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View Full Version : Be happy we traded for Freddy Garcia and locked him up...


Jabroni
11-20-2004, 03:05 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1927111
Benson and the Mets closed in Friday on a three-year deal worth about $22.5 million, a baseball official with knowledge of the negotiations said on the condition of anonymity.Kris Benson is getting $7.5 million a year! :rolling: Freddy is a much better pitcher than Kris Benson and we have him locked up at $9 million a season for the next 3 years. Imagine what Freddy could have gotten if he was on the open market right now. :o:

This will put it in perspective for you guys. Keep in mind that Benson has pitched in the N.L. for his entire career and has had the advantage of not facing a DH. Conversely, Freddy has been in the A.L. for his entire career and has always had to face a DH.

Kris Benson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6167) (3-year contract worth $22.5 million)
47 - 53 career record
4.28 career ERA

Freddy Garcia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6168) (3-year contract worth $27 million)
85 - 54 career record
3.94 career ERA

:) :supernana:

jabrch
11-20-2004, 04:52 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1927111
Kris Benson is getting $7.5 million a year! :rolling: Freddy is a much better pitcher than Kris Benson and we have him locked up at $9 million a season for the next 3 years. Imagine what Freddy could have gotten if he was on the open market right now. :o:

This will put it in perspective for you guys. Keep in mind that Benson has pitched in the N.L. for his entire career and has had the advantage of not facing a DH. Conversely, Freddy has been in the A.L. for his entire career and has always had to face a DH.

Kris Benson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6167) (3-year contract worth $22.5 million)
47 - 53 career record
4.28 career ERA

Freddy Garcia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6168) (3-year contract worth $27 million)
85 - 54 career record
3.94 career ERA

:) :supernana:


Wait a second...We know KW is Stupid and JR is cheap. How did they do something that appears to have been a good move?

anewman35
11-20-2004, 04:57 PM
Wait a second...We know KW is Stupid and JR is cheap. How did they do something that appears to have been a good move?
It'll only appear to be a good move until Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo have multiple co-MVP seasons and multiple Mariners world championships.

pearso66
11-20-2004, 05:03 PM
I'd say it was a great move, in the fact that Garcia would probably get 12 mil a year in the open market. And to those who say this trade wasnt made with the intent to resign him are crazy. I can assume that was always the case. Even if they hadnt been in a penant race, KW probably knew he would be asking a lot as a free agent.

jabrch
11-20-2004, 05:17 PM
It'll only appear to be a good move until Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo have multiple co-MVP seasons and multiple Mariners world championships.



But KW was still dumb for trading the great Chad Bradford for Olivo in the first place...

broker3d
11-20-2004, 05:31 PM
you have to give up something to gt a top of the rotation pitcher like Freddy. Even if they both turn out to be all stars it was a good trade.

SoxFanTillDeath
11-20-2004, 05:39 PM
OK, I was definitely for the trade, but let me put this into perspective...

Olive, Reed, and Morse were not worth 3 mil/year for 3 years. By trading away 3 players we saved 9 million dollars. That's lame.

I liked the move before and still do, because we got half a year's worth of ball from Freddy along with the guarantee that he'll be here next year (rather than with the Yankees). The trade was worth it because we would have never been able to outbid the yankees, but don't go saying that it was worth it for the money. Nowadays 9 mil is nothing.

ilsox7
11-20-2004, 05:41 PM
Nowadays 9 mil is nothing.
Ummmm, I don't think the Sox have that viewpoint.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-20-2004, 06:19 PM
But KW was still dumb for trading the great Chad Bradford for Olivo in the first place...
I think you mean World Series Champion closer Keith Foulke (obtained in the White Flag trade) for Billy "Bite My" Koch.

Tragg
11-20-2004, 06:52 PM
Great point - and Vasquez is getting what $11 million?

MRKARNO
11-20-2004, 09:22 PM
OK, I was definitely for the trade, but let me put this into perspective...

Olive, Reed, and Morse were not worth 3 mil/year for 3 years. By trading away 3 players we saved 9 million dollars. That's lame.

