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View Full Version : Johnson's one stipulation "that the new team be a contender..."


Mickster
11-19-2004, 05:33 PM
Here is the LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-diamondbacks-johnson&prov=ap&type=lgns) from the AP. :(:

Baby Fisk
11-19-2004, 05:36 PM
Jeez, nice backhanded slap at the D-backs too. Classy!

Justafan
11-19-2004, 05:38 PM
Randy Johnson is a certifed A-Hole! He wins a title with the D-backs and now he takes a shot at them. That said, RJ is going to N.Y. or STL, like I said all along. No surprise here.

Palehose13
11-19-2004, 05:39 PM
Randy Johnson is a certifed A-Hole! He wins a title with the D-backs and now he takes a shot at them. That said, RJ is going to N.Y. or STL, like I said all along. No surprise here.
I don't see why the White Sox would not be considered a contender, especially if he is on the team.

Flight #24
11-19-2004, 05:40 PM
``It's because at this stage of his career he's got some milestones that he'd like to achieve and he's a competitor. It's hard to work as hard as you work at age 40 (actually 41) and come to the yard and not feel like you have the very best possibility of competing.''

Sounds like he'd like a shot at a WS, but also that the 300 wins is a key. As posted elsewhere, I think this only supports that he'd prefer the Yanks/Cardinals, but would probably accept a trade to the Sox. A lineup with Frank, ARow, Lee, Everett, Uribe would give him a chance to win almost every start out. He'd also have a good shot at the playoffs, I could argue it being as good as he'd have with the Cardinals since the division competition of Twins, Tigers, Indians is a lot easier than Cubs, Astros (assuming the Stros get Clemens back).

Justafan
11-19-2004, 05:41 PM
I don't see why the White Sox would not be considered a contender, especially if he is on the team.
I meant a world series contender. Heck, anyone in the central is a contender in 2005, save the Royals.

Palehose13
11-19-2004, 05:41 PM
Sounds like he'd like a shot at a WS, but also that the 300 wins is a key. As posted elsewhere, I think this only supports that he'd prefer the Yanks/Cardinals, but would probably accept a trade to the Sox. A lineup with Frank, ARow, Lee, Everett, Uribe would give him a chance to win almost every start out. He'd also have a good shot at the playoffs, I could argue it being as good as he'd have with the Cardinals since the division competition of Twins, Tigers, Indians is a lot easier than Cubs, Astros (assuming the Stros get Clemens back).Yep.

Plus he might like not haivng to bat. Not being pulled for a PH would give him more chances to get wins and K's.

Palehose13
11-19-2004, 05:43 PM
I meant a world series contender. Heck, anyone in the central is a contender in 2005, save the Royals.
I don't think we're as far off as people would like to imagine.

Mickster
11-19-2004, 05:45 PM
You could argue that he would have an easier go with the Sox, having to face the AL Central foes 19 times each as opposed to other divisions who are far better than ours.....

Justafan
11-19-2004, 05:45 PM
I don't think we're as far off as people would like to imagine.
You have a heavy dose of black and silver kool aid in hand, don't you?:cool: Seriously, this team is not close to the series. They will compete in the central, but they will not be seeing a world series in 05.

Jurr
11-19-2004, 05:48 PM
Well, wouldn't signing him plus a couple of other plug-ins on the offensive side make us a contender?? That would be up to KW to convince him that the Sox are on the right path.

With Johnson, Buehrle, Contreras, and Garcia, combined with a solid defense and a pretty good pen, we should be in as good of shape as anybody, realistically.

Gload can hit for average, and anybody that says he's only a bench player is being blind to the fact that he has the tools to be a starter. If the guy can hit for average, some power (not 40 homers, but probably 25) and play great defense, I don't see why he wouldn't be considered a solid everyday player. Oh, but we haven't seen him play everyday, so we automatically assume that he couldn't be that guy. Assumption is the mother of all f**ups, so they say.

If we get another infield guy that can throw some leather around and an adequate outfielder (still don't know exactly why Timo wouldn't work), we'll have a solid lineup, indeed solid enough to score the 5 or so runs on average it would take to win consistently with that lineup. If you're not giving up runs via the error, 5 is all it would take to win 2/3 of your games.

