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Takatsufan
11-17-2004, 09:35 PM
:?: I do, I guess.

CubKilla
11-17-2004, 09:39 PM
Yes.

But it won't happen.

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 09:13 AM
Who wouldn't? I'd also like a Lamborgini and a condo on the beach in Hawaii. There's a small problem of money, though.

mjharrison72
11-18-2004, 09:33 AM
Who wouldn't? I'd also like a Lamborgini and a condo on the beach in Hawaii. There's a small problem of money, though.
I threw out something interesting when a buddy mentioned the Sox going after Randy Johnson... if they do trade for Johnson, I think they will have to consider going for broke this year and signing someone like Renteria. You can't park your Lamborghini in that shabby two-car garage, right?

kittle42
11-18-2004, 10:00 AM
I threw out something interesting when a buddy mentioned the Sox going after Randy Johnson... if they do trade for Johnson, I think they will have to consider going for broke this year and signing someone like Renteria. You can't park your Lamborghini in that shabby two-car garage, right?
Um....earth to mjharrison72...we live in Reinsy World, not a rational place.

Maximo
11-18-2004, 10:01 AM
Who wouldn't? I'd also like a Lamborgini and a condo on the beach in Hawaii. There's a small problem of money, though.
What about a "killer dinette set"? Let's see......Renteria or dinette set.......Renteria or dinette set..........that's a tough one.

mjharrison72
11-18-2004, 10:38 AM
Um....earth to mjharrison72...we live in Reinsy World, not a rational place.
Sorry... I think I had too much sugar in my coffee this morning.

nitetrain8601
11-18-2004, 03:57 PM
I definately would look at him. Plus you kill two birds with one stone. You get a SS who has good defense and a decent OBP. Plus you piss off the Cubs. I think he's worth it at 10 mil a year. He's just as good as Cabrera defensively and he's way better offensively. Plus KW loves big name players. Seems like a great fit.

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:00 PM
I definately would look at him. Plus you kill two birds with one stone. You get a SS who has good defense and a decent OBP. Plus you piss off the Cubs. I think he's worth it at 10 mil a year. He's just as good as Cabrera defensively and he's way better offensively. Plus KW loves big name players. Seems like a great fit.Yeah. The hell with getting players who address needs. Let's blow big bucks to piss of the Cubs.

nitetrain8601
11-18-2004, 04:06 PM
Yeah. The hell with getting players who address needs. Let's blow big bucks to piss of the Cubs.
Obviously you didn't read the part about him being an as good as fielder as Cabrera if not better and him playing SS?

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:09 PM
Obviously you didn't read the part about him being an as good as fielder as Cabrera if not better and him playing SS?Great. Let's get a SS to piss off the Cubs instead of getting a decent P.

nitetrain8601
11-18-2004, 04:12 PM
Great. Let's get a SS to piss off the Cubs instead of getting a decent P.
Oh right, you're the one who thinks Willie Harris is the solution. Or do you actually think Pavano is going to sign here?

Willie 4 2005 MVP!!!!!!!!!

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:13 PM
Or do you actually think Pavano is going to sign here?I sure as hell hope not.

Palehose13
11-18-2004, 04:21 PM
Great. Let's get a SS to piss off the Cubs instead of getting a decent P.
I say get a SS AND a Pitcher.

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:25 PM
I say get a SS AND a Pitcher.No Carlos Beltran, too?

Palehose13
11-18-2004, 04:26 PM
No Carlos Beltran, too?
Nope. I'm hopeful, but not crazy. :wink:

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:28 PM
Nope. I'm hopeful, but not crazy. :wink:A SS would be fine, but that's WAY down on my priority list after a starting pitcher, bullpen help, another OF and an upgrade at C.

Palehose13
11-18-2004, 04:35 PM
A SS would be fine, but that's WAY down on my priority list after a starting pitcher, bullpen help, another OF and an upgrade at C.
See...we have similar ideas, just different priorities. My wishlist is: Starting pitcher, reliever(s), Middle infield, C, and OF. But then again, I am flexible on the last three...I really want high OBP guys.

