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LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 06:34 AM
on WSI I have found:

That many White Sox fans are really Beane Sprouts. How did two teams with payrolls roughly the same as the A's win the 2002 and 2003 World Series? While the Beane Sprouts have sat at home after the first round. If you like Beane so much be a damn A's fan.

KW can't do anything right in the minds of posters on here. If Freddy Garcia wins 25 games and the Cy Young next season somebody will still say it was a bad deal. Even if Reed becomes an average major leaguer. Notice that Wells and Fogg are just average starters. And guys like Myette, Rausch, etc all still haven't done much.

No patience with younger players. Just a couple years ago people were debating about Rowand. He finally turned the corner. Samething with Carlos Lee. Good thing KW didn't trade them. But if KW did trade them back then and they became good players, I'm sure people sure say KW should have never traded them.

People have selective memories. Foulke had worn out his welcome in Chicago. He needed to go. He lost the closer job and wasn't happy. Koch didn't work out but Foulke only stayed with the A's for a year. Did that trade work out well for either team? Oh that's right, the genius, Beane, never makes a bad trade. Riiiiiiiight.

I do love the passion of other White Sox fans. I like the debates, though I do shake my head at times over the bitterness of some fans.

And I would rather have the Florida Marlins situation where in the last five years they won one world series, than the A's where they went to the playoffs four of the fives year but lost in the first round each year. Wouldn't you?

JRIG
11-16-2004, 06:53 AM
People have selective memories. Foulke had worn out his welcome in Chicago. He needed to go. He lost the closer job and wasn't happy. Koch didn't work out but Foulke only stayed with the A's for a year. Did that trade work out well for either team? Oh that's right, the genius, Beane, never makes a bad trade. Riiiiiiiight.


Are you seriously going to argue that was not a good trade for the A's?

We've been down this path so many times before. Even as one of the major critics of KW here, I'd at least like to hold of on more criticism or praise until he makes at least one move this off-season.

jabrch
11-16-2004, 07:05 AM
LAWS - I agree with you - 100%. But you are forgetting the core axiom you need to know to evaluate this team. Cheap and Stupid No matter what they do, JR will be considered cheap and KW will be considered stupid by a number of vocal and senior people here. In presence of clear evidence at times that they do things that are neither cheap nor stupid - they are still considered to be such. We have armchair owners who would dig into their own pockets to spend 30mm more on this team. We have armchair GMs who would make better trades and better signings.

I'm all for being critical of the team when they deserve it - but it seems like every day people dig hard to find something new to criticize when we haven't even gotten to 12/7 yet. Even if the Sox raise payroll, sign a strong FA SP, and fill a few holes here and there, there are still a group of people who will whine and bitch that it isn't enough - and will all-knowingly proclaim that the season is over and that we have no chance. For this - they will blame the owner or the GM - but the primary suggestion they will make is spend 30mm more.

Just an observation...I am finding that I like WSI a lot more in-season than during the offseason. Everyone seems nicer around here in-season. (I know the logical solution to this....thanks)

SOXSINCE'70
11-16-2004, 08:24 AM
on WSI I have found:

That many White Sox fans are really Beane Sprouts. How did two teams with payrolls roughly the same as the A's win the 2002 and 2003 World Series? While the Beane Sprouts have sat at home after the first round. If you like Beane so much be a damn A's fan.

KW can't do anything right in the minds of posters on here. If Freddy Garcia wins 25 games and the Cy Young next season somebody will still say it was a bad deal. Even if Reed becomes an average major leaguer. Notice that Wells and Fogg are just average starters. And guys like Myette, Rausch, etc all still haven't done much.

No patience with younger players. Just a couple years ago people were debating about Rowand. He finally turned the corner. Samething with Carlos Lee. Good thing KW didn't trade them. But if KW did trade them back then and they became good players, I'm sure people sure say KW should have never traded them.

People have selective memories. Foulke had worn out his welcome in Chicago. He needed to go. He lost the closer job and wasn't happy. Koch didn't work out but Foulke only stayed with the A's for a year. Did that trade work out well for either team? Oh that's right, the genius, Beane, never makes a bad trade. Riiiiiiiight.

