This off season everyone is talking about making another trade that would involve Paul Konerko or Carlos Lee. If we were to trade Lee or Konerko do you guys really think we have enough hitting? The second half of last season our offense was less than spectacular and without Lee or Konerko it could only get worse. These 2 for 1 and 3 for 1 trades Kenny likes to make have depleted our farm system and at the same time made our team worse. I will have to admit that a few of the trades were good and the jury is still out on the Garcia deal but the Foulke and Ritchie deals would get most GM's fired.I can't believe people still bring up the name Josh Fogg. What part of his 4.64 ERA in a pitcher friendly NL park makes you think he would even be a capable 5th starter in an extreme hitter friendly AL park? Fogg blows. Why do people bring up his name as someone we should have kept? Do these people even pay attention to what he has done, or are they just pretending that he's something more than a marginal major league pitcher? He's no better than Jason Grilli. Give it up.

fquaye149
11-26-2004, 03:47 PM
I can't believe people still bring up the name Josh Fogg. What part of his 4.64 ERA in a pitcher friendly NL park makes you think he would even be a capable 5th starter in an extreme hitter friendly AL park? Fogg blows. Why do people bring up his name as someone we should have kept? Do these people even pay attention to what he has done, or are they just pretending that he's something more than a marginal major league pitcher? He's no better than Jason Grilli. Give it up.

there's some people, if they don't know, you can't tell them.

the red flag should have been the first mention of josh fogg as anything more than nothing.

wdelaney72
11-26-2004, 03:50 PM
I know it's slow this time of year, but

:threadsucks

soxtalker
11-26-2004, 04:09 PM
I can't believe people still bring up the name Josh Fogg. What part of his 4.64 ERA in a pitcher friendly NL park makes you think he would even be a capable 5th starter in an extreme hitter friendly AL park? Fogg blows. Why do people bring up his name as someone we should have kept? Do these people even pay attention to what he has done, or are they just pretending that he's something more than a marginal major league pitcher? He's no better than Jason Grilli. Give it up.

I think that the reason that Fogg's name keeps resurfacing is that the trade in question was a particularly bad one -- possibly the worst of KW's stay here. Even if Fogg was as mediocre as you and many others contend, we would have been much better off with him and the other players we traded than Ritchie. And Todd was an anchor around our rotation for awhile.

I've never been much of a KW fan, but I can't agree with Blueprint's assertion that all of KW's trades have made the team worse. I don't think that he's done terribly well, though his acquisition of Colon was masterful. My impression is that he's done ok in minor trades, where little is being risked on either side.

Kenny likes to roll the dice and go for a big win. That's perhaps the major reason I don't care for him. But it is very popular with lots of fans - probably a significant majority of those on this board. The Garcia trade strikes me as a good example of this. Although there is heated debate on both sides, it could eventually end up being viewed as either a major success or dismal failure. I'd guess one of those extremes is more likely than somewhere in the middle.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-26-2004, 08:15 PM
[QUOTE=soxtalker] I don't think that he's (KW) done terribly well, though his acquisition of Colon was masterful. My impression is that he's done ok in minor trades, where little is being risked on either side.[QUOTE]

Well, Bud Selig's free player team (Expos) will soon have a real owner so there goes Kenny's last chance for decent trades. That is, unless they keep new GM Bowden around :)

Slow Mike
11-27-2004, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE=Blueprint1] the jury is still out on the Garcia deal QUOTE]

What are you waiting for....??? Garcia unproven?? Garcia is hands down a top 30 pitcher (an ace), maybe top 15. Reed is a prospect, same as Crede and Borchard were. And Olivo is a below average major league catcher. Those two players for an ace. WOW. What a bad deal, we got burned (sarcasm). I guess we'll have to get RJ, Pedro, and Pavano to make everyone happy, and then KW will be considered a good GM.

jabrch
11-27-2004, 10:12 AM
I guess we'll have to get RJ, Pedro, and Pavano to make everyone happy, and then KW will be considered a good GM.


I'd bet you that some people would still find something to bitch about.

fquaye149
11-27-2004, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=Blueprint1] the jury is still out on the Garcia deal QUOTE]

What are you waiting for....??? Garcia unproven?? Garcia is hands down a top 30 pitcher (an ace), maybe top 15. Reed is a prospect, same as Crede and Borchard were. And Olivo is a below average major league catcher. Those two players for an ace. WOW. What a bad deal, we got burned (sarcasm). I guess we'll have to get RJ, Pedro, and Pavano to make everyone happy, and then KW will be considered a good GM.

no ****.

if we had traded carlos lee and olivo for garcia it would have been a good trade...

instead we traded olivo and reed...who might someday have as high a vorp as carlos...might maybe maybe maybe have a higher, or might not.

argh.

pearso66
11-27-2004, 12:58 PM
I can't believe people still bring up the name Josh Fogg. What part of his 4.64 ERA in a pitcher friendly NL park makes you think he would even be a capable 5th starter in an extreme hitter friendly AL park? Fogg blows. Why do people bring up his name as someone we should have kept? Do these people even pay attention to what he has done, or are they just pretending that he's something more than a marginal major league pitcher? He's no better than Jason Grilli. Give it up.