I liked the move before and still do, because we got half a year's worth of ball from Freddy along with the guarantee that he'll be here next year (rather than with the Yankees). The trade was worth it because we would have never been able to outbid the yankees, but don't go saying that it was worth it for the money. Nowadays 9 mil is nothing.
You can't look at it from that perspective though. I doubt we'd even be in the running for him on the FA market and there arent many pitchers as good as him with his track record and ability out there. If another team would have traded for him, it's unlikely he would have found his way on the FA market as they probably would have locked him up.

California Sox
11-20-2004, 10:00 PM
Okay, I will grant that Garcia has been better than Benson. But in addition to making $1.5 mil more a year, look at the difference in what it cost to acquire them. Reed, Olivo, Morse vs. Ty Wigginton, Matt Peterson, and Jose Bautista. Garcia had better be A LOT better than Benson over the next three years.

KW overpaid and he almost always overpays.

dcb33
11-20-2004, 10:27 PM
You can't look at it from that perspective though. I doubt we'd even be in the running for him on the FA market and there arent many pitchers as good as him with his track record and ability out there. If another team would have traded for him, it's unlikely he would have found his way on the FA market as they probably would have locked him up.Not necessarily. Weren't you aware of the Houston Astros rental of Carlos Beltran?
Garcia could've just as easily told KW and his extension offer to go screw and tested his value on the FA market, and I'm sure he would've gotten more had he done so....

You have to wonder how much Garcia's relationship with Ozzie's daughter impacted negotiations and the dollar amount of his contract....

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/pressbox/photos/headshots_players_coaches/115230_90x135.jpg"I tell you what, man, if you want to touch my daughter, you better take whatever Jerry gives you."
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150119.jpg"What if he offers to pay me in tin cans?"
:reinsy
"It's not my fault you're whipped. Now sign on the dotted line."

jabrch
11-20-2004, 10:47 PM
KW overpaid and he almost always overpays.

Haven't we been through this before?

SouthSide_HitMen
11-20-2004, 10:58 PM
[QUOTE=SoxFanTillDeath]Olive, Reed, and Morse were not worth 3 mil/year for 3 years. By trading away 3 players we saved 9 million dollars. [QUOTE]

Sorry but all three were at the league minimum (Moore was / is still in the minors) and would cost under $1 mil / year combined for the next few years.

For a team with a mid budget in a large market, they need to start / keep as many good low cost players as possible. Both Reed and Olivo are better than the much higher paid players which will be playing C / RF this year.

If the Sox had a plan, they wouldn't have done this.

The Sox - A team without a plan outside of Bill Veeck since the Black Sox Scandal.

FightingBillini
11-20-2004, 11:04 PM
[QUOTE=SoxFanTillDeath]Olive, Reed, and Morse were not worth 3 mil/year for 3 years. By trading away 3 players we saved 9 million dollars. [QUOTE]

Sorry but all three were at the league minimum (Moore was / is still in the minors) and would cost under $1 mil / year combined for the next few years.

For a team with a mid budget in a large market, they need to start / keep as many good low cost players as possible. Both Reed and Olivo are better than the much higher paid players which will be playing C / RF this year.

If the Sox had a plan, they wouldn't have done this.

The Sox - A team without a plan outside of Bill Veeck since the Black Sox Scandal.
Reed will not play the majority of next year in the major leagues, even though Seattle will suck. Give up this arguement. Getting major league all-star talent is worth giving up prospects. At this point, thats all they are.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-20-2004, 11:12 PM
Reed will not play the majority of next year in the major leagues, even though Seattle will suck. Give up this arguement. Getting major league all-star talent is worth giving up prospects. At this point, thats all they are.
I think you are just bitter that your Illini lost to Northwestern today and you are sick of hearing this song:

Go U Northwestern break right through that line
With our colors flying we will cheer you all the time (rah rah rah!)
Go U Northwestern fight for victory
Spread far the fame of our fair name
Go Northwestern win that game

At least they are no longer on probation :)

FightingBillini
11-20-2004, 11:47 PM
I think you are just bitter that your Illini lost to Northwestern today and you are sick of hearing this song:

Go U Northwestern break right through that line
With our colors flying we will cheer you all the time (rah rah rah!)
Go U Northwestern fight for victory
Spread far the fame of our fair name
Go Northwestern win that game

At least they are no longer on probation :)


There is already a thread on this in the Parking Lot. Im not the least bit bitter that we lost. We spent the entire year losing games like this. Besides that, I didnt have hopes going into this game. You are just bitter becuase you have said time and time again in the week you have been here that we should have never traded for Garcia becuase we gave up too much and we wouldnt make the playoffs anyway. Each time you say it, you get shot down by almost everyone.

FightingBillini
11-20-2004, 11:50 PM
And another thing, SouthSide, how the hell can you average over 13 posts a day? Do you have a life?:tongue: We haven't seen such a prolific first month since Aidan.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-21-2004, 07:16 AM
There is already a thread on this in the Parking Lot. Im not the least bit bitter that we lost. We spent the entire year losing games like this. Besides that, I didnt have hopes going into this game. You are just bitter becuase you have said time and time again in the week you have been here that we should have never traded for Garcia becuase we gave up too much and we wouldnt make the playoffs anyway. Each time you say it, you get shot down by almost everyone.
Several posters agree with me and I bet the silent majority does as well. I am sure some excuse will be concocted over the next few years to defend this trade as I have read about the Todd Ritchie, Keith Foulke and other debacles of the Kenny Williams era.

Back to watching Sox highlight films including last years version just released:

2004 - Hired Ozzie, Both Cheap & Stupid - Your 2004 Chicago White Sox (NC-17) En Espanol with the F word (every 3rd word) in English.

FightingBillini
11-21-2004, 11:40 AM
Several posters agree with me and I bet the silent majority does as well. I am sure some excuse will be concocted over the next few years to defend this trade as I have read about the Todd Ritchie, Keith Foulke and other debacles of the Kenny Williams era.

Back to watching Sox highlight films including last years version just released:

2004 - Hired Ozzie, Both Cheap & Stupid - Your 2004 Chicago White Sox (NC-17) En Espanol with the F word (every 3rd word) in English.
Yes, there are several people on here who agree with you, but it is in no way a majority. Those are the same people who want to get superstars for nothing. Its not a video game. GMs have to give up players that fill other teams' needs in order to make trades. I understand that you wanted KW to trade Koch and Valentin for Mudler, Hudson and Zito, but that aint gonna happen. You people dont understand that you have to give up talent to get talent. You will never be satisfied.

CarlosMay'sThumb
11-21-2004, 11:48 AM
Wait a second...We know KW is Stupid and JR is cheap. How did they do something that appears to have been a good move?KW is stupid. I don't think spending more than anybody else in the division, however, makes you cheap.

As for this trade being a good move - there is only one way to think about it. Olivo and Reed were traded for 3 months of Garcia. Don't tell me that Garcia gave up being a free agent because he liked KW's pitch and the White Sox organization. He gave up free agency because of his relationship with Ozzie and would have signed with the Sox this offseason regardless.

There is no question that giving up Olivo and Reed for 3 months of Garcia was another huge mistake by KW.

ondafarm
11-21-2004, 11:51 AM
I like the deal now, but think that we will regret giving away Reed in a few years. There are other guys I would have given up first.

Tragg
11-21-2004, 03:11 PM
KW is stupid. I don't think spending more than anybody else in the division, however, makes you cheap.

As for this trade being a good move - there is only one way to think about it. Olivo and Reed were traded for 3 months of Garcia. Don't tell me that Garcia gave up being a free agent because he liked KW's pitch and the White Sox organization. He gave up free agency because of his relationship with Ozzie and would have signed with the Sox this offseason regardless.

There is no question that giving up Olivo and Reed for 3 months of Garcia was another huge mistake by KW.
Maybe, but based on the market thusfar, for about 4mill a year more.

pearso66
11-21-2004, 03:36 PM
KW is stupid. I don't think spending more than anybody else in the division, however, makes you cheap.

As for this trade being a good move - there is only one way to think about it. Olivo and Reed were traded for 3 months of Garcia. Don't tell me that Garcia gave up being a free agent because he liked KW's pitch and the White Sox organization. He gave up free agency because of his relationship with Ozzie and would have signed with the Sox this offseason regardless.

There is no question that giving up Olivo and Reed for 3 months of Garcia was another huge mistake by KW.