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:39 PM
See...we have similar ideas, just different priorities. My wishlist is: Starting pitcher, reliever(s), Middle infield, C, and OF. But then again, I am flexible on the last three...I really want high OBP guys.I want a high OBP guy, too. But ideally, he would replace the weakest part of the roster. Right now we have a big zero where Maggs used to be and Ben Davis as half of the catching duo. In my book, those spots are much weaker than the middle IF. If we could get Kendall or Pierre and some pitching help, I'd be more than happy to watch Crede-Uribe-Harris hold down the IF.

Palehose13
11-18-2004, 04:54 PM
I want a high OBP guy, too. But ideally, he would replace the weakest part of the roster. Right now we have a big zero where Maggs used to be and Ben Davis as half of the catching duo. In my book, those spots are much weaker than the middle IF. If we could get Kendall or Pierre and some pitching help, I'd be more than happy to watch Crede-Uribe-Harris hold down the IF.
I'm with you, but Harris can play CF too...unless they decided to forget about that.

tadscout
11-18-2004, 04:55 PM
I want a high OBP guy, too. But ideally, he would replace the weakest part of the roster. Right now we have a big zero where Maggs used to be and Ben Davis as half of the catching duo. In my book, those spots are much weaker than the middle IF. If we could get Kendall or Pierre and some pitching help, I'd be more than happy to watch Crede-Uribe-Harris hold down the IF.I really agree with that.... you could really play some awsome Ozzie ball w/ those guys in your line up and some better pitching...

Ol' No. 2
11-18-2004, 04:57 PM
I'm with you, but Harris can play CF too...unless they decided to forget about that.That's always a possibility, but I think they see him as the 2B of the future, so they're going to want to play him there if at all possible.

maurice
11-18-2004, 05:20 PM
Harris can play CF too...
Also, Uribe can play 3B . . . which means Renteria can be used to fill the OBP hole named "Crede." Then, you sign a veteran reliever and trade Konerko for Johnson, which leaves you with an outstanding-defensive / decent-OBP / lefty-righty-balanced infield and an adequate lineup consisting of:

Renteria - SS
Rowand - CF
Lee - LF
Thomas - DH
Everett - RF
Uribe - 3B
Gload - 1B
Davis / Burke - C
Harris - 2B

This entire thread should be in deeppink. It makes too much sense, so JR never will allow it to happen.

Palehose13
11-18-2004, 06:09 PM
Also, Uribe can play 3B . . . which means Renteria can be used to fill the OBP hole named "Crede." Then, you sign a veteran reliever and trade Konerko for Johnson, which leaves you with an outstanding-defensive / decent-OBP / lefty-righty-balanced infield and an adequate lineup consisting of:

Renteria - SS
Rowand - CF
Lee - LF
Thomas - DH
Everett - RF
Uribe - 3B
Gload - 1B
Davis / Burke - C
Harris - 2B

This entire thread should be in deeppink. It makes too much sense, so JR never will allow it to happen.
Yep. The flexibility of Harris and Uribe should allow the Sox to go after a Middle Infielder, and I would love to see Uribe take over at 3rd if someone like Renteria was signed.

Ol' No. 2
11-19-2004, 09:16 AM
Yep. The flexibility of Harris and Uribe should allow the Sox to go after a Middle Infielder, and I would love to see Uribe take over at 3rd if someone like Renteria was signed.How does it make more sense to replace Crede (.239) than Davis (.209) or to get Crazy Carl out of the OF?

Palehose13
11-19-2004, 10:26 AM
How does it make more sense to replace Crede (.239) than Davis (.209) or to get Crazy Carl out of the OF?
One needs to be replaced. IMO, there are too many options right now. What I would do (if GM) is look at the options for replacement. If someone like Kendall can't be had, but a high OBP "grinder" infielder can then I would go for it.

There are quite a few options, but we both agree that the first priority should be pitching. Now, in my mind, here are the questions we are looking at:

Holes: Valentin and Ordonez are gone. Uribe and Carl are the fillers right now. However, Uribe is flexible so any IF(other than 1B) will do to fill the hole at SS. Rowand can play center or corner, so flexibility is there also.

Konerko: I think he's gone. I would rather have him traded than CLee. His value is high now, so...who do we get for him? A pitcher? Kendall? OF? ??? I think Gload/Thomas will be fine at 1B for 2005.