The reason i think people bring up Fogg, is the brief month when the season started right after the trade, he did well. They can't let that fall out of their head, no matter what he has done afterwords. Same with Kip Wells, he is nothing special, yet some people after the trade, make him out to be the next great thing. Did that trade hurt us, at the time, i would say yes, because we gave up 3 maybe capable players for 1 possibly capable player. in the long run, it hurt a little, but Lowe isnt playing anymore (that i know of), and Fogg and Wells wouldnt make the top 4 in our rotation, and would only be good for the bullpen, where wells would still probably wet himself unless it was mop up duty

Blueprint1
11-27-2004, 01:56 PM
The reason i think people bring up Fogg, is the brief month when the season started right after the trade, he did well. They can't let that fall out of their head, no matter what he has done afterwords. Same with Kip Wells, he is nothing special, yet some people after the trade, make him out to be the next great thing. Did that trade hurt us, at the time, i would say yes, because we gave up 3 maybe capable players for 1 possibly capable player. in the long run, it hurt a little, but Lowe isnt playing anymore (that i know of), and Fogg and Wells wouldnt make the top 4 in our rotation, and would only be good for the bullpen, where wells would still probably wet himself unless it was mop up duty
So it was a good trade? We got nothing for it. We also traded for the same two guys twice. We also are stuck with Carl's contract this season. This is also the same GM that traded for the wrong guy in the James Baldwin deal if anything says stupid its that.

pearso66
11-27-2004, 02:26 PM
So it was a good trade? We got nothing for it. We also traded for the same two guys twice. We also are stuck with Carl's contract this season. This is also the same GM that traded for the wrong guy in the James Baldwin deal if anything says stupid its that.

I didn't say it was a good trade, I said it wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be. I don't mind trading for Carl twice, If we had signed him after last year, we'd have him for probably twice what he is making. I don't agree with trading for Alomar twice, but neither time really hurt us. While I don't agree with all the trades, I can't honestly say we'd be better off with 0 trades from KW

guillen4life13
11-27-2004, 05:18 PM
So it was a good trade? We got nothing for it. We also traded for the same two guys twice. We also are stuck with Carl's contract this season. This is also the same GM that traded for the wrong guy in the James Baldwin deal if anything says stupid its that.
Oh please! Stop b*tching. People like you would blame Jerry or Kenny if your stock values went down.

Kenny has done everything he could given the room he has to work with. Reinsdorf is the problem, not Kenny. Kenny is dedicated, and he's pulled off some awesome deals. I pity you if you can only find it in yourself to look at the bad (which is heavily outweighed by the good).

Evidence:
-Most of us were jumping with joy when the David Wells trade was made. I thought it was a great trade at the time--getting a guy coming off a 20 game season, and at that point was known as a workhorse. Who would have known he would have found himself on the DL? Hindsight is 20/20...unfortunately hindsight comes after something has happened, not before.
-the next offseason, he pulled the Ritchie trade. I wasn't too happy about it, but it's not like Lowe, Wells, or Fogg are stellar players, is it? We didn't get fleeced, but we marginally lost out.
-Marte for Guerrier. If you think that this was a bad trade, then you need to examine yourself. Guerrier hasn't done ANYTHING, and Marte is arguably our best arm in the pen.
-Kenny Lofton. Let's face it. Singleton was mediocre at best, and hasn't done a damn thing since he left. Lofton was on fire for the first month of the season, and quieted down afterwards, but he was a proven leadoff hitter (or so it was thought when he came).
-Harris for Singleton. Harris still has a chance to be good. It's slim, but it exists. Singleton is crap. Sox won on this one.
-Bradford for Olivo. Bradford was crap while on the Sox. Olivo was a promising catching prospect (something the Sox needed pretty badly). Hindsight is 20/20, but Olivo was starting to blossom before he got traded, so we could have won on this, but it's not really applicable anymore.
-Foulke for Koch. Ok. I agree, we got fleeced, both financially and performancewise. This is one bad out of many good though, so your assertion is still false.
-Bartolo Colon trade. If you think we lost on this, again, I suggest that you go to a therapist for a psychological examination. The Sox won on this trade, hands down. The only player lost in that deal who has done anything at all has been Rocky Biddle. Colon was a proven #1 starter (and the highest sought after FA pitcher in that year's batch).
-D'Angelo Jimenez for Alex Fernandez and Humberto Quintero. Well... Fernandez and Quintero haven't made it to the majors yet, and D'Angelo, while sometimes a bit lackadazical (sp), carried the team for a while that season. Sox win.
-Jimenez for Dunn. I concede... they lost out on this one, but it was because there was no room for him with Alomar taking over 2B.
-Roberto Alomar pt. 1 for Royce Ring, Edwin Almonte and Andrew Salvo. Jury is still out on this one--Ring hasn't made it to the majors yet, has he?
-Carl Everett (pt. 1) for Frankie Francisco, Josh Rupe, and Anthony Webster. Jury is still out.
-Garcia for Olivo, Reed, and Morse. I guess you could say the jury is out, but I think that the subsequent long term deal with Garcia made us the winners in this. Olivo, I think, it going to be a solid everyday catcher, but no all-star. Maybe a Gold Glove caliber player, but not an all-star. Reed and Morse: we'll see.
-Everett pt II. for Rauch+Majewski. Jury out, but it's pretty unlikely this will go in the Expos'/Nat'l's favor.
-Alomar pt. II. I don't know who the PTBNL was, so I can't really judge.
-Shingo. 'nuff said.
-not resigning Bartolo: the man wasn't worth 15 mil/year.

I think I've made my case.

jabrch
11-27-2004, 06:01 PM
So it was a good trade? We got nothing for it. We also traded for the same two guys twice. We also are stuck with Carl's contract this season. This is also the same GM that traded for the wrong guy in the James Baldwin deal if anything says stupid its that.

Refresh my memory - what did we give up for Carl or Robbie - either time? A grand total of one Frank Francisco. The rest are either junk, or available as rule 5 guys if we want them.