I wouldnt have gone as far as saying he would have signed with the sox this offseason regardless, If seattle didnt trade him, i heard they were gonna try to resign him, and he likely would have taken it. and even if they didnt, he would have demanded probably 5 mil a year more

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 04:06 PM
There is no question that giving up Olivo and Reed for 3 months of Garcia was another huge mistake by KW.
Uh, Thumb, did you pay any attention to Olivo after the trade? I know he passed a kidney stone in July, but he hit .215 in August and .125 in September. The Mariners stopped platooning him and he didn't perform. He started striking out at an LTP rate. :(:

Olivo just can't hit righthanded pitching at all, he never has, and he probably never will. So Williams didn't exactly trade Johnny Bench or Pudge Rodriguez there. I really liked Olivo, but I'm one who has taken deep gulps of the White Sox Fan's Electric Kool-Aid. I think any objective evaluation of him is he is destined to be yet another backup catcher, not an all-star. His career will be limited because a lot of managers don't like to platoon catchers based on opposing pitchers, they like to do it based on their own pitchers.

CarlosMay'sThumb
11-21-2004, 05:39 PM
Uh, Thumb, did you pay any attention to Olivo after the trade? I know he passed a kidney stone in July, but he hit .215 in August and .125 in September. The Mariners stopped platooning him and he didn't perform. He started striking out at an LTP rate. :(:

Olivo just can't hit righthanded pitching at all, he never has, and he probably never will. So Williams didn't exactly trade Johnny Bench or Pudge Rodriguez there. I really liked Olivo, but I'm one who has taken deep gulps of the White Sox Fan's Electric Kool-Aid. I think any objective evaluation of him is he is destined to be yet another backup catcher, not an all-star. His career will be limited because a lot of managers don't like to platoon catchers based on opposing pitchers, they like to do it based on their own pitchers.Olivo's arm and defensive abilities are what will make him a very good catcher in the American League. As a young catcher, I think he's already proven his abilities in that part of the game. Offensive abilities in a catcher in the AL are not nearly as important as the NL because of the DH. I have no doubt that Olivo will be a quality catcher for years to come. I also have no doubt that Reed will also be a quality outfielder as well.

The fact is, I wouldn't have traded Olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of Garcia.

I also don't know how anyone can say that Garcia wouldn't have signed with the Sox if he had not been traded to them earlier in the year. The man GAVE UP free agency to sign with the Sox. Why would anyone think that he would have stayed with Seattle?

fquaye149
11-21-2004, 07:06 PM
The fact is, I wouldn't have traded Olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of Garcia.

does this actually mean anything? or is it something someone says to show off how little regard they have for a legitimate number one starter?

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 07:19 PM
Olivo's arm and defensive abilities are what will make him a very good catcher in the American League. As a young catcher, I think he's already proven his abilities in that part of the game. Offensive abilities in a catcher in the AL are not nearly as important as the NL because of the DH. I have no doubt that Olivo will be a quality catcher for years to come. I also have no doubt that Reed will also be a quality outfielder as well.

He hits .190-something against righthanded pitching. That is not acceptable for a regular catcher no matter how good he is with the glove, he's made no progress, and he actually regressed. He'll be a quality catcher all right, but no star. He kills lefthanded pitching, always has, and that will guarantee him a roster space for a decade. But you can't just expect a recurring pattern to evaporate, or a player to grow out of it. Olivo will be incredibly useful to teams that don't expose his weaknesses and concentrate on his strengths. His strengths make him a backup (on a good team) unless he somehow learns to hit RHPs. Believe it or not, I think the White Sox may have actually figured this one out.

Flight #24
11-21-2004, 07:58 PM
Olivo's arm and defensive abilities are what will make him a very good catcher in the American League. As a young catcher, I think he's already proven his abilities in that part of the game. Offensive abilities in a catcher in the AL are not nearly as important as the NL because of the DH. I have no doubt that Olivo will be a quality catcher for years to come. I also have no doubt that Reed will also be a quality outfielder as well.

The fact is, I wouldn't have traded Olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of Garcia.

I also don't know how anyone can say that Garcia wouldn't have signed with the Sox if he had not been traded to them earlier in the year. The man GAVE UP free agency to sign with the Sox. Why would anyone think that he would have stayed with Seattle?
Great D + arm, weak bat? So Olivo = Ron Karkovice with some speed. Except if all the rumors about pitchers not liking to pitch to him are true, then he's Karko minus the most crucial skill for a catcher.

I'd trade Karko in a heartbeat for a #3 pitcher, let alone a #1.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-21-2004, 08:35 PM
Yes, there are several people on here who agree with you, but it is in no way a majority. Those are the same people who want to get superstars for nothing. Its not a video game. GMs have to give up players that fill other teams' needs in order to make trades. I understand that you wanted KW to trade Koch and Valentin for Mudler, Hudson and Zito, but that aint gonna happen. You people dont understand that you have to give up talent to get talent. You will never be satisfied.I have never proposed any trade and I well understand the concept of trades (such as most KW trades work out to be either bad or ugly).

Instead of making false assumptions about people who do not worship at the feet of JR and KW and have a problem with 0 playoff success in 24 years of Jerry Reinsdorf baseball, not even a single pathetic series, in a time when two expansion teams have won 3 World Series in a 6 year span and even though the Sox with above average MLB revenue and in baseball's most pathetic division cannot pass the nearly contracted Minnesota Twins and an owner even more cheap (though not as stupid) as JR (who also happened to win two World Series as well).

I think you and fellow JR apologists for over a generation of White Sox failure will never be disappointed.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-21-2004, 08:54 PM
does this actually mean anything? or is it something someone says to show off how little regard they have for a legitimate number one starter?
#1 starter? He is not even the #1 starter on the White Sox.

I said and most agree he is a #2 - 2 1/2 and would have been a good free agent signing if available.

ilsox7
11-21-2004, 08:56 PM
#1 starter? He is not even the #1 starter on the White Sox.

I said and most agree he is a #2 - 2 1/2 and would have been a good free agent signing if available.
I'd say Garcia is a #2 (on most teams) with the potential to be a #1. I am very happy we have him. Good pitching wins.

fquaye149
11-21-2004, 09:08 PM
#1 starter? He is not even the #1 starter on the White Sox.

I said and most agree he is a #2 - 2 1/2 and would have been a good free agent signing if available.
um...are you tired from building that straw man?...

look. change what I said to number two and the question remains the same:

what the **** did you mean by "i wouldn't have traded olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of garcia" ?

or were you just being a smug smart ass who could clearly do kenny's job better than kenny because of all the plans you have to shore up our pitching problems that all involve "spend more money!"

SouthSide_HitMen
11-21-2004, 09:21 PM
um...are you tired from building that straw man?...

look. change what I said to number two and the question remains the same:

what the **** did you mean by "i wouldn't have traded olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of garcia" ?

or were you just being a smug smart ass who could clearly do kenny's job better than kenny because of all the plans you have to shore up our pitching problems that all involve "spend more money!"Originally Posted by CarlosMay'sThumb
The fact is, I wouldn't have traded Olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of Garcia.

First of all, you cannot even address the correct poster but being from Green Bay and all, I wouldn't expect an you to be able to read and write.

Second, the White Sox gave up Reed who is the higher rated prospect which you omitted in your insult laced diatribe which you already backpeddled from your ridiculous claim of Garcia being a #1 starter - who WAS NOT SIGNED PAST SEPTEMBER UNTIL WELL AFTER THE TRADE which also is omitted from your "evaluation".

Third, spending more money doesn't improve the team with KW and JR making the decisions. JR has a 24 year record of failure and KW's trades and signings have shown to be lacking greatly in his effort to unseat the nearly contracted smaller market, smaller revenue cheaper owner Carl Pohlad of the Minnesota Twins just once before he is canned or someone (JR or KW) dies of old age.

JKryl
11-21-2004, 09:44 PM
I think you are just bitter that your Illini lost to Northwestern today and you are sick of hearing this song:

Go U Northwestern break right through that line
With our colors flying we will cheer you all the time (rah rah rah!)
Go U Northwestern fight for victory
Spread far the fame of our fair name
Go Northwestern win that game

At least they are no longer on probation :)


What ever happened to, "that's all right, that's OK, you'll all work for us someday". :bandance: :supernana: :bandance:

pearso66
11-21-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by CarlosMay'sThumb
The fact is, I wouldn't have traded Olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of Garcia.

First of all, you cannot even address the correct poster but being from Green Bay and all, I wouldn't expect an you to be able to read and write.

Second, the White Sox gave up Reed who is the higher rated prospect which you omitted in your insult laced diatribe which you already backpeddled from your ridiculous claim of Garcia being a #1 starter - who WAS NOT SIGNED PAST SEPTEMBER UNTIL WELL AFTER THE TRADE which also is omitted from your "evaluation".

Third, spending more money doesn't improve the team with KW and JR making the decisions. JR has a 24 year record of failure and KW's trades and signings have shown to be lacking greatly in his effort to unseat the nearly contracted smaller market, smaller revenue cheaper owner Carl Pohlad of the Minnesota Twins just once before he is canned or someone (JR or KW) dies of old age.

now correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt garcia sign an extension less than a week after being traded for? that is not well after the trade

fquaye149
11-21-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by CarlosMay'sThumb
The fact is, I wouldn't have traded Olivo's POTENTIAL for 3 months of Garcia.

First of all, you cannot even address the correct poster but being from Green Bay and all, I wouldn't expect an you to be able to read and write.

Second, the White Sox gave up Reed who is the higher rated prospect which you omitted in your insult laced diatribe which you already backpeddled from your ridiculous claim of Garcia being a #1 starter - who WAS NOT SIGNED PAST SEPTEMBER UNTIL WELL AFTER THE TRADE which also is omitted from your "evaluation".

Third, spending more money doesn't improve the team with KW and JR making the decisions. JR has a 24 year record of failure and KW's trades and signings have shown to be lacking greatly in his effort to unseat the nearly contracted smaller market, smaller revenue cheaper owner Carl Pohlad of the Minnesota Twins just once before he is canned or someone (JR or KW) dies of old age. sorry - i just assumed the person addressing the question I ASKED TO A SPECIFIC PERSON would have been THE SPECIFIC PERSON I ASKED THE QUESTION TO.

i didn't even bother to check and see who posted the original because i figured if someone was going to build a strawman it would be the man who was actually being questioned.

but apparently my geographic orientation has a direct correlation with my ability to reason....so forgive me.

jabrch
11-22-2004, 12:34 AM
Olivo's arm and defensive abilities are what will make him a very good catcher in the American League.

He looked pretty mediocre defensively to me last season - he regressed from what I had seen.

SoxxoS
11-22-2004, 12:48 AM
He looked pretty mediocre defensively to me last season - he regressed from what I had seen.

How dare you. That doesn't fall in line with WSI's communist thinking of KW is a moron!!!

jabrch
11-22-2004, 01:04 AM
How dare you. That doesn't fall in line with WSI's communist thinking of KW is a moron!!!


Cheap AND Stupid Sometimes I am amazed this team has actually managed to finish 2nd in their division 7 times and first once in the past 9 years, and to have only 3 third place finishes with 3 first place finishes during the past FIFTEEN seasons. You'd think with all the negativity we get around here sometimes that this team is perennially in last place, never fields a competitive team, and is not any fun to watch play ball.

I enjoy watching this team play - more when they win than when the lose, but I never let it make me as miserable as some people's on-line personas have become. I've been hangin here since May of 2003 - and I have never seen it as negative here as it has been in the past 2 months. I hope things get better after a FA signing or two. Cuz right now I have genuine concern for the personas that some posters have. I gotta imagine that most of that is all for show. I love the game - and the team - but geez... Sometimes I wonder if we ought to sell WSI striaghtjackets.

FightingBillini
11-22-2004, 01:49 AM
I have never proposed any trade and I well understand the concept of trades (such as most KW trades work out to be either bad or ugly).

Instead of making false assumptions about people who do not worship at the feet of JR and KW and have a problem with 0 playoff success in 24 years of Jerry Reinsdorf baseball, not even a single pathetic series, in a time when two expansion teams have won 3 World Series in a 6 year span and even though the Sox with above average MLB revenue and in baseball's most pathetic division cannot pass the nearly contracted Minnesota Twins and an owner even more cheap (though not as stupid) as JR (who also happened to win two World Series as well).

I think you and fellow JR apologists for over a generation of White Sox failure will never be disappointed.
Instead of making false assumptions about people who do not say that KW is wrong in everything he does because we haven't won, you should realize that people can both acknowledge that they made some good moves and still hate JR. He is spared the title of worst sports owner both locally and nationally only because of Mr. Blackhawk. Just because I say that the Sox made the right move trading for Garcia, it doesn't mean I approve of the direction the team is going, support Reinsdorf in any manner, or even think he is a competant owner. He doesn't want to win a championship, he wants to make a minimal risk profit (because he could make much much more if he made the team a winner, but there is more risk involved with higher payroll). I have suffered just as much as you (well, not quite as much, you are older), and I know how pathetic this regime is. I am disappointed every year we don't win the World Series, so don't say that I am a JR apologist just because I can acknowledge a good trade.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2004, 02:18 AM
Instead of making false assumptions about people who do not say that KW is wrong in everything he does because we haven't won, you should realize that people can both acknowledge that they made some good moves and still hate JR. He is spared the title of worst sports owner both locally and nationally only because of Mr. Blackhawk. Just because I say that the Sox made the right move trading for Garcia, it doesn't mean I approve of the direction the team is going, support Reinsdorf in any manner, or even think he is a competant owner. He doesn't want to win a championship, he wants to make a minimal risk profit (because he could make much much more if he made the team a winner, but there is more risk involved with higher payroll). I have suffered just as much as you (well, not quite as much, you are older), and I know how pathetic this regime is. I am disappointed every year we don't win the World Series, so don't say that I am a JR apologist just because I can acknowledge a good trade.Fine - I will take you at your word and agree to disagree regarding the Garcia trade but to agree on pretty much the jest of your post quoted above. My post (which you quoted above) was made to respond to your earlier post (posted below) lumping me in with posters (who may or may not exist - or at least in great #s - I am new to the board and will not make a guess as to what these posters may have posted earlier) who make idiotic statements / proposals / trade suggestions / demands.

I hope that there will be good White Sox developments in the upcoming "hot stove league" and 2005 Baseball Season to discuss as oppossed to rehasing 2004 and prior. I shouldn't have clicked this thread to begin with as it just made me upset (The premise that since the Mets signing Kirk Benson had anything to do with the market value (or trade evaluation) of Garcia or any of the other 100 FAs which have yet to be signed was false and not worth responding to).

I have posted on other threads that I thought the signings to date (Takatsu & Garland) were good moves and on par / better than similar players were paid (or overpaid / too many years - see Guzman, Vizquel).

My whole issue with the proposed trades in general is that the Sox do not have much depth to begin with and that you should bargin in positions of strength. As a result, I think the Sox would be better served to develop and retain the low cost players they have (which they have in Rowand, Harris, Crede, Gload, Borchard - obiviously with mixed results) and then sign players which address their holes in the budget the team has established. And I haven't like KW's obsession with the acquisition of players in the tail ends of their careers.

Obviously as a Sox fan and not management, all I can do is wait and hope that they make correct decisions so that everyone on this board (even "The Lip") will be happy - A White Sox World Series team in 2005 or next few years.

Originally Posted by FightingBillini
Yes, there are several people on here who agree with you, but it is in no way a majority. Those are the same people who want to get superstars for nothing. Its not a video game. GMs have to give up players that fill other teams' needs in order to make trades. I understand that you wanted KW to trade Koch and Valentin for Mudler, Hudson and Zito, but that aint gonna happen. You people dont understand that you have to give up talent to get talent. You will never be satisfied.

SoxFanTillDeath
11-22-2004, 10:50 AM
[QUOTE=SoxFanTillDeath]Olive, Reed, and Morse were not worth 3 mil/year for 3 years. By trading away 3 players we saved 9 million dollars. [QUOTE]

Sorry but all three were at the league minimum (Moore was / is still in the minors) and would cost under $1 mil / year combined for the next few years.

For a team with a mid budget in a large market, they need to start / keep as many good low cost players as possible. Both Reed and Olivo are better than the much higher paid players which will be playing C / RF this year.

If the Sox had a plan, they wouldn't have done this.

The Sox - A team without a plan outside of Bill Veeck since the Black Sox Scandal.

Yes, and you just proved my point by saying basically the exact same thing. Your point?

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2004, 12:48 PM
Olive, Reed, and Morse were not worth 3 mil/year for 3 years. By trading away 3 players we saved 9 million dollars.

Yes, and you just proved my point by saying basically the exact same thing. Your point?
The point being that the Sox did not "save" 9 million dollars as each of the three were at the league minimum and thus your premise is incorrect and in fact it cost the Sox $1.1 mil extra (in 2005, 1/2 that for half the season in 2004 the Sox paid for).

Here are the two payrolls (not counting Garcia):

No Trade
Olivo $300,000
Reed $300,000
Morse (Minor League contract)

With Trade
Ben Davis $1,400,000
Second Call Up League Minimum - No change matches Reed or Olivo
Minor League Contract - No change

Net Payroll impact: $1,100,000 more post trade (not including Garcia).

Flight #24
11-22-2004, 12:49 PM
The point being that the Sox did not "save" 9 million dollars as each of the three were at the league minimum and thus your premise is incorrect and in fact it cost the Sox $1.1 mil extra (in 2005, 1/2 that for half the season in 2004 the Sox paid for).

Here are the two payrolls (not counting Garcia):

No Trade
Olivo $300,000
Reed $300,000
Morse (Minor League contract)

With Trade
Ben Davis $1,400,000
Second Call Up League Minimum - No change matches Reed or Olivo
Minor League Contract - No change

Net Payroll impact: $1,100,000 more post trade (not including Garcia).
IIRC, the Sox got cash from Seattle to cover Davis' contract.

Mickster
11-22-2004, 12:50 PM
The point being that the Sox did not "save" 9 million dollars as each of the three were at the league minimum and thus your premise is incorrect and in fact it cost the Sox $1.1 mil extra (in 2005, 1/2 that for half the season in 2004 the Sox paid for).

Here are the two payrolls (not counting Garcia):

No Trade
Olivo $300,000
Reed $300,000
Morse (Minor League contract)

With Trade
Ben Davis $1,400,000
Second Call Up League Minimum - No change matches Reed or Olivo
Minor League Contract - No change

Net Payroll impact: $1,100,000 more post trade (not including Garcia).
Seattle sent $$ in the deal to cover Davis' entire contract for 2004.

Mickster
11-22-2004, 12:51 PM
IIRC, the Sox got cash from Seattle to cover Davis' contract.
Beat me by a minute! :D:

Flight #24
11-22-2004, 12:56 PM
Beat me by a minute! :D:
You snooze, you lose!:cool:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-22-2004, 12:57 PM
IIRC, the Sox got cash from Seattle to cover Davis' contract.
Is the contract covered in 2005 as well?

My point stands, the trade did not save the Sox $9 million dollars.

Based on Seattle paying for Ben Davis, it was break even for 2004 (not counting Garcia) with the million increase for 2005.

TheBull19
11-25-2004, 03:53 AM
Sorry but all three were at the league minimum (Moore was / is still in the minors) and would cost under $1 mil / year combined for the next few years.

For a team with a mid budget in a large market, they need to start / keep as many good low cost players as possible. Both Reed and Olivo are better than the much higher paid players which will be playing C / RF this year.



Yeah, but can they pitch?

TheBull19
11-25-2004, 04:20 AM
I said and most agree he is a #2 - 2 1/2 and would have been a good free agent signing if available.
If that's the case then there must only be about 12-15 #1 starters in the MLB. If you could find me more than 5 teams in the AL with a number one better than Garcia, I'll eat my hat. Look at his track record - 2 times top 10 Cy Young, 5 out 6 years 200+ IP, .612 career W/L%, led league in ERA in 2001, 5th in WHIP and K's, 7th in H/9 and ERA, and 9th in K/9 in 2004. How many guys out there do you think placed in top 10 in WHIP, ERA and K/9?

fquaye149
11-25-2004, 11:30 AM
Yeah, but can they pitch?

i bet jeremy reed can. he's pretty much capable of doing anything baseball-wise. i'm sure of it.

The next babe ruth...

or AT LEAST the next mark kotsay

johnny_mostil
11-25-2004, 11:36 AM
If that's the case then there must only be about 12-15 #1 starters in the MLB. If you could find me more than 5 teams in the AL with a number one better than Garcia, I'll eat my hat. Look at his track record - 2 times top 10 Cy Young, 5 out 6 years 200+ IP, .612 career W/L%, led league in ERA in 2001, 5th in WHIP and K's, 7th in H/9 and ERA, and 9th in K/9 in 2004. How many guys out there do you think placed in top 10 in WHIP, ERA and K/9?
You can't. The pitchers who were better than Garcia in 2004 would be Santana and Radke in Minnesota, Schilling in Boston, and Jake Westbrook. Escobar and Pedro and Mark Buehrle would be the next three. At least according to VORP.

The Cell warps our perspective by increasing run scoring by 10%.