Crede: Expendable if we get someone for IF. Hopefully teams are interested in trading for him. I've given up, but I don't think KW has. :(:

Catcher: If Kendall or Miller can't be had and Varitek dosn't lower his price...then what?

So yeah...I think it is going to be a busy offseason. IMO, It's way too early to predict the chain of events that will happen...until that first domino falls.

MiamiSpartan
11-20-2004, 05:19 AM
The guy can field, and come up with big hits. I was sitting behind home plate at game 7 of the 97 Series, and jad a great view of his single up the middle to win the first World Series for the Marlins....

beck72
11-20-2004, 05:55 AM
[QUOTE=Palehose13]One needs to be replaced. IMO, there are too many options right now. What I would do (if GM) is look at the options for replacement. If someone like Kendall can't be had, but a high OBP "grinder" infielder can then I would go for it.

What about Corey Koskie for 3B, with his career .373 OBP? He fits in the grinder mold. The only offer on the table for him is a 2 yr, $7-7.5 mill deal from Minn. Paying Koskie $4 mill a yr for 3 yrs would be very affordable. Then the Sox could use Crede in a trade for additional help [my target would be Kendall as well though Crede prob. wouldn't go to Pitt]. At the least, Crede could get another decent arm for the bullpen from a team like Milw. or TB.

jabrch
11-20-2004, 09:20 AM
No Carlos Beltran, too?

Come on #2 - Most estimates have our 2005 opening day payroll between 70 and 75mm. Given the money freed up by losing Magglio and Mano, don't we have money to afford to sign renteria (about 10mm?) and still make the RJ move if that's on the table for us? Or maybe even to sign Renteria and a Pavano type guy? - I haven't done the math yet? I don't think it is as bad as you make it sound.

jabrch
11-20-2004, 09:21 AM
[QUOTE=Palehose13]What about Corey Koskie for 3B, with his career .373 OBP? He fits in the grinder mold. The only offer on the table for him is a 2 yr, $7-7.5 mill deal from Minn. Paying Koskie $4 mill a yr for 3 yrs would be very affordable. Then the Sox could use Crede in a trade for additional help [my target would be Kendall as well though Crede prob. wouldn't go to Pitt]. At the least, Crede could get another decent arm for the bullpen from a team like Milw. or TB.

Why wouldn't Crede go to Pitt? He'd go where he's told - he has no say. Now Pitt on the other hand may not want him - but that's a different story. Depending on how much of Kendall's deal Pitt would eat, I'd be all for that.

Win1ForMe
11-20-2004, 10:54 AM
I'm swiping this idea from hold2dibber in the Derek Lowe thread, but let's look at it this way:

Player A: .287 AVG/.319 OBP/.401 SLG (.728 OPS) --- 10 HR's, 72 RBI
Player B: .283 AVG/.327 OBP/.506 SLG (.833 OPS) --- 23 HR's, 74 RBI

Player A is Renteria and Player B is Juan Uribe. I really don't see how Renteria is worth the $8M+ he's likely to get in free agency.

nitetrain8601
11-20-2004, 02:50 PM
Player A has Golden Glove defense and can hit, bunt, and steal bases. He also is a consistent hitter and you know what you're going to get with him. He has batted a career .289. He has batted .307avg over the past 3 years while posting .330avg as the highest of that 3 year span.

Player B doesn't and can't. He batted a career .263 and over the past 3 years .259 while the highest posted avg for the season was .283 this past season.

Player A is Edgar Renteria, and Player B is Juan Uribe. Numbers will tell you that Renteria isn't on the decline at all, while Juan Uribe had a fluke year. Jim Parque of hitting possibly.

beckett21
11-20-2004, 03:11 PM
...Juan Uribe had a fluke year. Jim Parque of hitting possibly.
Uh, let's not get carried away here.

nitetrain8601
11-20-2004, 04:00 PM
Uh, let's not get carried away here.
I said possibly. Probably not, but the chances of him being close to the player Edgar is are not even close.

beckett21
11-20-2004, 04:46 PM
I said possibly. Probably not, but the chances of him being close to the player Edgar is are not even close.
I don't know that I completely agree with that statement.

