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kittle42
11-17-2004, 08:48 AM
From today's Sun-Times:



Defense and pitching were the Sox' focuses heading into the offseason, but Guzman didn't offer what they were looking for at shortstop. If anything, the Sox are leaning toward remaining with what they have.
"We're comfortable with [Juan] Uribe and Willie Harris [at second base],'' Williams said. "That's not to slight what Guzman has done. We know how he has played well against us, but we feel Uribe can be just as good. We don't want to regress in one area for flash in another area.''
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox17.html

Kilroy
11-17-2004, 08:51 AM
From today's Sun-Times:




http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox17.html

That actually is good news. Signing Guzman would have been just for the sake of signing someone. Focus on pitching...

JRIG
11-17-2004, 08:55 AM
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I prefer Uribe and Harris to the signing of Guzman or Vizquel...considering price and committent issues.

The problem...big problem...is we still haven't addressed our OBP issue. Ordonez is gone and his on-base ability with him. Whether it's Kendall or somebody else, we need someone who can bat leadoff and get on base desperately.

infohawk
11-17-2004, 09:04 AM
From today's Sun-Times:




http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox17.html
I think KW showed very sound judgment in not overpaying for Vizquel or Guzman. Uribe will be a solid starter for the Sox. He has shown some ability to hit and I think his defense is excellent.

Willie puts up some decent numbers commensurate with his experience in the league. My only concern with Willie is that his offense appears inconsistent from game to game. I haven't done any statistical research, but it appears to me from watching games that Willie will go 0-4 for a couple games and then go 3-4 or 4-4 in a game. Does this seem correct to you guys?

If the Sox can upgrade at second base they should, but Willie has some potential on offense, plays good defense and is young enough to still expect improvement. That said, he should probably be hitting toward the bottom of the order until he demonstrates the ability to reach base consistently. For improving the offense, I would love for the Sox to get someone like Kendall to lead off. Anything to increase the .OBP at the top of the order.

Put the rest of the money into pitching!

Palehose13
11-17-2004, 09:15 AM
From today's Sun-Times:




http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox17.html
This doesn't bother me at all. Pitching is by far what is most needed. I'm optimistically hoping for a solid 5 man rotation.

gosox41
11-17-2004, 09:27 AM
I think KW showed very sound judgment in not overpaying for Vizquel or Guzman. Uribe will be a solid starter for the Sox. He has shown some ability to hit and I think his defense is excellent.

Willie puts up some decent numbers commensurate with his experience in the league. My only concern with Willie is that his offense appears inconsistent from game to game. I haven't done any statistical research, but it appears to me from watching games that Willie will go 0-4 for a couple games and then go 3-4 or 4-4 in a game. Does this seem correct to you guys?

If the Sox can upgrade at second base they should, but Willie has some potential on offense, plays good defense and is young enough to still expect improvement. That said, he should probably be hitting toward the bottom of the order until he demonstrates the ability to reach base consistently. For improving the offense, I would love for the Sox to get someone like Kendall to lead off. Anything to increase the .OBP at the top of the order.

Put the rest of the money into pitching!
It depends on how you deifne overpaying. According to tthe paper KW wanted to give Vizquel a 2 year $10 mill. contact, or $5 mill per year avg. That would have been overpaying.

But I'm all for getting pitching.


Bob

Flight #24
11-17-2004, 09:36 AM
It depends on how you deifne overpaying. According to tthe paper KW wanted to give Vizquel a 2 year $10 mill. contact, or $5 mill per year avg. That would have been overpaying.

But I'm all for getting pitching.


Bob
While I would have agreed with that statement a week ago, it appears that the market is moving upwards as evidenced by the Guzman & Vizquel deals. Now, that could slow, especially as we get closer to non-tenders hitting the market, but that bump could also carry over to other positions, which would then make the $5mil/yr a relative bargain.

In any case, it's not surprising that KW read the market reasonably well in terms of the value of a player given the support he has (Gilbert & Hahn, who were both ex-agents). The "overpaid" argument for Vizquel loses a lot of strength when the whole market shifts upwards.

Of course, for Guzman it maintains its strength, but that's because he just plain sucks.

mjharrison72
11-17-2004, 09:40 AM
I think KW showed very sound judgment in not overpaying for Vizquel or Guzman. Uribe will be a solid starter for the Sox. He has shown some ability to hit and I think his defense is excellent.

Willie puts up some decent numbers commensurate with his experience in the league. My only concern with Willie is that his offense appears inconsistent from game to game. I haven't done any statistical research, but it appears to me from watching games that Willie will go 0-4 for a couple games and then go 3-4 or 4-4 in a game. Does this seem correct to you guys?

If the Sox can upgrade at second base they should, but Willie has some potential on offense, plays good defense and is young enough to still expect improvement. That said, he should probably be hitting toward the bottom of the order until he demonstrates the ability to reach base consistently. For improving the offense, I would love for the Sox to get someone like Kendall to lead off. Anything to increase the .OBP at the top of the order.

Put the rest of the money into pitching!
Willie always seemed inconsistent to me, too, but looking at his game-by-game, he did have a 13-game hitting streak between 26 May and 11 June, when his average rose as high as .323. Of course, he followed that with five games with no hits and was down to .276 by the end of June.

The thing about Willie Harris is, for all the talk we've had about the importance of OBP, he's one of the few guys who was not hitting for power all last year; he finished with a .343 OBP, not the worst ever, and he's at the right price to see if he's going to continue improving.

I was so releived to see the Sox didn't throw money away on Guzman (though sort of interested to see him come to DC... the Nationals will have a decent infield next year), and I do hope they stick to the plan of cultivating Uribe and Harris. I think they both have tremendous potential, and the key is pitching and finding one big bat to try to replace Maggs' production.

FarmerAndy
11-17-2004, 09:42 AM
There was a stretch early last year when both Willie and Uribe were both on fire and hitting over .300. If you look at that stretch, what was difference from the rest of the season? I'll tell you what: No Robbie Alomar, and Valentin was on the disabled list.

I think Uribe and Harris should get the full-time jobs at SS and 2B, respectively. I think they proved they can handle it last season. They didn't become inconsistent until Valentin came off the D.L. and Ozzie started doing the old Manuel style tinkering. Then, on top of that, K.W. threw Alomar back into the mix. They both played fine when they knew they were going to be out there everyday. After that, they were as inconsistent as the lineup that was put out everyday.

mjharrison72
11-17-2004, 09:48 AM
There was a stretch early last year when both Willie and Uribe were both on fire and hitting over .300. If you look at that stretch, what was difference from the rest of the season? I'll tell you what: No Robbie Alomar, and Valentin was on the disabled list.

I think Uribe and Harris should get the full-time jobs at SS and 2B, respectively. I think they proved they can handle it last season. They didn't become inconsistent until Valentin came off the D.L. and Ozzie started doing the old Manuel style tinkering. Then, on top of that, K.W. threw Alomar back into the mix. They both played fine when they knew they were going to be out there everyday. After that, they were as inconsistent as the lineup that was put out everyday.
Let me ask a question... if that's the case, does Wilson Valdez become the utility backup to Crede, Uribe and Harris? Are there other guys who can play the infield? Because it seems to me we need to either bring someone up or sign someone to back these guys up, especially Crede.

jabrch
11-17-2004, 10:09 AM
It depends on how you deifne overpaying. According to tthe paper KW wanted to give Vizquel a 2 year $10 mill. contact, or $5 mill per year avg. That would have been overpaying.

But I'm all for getting pitching.


Bob
Not if the market predicates a higher value... You can't accurately predict what his production will be this season - so you can't tell me we wouldn't get value for your money any more than I can tell you we would. But you can look and decide if the signing was fair value based on today's market. Since Vizquel ended up getting 3/14, and KW reportedly offered only 2/8 or 9, then it looks like he did not overpay. He made the right move - drawing a line in the sand where he could still afford to do other things - PITCHING. This is a fine outcome - I'd have taken Vizquel at 2/8, but Vizquel at 4/16 would have been displeasing to me. In any case - it looks like he still will have a good sum of money available to go after pitching.

FarmerAndy
11-17-2004, 10:09 AM
Let me ask a question... if that's the case, does Wilson Valdez become the utility backup to Crede, Uribe and Harris? Are there other guys who can play the infield? Because it seems to me we need to either bring someone up or sign someone to back these guys up, especially Crede.
I wish they had never let Tony G. go.

I know I've been very hard on Valentin in the past. I just had no faith in him as our everyday SS. That being said, I think he would be a fine backup infielder. He can fill in at any position, and come up with a clutch hit from time to time. I don't know if anybody is going to pick him up as a full-time starter. On the cheap, he'd be a quality backup. However, I'm not quite so sure it would work with the Sox. With his past here, I could see the Sox quick to put him out there on a regular basis the first time Uribe or Harris had a bad week, and we be back to tinker-town again.

I don't believe in bringing up prospects to sit on the bench, it doesn't do them any good. I think you need a cheap, past his prime but still half decent kind of guy on the bench. I've been so up to my ears with school and work, that I haven't really been able to look at what's available out there. So it's easy for me to say what I think we need, but I don't know if anybody is available that fits the description. As I said, I think Valentin fits the description of the kind of player I'm talking about, but I don't know if there can be a smooth transition of a full-timer to a part-timer on the same team. What other players out there, of about the same caliber, are available? Anyone?

jabrch
11-17-2004, 10:12 AM
Let me ask a question... if that's the case, does Wilson Valdez become the utility backup to Crede, Uribe and Harris? Are there other guys who can play the infield? Because it seems to me we need to either bring someone up or sign someone to back these guys up, especially Crede.
I'm sure we get a UI later in FA. A Graffanino type guy. Also, if we need to move someone for injury or rest, we'd likely move Uribe and play Valdez at SS. Uribe is pretty flexible defensively.

mjharrison72
11-17-2004, 10:12 AM
I wish they had never let Tony G. go.

I know I've been very hard on Valentin in the past. I just had no faith in him as our everyday SS. That being said, I think he would be a fine backup infielder. He can fill in at any position, and come up with a clutch hit from time to time. I don't know if anybody is going to pick him up as a full-time starter. On the cheap, he'd be a quality backup. However, I'm not quite so sure it would work with the Sox. With his past here, I could see the Sox quick to put him out there on a regular basis the first time Uribe or Harris had a bad week, and we be back to tinker-town again.

I don't believe in bringing up prospects to sit on the bench, it doesn't do them any good. I think you need a cheap, past his prime but still half decent kind of guy on the bench. I've been so up to my ears with school and work, that I haven't really been able to look at what's available out there. So it's easy for me to say what I think we need, but I don't know if anybody is available that fits the description. As I said, I think Valentin fits the description of the kind of player I'm talking about, but I don't know if there can be a smooth transition of a full-timer to a part-timer on the same team. What other players out there, of about the same caliber, are available? Anyone?
So basically, we need Roberto Alomar for another year.

kittle42
11-17-2004, 10:21 AM
I have no problem with not getting Vizquel or the even worse Guzman. What I worry about is that this is just an indication of the same excuse we'll get for every other position come Soxfest.

Same old, same old.

NonetheLoaiza
11-17-2004, 10:32 AM
Not that I thought Guzman would have been a good signing, but the more I hear of off seasone moves (or lackthereof) the stronger that I feel KW is not going to add anyone else. SP and bullpen help is what I am looking for the most. I hope we get that.

DMarte708
11-17-2004, 10:51 AM
Not that I thought Guzman would have been a good signing, but the more I hear of off seasone moves (or lackthereof) the stronger that I feel KW is not going to add anyone else. SP and bullpen help is what I am looking for the most. I hope we get that.
He won't and its time we all accept it.

I dont' believe this, "Williams showed great judgement in not signing Vizquel of Guzman." NO, he was simply outbid and was left cowering in a corner, attempting to rationalize how Uribe and Harris we're better options. If that were the case then why did the Sox even offer Vizquel a two year, 10 million dollar contract?

jabrch
11-17-2004, 11:02 AM
[QUOTE=NonetheLoaiza] the more I hear of off seasone moves (or lackthereof) the stronger that I feel KW is not going to add anyone else.QUOTE]


Then you will be pleasantly surprised. Cuz there is no way we don't add anyone...

Palehose13
11-17-2004, 11:04 AM
He won't and its time we all accept it.

I dont' believe this, "Williams showed great judgement in not signing Vizquel of Guzman." NO, he was simply outbid and was left cowering in a corner, attempting to rationalize how Uribe and Harris we're better options. If that were the case then why did the Sox even offer Vizquel a two year, 10 million dollar contract?
Do you know somehting that I don't? Did we even bid on Guzman?

Ol' No. 2
11-17-2004, 12:10 PM
The Sox main need on offense is a leadoff hitter. I like Rowand better hitting #2, and while I like Willie a lot, I wouldn't go into 2005 counting on him to be the leadoff hitter. He's still too inconsistant (not unheard of in a young player) and I think would be better in the #9 position. The best choices for a leadoff hitter seem to me to be Jason Kendall or Juan Pierre. Both have the advantage of not replacing a young player who'd still developing, so you get the full benefit rather than just the difference between him and the player he replaces. What it would take to get one of these guys is an open question, but I have no doubt that Kenny could do it if they made it a priority.

gosox41
11-17-2004, 12:11 PM
Do you know somehting that I don't? Did we even bid on Guzman?
I've seen specualtion on the net that there were 2 teams interested in Guzman and one was ruled to be the Sox. It didn't mention the other team, but we know not it was Washington.


Bob

southsider17
11-17-2004, 12:14 PM
I heard the other was Seattle.

FarmerAndy
11-17-2004, 12:17 PM
So basically, we need Roberto Alomar for another year.
Can't play short and 3rd.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-17-2004, 09:51 PM
Here is the scary part of the article (and one bright spot)

Meanwhile, a source has indicated the Sox have an interest in acquiring Rockies reliever Shawn Chacon, an All-Star in 2003.....

Chacon, who made $1.85 million last season, could be the answer for the lone opening in the Sox' bullpen or for the vacant spot in the rotation.
Chacon had been used exclusively as a starter in his previous three seasons, going 11-8 with a 4.60 ERA in his All-Star season of 2003. He led the National League in victories in early July that year before experiencing elbow pain that eventually cut his season short. Still, the Sox' interest in Chacon is expected to be as a backup plan at best.
__________________________________________________ __________________

Shawn Chacon 2004 - 7.11 ERA, 63 1/3 IP, 71 H, 50 ER, 52 BB, 52 K

Wilbur Wood today can top these numbers.

Now the Bright Spot:


After naming pitching and defense as his priorities, Williams might be regretting that decision. The Sox' known desire to improve on defense might have convinced the Giants to up the ante on Vizquel. "The more you talk about things, the less likely you are able to get anything accomplished,'' Williams said. :D:

Takatsufan
11-17-2004, 09:55 PM
http://cubssuck.knup.net/images/gallery/thumbs/Cubs_Blasphemy.jpg (http://cubssuck.knup.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery&page=inline&id=2&catid=1&limitstart=0)

Jabroni
11-17-2004, 10:00 PM
I heard the other was Seattle.That's what I heard too. I'm glad KW didn't even consider Guzman.