I do love the passion of other White Sox fans. I like the debates, though I do shake my head at times over the bitterness of some fans.

And I would rather have the Florida Marlins situation where in the last five years they won one world series, than the A's where they went to the playoffs four of the fives year but lost in the first round each year. Wouldn't you?Have you suffered the decades of despair a White Sox fan has??
MLB history has the A's winning WS titles in 1972,'73,'74 and '89.
The White Sox haven't won a WS SINCE 1917!!
As far as bitterness goes,let's see how you feel when it's been
88 years without a championship and ownership's frugality
isn't helping matters much.Most Sox fans head into 2005
believing there's no way this team will ever win a championship
in their lifetime!! :(: :(: :angry: :angry:

voodoochile
11-16-2004, 10:41 AM
LAWS - I agree with you - 100%. But you are forgetting the core axiom you need to know to evaluate this team. Cheap and Stupid No matter what they do, JR will be considered cheap and KW will be considered stupid by a number of vocal and senior people here. In presence of clear evidence at times that they do things that are neither cheap nor stupid - they are still considered to be such. We have armchair owners who would dig into their own pockets to spend 30mm more on this team. We have armchair GMs who would make better trades and better signings.

I'm all for being critical of the team when they deserve it - but it seems like every day people dig hard to find something new to criticize when we haven't even gotten to 12/7 yet. Even if the Sox raise payroll, sign a strong FA SP, and fill a few holes here and there, there are still a group of people who will whine and bitch that it isn't enough - and will all-knowingly proclaim that the season is over and that we have no chance. For this - they will blame the owner or the GM - but the primary suggestion they will make is spend 30mm more.

Just an observation...I am finding that I like WSI a lot more in-season than during the offseason. Everyone seems nicer around here in-season. (I know the logical solution to this....thanks)
That's not true. I'll stop ragging on JR for being cheap the minute he... (drum roll please)

STOPS BEING CHEAP!

Thank you... I'll be here all week...:bandance:

jabrch
11-16-2004, 10:46 AM
That's not true. I'll stop ragging on JR for being cheap the minute he... (drum roll please)

STOPS BEING CHEAP!

Thank you... I'll be here all week...:bandance:
LMAO.. nice one Voodoo!

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 11:01 AM
on WSI I have found:

That many White Sox fans are really Beane Sprouts. How did two teams with payrolls roughly the same as the A's win the 2002 and 2003 World Series? While the Beane Sprouts have sat at home after the first round. If you like Beane so much be a damn A's fan.

KW can't do anything right in the minds of posters on here. If Freddy Garcia wins 25 games and the Cy Young next season somebody will still say it was a bad deal. Even if Reed becomes an average major leaguer. Notice that Wells and Fogg are just average starters. And guys like Myette, Rausch, etc all still haven't done much.

No patience with younger players. Just a couple years ago people were debating about Rowand. He finally turned the corner. Samething with Carlos Lee. Good thing KW didn't trade them. But if KW did trade them back then and they became good players, I'm sure people sure say KW should have never traded them.

People have selective memories. Foulke had worn out his welcome in Chicago. He needed to go. He lost the closer job and wasn't happy. Koch didn't work out but Foulke only stayed with the A's for a year. Did that trade work out well for either team? Oh that's right, the genius, Beane, never makes a bad trade. Riiiiiiiight.

I do love the passion of other White Sox fans. I like the debates, though I do shake my head at times over the bitterness of some fans.

And I would rather have the Florida Marlins situation where in the last five years they won one world series, than the A's where they went to the playoffs four of the fives year but lost in the first round each year. Wouldn't you?You also forgot the main maxim: If we have him, he can't be any good.

beckett21
11-16-2004, 11:04 AM
We've been down this path so many times before. Even as one of the major critics of KW here, I'd at least like to hold of on more criticism or praise until he makes at least one move this off-season.
That sounds fair to me.

This is going to be an important offseason in regards to the future of KW. I'd like to maintain faith that he will make some good moves. But it is far too early to judge one way or another.

SOXSINCE'70
11-16-2004, 01:01 PM
I'll stop ragging on JR for being cheap the minute he... (drum roll please)

STOPS BEING CHEAP!

Thank you... I'll be here all week...:bandance:
I'M WITH YOU!!:angry: :angry: :angry:

Lip Man 1
11-16-2004, 01:26 PM
Jabrch says: Cheap and Stupid No matter what they do, JR will be considered cheap and KW will be considered stupid by a number of vocal and senior people here.

Given Uncle Jerry's stellar record as steward of the White Sox franchise and the number of World Series appearances in the past 24 years, I can't imagine why folks would feel that way.

Lip

NonetheLoaiza
11-16-2004, 01:38 PM
I do love the passion of other White Sox fans. I like the debates, though I do shake my head at times over the bitterness of some fans.

Bitterness? Reinsdorf is our owner and we havent won a world series since before the red sox last won one. a certain amount of bitterness is going to come out.

lowesox
11-16-2004, 01:58 PM
I'll admit it - I have my back up against KW. (I don't really think too much about JR because I generally think a good GM should be able to win with what JR shells out.) But my problem with KW is a philosophical one. As a fan, I like young, hungry teams - built with the goal of becoming a dynasty. I feel KW only thinks about the short-term - taking one kick at the can now, instead of 4-5 over the next few years. And, I think that's why he usually pays a steep price (whether it's in $s or in players) to make acquisitions.

I honestly don't believe his philosophy will work. In fact, I've resigned myself to the belief that the white sox will never win a world series so long as KW is their GM.

MAybe that's why I'm always writing bitter posts about Kenny - for me, he's ruined White Sox baseball. Since about half way through last season, I've lost my passion for the watching the games (and turned to Notre Dame - which happens to be in an even worse situation). In the last week or two I've tuned in, hoping that this offseason will be different.

For the record, I'm sure a few of you will take exception to this post - but I thought I'd write it to explain why I'm usually in opposition to what KW does.

akingamongstmen
11-16-2004, 02:04 PM
You also forgot the main maxim: If we have him, he can't be any good.
So true. Particularly when it comes to Mark Buerhle "not being an ace." Sure, this team has some holes, but we've got a few good ballplayers to build around (Buerhle, Garcia, CLee, Uribe, Rowand, Marte).

Dolanski
11-16-2004, 02:04 PM
That's not true. I'll stop ragging on JR for being cheap the minute he... (drum roll please)

STOPS BEING CHEAP!

Thank you... I'll be here all week...:bandance:
I remember when Jerry wasn't cheap...he brought Albert Belle to the SouthSide. We thought for an off season that we were going to have the most potent hitting attack since the 27 Yankees...then it all went horribly wrong, starting with Jaime Navarro.

Its not just about how much you spend, but rather how wisely you spend it.

Oh, and I agree with LAWS, this place is filled with bitter and angry fans that are never satisfied, never happy, second guess everything, and just complain, complain, complain. Fire Ozzie, Fire Kenny, Fire Jerry, if you hate this organization so much, there is a rich team just to the north willing to spend as much as you want. Go be a Cub fan and quit your gripin'

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 02:20 PM
I'll admit it - I have my back up against KW. (I don't really think too much about JR because I generally think a good GM should be able to win with what JR shells out.) But my problem with KW is a philosophical one. As a fan, I like young, hungry teams - built with the goal of becoming a dynasty. I feel KW only thinks about the short-term - taking one kick at the can now, instead of 4-5 over the next few years. And, I think that's why he usually pays a steep price (whether it's in $s or in players) to make acquisitions.

I honestly don't believe his philosophy will work. In fact, I've resigned myself to the belief that the white sox will never win a world series so long as KW is their GM.

MAybe that's why I'm always writing bitter posts about Kenny - for me, he's ruined White Sox baseball. Since about half way through last season, I've lost my passion for the watching the games (and turned to Notre Dame - which happens to be in an even worse situation). In the last week or two I've tuned in, hoping that this offseason will be different.

For the record, I'm sure a few of you will take exception to this post - but I thought I'd write it to explain why I'm usually in opposition to what KW does.
I have to agree with this assessment. Kenny Williams is on his fifth year as GM and the team is worse than when he arrived. (Are you better off then you were as a Sox fan four years ago?)