No, the Sox are not the Cards. No, the Sox are definitely not the Yankees. But, the Sox have the most to offer the Diamondbacks, and they can pull this thing off if they get RJ convinced that they can compete with him.

You know how confidence helps everyone. If the hitters are confident that they don't have to put up 8 runs to win and the pitching is confident it doesn't have to strike everyone out because of the defense, things could get really good for us.

Randy Johnson is a dynamic pitcher and could really change the fortunes of this ballclub. Hopefully he can see that.

Palehose13
11-19-2004, 05:48 PM
You have a heavy dose of black and silver kool aid in hand, don't you?:cool: Seriously, this team is not close to the series. They will compete in the central, but they will not be seeing a world series in 05.I think it would be fair to hold off on the 2005 predictions until spring training and we can see what the roster looks like. I think some moves are going to be made, and I think they will be good moves. I could be wrong, but we won't know for a few months now, will we?

BTW...anything can happen in short series in October, we just gotta get there.

Justafan
11-19-2004, 05:51 PM
I think it would be fair to hold off on the 2005 predictions until spring training and we can see what the roster looks like. I think some moves are going to be made, and I think they will be good moves. I could be wrong, but we won't know for a few months now, will we?

BTW...anything can happen in short series in October, we just gotta get there.
Hey, nothing wrong with a little optimism.:gulp:

Jurr
11-19-2004, 05:55 PM
I think it would be fair to hold off on the 2005 predictions until spring training and we can see what the roster looks like. I think some moves are going to be made, and I think they will be good moves. I could be wrong, but we won't know for a few months now, will we?

BTW...anything can happen in short series in October, we just gotta get there.
Exactly...screw a bunch of paper champions. You never know what is going to happen until it happens. The Sox in 2000 looked nowhere near contenders and then made a magical run. You just never know how it's going to work out.

The Sox could make a few insignificant moves and STILL pull something off. You just never know!!!! That's the beauty of it all.

kitekrazy
11-19-2004, 09:03 PM
The Sox in 2000 looked nowhere near contenders and then made a magical run. You just never know how it's going to work out.

I think most of us have gotten a good idea since 2000. Another season of mediocrity, can't beat the Twins.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-19-2004, 11:03 PM
I still don't understand why Arizona would want Garland + Konerko ($11.9 mil) for Randy Johnson ($16 mil - or $4.1 mil more) purely for financial reasons. Johnson draws at least 10,000 more fans to the average game than most pitchers. Konerko would improve the offense, put said offense is still very bad with or without him. Maybe that is why the Sox' offer is not "the best" in Arizona's eyes (and why they want low cost Rowand included). Now if they received a few young players which they can pay $1 - $2 mil per than at least they come out $12 mil ahead to help shore their financial concerns.

If the deal is made, Jerry must approve a couple of mid level signings (Leiber / Miller / Polanco / OF) so that he has a chance to make out with playoff revenue (and the added fan base in the 2nd half if the Sox are winning). Randy alone will help sell an additional 8 - 10 k tickets per game.

Reinsdorf (and partners) have already made a capital gain of over $200 million ($12 mil purchase price = $26 mil inflation adjusted - Team worth estimated $240 mil per Forbes) plus approximately $120 - $150 million in profits already received (Net income $6 mil / year). Beilieve me Reinsdorf has made way more on this investment than all his real estate investments combined.

The Cubs and Sox were worth $280 / $230 mil respectively in 2001. In three short years the Cubs increased their worth by over $100 million while the Sox increased only $10 million. I think restoring credibility / increasing fan interest / media interest will only earn him more $ in the long run. To sign Randy Johnson would gain huge media exposure and I think would help sell tickets for full / partial season tickets as well as great game day sales on RJ starts.

If the Sox obtain RJ (and lose PK & JG) and do not follow up with addressing additional holes, I do not believe the Sox will contend as their #4 - #5 starters, weak back of bullpen / no depth and unproved infield will do them in.

Either get RJ and pony up the $ necessary to obtain 1 more SP, RP (and not Chacon), 1 inf and 1 catcher. Or pass on the deal. This is Jerry's chance to re-establish White Sox baseball on equal footing with the Cubs. Both teams were about the same (stinky) when the Tribune and Sunshine Boys came in. While both remain 0 for as the WS is concerned, the Cubs have took over the fan interest of the general public after the Sox had it in 1983. I would like to see the White Sox restored to the level they should be in. Jerry Reinsdorf, you do not have much time left to see a World Series champion. You have 1 last time to restore your credibility. Why don't you go out on top - instead of what you allowed to happed to the Bulls - (Thick and Thin - if the Sox aired that I would never attend another game until 100% of the management / ownership involved was gone- what a pathetic insult).

JKryl
11-19-2004, 11:48 PM
This sounds like just another scam to get the offer raised. Are the Sox a contender? Ask JR and KW. With RJ, and Frank healthy (a big if) we should rule the central.

Flight #24
11-20-2004, 12:38 AM
approximately $120 - $150 million in profits already received (Net income $6 mil / year).




Just curious where you got this #. Is it an extrapolation from a Forbes # or what?

SouthSide_HitMen
11-20-2004, 01:13 AM
Just curious where you got this #. Is it an extrapolation from a Forbes # or what?The Forbes 2004 Team Net Worth Info (they do this annually):

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html

White Sox - (2003 Season) -
4/04 Net Worth $248 mil
2003 Revenue $128 mil
2003 Net Income $12.8 mil (About Albert Belle's average salary - Inflation adjusted).

Cubs -
4/04 Net Worth $358 mil
2003 Revenue $156 mil
2003 Net Income $8.3 mil

Net Income are EBITDA - Pretty much same as after IDA (pre tax).
EB = Earnings before
I = Interest (In 2001 the last numbers I was able to find, both the Cubs and White Sox are 7 of the 30 teams that have a net POSITIVE interest - they ahve little to no debt as their stadiums (and purchase price) are Paid in Full. Cubs earned $4.6 mil in interest, Sox $2.2 mil in interest in 2001. I would assume the cases are similar today (though less due to falling interest rates).
T = Taxes (article doesn't disclose info - my assumptions were pre tax).
DA = Depreciation & Amortization - Both teams should be fully depreciated / amortized (purchased in 1981 for a little over $12 mil each (or $25 mil in todays's $).

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1406

2001 Team Net worth:

White Sox = $219 mil
Cubs = $253 mil

As far as net income, I DO NOT believe the Sox made $12.8 mil / year every year. I WOULD love for someone who can point to where this information is available as it would be interesting. I was also able to find the 2000 season data - The White Sox made a net $17.8 million - even more than the $9.1 mil the Cubs made : http://www.forbes.com/baseball/

You figure Jerry (and partners) have made at least 1/2 of Albert Belle's contract in today's inflation adjusted $s ($11 mil * 50% = $5.5 mil * 24 years = $132 mil total) each season $5.5 million per year. This is a business and Jerry and his partners do deserve to make a profit as does all businesses run successfully. But I think that the "poor little White Sox" are more profitable than Jerry lets on and although he isn't as stingy as Dollar Bill Wirtz, he could afford to put some money back into the business to make the total worth (when it is time to sell) and the annual income increase at a higher rate than now. The team is run conservatively, which is their right. But don't keep coming to the fans for more money and excuses when they fail to win on the field for 23 years and counting (actually 22 years - Jerry throw 1994 in the garbage (but not the profits).

Flight #24
11-20-2004, 09:29 AM
The Forbes 2004 Team Net Worth Info (they do this annually):

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2004/0426/066tab.html

White Sox - (2003 Season) -
4/04 Net Worth $248 mil
2003 Revenue $128 mil
2003 Net Income $12.8 mil (About Albert Belle's average salary - Inflation adjusted).

Cubs -
4/04 Net Worth $358 mil
2003 Revenue $156 mil
2003 Net Income $8.3 mil

Net Income are EBITDA - Pretty much same as after IDA (pre tax).
EB = Earnings before
I = Interest (In 2001 the last numbers I was able to find, both the Cubs and White Sox are 7 of the 30 teams that have a net POSITIVE interest - they ahve little to no debt as their stadiums (and purchase price) are Paid in Full. Cubs earned $4.6 mil in interest, Sox $2.2 mil in interest in 2001. I would assume the cases are similar today (though less due to falling interest rates).
T = Taxes (article doesn't disclose info - my assumptions were pre tax).
DA = Depreciation & Amortization - Both teams should be fully depreciated / amortized (purchased in 1981 for a little over $12 mil each (or $25 mil in todays's $).

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1406

2001 Team Net worth:

White Sox = $219 mil
Cubs = $253 mil

As far as net income, I DO NOT believe the Sox made $12.8 mil / year every year. I WOULD love for someone who can point to where this information is available as it would be interesting. I was also able to find the 2000 season data - The White Sox made a net $17.8 million - even more than the $9.1 mil the Cubs made : http://www.forbes.com/baseball/

You figure Jerry (and partners) have made at least 1/2 of Albert Belle's contract in today's inflation adjusted $s ($11 mil * 50% = $5.5 mil * 24 years = $132 mil total) each season $5.5 million per year. This is a business and Jerry and his partners do deserve to make a profit as does all businesses run successfully. But I think that the "poor little White Sox" are more profitable than Jerry lets on and although he isn't as stingy as Dollar Bill Wirtz, he could afford to put some money back into the business to make the total worth (when it is time to sell) and the annual income increase at a higher rate than now. The team is run conservatively, which is their right. But don't keep coming to the fans for more money and excuses when they fail to win on the field for 23 years and counting (actually 22 years - Jerry throw 1994 in the garbage (but not the profits).The $12.8 they made last year was pretty close to the roughly 10mil increase in season opening salary from 2003 to 2004. Which would jive with their contention that they put all available revenue increases back into the team, but only after they earn them.

Without having historical #s, I can't say whether that holds true for prior years or not. I'd guess they made money in 2000, and probably came close to break even since then.

jabrch
11-20-2004, 10:14 AM
The $12.8 they made last year was pretty close to the roughly 10mil increase in season opening salary from 2003 to 2004. Which would jive with their contention that they put all available revenue increases back into the team, but only after they earn them.

I consider this totally reasonable...spend money AFTER you earn it. I don't carry around 30,000 in credit card debt - why should I expect the ownership committe to take on 30mm in debt?

CarlosMay'sThumb
11-20-2004, 10:15 AM
Sounds like he'd like a shot at a WS, but also that the 300 wins is a key. As posted elsewhere, I think this only supports that he'd prefer the Yanks/Cardinals, but would probably accept a trade to the Sox. A lineup with Frank, ARow, Lee, Everett, Uribe would give him a chance to win almost every start out. He'd also have a good shot at the playoffs, I could argue it being as good as he'd have with the Cardinals since the division competition of Twins, Tigers, Indians is a lot easier than Cubs, Astros (assuming the Stros get Clemens back).This is just so much Kool-Aid drinking nonsense. Can you honestly imagine an impartial Randy Johnson looking at a lineup of "Frank(isn't he injured?),ARow (who?,he says), Lee, Everett, Uribe (who?, again)" and thinking they're a contender? A contender for what, third place in the central?

Unbelievable.:rolleyes:

jabrch
11-20-2004, 10:23 AM
This is just so much Kool-Aid drinking nonsense. Can you honestly imagine an impartial Randy Johnson looking at a lineup of "Frank(isn't he injured?),ARow (who?,he says), Lee, Everett, Uribe (who?, again)" and thinking they're a contender? A contender for what, third place in the central?

Unbelievable.:rolleyes:


You don't think that team, with still salary space left for one more mid - upper tier FA would be a contender? Not a favorite, but neither was AZ when they won. But it would be a contender - right?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-20-2004, 11:02 AM
I think Randy Johnson is smarter than many of you pulling your puds give him credit for. RJ knows the difference between contender and pretender. The Sox fall in the later category.