Nonetheless, on the whole I agree with you and would welcome Renteria with open arms. Uribe can move to second.

johnny_mostil
11-20-2004, 04:50 PM
Player A has Golden Glove defense and can hit, bunt, and steal bases. He also is a consistent hitter and you know what you're going to get with him. He has batted a career .289. He has batted .307avg over the past 3 years while posting .330avg as the highest of that 3 year span.

Player B doesn't and can't. He batted a career .263 and over the past 3 years .259 while the highest posted avg for the season was .283 this past season.

Player A is Edgar Renteria, and Player B is Juan Uribe. Numbers will tell you that Renteria isn't on the decline at all, while Juan Uribe had a fluke year. Jim Parque of hitting possibly.
Player A is five years older than player B.

johnny_mostil
11-20-2004, 04:54 PM
Player A has Golden Glove defense and can hit, bunt, and steal bases.
Player B doesn't and can't.

Uribe is actually a significantly better defensive shortstop than Renteria, he has twice the isolated power, and stealing bases is a useless waste of time. I'm all for signing Renteria but he should be the one moving to second base, because Uribe's range is demonstrably better, and range matters more than anything else at SS. Actually, I think about it, and that's what I'd want to do.

Win1ForMe
11-20-2004, 06:35 PM
Player A has Golden Glove defense and can hit, bunt, and steal bases. He also is a consistent hitter and you know what you're going to get with him. He has batted a career .289. He has batted .307avg over the past 3 years.
Yeah, but that batting avg. is skewed heavily by what looks to be a career year for Renteria in 2003. He's only had 3 out of 9 seasons where he finished with an average higher than .300. His career .346 OBP is pretty pedestrian as well.

Player B doesn't and can't. He batted a career .263 and over the past 3 years .259 while the highest posted avg for the season was .283 this past season.
Yes, but don't forget Juan Uribe is only 25 while Renteria is 29. And I'm not so much making a case that Juan Uribe is a better player than Renteria, just that Edgar isn't worth his asking price.

beckett21
11-20-2004, 06:39 PM
Yeah, but that batting avg. is skewed heavily by what looks to be a career year for Renteria in 2003. He's only had 3 out of 9 seasons where he finished with an average higher than .300. His career .346 OBP is pretty pedestrian as well.


Yes, but don't forget Juan Uribe is only 25 while Renteria is 29. And I'm not so much making a case that Juan Uribe is a better player than Renteria, just that Edgar isn't worth his asking price. Well stated. Renteria would be an upgrade over Harris/Valentin, but I wouldn't anoint him as a savior either.

I'll take him, but as you point out he will probably be overpaid. It probably would be wise to spend our resources elsewhere unless there is a significant payroll bump in the offing.

:reinsy

Yeah, right.

nitetrain8601
11-20-2004, 08:58 PM
Uribe is actually a significantly better defensive shortstop than Renteria, he has twice the isolated power, and stealing bases is a useless waste of time. I'm all for signing Renteria but he should be the one moving to second base, because Uribe's range is demonstrably better, and range matters more than anything else at SS. Actually, I think about it, and that's what I'd want to do.
I suggest you get off the crackrock. How many GG's has Renteria won and how many has Uribe won? Case closed. It's amazing how people are willing to overpay for a 38 year old Omar Vizquel who isn't as good as a hitter as Uribe and rivals Willie Harris for hitting, but they are not willing to spend on a 29 year old(entering prime years of career) player who plays the same position with better and more consistant offense than any of our players with the exception of our boppers.

johnny_mostil
11-20-2004, 09:11 PM
I suggest you get off the crackrock. How many GG's has Renteria won and how many has Uribe won? Case closed.
So what? Gold Gloves are routinely given to players who aren't really the best fielders in the league at their position. One year they gave Raffy Palmeiro a GG, which was preposterous first because he didn't even play 1B regularly that year and second because he was never even a good defender. Tony Fernandez won GGs from 1986 to 1989 long after Ozzie Guillen was clearly a better player, but the voters didn't figure out that turf makes playing SS easier. A-Rod even won two gold gloves, I assume with his BAT because he was pretty decent but hardly brilliant with the Rangers. Alfredo Griffin was given a GG in 1985, which was just nuts. Renteria's GGs mean that a lot of people like him. I like him too. But he doesn't throw very many people out, and he never has, and it's just hard for me to believe that the best shortstop in the National League wouldn't pick up an extra assist every other game or so over Juan Uribe. Instead, it's Uribe picking up an extra chance every blessed game for three years. It's not a statistical anomaly when it repeats consistently. So maybe you should look in the mirror for the crack pipe? Or maybe you just should lay off the "hot dogs"?:smile:

Brian26
11-20-2004, 10:36 PM
Who are the 17 people who said they DON'T want Renteria? Who wouldn't want him? The question wasn't whether or not JR would pay for him. The question was, "Who wants Renteria?". It's a no brainer.

FightingBillini
11-20-2004, 10:53 PM
So what? Gold Gloves are routinely given to players who aren't really the best fielders in the league at their position. One year they gave Raffy Palmeiro a GG, which was preposterous first because he didn't even play 1B regularly that year and second because he was never even a good defender. Tony Fernandez won GGs from 1986 to 1989 long after Ozzie Guillen was clearly a better player, but the voters didn't figure out that turf makes playing SS easier. A-Rod even won two gold gloves, I assume with his BAT because he was pretty decent but hardly brilliant with the Rangers. Alfredo Griffin was given a GG in 1985, which was just nuts. Renteria's GGs mean that a lot of people like him. I like him too. But he doesn't throw very many people out, and he never has, and it's just hard for me to believe that the best shortstop in the National League wouldn't pick up an extra assist every other game or so over Juan Uribe. Instead, it's Uribe picking up an extra chance every blessed game for three years. It's not a statistical anomaly when it repeats consistently. So maybe you should look in the mirror for the crack pipe? Or maybe you just should lay off the "hot dogs"?:smile:
How can you make a list of all-time joke gold glovers without including the 2004 AL shortstop Derek Jeter?!

Yey! Post No. 300!!! :gulp: :bandance: :bandance:

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 10:44 AM
How can you make a list of all-time joke gold glovers without including the 2004 AL shortstop Derek Jeter?!

Lots of people want to give Derek a gold glove for his relay throw in the series a few years ago. Jeter's smart, one heck of a hitter, and has done some amazing stuff, but his overall reaction time and range is nothing special, as you know.

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Who are the 17 people who said they DON'T want Renteria? Who wouldn't want him? The question wasn't whether or not JR would pay for him. The question was, "Who wants Renteria?". It's a no brainer.
If Renteria means Willie Harris doesn't play, of course I want him if he's free. But the Sox seem hell bent on making Uribe into a third baseman or a utility man. I don't really like the idea of rotating keystone combination players, and Uribe isn't a good hitter for a third baseman.

Anyway, the key is keeping Timo Perez off the (@$&$@ field. Based on what I've heard and read, that is futile, because the organization thinks he's useful. Spending the money on somebody -- anybody -- who makes the organization flush a .250 hitter with no power who is allergic to walks would be superior to spending the money on somebody who pushes Juan Uribe or even Crede to the bench.

nitetrain8601
11-21-2004, 11:16 AM
If Renteria means Willie Harris doesn't play, of course I want him if he's free. But the Sox seem hell bent on making Uribe into a third baseman or a utility man. I don't really like the idea of rotating keystone combination players, and Uribe isn't a good hitter for a third baseman.

Anyway, the key is keeping Timo Perez off the (@$&$@ field. Based on what I've heard and read, that is futile, because the organization thinks he's useful. Spending the money on somebody -- anybody -- who makes the organization flush a .250 hitter with no power who is allergic to walks would be superior to spending the money on somebody who pushes Juan Uribe or even Crede to the bench.
They want Crede to be their everyday 3B this year because they think he could break out like Beltre and want to give him one more year. Uribe would be moved to 2B. That's what they were going to do when they were ready to sign Vizquel. Uribe and Crede are going to be the opening day starters barring spring training injury.

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 11:40 AM
They want Crede to be their everyday 3B this year because they think he could break out like Beltre and want to give him one more year. Uribe would be moved to 2B. That's what they were going to do when they were ready to sign Vizquel. Uribe and Crede are going to be the opening day starters barring spring training injury.
"'Cause they're the kings of wishful thinking..."

