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Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 02:15 PM
I always thought that the maximum salary reduction a player could incur in arbitration was 20% of his previous salary. This is from Article VI of the CBA on arbitration:
A Club may submit a salary figure for salary arbitration that is at least 80% of the Player’s previous year’s salary and earned performance bonuses (and at least 70% of his salary and earned performance bonuses two years previous), the provisions of Section A(5) above notwithstanding.However, later in the CBA, on page 67 in the section on free agency, I found this (emphasis added):




If the Player accepts the offer to arbitrate, he shall be a signed player for the next season and the parties will conduct a salary arbitration proceeding under Article VI, provided, however, that the rules concerning maximum salary reduction set forth in Article VI shall be inapplicable and the parties shall be required to exchange figures on the last day established for the exchange of salary arbitration figures under Article VI.This is contrary to what I've always understood the rules to be, but there it is in black and white.

JKryl
11-23-2004, 04:28 PM
So, if I read this right, anything goes?

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 04:51 PM
So, if I read this right, anything goes?Theoretically, yes. But lowballing is risky because the arbitrator has to choose one or the other submissions, so you could get stuck. The interesting thing regarding Magglio's situation is that the CBA specifically lists "physical defects" as valid criteria for the arbitrator to consider. So if they let the Sox doctors examine him, they could just be providing ammunition to be used in an arbitration hearing, increasing the chances the Sox would offer arbitration. By not letting the Sox doctors examine him until AFTER they've made their arbitration offer, the Sox can't make a low offer because if he turns out to be healthy, they could get stuck.

Flight #24
11-23-2004, 05:15 PM
Theoretically, yes. But lowballing is risky because the arbitrator has to choose one or the other submissions, so you could get stuck. The interesting thing regarding Magglio's situation is that the CBA specifically lists "physical defects" as valid criteria for the arbitrator to consider. So if they let the Sox doctors examine him, they could just be providing ammunition to be used in an arbitration hearing, increasing the chances the Sox would offer arbitration. By not letting the Sox doctors examine him until AFTER they've made their arbitration offer, the Sox can't make a low offer because if he turns out to be healthy, they could get stuck.
I dont' buy it. If he's healthy, then allow the exam & turn down arb and hit the market. Plus you allow yourself the option of returning (which was something he supposedly was interested in), and you get everyone salivating because there are no questions.

If he's not healthy, but close, then even in that case, worst case if he accepts the arb is that the arbitrator would be able to pick hi recommendation since he'll be healthy.

The only conclusion I can come to is that he's either not healthy and won't be 100%, or that he's willing to go to significant lengths to screw the Sox out of their comp picks. Add in the "minor surgery, I just really wanted to see Austria and killed 2 birds with 1 stone" story and his knee stinks worse than alewives on LSD.

pearso66
11-23-2004, 05:19 PM
I don't think he's as healthy as they are saying. And in order to get teams to sign him, they aren't allowing the Sox to examine him, in turn they wont offer him arbitration. That way he can get the most out of any other team that would sign him. if he went to arbitration and declined, there wouldnt be many teams willing to spend a lot of money on an injury question, and have to give up 2 draft picks. This is to make him look more tempting, as in "hey i can have a player who if healthy is good, and I don't have to give up anything for him"

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 05:23 PM
I dont' buy it. If he's healthy, then allow the exam & turn down arb and hit the market. Plus you allow yourself the option of returning (which was something he supposedly was interested in), and you get everyone salivating because there are no questions.

If he's not healthy, but close, then even in that case, worst case if he accepts the arb is that the arbitrator would be able to pick hi recommendation since he'll be healthy.

The only conclusion I can come to is that he's either not healthy and won't be 100%, or that he's willing to go to significant lengths to screw the Sox out of their comp picks. Add in the "minor surgery, I just really wanted to see Austria and killed 2 birds with 1 stone" story and his knee stinks worse than alewives on LSD.IF he's healthy, he doesn't want the Sox to offer arb, because it makes him less valuable to another team since they have to give up draft picks. If he's not healthy, they would love for the Sox to offer arb, because even if they "lose" they still win.

From the Sox perspective, if they know either way, they can offer arbitration with a bid commensurate with his health. What keeps them from doing so is the uncertainty. If they guess wrong, they could get screwed.

Flight #24
11-23-2004, 05:25 PM
IF he's healthy, he doesn't want the Sox to offer arb, because it makes him less valuable to another team since they have to give up draft picks. If he's not healthy, they would love for the Sox to offer arb, because even if they "lose" they still win.

From the Sox perspective, if they know either way, they can offer arbitration with a bid commensurate with his health. What keeps them from doing so is the uncertainty. If they guess wrong, they could get screwed.
If it's true that they're not restricted in the paycut they can ofer via arb, then they'd be fools not to offer it and just treat him as if he's seriously injured. Worst case is that he's healthy and they get him at a 1-yr deal (but healthy, he's worth that).

All of which makes me think that they are indeed restricted in what they can offer him. Otherwise, they wouldn't really have any risk.

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 05:36 PM
If it's true that they're not restricted in the paycut they can ofer via arb, then they'd be fools not to offer it and just treat him as if he's seriously injured. Worst case is that he's healthy and they get him at a 1-yr deal (but healthy, he's worth that).

All of which makes me think that they are indeed restricted in what they can offer him. Otherwise, they wouldn't really have any risk.This is like a poker game, and Boras is NOT going to show his cards. The risk in a lowball offer is that he can submit a very high bid and probably win if he's healthy. Remember, the arbitrator has to choose one or the other. OTOH, why would he accept arbitration if he's healthy? OTOOH, if he's not healthy, what's the point in hiding it? No team is going to offer much without a thorough exam and I'm sure Boras is smart enough to know that.

This whole thing is the strangest free agency I've ever seen. I couldn't make up something this weird if I tried. Even with lots of help.:gulp:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-23-2004, 05:51 PM
All I know is that two compensation picks are nowhere near worth $11 mil, the Sox & Mags have parted ways and it is sad it had to end this way.

Flight #24
11-23-2004, 05:51 PM
This is like a poker game, and Boras is NOT going to show his cards. The risk in a lowball offer is that he can submit a very high bid and probably win if he's healthy. Remember, the arbitrator has to choose one or the other. OTOH, why would he accept arbitration if he's healthy? OTOOH, if he's not healthy, what's the point in hiding it? No team is going to offer much without a thorough exam and I'm sure Boras is smart enough to know that.

This whole thing is the strangest free agency I've ever seen. I couldn't make up something this weird if I tried. Even with lots of help.:gulp:
But the arb award is a 1-year deal, so I doubt the team would be that concerned about say Maggs getting a 1-yr, $14mil deal v. a 1-yr $12mil deal (plus there are other ways that they can cut salary if they need to). Their real worry seems to be getting saddled with a sizeable contract for a guy sitting on the DL (or underperforming), which seems to indicate that they can't lowball the arb award. The key assumption is that an arbitrator would not award something high in the event of injury (which seems reasonable). If he IS healthy, then a high award would be OK.

Daver
11-23-2004, 06:45 PM
The above exceptions to the maximum salary reduction rules do
not alter the obligations of the Clubs to comply with Articles VI(D)
and XX(A) of this Agreement and paragraph 10(a) of the Uniform
Player’s Contract for the purposes of contract tender and renewal.

You have to be up your legalese to read some of this stuff.

Ol' No. 2
11-24-2004, 09:56 AM
You have to be up your legalese to read some of this stuff.Those sections all seem to deal with renewals, i.e. players not yet eligible for arbitration. For example, section 10(a) of the Uniform Players Contract is entitiled "Renewal" and starts out:




10.(a) Unless the Player has exercised his right to become a free agent as set forth in the Basic Agreement...Even the section you quoted is "for the purposes of contract tender and renewal" and not free agents. The part in article XX(B) specifically says that the maximum salary reduction in article VI does not apply. What would be the point of specifically saying the rule doesn't apply if it does?



I agree, this seems to contradict everything I thought I knew about this subject, but it's there in black and white.

JKryl
11-25-2004, 12:18 AM
This is like a poker game, and Boras is NOT going to show his cards. The risk in a lowball offer is that he can submit a very high bid and probably win if he's healthy. Remember, the arbitrator has to choose one or the other. OTOH, why would he accept arbitration if he's healthy? OTOOH, if he's not healthy, what's the point in hiding it? No team is going to offer much without a thorough exam and I'm sure Boras is smart enough to know that.

This whole thing is the strangest free agency I've ever seen. I couldn't make up something this weird if I tried. Even with lots of help.:gulp:
You know, Boras is slimey enough, and I'm twisted enough to think that if he's healthy and refuses to admit it, Boras may think that the Sox will make him an offer thinking he's hurt, and once he proves he's healthy, he wins the whole shootin' match.

I think I'm coming down with a head ache.



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