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Lip Man 1
11-21-2004, 08:51 PM
Interesting article on Scott Boras in the print edition of Sports Illustrated this week.

Some selected quotes:

"I need to let owners know that when they benefit players need to benefit to."

"People ask, ‘does it always have to be about money?’ Well with owners it does. Ticket prices don’t go down when the team is losing."

Ask him if, as fans believe his clients always go to the highest bidder. "I’m so glad you asked. Alex Fernandez signed for seven or eight million dollars less then he could have gotten elsewhere. Wilson Alvarez signed for 15 percent less to play in Tampa versus a city in the Northeast. Greg Maddux took 25 percent less by not going to the Yankees in 93 and Bernie Williams could have played in Arizona for 100 million but instead stayed in New York for 90 million. Shall I continue?"

"Without Goliaths, baseball would be the NFL, where you have no idea who’s any good until eight games into the season. I think Goliaths in sports are wonderful."

The entire story is on page 19 of the issue with North Carolina on the cover.

Lip

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 08:54 PM
"Without Goliaths, baseball would be the NFL, where you have no idea who’s any good until eight games into the season. I think Goliaths in sports are wonderful."

Parity. That's why the NFL is struggling to survive.

What a jerk. He should be turned loose in a mob of drunken, disappointed Pirates fans to spout off about how wonderful it is for their team to get pounded on every year.

fquaye149
11-21-2004, 10:05 PM
Parity. That's why the NFL is struggling to survive.

What a jerk. He should be turned loose in a mob of drunken, disappointed Pirates fans to spout off about how wonderful it is for their team to get pounded on every year.
i'm not sure parity is responsible for the success of the nfl. i'd be more willing to put my money on the whole 16 games a year thing.

munchman33
11-21-2004, 10:06 PM
Parity. That's why the NFL is struggling to survive.

What a jerk. He should be turned loose in a mob of drunken, disappointed Pirates fans to spout off about how wonderful it is for their team to get pounded on every year.
Agreed. In the N.F.L., any team can win it all every year. Sure, part of that is the way schedules are made. But most of it is because of the salary cap.

In baseball, the Pirates have almost no shot. They could make every decision perfectly and still not even come close. But I guess that's why baseball is doing so well...

Daver
11-21-2004, 10:10 PM
You can't compare MLB to the NFL, in any way,shape, or form.

You are comparing apples to cocanuts.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2004, 10:17 PM
The Pirates have no shot by choice. If ownership wants to spend money they can sign enough good players to make a difference. If they don't...don't bitch and moan...sell the franchise to someone who does and take your profit and go home.

I don't know if Pittsburgh gets revenue sharing money but if so what the hell are they doing with it Johnny? Maybe sticking it in their pockets like Milwaukee, Cincinnati and Kansas City perhaps eh Munch? (as documented in the past two years according to media reports)

The NFL also signs good players to long term contracts then sees those same players get cut because they 'make to much money.' Ask fans in Dallas, San Francisco and Minnesota how much they liked seeing their good teams torn up because of a 'salary cap.'

No thanks. A salary cap is just legalized larger profits for ownership.

Lip

Wealz
11-21-2004, 10:39 PM
No thanks. A salary cap is just legalized larger profits for ownership.

Lip
Did you see the contracts the NBA handed out this summer?

kittle42
11-21-2004, 11:17 PM
Did you see the contracts the NBA handed out this summer?
They wouldn't pay it if they didn;t have it.

The NBA problem (well, one of them) is these stupid guaranteed $ based on years in the league.

Oh, and the fact that, say, a guy with 6.2 PPG and 4.5 RPG can get over 4 million a year.

JKryl
11-21-2004, 11:24 PM
They wouldn't pay it if they didn;t have it.

The NBA problem (well, one of them) is these stupid guaranteed $ based on years in the league.

Oh, and the fact that, say, a guy with 6.2 PPG and 4.5 RPG can get over 4 million a year.
"They wouldn't pay it if they didn't have it"? Are you kidding? How about Arizona and Randy? How about the Marlins with their fire sale after their World Series win? How about the Expos? :?:



White Sox baseball, every day is an adventure.

Parrothead
11-21-2004, 11:34 PM
The NFL contracts are not guaranteed. They could cut anyone and not have to pay them. Big difference.

Sure with a cap the owners would probably make more money. But they may also put some of that money into the minor leagues or keeping concession/tickets prices lower. I don't know about you but I don't enjoy paying $40 to sit in the outfield.

As for the popularity of the NFL, there a few reasons.....less games, easier gambling !

Lip Man 1
11-21-2004, 11:35 PM
Daver:

Time to educate Mr. Kryl on the realities of business MLB ownership style.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
11-22-2004, 01:10 AM
As for the popularity of the NFL, there a few reasons.....less games, easier gambling !
I agree with you, Parrothead. Sure, there's the schedule-induced parity, and the salary cap helps keep all the teams competitive. The NFL also gets the colleges to pay most of their player development expenses, since there is no minor league football. (I ignore arena football for this discussion)

But the availablity to get a point spread and the chance to put a bet down; that there are 14/16 point confidence pools in millions of offices across the land;
generate more interest in EVERY game in the NFL season by MORE people than MLB will ever enjoy.

SMO
:gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2004, 09:53 AM
I think Congress needs to repeal the MLB's anti-trust exemption. A salary cap also would help MLB, IMHO, although MLB's problems can't be fixed by just these two changes alone.

munchman33
11-22-2004, 11:20 AM
The Pirates have no shot by choice. If ownership wants to spend money they can sign enough good players to make a difference. If they don't...don't bitch and moan...sell the franchise to someone who does and take your profit and go home.

I don't know if Pittsburgh gets revenue sharing money but if so what the hell are they doing with it Johnny? Maybe sticking it in their pockets like Milwaukee, Cincinnati and Kansas City perhaps eh Munch? (as documented in the past two years according to media reports)

The NFL also signs good players to long term contracts then sees those same players get cut because they 'make to much money.' Ask fans in Dallas, San Francisco and Minnesota how much they liked seeing their good teams torn up because of a 'salary cap.'

No thanks. A salary cap is just legalized larger profits for ownership.

Lip
What did the Pirates get from revenue sharing? Like six million bucks? Yeah, that'll make the difference. They're definately only a mid-grade free agent away.

munchman33
11-22-2004, 11:22 AM
You can't compare MLB to the NFL, in any way,shape, or form.

You are comparing apples to cocanuts.Or by comparing a terribly run league run by the greed of the MLBPA vs. a terrifically run league with the fans interests in mind, which is reflected in attendance and support NATIONWIDE. You're right, its completely unfair to compare the two.

fquaye149
11-22-2004, 11:53 AM
Or by comparing a terribly run league run by the greed of the MLBPA vs. a terrifically run league with the fans interests in mind, which is reflected in attendance and support NATIONWIDE. You're right, its completely unfair to compare the two.
Or a league based on capitalist principals v. a communist league that kowtows to the every whim of the sheep-like masses...

some of these NFL rule changes to increase scoring would be equivalent to the MLB moving the mound back and the fences in

but oh wait...the NFL is the IDEAL league...:(

munchman33
11-22-2004, 12:03 PM
Or a league based on capitalist principals v. a communist league that kowtows to the every whim of the sheep-like masses...

some of these NFL rule changes to increase scoring would be equivalent to the MLB moving the mound back and the fences in

but oh wait...the NFL is the IDEAL league...:(
Two words: Juiced Balls.

kittle42
11-22-2004, 01:21 PM
Or a league based on capitalist principals v. a communist league that kowtows to the every whim of the sheep-like masses...

some of these NFL rule changes to increase scoring would be equivalent to the MLB moving the mound back and the fences in

but oh wait...the NFL is the IDEAL league...:(
The NFL puts out a more glamorous and, overall, more competitive product, and part of a reason for that is their rules on salary, etc. I don't see the need to get all defensive. :smile:

fquaye149
11-22-2004, 02:08 PM
The NFL puts out a more glamorous and, overall, more competitive product, and part of a reason for that is their rules on salary, etc. I don't see the need to get all defensive. :smile:
sorry but about this time i start getting bored watching the nfl....i can watch any baseball game in august and enjoy it even it's expos pirates...but if you put me in front of a ravens/browns game or jets/dolphins or...etc. i'll probably be asleep by halftime.

SoxFan76
11-22-2004, 02:14 PM
sorry but about this time i start getting bored watching the nfl....i can watch any baseball game in august and enjoy it even it's expos pirates...but if you put me in front of a ravens/browns game or jets/dolphins or...etc. i'll probably be asleep by halftime.
Hell, most Bears games I miss the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Games like Football and Basketball just have filler time. Baseball has no clock, which is one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. Every inning, every out, every at bat counts. A football game can be over by the 3rd quarter. A baseball game never ends until the final out.

JKryl
11-23-2004, 09:58 AM
Daver:

Time to educate Mr. Kryl on the realities of business MLB ownership style.

Lip Just because one side is wrong, doesn't make the other side right. Greed is the cause of big problems on both side of the bargaining table. What really gets me though, is guys like Sammy whining about his measly 10 million a year, when he could have been cutting sugar cane for his entire life. Combine that with $40 outfield seats, and wonder no more about why people don't want to attend games anymore. Is it right to charge just as much for a season with 81 home games a year as you do for a season (NFL) with 8 home games a year? I think not.

Daver
11-23-2004, 06:06 PM
Just because one side is wrong, doesn't make the other side right. Greed is the cause of big problems on both side of the bargaining table. What really gets me though, is guys like Sammy whining about his measly 10 million a year, when he could have been cutting sugar cane for his entire life. Combine that with $40 outfield seats, and wonder no more about why people don't want to attend games anymore. Is it right to charge just as much for a season with 81 home games a year as you do for a season (NFL) with 8 home games a year? I think not.
The only one I see whining here is you.

JKryl
11-25-2004, 12:23 AM
The only one I see whining here is you.
Me whining? Why, because I'm looking out for the fan instead of the players union? Come on, only a jerk would complain because he thinks the players are under paid. Or, one of Sammy's Cub buddies, which one are you.

Daver
11-25-2004, 12:39 AM
Me whining? Why, because I'm looking out for the fan instead of the players union? Come on, only a jerk would complain because he thinks the players are under paid. Or, one of Sammy's Cub buddies, which one are you.
Calling me a jerk because you are trying to base an argument on your own opinion, that has no basis in fact, is probably not the best course.

Read up on your facts and get back to me. This site has a history of intelligent baseball debate, based on both fact and opinion, but you have to show fact to base your opinion.

I have no further interest in debating this now, your lack of knowledge makes it less than worth my time.

munchman33
11-28-2004, 08:33 AM
Calling me a jerk because you are trying to base an argument on your own opinion, that has no basis in fact, is probably not the best course.

Read up on your facts and get back to me. This site has a history of intelligent baseball debate, based on both fact and opinion, but you have to show fact to base your opinion.

I have no further interest in debating this now, your lack of knowledge makes it less than worth my time.

In all fairness Daver, before he attacked you he had a decent argument. Many people are fed up with major league baseball because of the greed of both the owners and the players.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-28-2004, 09:38 AM
In all fairness Daver, before he attacked you he had a decent argument. Many people are fed up with major league baseball because of the greed of both the owners and the players.
A decent argument? Not really. Plenty of Dominicans are cutting sugar cane but not one of them is capable of hitting major league pitching like Sammy Sosa. Just in the U.S. alone there are a lot of aging, bitter ex-college and ex-high school players (and even ex-little league players) who think it is nothing but a fluke that they aren't hitting dingers like Sammy in the majors, too. Every single one of them is full of ****.

Not one single major league ballplayer held a gun to the owner's head and demanded the salary they were offered. Furthermore there is a virtual sea of ex-college and ex-high school players (and even ex-little league players) who feel they are suitable replacements, and gosh they'll be happy to play for less than one-tenth what Sammy would be paid.

You know why the owners aren't taking up any of these washed up never-weres on their offer? Because they suck. Signing any of these pieces of **** would ruin their team, their sport, and YES! Even their profits, too.

Stop trying to play the moral equivalency game about the greed of players and owners. They're both looking out for their own interests whether they spend $100 million on payroll or $100 plus beer money.

Parrothead
11-28-2004, 10:05 AM
You know why the owners aren't taking up any of these washed up never-weres on their offer? Because they suck. Signing any of these pieces of **** would ruin their team, their sport, and YES! Even their profits, too.

Stop trying to play the moral equivalency game about the greed of players and owners. They're both looking out for their own interests whether they spend $100 million on payroll or $100 plus beer money.
They do offer these washed up never-weres jobs. The Sox have and had a bunch of guys that would qualify under these terms.

Of course the owners / players are looking out for thier own interests that is just natural. The problem is that the cost of attending a game is becoming to much for a family to do more than a few times a season. Baseball needs repeat attendance and a few games is not going to cut it. This is why the minors are flourishing. It is cheaper.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-28-2004, 10:25 AM
....
Of course the owners / players are looking out for thier own interests that is just natural. The problem is that the cost of attending a game is becoming to much for a family to do more than a few times a season. Baseball needs repeat attendance and a few games is not going to cut it. This is why the minors are flourishing. It is cheaper.
Indeed, the minor leagues are definitely flourishing. In fact I would cite this fact as the best example of why the sport of baseball has never been more popular.

MLB is still a huge value compared to the price of tickets to watch any of the other major sports teams in town. However if mom and dad are just looking to take the family out for a night of entertainment, a minor league baseball game is an attractive and reasonably-priced alternative to going to the movie theater, bowling alley, or amusement park.

Baseball fans have more alternatives for watching the game than ever before. This is a good thing, I don't care how much Jerry and Bud squeal like stuck pigs.

:reinsy :tool
"Dammit. What good is being an owner if you can't own the entire sport?"

:ohno
"Why don't you start collecting the revenue generated by new coin meters you place behind homeplate in every city, town, and village baseball diamond across America? Will that finally satisfy you?"

TornLabrum
11-28-2004, 12:54 PM
They do offer these washed up never-weres jobs. The Sox have and had a bunch of guys that would qualify under these terms.
Even the so-called never-weres who are on the Sox 40-man roster a
re a whole lot better than the people PHG is referring to. In fact even the 40th man on the roster was probably by far the best player in his town or if from a large city by far one of the best in the city. You know...all state, that sort of thing.

Lip Man 1
11-28-2004, 03:07 PM
The worst player on the worst team in MLB is still in the top 1% of everyone playing the game at any level, professional or amateur. Think about it in those terms.

Lip

voodoochile
11-28-2004, 03:13 PM
Two words: Juiced Balls.
Two more:

Juiced players

Two more:

Steroid testing

Two more:

corked bats

Two more:

bandbox stadiums

Two more:

Lowered mound

Oh, you mean they already did those things? :rolleyes:

voodoochile
11-28-2004, 03:19 PM
"Why don't you start collecting the revenue generated by new coin meters you place behind homeplate in every city, town, and village baseball diamond across America? Will that finally satisfy you?"
Did you ever read something on a mesage board and have the hairs on your neck stand up on end and think "Oh crap... they are probably going to do something just like that in the future.

Think about it. All those outfield spots behind the seats that have people just standing in them and not payin any kind of extra premium for having upgraded their crappy down the third base line way back seats.

I tell you, it won't be long before SRO meters line the OF concourse. Got a buck? You can stand here for 10 minutes. When the time is up, an usher will move you along unless you got another buck...