Some of you need to take a cold shower. Our pennant chances depend on Minnesota falling flat on their face -- same as the past three years. That's not what Randy Johnson has in mind.

Stop stroking yourselves thinking otherwise.

nodiggity59
11-20-2004, 11:25 AM
Our best hope is if the Yanks get desperate and pay 2/3rds of Vazquez's salary. He would then be had for $3-4mil for the next 3 years. Combined w/ clearing $11mil from Konerko/Garland, this would leave us at $57mil and about $13mil to spend to get a 5th starter, bullpen help, and another bat (preferably behind the plate).

Palehose13
11-20-2004, 11:31 AM
I think Randy Johnson is smarter than many of you pulling your puds give him credit for. RJ knows the difference between contender and pretender. The Sox fall in the later category.

Some of you need to take a cold shower. Our pennant chances depend on Minnesota falling flat on their face -- same as the past three years. That's not what Randy Johnson has in mind.

Stop stroking yourselves thinking otherwise.
What pud? :?:

:tongue:

soxfan26
11-20-2004, 11:56 AM
Our pennant chances depend on Minnesota falling flat on their face
But on paper the Sox are a better team than Minnesota

oldcomiskey
11-20-2004, 01:03 PM
Randy Johnson is a certifed A-Hole! He wins a title with the D-backs and now he takes a shot at them. That said, RJ is going to N.Y. or STL, like I said all along. No surprise here.

where exactly did he take a shot at them?

Lip Man 1
11-20-2004, 01:11 PM
Jabrch and the **** say: "I consider this totally reasonable...spend money AFTER you earn it. I don't carry around 30,000 in credit card debt - why should I expect the ownership committee to take on 30mm in debt?"

Because the ownership committee extorted a publicly financed stadium THEN got perhaps the best deal in all of MLB that guarantees the state will purchase 300,000 tickets any season attendance falls below a certain level.

Allright...let me hear ya! A one...a two... 'So it's root-root-root for Uncle Jerry's wallet... if the Sox don't win, who cares...'

Lip

cornball
11-20-2004, 02:02 PM
I think Randy Johnson is smarter than many of you pulling your puds give him credit for. RJ knows the difference between contender and pretender. The Sox fall in the later category.

Some of you need to take a cold shower. Our pennant chances depend on Minnesota falling flat on their face -- same as the past three years. That's not what Randy Johnson has in mind.

Stop stroking yourselves thinking otherwise.
PHG you took the words right out of my mouth, exactly. RJ has something like 30-40 win before he hits 300, which I am sure is a huge goal of his. Plus he wants a chance to be in the Series, again. Is his best chance to do this with the Sox.....NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Perception is reality in many cases and the national media has no reason to pay attention to the Sox. No superstar, not because of the W/L record....there is no reason. The Sox get no exposure nationally. With that said, the Sox are not considered a contender across this nation.

They have shown no commitment to excellance, you cant with the budget self imposed on themselves. So why would the best pitcher is baseball want to come here versus the Cards and Yanks again, I forgot?

Foulke You
11-20-2004, 06:40 PM
I think Randy Johnson is smarter than many of you pulling your puds give him credit for. RJ knows the difference between contender and pretender. The Sox fall in the later category.

Some of you need to take a cold shower. Our pennant chances depend on Minnesota falling flat on their face -- same as the past three years. That's not what Randy Johnson has in mind.

Stop stroking yourselves thinking otherwise.
While taking a moment to stop stroking myself... :cool:

I happen to think that Randy Johnson is aware of the impact he could make on a team like the White Sox in the AL Central. Honestly, if the White Sox offer up the best package to Arizona, then he will be in a White Sox uniform.

I put the Sox chances of landing Randy Johnson about as good as any of the other 4 teams. The package they are offering is what the D'backs are looking for. Power hitting 1B Konerko to replace Richie Sexson, and Garland, a young cheap pitcher to replace Johnson.

Some people are losing sight that the Diamondbacks are in more control of this situation than Randy Johnson. They can always take Johnson off the market if they feel the top contenders like NY and STL aren't offering what they want and go back to having a nice pitching side show to sell tickets at Bank One Ballpark.