Then they will have to trade Willie Harris. A backup CF/backup 2B who can't play shorstop and third base is a roster liability in an era where you carry only four or five subs. Yeah, I know Burke can play third, but now we're getting silly and the defensive substitutions are a game of the Towers of Hanoi.

Harris can't stay on the roster unless he's a starter at second base. He doesn't have sensible bench skills.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-21-2004, 07:26 PM
Anyway, the key is keeping Timo Perez off the (@$&$@ field. Based on what I've heard and read, that is futile, because the organization thinks he's useful. Spending the money on somebody -- anybody -- who makes the organization flush a .250 hitter with no power who is allergic to walks would be superior to spending the money on somebody who pushes Juan Uribe or even Crede to the bench.Perez (as was Guillen) are pathetic .260 hitters. At least Ozzie Guillen could field :?: . Timo really has no use period and is not worth the league minimum (or a spot on the 40 man). But then again that is what "Ozzie ball" is all about.

Recent White Sox .260 hitters with no power and no walks

Ozzie Guillen 6686 AB, 239 BB, .264 BA, .287 OBP, SB 169, 108 CS
Timo Perez 1371 AB, 71 BB, .269 BA, .306 OBP, SB 20, 20 CS


League leading caught stealing.
League leading sacrifices (ie intentional outs)

Ozzieball - Wasting baserunners and outs since 2004.

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 07:30 PM
Recent White Sox .260 hitters with no power and no walks

Ozzie Guillen 6686 AB, 239 BB, .264 BA, .287 OBP, SB 169, 108 CS
Timo Perez 1371 AB, 71 BB, .269 BA, .306 OBP, SB 20, 20 CS

It's way worse than this. Ozzie was a shortstop. Perez is a corner outfielder who can't play center adequately. You can live with a SS or a C who can't hit. A RF who can't hit is inexcusable.

SoxFan76
11-21-2004, 07:33 PM
As I recall, Timo had a lot of timely hits for the White Sox this year. Is he a starter? No, but he is a great bench player. Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it.

johnny_mostil
11-21-2004, 07:40 PM
As I recall, Timo had a lot of timely hits for the White Sox this year. Is he a starter? No, but he is a great bench player. Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it.
Timo'd be OK as a pinch hitter on an NL team.

He also destroyed an awful lot of innings by using up an awful lot of outs. No one else can get a timely hit if there's nobody on base, and Timo was, well, hardly ever on base. You just don't remember the 242-odd outs he made because most of them were routine. It's not just the fires you nourish, it's also the fires you [don't] start.

But ultimately the Sox lost 79 games in some part because they were playing guys at four positions (C, SS, 3B, RF) who were basically not productive.

broker3d
11-21-2004, 07:44 PM
to say that Timo is a waste is senseless. He was a great bench guy last year. He had a ton of key hits for us. :mad:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-21-2004, 07:57 PM
to say that Timo is a waste is senseless. He was a great bench guy last year. He had a ton of key hits for us. :mad:
Timo Perez 2004 Salary: $850,000

Plate Appearances 317

Batting Average .246 (SP Carlos Zambrano .229)

On Base % .277 (Jose Valnetine .284 (batting .216), SP Adam Eaton .263))

Slugging % .338 (Juan Pierre Slg .407, Alex "Frigging" Sanchez .386, SP Randy Wolf .511, SP Livan Hernandez .370)

VORP Negative 7.1
(Only Scott Spiezo, Marlon Byrd, Henry Blanco, Mark DeRosa, Neifi Perez, Geoff Blum, Chad Moeller & Desi Relford had more plate appearances and a worse performance in all of baseballin 2004).

An outfield corner with stats like these is worth keeping?

Optimal Timo Perez Salary (Independent league / Asst Manager at McDonalds)
Optimal Timo Perez # of ABs in a season: 0

SOXSINCE'70
11-22-2004, 12:13 PM
I'd love Rentaria.:bandance: :bandance:

I'd also love a 3 way with Teri Hatcher and Eva Longoria,
a mansion in the country and a fleet of vintage 60's
Chevy Impalas.:D: :D: :D:

But I don't see it happening anytime soon.:(: