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Jurr
11-23-2004, 11:52 AM
I'm posting the link:
Apparently, the Mariners are not too pleased with Miguel Olivo's progress. I knew he was a raw ballplayer when we had him, but I didn't know he was THAT far away from being totally solid. He's in need of a lot of extra work. Maybe KW hit that nail right on the head!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002098303_mari23.html

kittle42
11-23-2004, 11:58 AM
That's no way to talk about a guaranteed future Hall of Famer.

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 11:59 AM
I'm posting the link:
Apparently, the Mariners are not too pleased with Miguel Olivo's progress. I knew he was a raw ballplayer when we had him, but I didn't know he was THAT far away from being totally solid. He's in need of a lot of extra work. Maybe KW hit that nail right on the head!That leaves Jeremy Reed as the only hall-of-famer Kenny stupidly gave up for 3 months of Freddy Garcia.

Mickster
11-23-2004, 12:00 PM
[/color]That leaves Jeremy Reed as the only hall-of-famer Kenny stupidly gave up for 3 months of Freddy Garcia.
WRONG. Cooperstown is busy with the Morse bust as we speak! :D:

Flight #24
11-23-2004, 12:01 PM
That doesn't speak well for Chicago's catching coaching. Or for Sandy Alomar's "mentoring". If it's true what they say about Olivo being a willing student & hard worker, then either he's dumb as a stump or he's had poor coaching. He's got the talent, so I don't see what else it could be.

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 12:02 PM
WRONG. Cooperstown is busy with the Morse bust as we speak! :D: Of course. How could I have forgotten what's-his-name?

Ol' No. 2
11-23-2004, 12:03 PM
That doesn't speak well for Chicago's catching coaching. Or for Sandy Alomar's "mentoring". If it's true what they say about Olivo being a willing student & hard worker, then either he's dumb as a stump or he's had poor coaching. He's got the talent, so I don't see what else it could be.It sounds like he's been coached by multiple people with the same results, so I don't see that you can blame it on Sandy or the Sox coaching.

Flight #24
11-23-2004, 12:04 PM
It sounds like he's been coached by multiple people with the same results, so I don't see that you can blame it on Sandy or the Sox coaching.
I can't say that I'd give much weight to the results from 3months of coaching in-season. Whether or not he improves by ST will tell the tale.

mweflen
11-23-2004, 12:05 PM
Hey, I'd take him back in a second. I think, work needed or not, he's a better option than Burke or Davis.

Foulke You
11-23-2004, 12:10 PM
I said it on the day of the trade and I'll say it now. Kenny made the right move getting Freddy Garcia here. I liked Olivo but this team needed pitching (still does) and Kenny got the best one on the market last year and only gave up a project catcher and a high prospect. I wish Olivo the best of luck but some people act as if we traded Carlton Fisk away.

hold2dibber
11-23-2004, 12:10 PM
Hey, I'd take him back in a second. I think, work needed or not, he's a better option than Burke or Davis.
That's not saying much! The Davis/Burke two headed catching monster would likely be the worst catching combo in the majors.

jabrch
11-23-2004, 12:18 PM
Cheap and Stupid

Baby Fisk
11-23-2004, 12:31 PM
:sahaf

"Lies! All lies! The great benevolent Olivo won the batting title by hitting an unprecedented .850 after he was traded to the most fortunate Marniers by the brainless clod Kenny Williams. Olivo's 67-game hitting streak will never be broken! His eight no-hitters cannot be eclipsed! His one thousand home runs are a new wonder of the world to behold! Brave Olivo led the mighty Mariners to this year's World Series by orchestrating a glorious 4-game comeback against the Yankee Infidels, and crushed the hapless St. Cardinal Louises 9 games to none! Olivo is the greatest catcher ever to wear a mask! The greatest athlete ever to wear a cup! The greatest man ever to walk the earth! I lust for him and want to sleep with him if such things were not immoral under the eyes of Allah... Not that there's anything wrong with that...I was just saying. Anyway! Olivo is the Greatest of All Time and the divine hand of God will elevate him directly to the Hall of Fame at any moment. This might be the moment! Brace yourselves! Okay, that was not the moment, but the moment could be anytime soon! Be vigilant and always prepared to celebrate the ascension!"

ilsox7
11-23-2004, 12:33 PM
:sahaf

"Lies! All lies! The great benevolent Olivo won the batting title by hitting an unprecedented .850 after he was traded to the most fortunate Marniers by the brainless clod Kenny Williams. Olivo's 67-game hitting streak will never be broken! His eight no-hitters cannot be eclipsed! His one thousand home runs are a new wonder of the world to behold! Brave Olivo led the mighty Mariners to this year's World Series by orchestrating a glorious 4-game comeback against the Yankee Infidels, and crushed the hapless St. Cardinal Louises 9 games to none! Olivo is the greatest catcher ever to wear a mask! The greatest athlete ever to wear a cup! The greatest man ever to walk the earth! I lust for him and want to sleep with him if such things were not immoral under the eyes of Allah... Not that there's anything wrong with that...I was just saying. Anyway! Olivo is the Greatest of All Time and the divine hand of God will elevate him directly to the Hall of Fame at any moment. This might be the moment! Brace yourselves! Okay, that was not the moment, but the moment could be anytime soon! Be vigilant and always prepared to celebrate the ascension!"
WOW. I had all but forgotten about Crazy Iraqi Defense Minister Dude. That made my day. Thanks!

Mickster
11-23-2004, 12:35 PM
:sahaf

"Lies! All lies! The great benevolent Olivo won the batting title by hitting an unprecedented .850 after he was traded to the most fortunate Marniers by the brainless clod Kenny Williams. Olivo's 67-game hitting streak will never be broken! His eight no-hitters cannot be eclipsed! His one thousand home runs are a new wonder of the world to behold! Brave Olivo led the mighty Mariners to this year's World Series by orchestrating a glorious 4-game comeback against the Yankee Infidels, and crushed the hapless St. Cardinal Louises 9 games to none! Olivo is the greatest catcher ever to wear a mask! The greatest athlete ever to wear a cup! The greatest man ever to walk the earth! I lust for him and want to sleep with him if such things were not immoral under the eyes of Allah... Not that there's anything wrong with that...I was just saying. Anyway! Olivo is the Greatest of All Time and the divine hand of God will elevate him directly to the Hall of Fame at any moment. This might be the moment! Brace yourselves! Okay, that was not the moment, but the moment could be anytime soon! Be vigilant and always prepared to celebrate the ascension!"
Good piece of writing... :D:

voodoochile
11-23-2004, 12:41 PM
That doesn't speak well for Chicago's catching coaching. Or for Sandy Alomar's "mentoring". If it's true what they say about Olivo being a willing student & hard worker, then either he's dumb as a stump or he's had poor coaching. He's got the talent, so I don't see what else it could be. Maybe he was just too young when he got called up - he did make the jump straight from AA to MLB after all.

Maybe he just isn't very coachable or has a bad memory.

Maybe he needs Ritalin.

Maybe the M's coaches suck and Olivo is regressing under their mentoring after rising higer with the good Sox coaching.

Maybe he's into grunge rock and Cafe Latte's and Seattle is just too distracting for him.

Or, maybe he never was as good as the hype surrounding him and Sox fans were just looking to jump on KW at a moment's notice.

Jabroni
11-23-2004, 12:46 PM
Anyone notice this excerpt from the article?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002098303_mari23.html
Meantime, word is that the Baltimore Orioles, Minnesota Twins and Chicago White Sox have expressed interest in [Dan] Wilson, with each club envisioning his role as Seattle does as a backup catcher.

The Orioles have Javy Lopez, the Twins have young Joe Mauer coming off knee troubles and the White Sox project Ben Davis as their starter.

mweflen
11-23-2004, 12:55 PM
:sahaf

"Lies! All lies! The great benevolent Olivo won the batting title by hitting an unprecedented .850 after he was traded to the most fortunate Marniers by the brainless clod Kenny Williams. Olivo's 67-game hitting streak will never be broken! His eight no-hitters cannot be eclipsed! His one thousand home runs are a new wonder of the world to behold! Brave Olivo led the mighty Mariners to this year's World Series by orchestrating a glorious 4-game comeback against the Yankee Infidels, and crushed the hapless St. Cardinal Louises 9 games to none! Olivo is the greatest catcher ever to wear a mask! The greatest athlete ever to wear a cup! The greatest man ever to walk the earth! I lust for him and want to sleep with him if such things were not immoral under the eyes of Allah... Not that there's anything wrong with that...I was just saying. Anyway! Olivo is the Greatest of All Time and the divine hand of God will elevate him directly to the Hall of Fame at any moment. This might be the moment! Brace yourselves! Okay, that was not the moment, but the moment could be anytime soon! Be vigilant and always prepared to celebrate the ascension!"I always enjoy reading your Tariq Aziz rants - however, there is one inconsistency in this one... Aziz was actually the lone Christian member of Hussein's cabinet - so sleeping with Olivo being a violation of Allah's law would not apply to him directly.

I agree that trading Olivo was the right thing to do. We needed the picthing - it hurt, but it was worth it.

All I'm saying is that if Seattle doesn't want him any more, I'd love to have him back.

FightingBillini
11-23-2004, 12:55 PM
[/color]That leaves Jeremy Reed as the only hall-of-famer Kenny stupidly gave up for 3 months of Freddy Garcia.
Uh oh, you are gonna get Southside_Hitmen started:tsk:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-23-2004, 12:56 PM
:sahaf

"Lies! All lies! The great benevolent Olivo won the batting title by hitting an unprecedented .850 after he was traded to the most fortunate Marniers by the brainless clod Kenny Williams. Olivo's 67-game hitting streak will never be broken! His eight no-hitters cannot be eclipsed! His one thousand home runs are a new wonder of the world to behold! Brave Olivo led the mighty Mariners to this year's World Series by orchestrating a glorious 4-game comeback against the Yankee Infidels, and crushed the hapless St. Cardinal Louises 9 games to none! Olivo is the greatest catcher ever to wear a mask! The greatest athlete ever to wear a cup! The greatest man ever to walk the earth! I lust for him and want to sleep with him if such things were not immoral under the eyes of Allah... Not that there's anything wrong with that...I was just saying. Anyway! Olivo is the Greatest of All Time and the divine hand of God will elevate him directly to the Hall of Fame at any moment. This might be the moment! Brace yourselves! Okay, that was not the moment, but the moment could be anytime soon! Be vigilant and always prepared to celebrate the ascension!"
:D:

Baby Fisk
11-23-2004, 01:02 PM
I always enjoy reading your Tariq Aziz rants - however, there is one inconsistency in this one... Aziz was actually the lone Christian member of Hussein's cabinet - so sleeping with Olivo being a violation of Allah's law would not apply to him directly.

I agree that trading Olivo was the right thing to do. We needed the picthing - it hurt, but it was worth it.

All I'm saying is that if Seattle doesn't want him any more, I'd love to have him back.Aziz was Hussein's deputy prime minister. This is Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the deposed information minister famous for his outrageous hyperbolic outbursts. There's a website of all his quotes and "where-is-he-now" updates:

welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/) :cool:

mweflen
11-23-2004, 01:04 PM
Aziz was Hussein's deputy prime minister. This is Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the deposed information minister famous for his outrageous hyperbolic outbursts. There's a website of all his quotes and "where-is-he-now" updates:

welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/) :cool:
Well shut my mouth :)

SouthSide_HitMen
11-23-2004, 01:06 PM
Uh oh, you are gonna get Southside_Hitmen started:tsk:In the words of John McLaughlin "WRONG".

I do find it amusing that one would defend / evaluate a trade by an off-season blurb declaring that a young player needs work. (If we still had Olivo, we would be hearing what great improvement we can expect in 2005 LOL)

I am sure Sox fans do hope that Olivo, Reed, Moore and, of course, Garcia all perform as good as their talents let them. I think we should wish all Sox well (except for the games they play against us), just as those who disagree with KW's moves do not root against the players he obtains.

This trade cannot be assessed conclusively for a few years. Both sides have their opinions and only time will tell which is right.

ma-gaga
11-23-2004, 03:51 PM
The Mariners' are moronic. They don't understand the idea of how to develop talent anymore. It's a real shame. I think they have a gold mine of a kid here, I'm shocked that they are badmouthing him.

munchman33
11-23-2004, 05:09 PM
The Mariners' are moronic. They don't understand the idea of how to develop talent anymore. It's a real shame. I think they have a gold mine of a kid here, I'm shocked that they are badmouthing him.
I don't know. This is now the second team to go out and say this kid can't call a game and doesn't get everything they're trying to teach him. Some guys work hard and try to figure things out. Others rely on talent and other methods. Don't forget, this is the same Miguel Olivo who was suspend five games for using a corked bat in a minor league game.

FarWestChicago
11-23-2004, 07:04 PM
The Mariners' are moronic. They don't understand the idea of how to develop talent anymore. It's a real shame. I think they have a gold mine of a kid here, I'm shocked that they are badmouthing him.This is quite the FOBB conundrum. Olivo sucked when Beane traded him because he took KW to the cleaners. Then he became a Lead Pipe Lock HOF'er when KW traded him because KW isn't Beane. What's a FOBB to do? http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

RedPinStripes
11-23-2004, 07:54 PM
Since they were able to sign Garcia, the Sox came out on top and with Freddy here, i dont miss Miquel that much.

dcb33
11-23-2004, 07:58 PM
Can anyone say Eddie Curry, sans the bad attitude? Everyone has said the guy can't call games, can't hit right handed pitching, etc. but has a lot of talent if only he'd use his head...

Jerome
11-23-2004, 07:59 PM
Anyone notice this excerpt from the article?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002098303_mari23.html



That is quite a collection of cathcing talent right there.


Lopez, the highly touted Mauer, and of course Big Ben.

I like how they throw Davis' name in there with Lopez and Mauer.

dcb33
11-23-2004, 08:07 PM
That is quite a collection of cathcing talent right there.


Lopez, the highly touted Mauer, and of course Big Ben.

I like how they throw Davis' name in there with Lopez and Mauer.
Considering Mauer can't go more than 5 games without blowing out his knee, perhaps it's for the best that we have Big Ben:redneck

MarkEdward
11-24-2004, 02:47 AM
This is quite the FOBB conundrum. Olivo sucked when Beane traded him because he took KW to the cleaners. Then he became a Lead Pipe Lock HOF'er when KW traded him because KW isn't Beane. What's a FOBB to do? http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gifIt really is funny though. Seven months ago, Miguel Olivo was considered a five-tool catcher, at least according to a few posters in this thread:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31742&highlight=Miguel+Olivo+tool+catcher

Now, according to at least one poster on this thread: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41987&page=1, Olivo *might* become a worse version of Ron Karkovice, if everything breaks right.

I guess a heck of a lot can happen in one season.

ma-gaga
11-24-2004, 03:12 AM
What's a FOBB to do? AHH!!! PANIC!!!


Actually, I'm more accurately a FOBP. I believe in this crazy theory that there is something called a "replacement level player" available at roughly the minimum salary level. And I try to judge players against this theoretical minimum level. And that young players are typically cheaper and better than their older FA counterparts. And that it is more important to compare how you hit/field compared to others that play your exact position than in relation to ALL other players...

So, I believe that you don't trade away young cheap talent for old expensive talent. I thought that KW made a steal acquiring Olivo, and made a bonehead mistake trading him away. I thought Olivo was pretty good defensively, but if he can't call a game, then he's pretty much worthless as a catcher. I think I've heard Daver say this. Is this really true? Or is it just an excuse by a pitcher when he had a bad day?!?

Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled Beane bashing! :gulp:

FarWestChicago
11-24-2004, 03:45 AM
Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled Beane bashing! :gulp:I'm not a Beane basher. I live in the Bay Area. I think people here have the right perspective about him. They think he's a good GM, but he's not deified like he is by the FOBB's. I find the circular logic and inane inconsistencies the FOBB's resort to in an attempt to make him more than human quite repugnant. We all know why they do this. And that's what I have a problem with, not their deity himself. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

FarWestChicago
11-24-2004, 03:49 AM
It really is funny though. Seven months ago, Miguel Olivo was considered a five-tool catcher, at least according to a few posters in this thread:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31742&highlight=Miguel+Olivo+tool+catcher

Now, according to at least one poster on this thread: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41987&page=1, Olivo *might* become a worse version of Ron Karkovice, if everything breaks right.

I guess a heck of a lot can happen in one season.FOBB's don't have a monopoly on silliness and twisted logic. They are just the best at it. Much like none of the FOLips can touch the Master. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

jordan23ventura
11-24-2004, 04:57 AM
Aziz was Hussein's deputy prime minister. This is Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the deposed information minister famous for his outrageous hyperbolic outbursts. There's a website of all his quotes and "where-is-he-now" updates:

welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/) :cool:
*****!!!

Thanks for the link. Some of the funniest things I've ever read are at that site, and if anyone reading this hasn't checked it out, go ahead. Not to go way off track, but a couple I think are worth noting:

"Yes, the american troops have advanced further. This will only make it easier for us to defeat them"

"Our initial assessment is that they will all die"

"The forces of American colonialism began to drop containers that produce a sound explosion, a very huge sound. I remind you that they said that their strategy is based on shock and awe. Those failed ones manufactured a type of container that has an explosive substance, which they drop. They cause a very huge explosion in terms of sound, as if the universe was shaken. After a while, you go out and you don't find anything. You find some nails, screws, pieces of metal, but the important thing here is the sound. Those failed ones think that through the huge sound explosion, people would be shocked and consequently would collapse and be defeated. What happened? The contrary. The fighters..., the masses..., and the heroic sons of the Iraqi tribes discovered this game. They will turn it against the American louts so as to shock them. Wait for surprises, God willing, to see how the US game will fail."

Flight #24
11-24-2004, 09:02 AM
It really is funny though. Seven months ago, Miguel Olivo was considered a five-tool catcher, at least according to a few posters in this thread:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31742&highlight=Miguel+Olivo+tool+catcher

Now, according to at least one poster on this thread: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41987&page=1, Olivo *might* become a worse version of Ron Karkovice, if everything breaks right.

I guess a heck of a lot can happen in one season.
Just to be clear, I wasn't evaluating Miggy as another Karko, just pointing out to that the poster who said he was already a good AL catcher because he had good D & a great arm but little O that the same description could have been used on Karko.

I for one am quite surprised at the commentary on Miguel. I always thought (based on what I'd heard) that he had talent, good character, and a good work ethic. That's usually a pretty good combination.

Baby Fisk
11-24-2004, 09:23 AM
Actually, I'm more accurately a FOBP.

What's a FOBP? :?:

Seriously, someone needs to start compiling a glossary. That person would become a FOBF. :cool:

JRIG
11-24-2004, 09:44 AM
I for one am quite surprised at the commentary on Miguel. I always thought (based on what I'd heard) that he had talent, good character, and a good work ethic. That's usually a pretty good combination.
That corked bat incident in the minors is always in the back of my mind when Olivo's name comes up.

voodoochile
11-24-2004, 10:31 AM
Actually, I'm more accurately a FOBP. I believe in this crazy theory that there is something called a "replacement level player" available at roughly the minimum salary level. And I try to judge players against this theoretical minimum level. And that young players are typically cheaper and better than their older FA counterparts. And that it is more important to compare how you hit/field compared to others that play your exact position than in relation to ALL other players...

So, I believe that you don't trade away young cheap talent for old expensive talent. I thought that KW made a steal acquiring Olivo, and made a bonehead mistake trading him away. I thought Olivo was pretty good defensively, but if he can't call a game, then he's pretty much worthless as a catcher. I think I've heard Daver say this. Is this really true? Or is it just an excuse by a pitcher when he had a bad day?!?
I belive that FOBP is "Friend of Baseball Prospectus" and I to some extent agree, but feel the whole "replacement level player" thing gets taken to far. It's a nice stat in theory, but eventually you have to decide to bag it to go anywhere at all, otherwise you are strictly running a team based on economics and not paying any attention to the "victory at all costs" mentality that you need to have to win in this game or any professional sports league.

When the time comes to pony up the extra $1M/season to get the guy you need, you do it even if it is outside their "stated replacement level" value because otherwise someone else will and suddenly you are left with a guy who is strictly "replacement level" or slightly above.

Is ARod worth $18M/season more than OViz? Not by the numbers, but which guy is going to get you closer to the promised land?

Vlad is worth more than a healthy Maggs, but if Maggs is the best RF available and you need one, you do whatever possible to land him - even if that means paying him more than Vlad.

Otherwise you get Carl Everett or Ross Gload in RF and no matter how you spin it, they just won't help you win more games.

I do understand the concept of spending money wisely and saying "we need pitching more desperately than we need those extra 50 runs a year Maggs will generate over the other guys", but if you don't desperately need to spend the money elsewhere, spend whatever it takes to improve the positions you need to improve.

idseer
11-24-2004, 10:38 AM
I belive that FOBP is "Friend of Baseball Prospectus" and I to some extent agree, but feel the whole "replacement level player" thing gets taken to far. It's a nice stat in theory, but eventually you have to decide to bag it to go anywhere at all, otherwise you are strictly running a team based on economics and not paying any attention to the "victory at all costs" mentality that you need to have to win in this game or any professional sports league.

When the time comes to pony up the extra $1M/season to get the guy you need, you do it even if it is outside their "stated replacement level" value because otherwise someone else will and suddenly you are left with a guy who is strictly "replacement level" or slightly above.

Is ARod worth $18M/season more than OViz? Not by the numbers, but which guy is going to get you closer to the promised land?

Vlad is worth more than a healthy Maggs, but if Maggs is the best RF available and you need one, you do whatever possible to land him - even if that means paying him more than Vlad.

Otherwise you get Carl Everett or Ross Gload in RF and no matter how you spin it, they just won't help you win more games.

I do understand the concept of spending money wisely and saying "we need pitching more desperately than we need those extra 50 runs a year Maggs will generate over the other guys", but if you don't desperately need to spend the money elsewhere, spend whatever it takes to improve the positions you need to improve.
to a point i could agree with you. but this can only work for a team like the yankees. and no other team can run their business like the yankees. the sox could not afford to pay magglio more than vlad money ... or even near as much. theory is ok .. reality says no.

voodoochile
11-24-2004, 10:40 AM
to a point i could agree with you. but this can only work for a team like the yankees. and no other team can run their business like the yankees. the sox could not afford to pay magglio more than vlad money ... or even near as much. theory is ok .. reality says no.
Not at every position, no.

But, they offered Maggs, 5/70 right?

You going to say that 6/90 would really break the back of the team financially? I don't buy it.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I realize that Maggs is injured and no one knows how badly and I am not suggesting the Sox should offer that now, merely using it as an example

jabrch
11-24-2004, 10:40 AM
FOBB's don't have a monopoly on silliness and twisted logic. They are just the best at it. Much like none of the FOLips can touch the Master. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif LMAO

Flight #24
11-24-2004, 10:43 AM
I do understand the concept of spending money wisely and saying "we need pitching more desperately than we need those extra 50 runs a year Maggs will generate over the other guys", but if you don't desperately need to spend the money elsewhere, spend whatever it takes to improve the positions you need to improve.
IMO, the key is whether you have the opportunity to divert those resources to strengthen other areas. Thus if the alternative to paying say Placido Polanco $7mil is to use Willie Harris but go get 2 $3mil relievers, or go get a $7mil starter, then fine. If the starter is $10mil starter and that's also deemed a poor value, and therefore all you can go get are 4 crappy $1mil players, then I agree that it's better to overpay at a position but end up helping your team more.

As we approach the non-tendered FA deadline, it'll be interesting to see if the upwards market correction maintains or starts to drop. if it maintains, I think the Sox will be forced to pay more and in terms of relative value it won't be overpaying.

johnny_mostil
11-24-2004, 10:45 AM
I'm posting the link:
Apparently, the Mariners are not too pleased with Miguel Olivo's progress. I knew he was a raw ballplayer when we had him, but I didn't know he was THAT far away from being totally solid. He's in need of a lot of extra work. Maybe KW hit that nail right on the head!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002098303_mari23.html
Did anyone else notice the nonspecific nature of the criticism? They "found he needed a lot of work to hone his considerable talents"? What work? On blocking pitches in the dirt? On calling games? Nothing, just a blanket slam.

If the White Sox organization said anything so mealy-mouthed when dissing their players, the legions of White Sox Nation here would line up to accuse The Outfit of just another classless move. My guess is that this is a negotiating ploy either to keep his value down or to signal to some third party's agent that there's a chance their client could start in Seattle if they sign cheap.

If there's anything seriously wrong with Olivo it's a complete inability to hit righthanded pitching. You can't coach that. And as for the Mariners' coaching of catchers, give me a break. I think the Red Sox would tell you Varitek still needed a lot of work after the Mariners were done with him.

idseer
11-24-2004, 10:49 AM
Not at every position, no.

But, they offered Maggs, 5/70 right?

You going to say that 6/90 would really break the back of the team financially? I don't buy it.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I realize that Maggs is injured and no one knows how badly and I am not suggesting the Sox should offer that now, merely using it as an example
first i'm talking about pre-injury.

even 5/70 as a straight deal would have killed the sox payroll (and i'm pretty sure it wasn't a straight deal).
you think 6/90 was possible? where DO you draw the line? 6/95? 6/100? 7/140?
there were plently of people here who felt (me being only one) that $10M per year for 5 years was too much. considering the owner and where else he would have cut to the bone there is no way the sox could carry a load like that and still have the requirements to put a contender together. he would have shorted pitching and had to use guys like alomar to fill out the team. i don't want a team with one or 2 good players and the rest garbage. i think we've proven that one or 2 good players and the rest a bunch of garbage is NOT the way to build a contender.

voodoochile
11-24-2004, 10:53 AM
first i'm talking about pre-injury.

even 5/70 as a straight deal would have killed the sox payroll (and i'm pretty sure it wasn't a straight deal).
you think 6/90 was possible? where DO you draw the line? 6/95? 6/100? 7/140?
there were plently of people here who felt (me being only one) that $10M per year for 5 years was too much. considering the owner and where else he would have cut to the bone there is no way the sox could carry a load like that and still have the requirements to put a contender together. he would have shorted pitching and had to use guys like alomar to fill out the team. i don't want a team with one or 2 good players and the rest garbage. i think we've proven that one or 2 good players and the rest a bunch of garbage is NOT the way to build a contender.
Ah see... Now we're talking about the same thing...

I agree, and that brings me back to my favorite topic...:D:

:selljerry

That's the problem with this team, not Magglio's contract and it will be a LONG time if ever that a JR led team manages to actually build a serious contender...

idseer
11-24-2004, 11:06 AM
Ah see... Now we're talking about the same thing...

I agree, and that brings me back to my favorite topic...:D:

:selljerry

That's the problem with this team, not Magglio's contract and it will be a LONG time if ever that a JR led team manages to actually build a serious contender...
there should be some way to distinguish 'the way things should be done' AND 'the way things should be done CONSIDERING the owner'.
i think you're running out of colors tho. :smile:

batmanZoSo
11-24-2004, 11:15 AM
Maybe he was just too young when he got called up - he did make the jump straight from AA to MLB after all.

Maybe he just isn't very coachable or has a bad memory.

Maybe he needs Ritalin.

Maybe the M's coaches suck and Olivo is regressing under their mentoring after rising higer with the good Sox coaching.

Maybe he's into grunge rock and Cafe Latte's and Seattle is just too distracting for him.

Or, maybe he never was as good as the hype surrounding him and Sox fans were just looking to jump on KW at a moment's notice.
I'll have what he's having.

voodoochile
11-24-2004, 11:19 AM
there should be some way to distinguish 'the way things should be done' AND 'the way things should be done CONSIDERING the owner'.
i think you're running out of colors tho. :smile:
I thought that's what deep pink was for. As in...

The Sox should get Vlad, RJ, Maggs, Clemens and Pedro but considering the owner, it's probably just a pipe dream...:D:

ma-gaga
11-24-2004, 05:04 PM
I belive that FOBP is "Friend of Baseball Prospectus" and I to some extent agree, but feel the whole "replacement level player" thing gets taken to far. Voodoo is spot on. I think the theory behind BP makes sense, but you HAVE to deviate from it when running a team. Baseball players are human, not little numbers on spreadsheets, and "veteran players" and guys that are good in the clubhouse or defensively sound are important to have on your team even if they hit 0.210.

I'm not a Beane basher. I live in the Bay Area. I think people here have the right perspective about him. They think he's a good GM, but he's not deified like he is by the FOBB's. I agree. "Luck" is a baseball hitting a bat in foul territory on a throw to the plate. Or an idiot fan interfering with a pop-up flyball. Luck is not striking out against Pedro Martinez with the bases loaded, or winning one game more than your run differential expects. :cool: