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SouthSide_HitMen
11-24-2004, 08:13 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3185148

Is it too early to pick the Tigers (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71592) to win the AL Central in 2005? Probably. But a team that improved from 43 wins in 2003 to 72 last season is again spending big in a low-budget division. If the Tigers (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71592) aren't quite ready for contention, they should be soon.


The Twins (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71595), three-time defending champions in the Central, are retooling again. The Indians (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71591) are preparing for life without shortstop Omar Vizquel (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/85082). The White Sox (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71590) have reached 87 wins only once in the past 10 seasons, and the Royals (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71593) are trying to climb out from 104 losses.


Later

Spending money won't guarantee success, not when the Twins (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71595) are one of the game's most resourceful franchises and the Indians (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71591) are on the rise. But scouts like the Tigers (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71592)' nucleus of young starting pitchers -- Jeremy Bonderman (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/140067), Mike Maroth (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/104696), Nate Robertson (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/105727) and Wil Ledezma.

(White Sox not even mentioned as a contenderpost 2005).

Maybe Jerry will have Bud Selig put the Sox in a new division (Friends of Jerry Division) with Arizona, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee. Has 24 years of cheap and stupid finally caught up with the Sox?

dickallen15
11-24-2004, 08:33 PM
The Tigers are the 2005 version of the Royals. A lot of so called experts will be picking them to win. Their pitching will get worse. Rodriguez will be injured, Guillen will come back down to reality, and they will lose if not 100 games, very close to it. Percival is a huge waste of money.

CubKilla
11-24-2004, 08:47 PM
The Tigers are the 2005 version of the Royals. A lot of so called experts will be picking them to win. Their pitching will get worse. Rodriguez will be injured, Guillen will come back down to reality, and they will lose if not 100 games, very close to it. Percival is a huge waste of money.
At least Detroit has been active in the FA market.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-24-2004, 09:07 PM
The Tigers are the 2005 version of the Royals. A lot of so called experts will be picking them to win. Their pitching will get worse. Rodriguez will be injured, Guillen will come back down to reality, and they will lose if not 100 games, very close to it. Percival is a huge waste of money.
I don't agree about the pitching - they do have good young pitching. Agree about Percival (he is on the decline) but could see their side as patching holes before they develop (Urbina - kidnapping).

I wish the Sox were more proactive instead of being reactive / nonactive.

jabrch
11-24-2004, 09:08 PM
Whoa is me....the season is over. Fox Sports said so...

Lip Man 1
11-24-2004, 09:12 PM
The truth hurts eh Jabrch?

The Sox ARE an afterthought nationally and perhaps more tragically in their own home city. But hey as long as Uncle Jerry's wallet is healthy nothing else matters right?

Lip

SomebodyToldMe
11-24-2004, 09:32 PM
The truth hurts eh Jabrch?

The Sox ARE an afterthought...perhaps more tragically in their own home city.
Lip
:reinsy
"Well DUH! This IS a Cubs town, remember?"

A. Cavatica
11-24-2004, 09:58 PM
I also see things getting worse instead of better. We have question marks at owner, GM, manager, catcher, second, short, third, right, DH, three rotation spots and four bullpen spots. And two players who I didn't count as question marks (Konerko, Lee) are streaky.

jabrch
11-24-2004, 10:11 PM
Lets just not play the season. I see no way to POSSIBLY enjoy another baseball season.

idseer
11-25-2004, 12:02 AM
every sox fan should be able to see that unless there's an unexpected change in ownership's methods we will be much worse this coming year. the sox have to struggle just to be as good a team next year as they were last. other teams are improving while we try to maintain the status quo which means 3rd or 4th place.

we're at least 3 years away from being serious again. and THAT is if the sox AIM for '07! if they spend stupidly (RJ or some other big name 40 year old) we'll be looking at '10 or the sox's ownership demise before having anything to get excited about again.

jabrch
11-25-2004, 01:30 AM
every sox fan should be able to see that unless there's an unexpected change in ownership's methods we will be much worse this coming year. the sox have to struggle just to be as good a team next year as they were last. other teams are improving while we try to maintain the status quo which means 3rd or 4th place.

we're at least 3 years away from being serious again. and THAT is if the sox AIM for '07! if they spend stupidly (RJ or some other big name 40 year old) we'll be looking at '10 or the sox's ownership demise before having anything to get excited about again.


Let's just not play em, take 81 losses and call it a successful season?

voodoochile
11-25-2004, 09:47 AM
Let's just not play em, take 81 losses and call it a successful season?
:reinsy
"81? Eight-y-one?!??!??! 81!??!???!????! Haven't I taught you fans anything? It's not successful unless losses are no more than 80 and that's only IF there are no leftover raindates."

idseer
11-25-2004, 10:24 AM
Let's just not play em, take 81 losses and call it a successful season?
to be quite honest ... i WOULD fast forward over this coming season if i could.

johnny_mostil
11-25-2004, 10:54 AM
At least Detroit has been active in the FA market.
Active and stupid does not beat inactive. The Nats have been incredibly active and have made their team terrible. I'd rather see the Sox sit on their hands than sign aging closers who've lost their fastballs or can't stay healthy or both.

johnny_mostil
11-25-2004, 11:07 AM
every sox fan should be able to see that unless there's an unexpected change in ownership's methods we will be much worse this coming year. the sox have to struggle just to be as good a team next year as they were last. other teams are improving while we try to maintain the status quo which means 3rd or 4th place.

I'm as negative as anybody but this is nuts. What do you want "ownership" to do? 90% of the free agent signings so far have been borderline idiotic moves that actually made their teams worse. Most of the players on the market will not earn their contracts because most free agents don't. By the time most players are free agents, they are in their thirties and ready to decline. If you look at the FAs who actually left the White Sox, virtually all to fans' cries of calamity, very few have actually earned their contracts. Ray Durham? Charles Johnson? Alex Fernandez? Jack McDowell? Albert Belle? One flop after another. Agents sell major league free agents as proven commodities who can deliver known performance. The truth is, there is virtually no such thing, because everybody eventually gets old, gets hurt, gets lazy, or some combination of the three, and because MLB FAs are mostly guys over the middle of their careers, most of the free agents are money thrown away.

"Ownership" with the White Sox is basically a PR problem. The baseball problem, and it is fundamental, is that the scouting department and the GM's office have failed to create a farm system that produces good young major league players at a rate to stay ahead of the rest of the division. Money just can't solve that.

As for the upcoming season, don't panic... yet... As Hal Vickery keeps pointing out, the team won 83 games mostly without Magglio, half without Frank Thomas. I add with a shortstop getting on base at a horrible rate, a third baseman underperforming, catchers who couldn't hit a lick, Esteban Loaiza crashing and burning, and fifth starters who were basically guaranteed losses every time they went out.

jabrch
11-25-2004, 12:06 PM
every sox fan should be able to see that unless there's an unexpected change in ownership's methods we will be much worse this coming year. the sox have to struggle just to be as good a team next year as they were last. other teams are improving while we try to maintain the status quo which means 3rd or 4th place.

we're at least 3 years away from being serious again. and THAT is if the sox AIM for '07! if they spend stupidly (RJ or some other big name 40 year old) we'll be looking at '10 or the sox's ownership demise before having anything to get excited about again.

If that wasn't intended to be in teal, I'd suggest a mild sedative...

fquaye149
11-25-2004, 12:26 PM
most everyone in this thread could use:
:prozac

johnny_mostil
11-25-2004, 12:37 PM
most everyone in this thread could use:
:prozacWe're already suicidal... isn't that a side-effect with some people?

Ol' No. 2
11-25-2004, 01:06 PM
Just as a question, as I wasn't on this board last year:

How many here were wailing about NOT signing Sidney Ponson?

jabrch
11-25-2004, 01:07 PM
Just as a question, as I wasn't on this board last year:

How many here were wailing about NOT signing Sidney Ponson?


You don't want to know... It was a major failure on KW's part....a major failure. Just more proof that the Sox are cheap and stupid.

Ol' No. 2
11-25-2004, 01:10 PM
You don't want to know... It was a major failure on KW's part....a major failure. Just more proof that the Sox are cheap and stupid.I bet I can guess, though. Probably about the same number as wanted to "dump" Konerko and Rowand.

gosox41
11-25-2004, 01:16 PM
Just as a question, as I wasn't on this board last year:

How many here were wailing about NOT signing Sidney Ponson?
A lot. And you can pretty much guess who they are and be correct.


Bob

jabrch
11-25-2004, 01:17 PM
I bet I can guess, though. Probably about the same number as wanted to "dump" Konerko and Rowand.

Change the names - but the tune stays the same. Every guy we miss out on is becuase
KW is stupid and JR is cheap and it never has anything to do with legitimate financial modeling. WSI is loaded with the best potential owners in professional sports - we'd spend like Hicks/Steinbrenner, hire the best front office people, be the best talent evaluators, and we'd win year after year. Our 275mm payroll would pale in comparison to the revenue we'd generate - cuz all you have to do is spend money to make money....right?

Happy Thanksgiving to all...

Lip Man 1
11-25-2004, 01:29 PM
Jabrch says: "KW is stupid and JR is cheap."

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Take a lesson from PHG, ****.....'White Sox baseball: Cheap, timid and stupid...'

45 years since a World Series appearance...one of only four current MLB teams to have not won a single playoff series since 1917 (but who's counting!)

But hey Uncle Jerry's bankbook is good and that's all that matters! The games are played for profit not for championships.

Honestly I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the nonsense from the ****.

Lip

fquaye149
11-25-2004, 02:56 PM
i'm not sure anyone here is a friend of uncle jerry. compare the so-called ****'s (of which I might even be considered a member, despite my complete indifference toward the man) to the FOBB's and tell me how they compare.

The point is, this seems to be a site divided at this point. Half (or so) feel that JR and KW are wholly responsible for the Sox' lack of success (although, given our history of futility...anyway...I digress) whereas the other half (or so) feel the answer is not as simple as: spend more money, get a Billy Beaneite GM.

Just because I (and many others on this site) feel we were better off not signing Ponson and Colon (among others) last year, or that giving pitchers, the most fragile of all baseball players, long-term contracts is a very dangerous venture, does that mean that I am an unabashed disciple of Uncle Jerry?

I think this label happy trend of FO seems to be going overboard when if you don't completely despise someone you are labeled their sycophant.

Dan H
11-25-2004, 03:15 PM
I don't know why some fans are rehashing last year's White Sox inactivity in the free agent market. Yes, Ponson was a bust, but if I am not mistaken Colon won more games than any other Sox pitcher. Bottom line is the Sox took chances on Wright, Schoenweis, and Garland, and obviously that didn't work out real well. Yes, the injuries hurt but they also exposed Sox weaknesses.

One thing most fans should be able to agree on is that the Sox will go nowhere this year if changes are not made. Ordonez is gone. Their starting pitching is suspect. To do nohting would be an insult to Sox fans.

The winter meetings haven't happened yet, so there is plenty of time to make some moves. And they have to do something. Pinning hopes on question marks will not cut it. Let's not be like Cub fans. 83 wins should not placate us.

Hangar18
11-25-2004, 03:38 PM
At least Detroit has been active in the FA market.

Agreed. A team that ACTIVELY tries to get better has a HIGHER chance
of actually BEING BETTER. Hear that Chairman Rein$dorf??

Hangar18
11-25-2004, 03:41 PM
I don't know why some fans are rehashing last year's White Sox inactivity in the free agent market. Yes, Ponson was a bust, but if I am not mistaken Colon won more games than any other Sox pitcher. Bottom line is the Sox took chances on Wright, Schoenweis, and Garland, and obviously that didn't work out real well. Yes, the injuries hurt but they also exposed Sox weaknesses.

To do nohting would be an insult to Sox fans.


"To Do Nothing would be an Insult to SOX Fans". Heh heh. Jerry Reinsdorf
has been insulting SOX Fans since .............
This foolish idea of Doing Nothing and hoping for the best has basically gotten
us 2nd and 3rd place on a regular basis. Its time to do something different
wouldnt you say?

jabrch
11-25-2004, 04:10 PM
Dan, wins alone aren't a great metric of a pitcher, are they? I mean - what would Colon's numbers have looked like at USCF with out offense/defense behind him? Would it have been worth the amount of money committed to him? I don't think anyone was happy that we didn't get ponson or Colon, but in hindsight, it doesn't look like mistakes that we didn't outpay Baltimore or Anaheim for them - does it?

I don't know why some fans are rehashing last year's White Sox inactivity in the free agent market. Yes, Ponson was a bust, but if I am not mistaken Colon won more games than any other Sox pitcher. Bottom line is the Sox took chances on Wright, Schoenweis, and Garland, and obviously that didn't work out real well. Yes, the injuries hurt but they also exposed Sox weaknesses.

One thing most fans should be able to agree on is that the Sox will go nowhere this year if changes are not made. Ordonez is gone. Their starting pitching is suspect. To do nohting would be an insult to Sox fans.

The winter meetings haven't happened yet, so there is plenty of time to make some moves. And they have to do something. Pinning hopes on question marks will not cut it. Let's not be like Cub fans. 83 wins should not placate us.

voodoochile
11-25-2004, 04:23 PM
Dan, wins alone aren't a great metric of a pitcher, are they? I mean - what would Colon's numbers have looked like at USCF with out offense/defense behind him? Would it have been worth the amount of money committed to him? I don't think anyone was happy that we didn't get ponson or Colon, but in hindsight, it doesn't look like mistakes that we didn't outpay Baltimore or Anaheim for them - does it?
So when should the Sox make bids on FA pitchers and position players?

I mean every single signee has the potential to go bust.

By that philosophy, they should do nothing at all and hope for the best.

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-25-2004, 04:27 PM
Reinsy gets made fun of everyday on this site. I'd like to see his reaction to us poking fun at him every day.

jabrch
11-25-2004, 04:32 PM
So when should the Sox make bids on FA pitchers and position players?

I mean every single signee has the potential to go bust.

By that philosophy, they should do nothing at all and hope for the best.


No VC - but fat, out of shape guys who are entering their 30s and are reported to have been injured towards the end of the season (Colon) are not where I'd go and throw my chips. And Ponson? I mean - come on... His numbers were horrendously mediocre. I'd rather spend my money more smart than that. Who specifically? Pavano, RJ, are good looking options - but not without their own problems. Nobody is saying to not make bids on FAs - you know that. But just because some teams are paying stupid amounts of money for them doesn't mean we should too. Let's use what limited resources we do have in a somewhat intelligent fashion. Eventually, that's got to be a better way to run a team that to throw money at guys who are less likely to succeed, right?

Look - I'd love to have a system like Oakland or the Cubs that have developed multiple star calibre pitchers in a short period of time. But in lieu of that, using our money smartly is much better than wasting it on the FA flavour of the month - when it looks like that flavor is not going to be optimal...

jabrch
11-25-2004, 05:03 PM
So when should the Sox make bids on FA pitchers and position players?

I mean every single signee has the potential to go bust.

By that philosophy, they should do nothing at all and hope for the best.

Bears games was on a commercial VC - and I was flipping channels. World Series of Poker was on. Reminded me of this discussion. You have a limited number of chips to spend. You can't add more to them. So you want to put them all on the table with the best chance of winning. Is it Bartolo for 4/52? Is it Ponson for 3/23? It may be neither...and rather than put all his chips in with pocket 2s, the guy folded and waited for another hand. Sometimes going all in on crap isn't the best play - but that doesn't mean you should never go all in... Just be sure to do it when you have an actual chance of winning....

gosox41
11-25-2004, 11:53 PM
i'm not sure anyone here is a friend of uncle jerry. compare the so-called ****'s (of which I might even be considered a member, despite my complete indifference toward the man) to the FOBB's and tell me how they compare.

The point is, this seems to be a site divided at this point. Half (or so) feel that JR and KW are wholly responsible for the Sox' lack of success (although, given our history of futility...anyway...I digress) whereas the other half (or so) feel the answer is not as simple as: spend more money, get a Billy Beaneite GM.

Just because I (and many others on this site) feel we were better off not signing Ponson and Colon (among others) last year, or that giving pitchers, the most fragile of all baseball players, long-term contracts is a very dangerous venture, does that mean that I am an unabashed disciple of Uncle Jerry?

I think this label happy trend of FO seems to be going overboard when if you don't completely despise someone you are labeled their sycophant.
But you should know that any FA out there is worth signing no matter what the cost and if they don't perform the Sox should just spend more money and find a replacement. It's that simple.


Bob

Jerome
11-26-2004, 12:58 AM
I also see things getting worse instead of better. We have question marks at owner, GM, manager, catcher, second, short, third, right, DH, three rotation spots and four bullpen spots. And two players who I didn't count as question marks (Konerko, Lee) are streaky.


LOL I like some of those question marks. I say next year, after another no-playoff season will we have questions at GM. Five years in a row of no playoffs should have some people doing some serious asking.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2004, 10:34 AM
I don't know why some fans are rehashing last year's White Sox inactivity in the free agent market. Yes, Ponson was a bust, but if I am not mistaken Colon won more games than any other Sox pitcher. Bottom line is the Sox took chances on Wright, Schoenweis, and Garland, and obviously that didn't work out real well. Yes, the injuries hurt but they also exposed Sox weaknesses.

One thing most fans should be able to agree on is that the Sox will go nowhere this year if changes are not made. Ordonez is gone. Their starting pitching is suspect. To do nohting would be an insult to Sox fans.

The winter meetings haven't happened yet, so there is plenty of time to make some moves. And they have to do something. Pinning hopes on question marks will not cut it. Let's not be like Cub fans. 83 wins should not placate us. Yep. Some people here, specifically those who think cheap and stupid should be written in teal, just can't deal with the reality that last year's team won 83 pathetic games. 12 months later and they're still here trying to tell the rest of us how smart all our inaction last winter truly was, as though not signing Sidney Ponson was somehow the championship key for the Sox...

It's pure jabberwocky. They're so bankrupt of ideas they can't even use sarcasm effectively any more.

fquaye149
11-26-2004, 10:49 AM
83 wins was a bitter pill to swallow, but in perspective the team we fielded at the beginning of the season should have been able to win the division.

yes i know we've heard that before, but everything up till Frank's injury seemed to indicate that we were headed for it.

Yes, it was disappointing and yes there were some holes in our team that became more apparent when Frank and Maggs went down,

But let's wait to call the management cheap and stupid until we see how we spend the offseason.

If we do in fact cut payroll and refuse to fill most of our gaps, I'll be right with you on calling the team cheap and stupid. But don't you think it's a little early to be pulling the trigger on JR and KW.

Yes, history, history, history, but if we look at history a little bit...we might see that the Sox have been as successful in the 90's as they have in a long while...but regardless...let's hold our criticisms for a little while.

For some reason I trust Kenny when he acknowledges the very holes we have been pointing at on this site all year and says he is going to try to fill them.

I say this all with all due respect, since I know a great many of you disagree. This is just my perspective on the issue....not QUITE optimism, but enough to keep my blood pressure down around 160/95

johnny_mostil
11-26-2004, 11:37 AM
12 months later and they're still here trying to tell the rest of us how smart all our inaction last winter truly was, as though not signing Sidney Ponson was somehow the championship key for the Sox...

It's pure jabberwocky. They're so bankrupt of ideas they can't even use sarcasm effectively any more.
Ideas? Uh, George, we're fans, not GMs. We're supposed to have opinions, passions, and of course, cash to spend. I don't care how brilliant our ideas are, ultimately, the only ideas that matter are the ones Kenny has.

Bartolo Colon at fifty-plus million dollars was a huge risk. The White Sox admitted they were out-bid by fifteen million bucks for a fat pitcher who did go 18-12 but who posted a 5.01 ERA. Colon won 18 games because his team scored 193 runs in his 34 starts, 5.7 runs/game. Give him average run support for his team and he's 13-17 and everybody's wiping their brow. Inaction on Bartolo Colon was cheap and smart.

It's the minors that are the problem.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2004, 12:04 PM
Ideas? Uh, George, we're fans, not GMs. We're supposed to have opinions, passions, and of course, cash to spend. I don't care how brilliant our ideas are, ultimately, the only ideas that matter are the ones Kenny has.

Bartolo Colon at fifty-plus million dollars was a huge risk. The White Sox admitted they were out-bid by fifteen million bucks for a fat pitcher who did go 18-12 but who posted a 5.01 ERA. Colon won 18 games because his team scored 193 runs in his 34 starts, 5.7 runs/game. Give him average run support for his team and he's 13-17 and everybody's wiping their brow. Inaction on Bartolo Colon was cheap and smart.

It's the minors that are the problem. Gee, I thought flushing the 1997 season down the toilet was supposed to fix the minor league problem. Silly me...
:wink:

The problem isn't never letting useful ballplayers go. They all get old and many of them become overpaid for the production they deliver. You've cited several examples in this thread and I believe they are all valid. Kudos to you!
:thumbsup:

The real problem is replacing the talent you lose, and upgrading talent whenever possible. The most talented ballplayers always go for a premium price, whether in trade, salary arbitration, or via free agency. There are no substitutes for shortstop talent the equal of Alex Rodriguez, and only perhaps 1-3 substitutes for shortstop talent a notch beneath his.

Someone with an engineering background knows quite well the concept of a bell curve, so the premium price for the exceptional outliers of baseball talent is not a concept you are unfamilar with.

The ugly truth is the Sox were willing to pay this premium price back in the early-80's or we would never have signed ballplayers the equal to free agent catcher Carlton Fisk, free agent designated hitter Greg Luzinski, and free agent starting pitcher Floyd Banister. However the Sox stopped being willing to pay this premium sometime before the 1986 season.

I'm not going to argue why this is the ugly truth. I'm only stating the ugly facts.
:(:

We're a team stuck with 80-86 wins annually until something *significant* changes. I don't see even a ray of hope it will happen anytime this winter. Or ever?
:o:

johnny_mostil
11-26-2004, 12:31 PM
Someone with an engineering background knows quite well the concept of a bell curve, so the premium price for the exceptional outliers of baseball talent is not a concept you are unfamilar with.
(They bought Luzinski's contract from the Phils, by the way)

There's a delicate balance between understanding the exceptional outliers and wild overspending. Take Carlos Beltran. Yes, I know that the Royals won six straight division titles with Beltran's five tools dominating the central division. But the Series is beyond the reach of any single player, A-Rod or RJ or Jason Giambi or whomever. The exceptional prices commanded by the outliers are still, usually, bad deals, at least in terms of economics. That doesn't mean you never, ever pull the trigger on a premium player; even the White Sox actually did this once, remember, in 1997. It means unless you're the Yankees and don't care about how much it costs to field a team, you're taking an awful risk.

Ultimately I think what we all agree on is we don't really trust Kenny's talent judgment because of, well, Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch and Royce Clayton; we don't trust the ownership to allow Kenny to move on a superior player even if one makes sense; and we don't trust the farm system's "brightest lights" because the last handful have turned out to be 10W bulbs.

johnny_mostil
11-26-2004, 12:36 PM
Gee, I thought flushing the 1997 season down the toilet was supposed to fix the minor league problem. Silly me...
:wink:

We both know it did "patch" the problem... the problem of a farm system generating nothing but low-grade talent from 1993 to 1997. The problem is, from 1997 to 2004, the farm system just hasn't gotten that much more productive, and it continues to crank out busts.

MisterB
11-26-2004, 12:42 PM
Bartolo Colon at fifty-plus million dollars was a huge risk. The White Sox admitted they were out-bid by fifteen million bucks for a fat pitcher who did go 18-12 but who posted a 5.01 ERA. Colon won 18 games because his team scored 193 runs in his 34 starts, 5.7 runs/game. Give him average run support for his team and he's 13-17 and everybody's wiping their brow. Inaction on Bartolo Colon was cheap and smart.
Don't be deceived by Colon's overall numbers.

In his 18 wins he averaged 7 ip with an era of 2.16 - In only one of those wins did he give up as much as 4 earned runs.

In his 12 losses, he averaged 5 ip and an era of 10.07 - and in 2 of them he pitched 7+ innings with only 3 er allowed.

His run support didn't help as much as you think.

Hangar18
11-26-2004, 12:51 PM
Yes, it was disappointing and yes there were some holes in our team that became more apparent when Frank and Maggs went down,

But let's wait to call the management cheap and stupid until we see how we spend the offseason.




Your 1st Point: JR & KW CREATED those holes thru INACTION
Your 2nd Point: The SOX have earned the right to be called CHEAP & STUPID.
Cheap based on 20-something years of cutting corners, and Stupid based on
20-something years of not realizing being Cheap wont win you anything.

Jerry Rein$dorf has gotten away with murder, because the rest of the Chicago Media is Stupid, Lazy and too Pre-Occupied with making World Series
lineups for the cubs, potential championship parade locations, and covering
up the numerous murders, shootings and assaults in the "safe" wrigleyville
area. :angry: :angry:

Lip Man 1
11-26-2004, 01:09 PM
PHG: Kudos to your comments. The **** just don't get it and never will as long as their main concern is Uncle Jerry's wallet.

Shall we try for 46 years without a World Series? Do I hear 47?? How about 50???

Lip

Dan H
11-26-2004, 04:02 PM
PHG: Kudos to your comments. The **** just don't get it and never will as long as their main concern is Uncle Jerry's wallet.

Shall we try for 46 years without a World Series? Do I hear 47?? How about 50???

Lip
50 is closer than we all think. I don't avdocate doing something just for the sake of doing something. But Ordonez is gone and Frank is coming off an injury. So this team has to do something and it will cost some money. Either that or it will be another lackluster season where we see some other team from another city go to the World Series.

It would also help if the Sox had a plan. Do we think they have one?

fquaye149
11-26-2004, 04:53 PM
Your 1st Point: JR & KW CREATED those holes thru INACTION
Your 2nd Point: The SOX have earned the right to be called CHEAP & STUPID.
Cheap based on 20-something years of cutting corners, and Stupid based on
20-something years of not realizing being Cheap wont win you anything.

Jerry Rein$dorf has gotten away with murder, because the rest of the Chicago Media is Stupid, Lazy and too Pre-Occupied with making World Series
lineups for the cubs, potential championship parade locations, and covering
up the numerous murders, shootings and assaults in the "safe" wrigleyville
area. :angry: :angry:

um....every team has holes....the world champion red sox, had they lost david ortiz and manny ramirez (the equivalent of our losses, give or take) would most likely not have made the playoffs because their weaknesses in rotation and defensively would have been exposed. Ditto with the cardinals had they lost pujols and rolen for half the season. And we're operating on a budget that is much lower than theirs, which seems appropriate given the fact that even if you split the population of chicago down the middle it is lower than these two cities.

yes we all want JR to spend more money, but it ain't gonna happen, and odds are, even if he does cell...sorry sell, the new owner probably won't spend all that much extra either.

JHC...our attendance was not very good this year, alienation or not. We can rehash the past if we want, but what good does that do us looking forward to the future?

idseer
11-26-2004, 05:20 PM
I'm as negative as anybody but this is nuts. What do you want "ownership" to do? 90% of the free agent signings so far have been borderline idiotic moves that actually made their teams worse. Most of the players on the market will not earn their contracts because most free agents don't. By the time most players are free agents, they are in their thirties and ready to decline. If you look at the FAs who actually left the White Sox, virtually all to fans' cries of calamity, very few have actually earned their contracts. Ray Durham? Charles Johnson? Alex Fernandez? Jack McDowell? Albert Belle? One flop after another. Agents sell major league free agents as proven commodities who can deliver known performance. The truth is, there is virtually no such thing, because everybody eventually gets old, gets hurt, gets lazy, or some combination of the three, and because MLB FAs are mostly guys over the middle of their careers, most of the free agents are money thrown away.

"Ownership" with the White Sox is basically a PR problem. The baseball problem, and it is fundamental, is that the scouting department and the GM's office have failed to create a farm system that produces good young major league players at a rate to stay ahead of the rest of the division. Money just can't solve that.

As for the upcoming season, don't panic... yet... As Hal Vickery keeps pointing out, the team won 83 games mostly without Magglio, half without Frank Thomas. I add with a shortstop getting on base at a horrible rate, a third baseman underperforming, catchers who couldn't hit a lick, Esteban Loaiza crashing and burning, and fifth starters who were basically guaranteed losses every time they went out.
wow, i never got back to this thread. let me answer now.
the reason 90% of the moves have been borderline idiotic is BECAUSE of ownerships unwillingness to step up to the plate and do what it takes to go after the more 'sure thing' players.
so you ask what is ownership to do? ... SELL TO SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY WANTS TO WIN!

and ALL of you are wrong to think i am 'panicking' or 'giving up'. i am facing the facts you refuse to face! if you really believe the sox will contend this year or next you are BLIND! unless a major change happens in the way this team operates they will not contend till at least '07 and probably longer.
the team will be weaker this coming season and we will lose even more players the following year. the ONLY reason i suggest they MAY contend in '07 is if they get very lucky with players coming out of the minors.

jabrch
11-26-2004, 05:33 PM
I must have missed all the threads where people are predicting this team is going to be a world series contender....cuz I didn't see a single one of them.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-26-2004, 09:26 PM
No VC - but fat, out of shape guys who are entering their 30s and are reported to have been injured towards the end of the season (Colon) are not where I'd go and throw my chips.
July 2003: Kenny Williams acquires Carl Everett and Robbie Alomar.

July 2004: Kenny Williams acquires Carl Everett and Robbie Alomar, along with Contreras signed through 2006.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2004, 09:32 PM
Fquaye says: "the new owner probably won't spend all that much extra either."

And people call us pessimists! Who knows what the next owner will do. Nobody knows until when or if the team is sold. hell we could get lucky for the first time in over a century and get a well heeled guy who knows the value of winning in terms of corporate sales, radio / TV rights and attendance.

Lip

doublem23
11-26-2004, 10:18 PM
By that philosophy, they should do nothing at all and hope for the best.
:reinsy
I like it, VC. You're hired.

voodoochile
11-26-2004, 11:52 PM
wow, i never got back to this thread. let me answer now.
the reason 90% of the moves have been borderline idiotic is BECAUSE of ownerships unwillingness to step up to the plate and do what it takes to go after the more 'sure thing' players.
so you ask what is ownership to do? ... SELL TO SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY WANTS TO WIN!

and ALL of you are wrong to think i am 'panicking' or 'giving up'. i am facing the facts you refuse to face! if you really believe the sox will contend this year or next you are BLIND! unless a major change happens in the way this team operates they will not contend till at least '07 and probably longer.
the team will be weaker this coming season and we will lose even more players the following year. the ONLY reason i suggest they MAY contend in '07 is if they get very lucky with players coming out of the minors.
Well then I guess it's a good thing only Garcia is signed into 2007. Every other player is done with their contract by the end of 2006 or before.

I think it has more to do with the next CBA negotiations which will start taking place sometime in 2006 (hopefully before they are forced to cancel another WS), but maybe JR is just a brilliant tactician who knows deep in his heart that all of these guys suck and he's setting the team up for their next big run... Does that really need to be in teal? :rolleyes:

voodoochile
11-26-2004, 11:59 PM
:reinsy
I like it, VC. You're hired.
Thanks, JR... um... I can call you JR can't I? If not, I'll go with reinsy. You can even call me Costanza if you want to. Not that it's my name, but that way I'd get to work for the Sox longer. Whenever you'd say, "Fire that *******, Costanza!" No one would know who you are talking about. That would be soooo funny. I'd laugh and laugh and laugh all the way to the bank. Did I mention that I will work cheap? Any contract with 6 digits to the left of the decimal place per year will work just fine for me.

Say, 10 years, 1.5M (that way my taxes are covered and I still get those lovely 6 digits I was talking about) to do nothing and write nasty things about you at WSI. Heck, I'll even throw in an occasional nice comment if you actually do something good... Yeah right... I kill me...

Now about that first paycheck. Would 12/1/2004 be too soon for you to cut it? If not, I'll buy the first :gulp:or two or three or 10 and we can get :drunken: and have a really good time.

jabrch
11-27-2004, 12:05 AM
July 2003: Kenny Williams acquires Carl Everett and Robbie Alomar.

July 2004: Kenny Williams acquires Carl Everett and Robbie Alomar, along with Contreras signed through 2006.


And gave up..... a grand total of Frank Francisco

WhiteSoxFan84
11-27-2004, 02:00 AM
The Indians (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/team/71591) are preparing for life without shortstop Omar Vizquel (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/player/85082).

and their point is?? I think they would have done the same if not better last season without Omar. Sporting News is really losing it's credibility FAST.

idseer
11-27-2004, 11:27 AM
Well then I guess it's a good thing only Garcia is signed into 2007. Every other player is done with their contract by the end of 2006 or before.

I think it has more to do with the next CBA negotiations which will start taking place sometime in 2006 (hopefully before they are forced to cancel another WS), but maybe JR is just a brilliant tactician who knows deep in his heart that all of these guys suck and he's setting the team up for their next big run... Does that really need to be in teal? :rolleyes:
i'm aware players keep coming and going. obviously i'm hoping for the best ... which would be retaining certain players we need in addition to cultivating the new kids. if he just keeps his revolving door policy .. we'll likely NEVER see a sox championship or even a good shot at it.

i'm also becoming less and less hopeful that cba negotiations will change much of anything. i think everyone is too happy with the status quo. why shouldn't they be? the only ones who REALLY want change are the fans. and i don't thing we're very high on their priority list (this goes for all of baseball in general and the sox in particular.

fquaye149
11-27-2004, 12:41 PM
Fquaye says: "the new owner probably won't spend all that much extra either."

And people call us pessimists! Who knows what the next owner will do. Nobody knows until when or if the team is sold. hell we could get lucky for the first time in over a century and get a well heeled guy who knows the value of winning in terms of corporate sales, radio / TV rights and attendance.

Lip


so wait...the pessimist is the one who DOESN'T say: the grass is always greener in someone else's yard?

SouthSide_HitMen
11-27-2004, 07:34 PM
And gave up..... a grand total of Frank FranciscoThey also gave up several million dollars (and are stuck with Contreras through 2006) for "fat, out of shape guys who are entering their 30s and are reported to have been injured towards the end of the season" which, as you posted earlier "are not where I'd go and throw my chips."

Maybe KW will hire you as his assistant since your idea of building teams around fat out of shape guys in their 30s shares his vision for bringing championship baseball to the South Side. Maybe JR's body type is the future in MLB and White Sox baseball in particular.

White Sox fans shouldn't worry about losing Konerko after 2005 - they will still have Thomas nearing 40, Contreras still under contract and will either resign Everett & Alomar or once again trade for them in their annual "push for 2nd in the weak AL Central".

SouthSide_HitMen
11-27-2004, 07:39 PM
and their point is?? I think they would have done the same if not better last season without Omar. Sporting News is really losing it's credibility FAST.
Meanwhile, the White Sox prepare for 2005 without Ordonez or obtaining anyone near replacing his production over the past several seasons. Maybe Bochard will hit another exciting home run in 2005.

JR & KWs credibility are long gone.

White Sox baseball - Cheap and Stupid for a generation.

jabrch
11-28-2004, 01:43 AM
They also gave up several million dollars (and are stuck with Contreras through 2006) for "fat, out of shape guys who are entering their 30s and are reported to have been injured towards the end of the season" which, as you posted earlier "are not where I'd go and throw my chips."

Maybe KW will hire you as his assistant since your idea of building teams around fat out of shape guys in their 30s shares his vision for bringing championship baseball to the South Side. Maybe JR's body type is the future in MLB and White Sox baseball in particular.

White Sox fans shouldn't worry about losing Konerko after 2005 - they will still have Thomas nearing 40, Contreras still under contract and will either resign Everett & Alomar or once again trade for them in their annual "push for 2nd in the weak AL Central".

LOL

PaulDrake
11-28-2004, 07:04 PM
Ultimately I think what we all agree on is we don't really trust Kenny's talent judgment because of, well, Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch and Royce Clayton; we don't trust the ownership to allow Kenny to move on a superior player even if one makes sense; and we don't trust the farm system's "brightest lights" because the last handful have turned out to be 10W bulbs. I can't speak for anybody else here, but this sure works for me. No argument here. The worst part is the Sox braintrust is oblivious. You can't fix your problems if you're too arrogant to admit them.

Lip Man 1
11-28-2004, 07:14 PM
Johnny's comments were right on the money.

"People ask, ‘does it always have to be about money?’ Well with owners it does. Ticket prices don’t go down when the team is losing."-- Scott Boras to Sports Illustrated.


Lip