I do applaud some of the low budget bargins he picked up over the past few years (Uribe, Takatsu, Loaiza). But to continue to get 35 year old players (and up) when you clearly need to build a solid foundation of younger players given the cost realities is the fundamental reason why the White Sox will only exist on the margins of contention until they work on retaining and developing players they can use and keep at the MLB level. I am sick of watching dozens of fifth starters, all of which are pathetic.

Thomas, Everett, Contreras, R Alomar (you know Kenny is dying for a 3 peat) are not the core of a contending team for the rest of this decade. 3 out of every 10 Sox dollars go to these three players (Alomar not included).

The Sox need to build around C Lee, P Konerko, A Rowand, M Buehrle, D Marte. (and now F Garcia as well though nobody has explained how his last three years conclude that he is the must acquire "ace" which was worth two low cost good everyday starters).

PaulDrake
11-16-2004, 02:28 PM
I remember when Jerry wasn't cheap...he brought Albert Belle to the SouthSide. We thought for an off season that we were going to have the most potent hitting attack since the 27 Yankees...then it all went horribly wrong, starting with Jaime Navarro.

Its not just about how much you spend, but rather how wisely you spend it.

Oh, and I agree with LAWS, this place is filled with bitter and angry fans that are never satisfied, never happy, second guess everything, and just complain, complain, complain. Fire Ozzie, Fire Kenny, Fire Jerry, if you hate this organization so much, there is a rich team just to the north willing to spend as much as you want. Go be a Cub fan and quit your gripin' Thems fightin' woids.

voodoochile
11-16-2004, 02:32 PM
I remember when Jerry wasn't cheap...he brought Albert Belle to the SouthSide. We thought for an off season that we were going to have the most potent hitting attack since the 27 Yankees...then it all went horribly wrong, starting with Jaime Navarro.

Its not just about how much you spend, but rather how wisely you spend it.

Oh, and I agree with LAWS, this place is filled with bitter and angry fans that are never satisfied, never happy, second guess everything, and just complain, complain, complain. Fire Ozzie, Fire Kenny, Fire Jerry, if you hate this organization so much, there is a rich team just to the north willing to spend as much as you want. Go be a Cub fan and quit your gripin'
Remind me again, how long ago did the flubbies start spending money?

Remind me again, how long ago did they start winning and come close to a pennant?

Remind me again, how many years they kept Albert Belle of his original 4 year contract.

Remind me again of how the Sox decided to go young and cheap 4 months after signing Albert Belle.

Remind me again of all the pitching they added that year and how they have added solid in their prime pitchers in recent years to compliment the talented young team they had in 2000 and then kept those solid contributors for years to come to ensure they would have (what was that expression from earlier this thread) "4-5 licks of the can" before Frank retires, Maggs and Paulie leave due to Free agency and the team one more time tries to rebuild.

I didn't make this mess. I merely got to watch it happen...

Dolanski
11-16-2004, 02:44 PM
Remind me again, how long ago did the flubbies start spending money?

Remind me again, how long ago did they start winning and come close to a pennant?

Remind me again, how many years they kept Albert Belle of his original 4 year contract.

Remind me again of how the Sox decided to go young and cheap 4 months after signing Albert Belle.

Remind me again of all the pitching they added that year and how they have added solid in their prime pitchers in recent years to compliment the talented young team they had in 2000 and then kept those solid contributors for years to come to ensure they would have (what was that expression from earlier this thread) "4-5 licks of the can" before Frank retires, Maggs and Paulie leave due to Free agency and the team one more time tries to rebuild.

I didn't make this mess. I merely got to watch it happen...
OK, you didn't make this mess, but now all you do is bitch about it. It is really annoying to read this message board when more than half the posts are gripes about what Kenny did wrong, or what Ozzie did wrong, or what Jerry did wrong, or how this whole thing is so screwed up. I read it for the info for the most part, but I can barely stand all the bellyaching. Everything is wrong, nothing is right, and we are all doomed, is pretty much the message from the boards.

News flash for you: This isn't the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Things are not that bad. Have we won anything? No, but it certainly isn't for lack of trying. Imagine being a KC Royals fan or an Orioles fan the past few years. You have NO HOPE, NO CHANCE and NO REASON to care. Like or dislike the moves of this organization, they have for the past few years made serious effort to win. No they did not spend 185 million, but they didn't roll over and die either. You and all the other bellyachers make it sound like this franchise is on its last legs and should be put out of its misery. And if it is SO bad, then do the rest of us a favor and quit following the team.

Baby Fisk
11-16-2004, 02:47 PM
News flash for you: This isn't the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.
Now you're just going to get someone riled up about the stadium. :cool:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 03:14 PM
OK, you didn't make this mess, but now all you do is bitch about it. It is really annoying to read this message board when more than half the posts are gripes about what Kenny did wrong, or what Ozzie did wrong, or what Jerry did wrong, or how this whole thing is so screwed up.
Chicago White Sox 2000 Season 95 - 67
Chicago White Sox 2000 - 2001 Offseason - 10/24/00 Sign Kenny Williams as GM

Chicago White Sox 2001 Season 83 - 79
Chicago White Sox 2002 Season 81 - 81
Chicago White Sox 2003 Season 86 - 76
Chicago White Sox 2004 Season 83 - 79

I don't think Jerry Manuel was the only person in management responsible for losing year in and year out to an organization who spends 75 - 80% what you spend and was headed for contraction by JR's puppet Bud Selig a few years ago.

PaulDrake
11-16-2004, 03:14 PM
News flash for you: This isn't the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Things are not that bad. Have we won anything? No, but it certainly isn't for lack of trying. Imagine being a KC Royals fan or an Orioles fan the past few years. You have NO HOPE, NO CHANCE and NO REASON to care. Like or dislike the moves of this organization, they have for the past few years made serious effort to win. No they did not spend 185 million, but they didn't roll over and die either. You and all the other bellyachers make it sound like this franchise is on its last legs and should be put out of its misery. And if it is SO bad, then do the rest of us a favor and quit following the team. The Royals and Orioles have had it rough in recent years. Still, in my lifetime and I'm OLD the Royals have been to 2 WS and won in 1985. The Orioles have made six appearances and come away with the big prize 3 times. Tampa Bay? Yes, that is a hapless franchise but they do have some young talent, and my favorite manager. Do the rest of us a favor and lighten up. Some us aren't going to quit, but we are not going to lose our grip on reality either.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 03:16 PM
Are you seriously going to argue that was not a good trade for the A's?

We've been down this path so many times before. Even as one of the major critics of KW here, I'd at least like to hold of on more criticism or praise until he makes at least one move this off-season.
They got ONE, I repeat ONE good season out of Foulke before he bailed. When teams make a "The future is now" type of trade, that team has to get to at least the ALCS in order for the trade to be successful. Oh course the Beane Sprouts haven't gone past the first round of the playoffs.

I'm sure we've been down this path before but it never fails that somebody will bring this up in a post once a week. Get over it.

jabrch
11-16-2004, 03:19 PM
Chicago White Sox 2000 Season 95 - 67
Chicago White Sox 2000 - 2001 Offseason - 10/24/00 Sign Kenny Williams as GM

Chicago White Sox 2001 Season 83 - 79
Chicago White Sox 2002 Season 81 - 81
Chicago White Sox 2003 Season 86 - 76
Chicago White Sox 2004 Season 83 - 79

I don't think Jerry Manuel was the only person in management responsible for losing year in and year out to an organization who spends 75 - 80% what you spend and was headed for contraction by JR's puppet Bud Selig a few years ago.
So we won 95 games in 2000 because of the GMs great work - and we won 83 games per season on average afterwards cuz of the GMs poor work?

Man Soo Lee
11-16-2004, 03:22 PM
They got ONE, I repeat ONE good season out of Foulke before he bailed. When teams make a "The future is now" type of trade, that team has to get to at least the ALCS in order for the trade to be successful. Oh course the Beane Sprouts haven't gone past the first round of the playoffs. What part of the A's future did they give up in the trade? Neal Cotts?

They got one good year from Foulke and two high draft picks when he left. We got two bad years from Koch and Wilson Valdez in return when he left.

voodoochile
11-16-2004, 03:24 PM
OK, you didn't make this mess, but now all you do is bitch about it. It is really annoying to read this message board when more than half the posts are gripes about what Kenny did wrong, or what Ozzie did wrong, or what Jerry did wrong, or how this whole thing is so screwed up. I read it for the info for the most part, but I can barely stand all the bellyaching. Everything is wrong, nothing is right, and we are all doomed, is pretty much the message from the boards.

News flash for you: This isn't the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Things are not that bad. Have we won anything? No, but it certainly isn't for lack of trying. Imagine being a KC Royals fan or an Orioles fan the past few years. You have NO HOPE, NO CHANCE and NO REASON to care. Like or dislike the moves of this organization, they have for the past few years made serious effort to win. No they did not spend 185 million, but they didn't roll over and die either. You and all the other bellyachers make it sound like this franchise is on its last legs and should be put out of its misery. And if it is SO bad, then do the rest of us a favor and quit following the team.
Yeah, that's the answer. Just quit. Don't take the time to love the team anymore. Don't take the time to follow the off-season and live and die with the ups and downs of a 162 season. Don't spend my money on merchandise. Don't spend my money on season tickets or on MLB.TV so I can watch the team. Don't try to enact change by pointing out how poorly this team is run or how lucky JR has been or how wealthy that luck has made him. Don't try to make things better by pointing any of this out, just bend over and take it or better yet quit.

Now who's talking like a flubbie fan?:rolleyes:

I ain't leaving and I won't shut up until JR starts running this club right or better yet quits and if you don't like it, feel free to not read it, post something different or just post somewhere else (you know - quit).

:selljerry

Dolanski
11-16-2004, 03:27 PM
The Royals and Orioles have had it rough in recent years. Still, in my lifetime and I'm OLD the Royals have been to 2 WS and won in 1985. The Orioles have made six appearances and come away with the big prize 3 times. Tampa Bay? Yes, that is a hapless franchise but they do have some young talent, and my favorite manager. Do the rest of us a favor and lighten up. Some us aren't going to quit, but we are not going to lose our grip on reality either.
Sorry, I don't mean to throw everyone under the bus, but I just get a bit frustrated at all the amount of negativity that goes around here. Read it enough and you think the world is coming to an end.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 03:28 PM
So we won 95 games in 2000 because of the GMs great work - and we won 83 games per season on average afterwards cuz of the GMs poor work?
Well Jerry Manuel was around when they won in 2000 and he was canned. What has Kenny Williams done to deserve to stay? This team is 100% his at this point and I don't see an improvement but rather a regression. We can't beat the friggin Twins who spend a fraction of what we spend. Year after year after year. It doesn't matter if the manager just sits there or if you have a manager swearing at the players 24/7/365.

Ronald Reagan said it best - (White Sox Fans) Are you better off than you were four years ago?

Most White Sox fans objectively say no and want someone hired who can turn the franchise around.

Paulwny
11-16-2004, 03:37 PM
Ronald Reagan said it best - (White Sox Fans) Are you better off than you were four years ago?

Most White Sox fans objectively say no and want someone hired who can turn the franchise around.
Some fa's would immediately turn this franchise around, not a new gm.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 03:37 PM
What part of the A's future did they give up in the trade? Neal Cotts?

They got one good year from Foulke and two high draft picks when he left. We got two bad years from Koch and Wilson Valdez in return when he left.Draft picks??? Like the draft picks that the A's from the Brewers that became Todd Van Poppel? Have any of these draft picks by Beane made an impact? Especially the compensation picks that the A's got after losing Giambi, Foulke etc. Oh wait, of course they did the genius never makes a bad selection. Riiiiight

Man Soo Lee
11-16-2004, 03:59 PM
Draft picks??? Like the draft picks that the A's from the Brewers that became Todd Van Poppel? Have any of these draft picks by Beane made an impact? Especially the compensation picks that the A's got after losing Giambi, Foulke etc. Oh wait, of course they did the genius never makes a bad selection. Riiiiight
Every GM makes bad picks. That's why it helps to have a lot of them.

I have no desire to debate the trade for thousandth time on this board, especially since it's impossible to defend in hindsight.

FightingBillini
11-16-2004, 04:57 PM
The Sox need to build around C Lee, P Konerko, A Rowand, M Buehrle, D Marte. (and now F Garcia as well though nobody has explained how his last three years conclude that he is the must acquire "ace" which was worth two low cost good everyday starters).
Dude, you need to stop posting here, you are embarrassing yourself. We didn't give up 2 good everyday starters. We gave up kids. Olivo couldn't play every day yet. Reed was still in the minors, and I assume will be for most of next year.
By what you posted on this thread and others, I think the only trade you would approve of is Mulder, Hudson, Zito and cash for Josh Fields. Wait, no. You would say Fields is our future, we don't have enough talent to win this year so we might as well not try, and that those guys cant win in the post season, anyway. How about instead of bitching KW should have done this and that, he should trade Thomas, Contreras and Everett because they make too much money, and that we are so doomed...

Why don't you tell us that moves you think the Sox should make. Find stats and info to back them up, don't just say "Garcia is not an ace, we shouldn't have traded for him". Tell us what players we should acquire this year, and be prepared to defend that later. Half way through the season and after the season, I want you to say "I have said this from the beginning. My guy is cheaper, has a higher OBS, BA, and more RBIs." Also, don't include fantasies like trading with someone who will take on all of Thomas, Everett and Contreras's salaries and give us good talent in exchange. Start with our current payroll. Go out on a limb, we will see how you would run the White Sox.

34 Inch Stick
11-16-2004, 05:02 PM
I do not like Beane. I would love to have made the playoffs and lost the last few years.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 05:17 PM
1.Dude, you need to stop posting here, you are embarrassing yourself. We didn't give up 2 good everyday starters. We gave up kids. Olivo couldn't play every day yet. Reed was still in the minors, and I assume will be for most of next year.
.....

2. Find stats and info to back them up, don't just say "Garcia is not an ace, we shouldn't have traded for him". Tell us what players we should acquire this year, and be prepared to defend that later....

3. Also, don't include fantasies like trading with someone who will take on all of Thomas, Everett and Contreras's salaries and give us good talent in exchange. Start with our current payroll. Go out on a limb, we will see how you would run the White Sox.1. Miguel Olivo will be 24 years old, is very good defensively, and if you think the Sox have / will have anyone better you are sadly mistaken.

Jeremy Reed is one of the top young players who will play everyday and hit .290 with over 20 HRs and SBs a year and can play good defense. Much better than the middle age out of shape garbage Kenny trades for every season (Everett / Alomar).

2. I posted Garcia's stats for the past three years and they are not worth two everyday players for three months in 2004. Once again I must point out the trade WAS NOT contingent on a long term deal - that was signed weeks after the trade. His deal through 2007 would NOT have been exceeded by any ballclubs and if it was, like Vizquel I say let the greater fool theory apply.

3. Everett and Contreras were obtained by your idol, Kenny Williams, on 7/18 (Everett) and 7/31 (Contreras). Loaiza was gone after this season WITH NO CONTRACT THROUGH 2006. WE DIDN'T HAVE AN EVERETT OPTION YEAR IN 2005 EITHER.

I don't know whether you are old guy #1 or #2 in Jerry Reinsdorf's thick and thin commercials.

Kenny has had 4 seasons to take a club with a $31 mil payroll and 95 wins to a club with a $65 mil payroll and 83 wins. Now to the Chicago Public School System or other government entity that .500 and doubling costs / taxes is par for the course. The Sox fans that I know don't blindly accept whatever ownership / management line that is fed like the sheep on the North Side (or the corruption lies of Daley after each week's new corruption scandal).

I told you what I would do - Tell Kenny what Jerry Manuel was told "He gone". I will comment on the trades and earth shattering "non Boras" free agent signings as they happen.

FightingBillini
11-16-2004, 05:32 PM
1. Miguel Olivo will be 24 years old, is very good defensively, and if you think the Sox have / will have anyone better you are sadly mistaken.

Jeremy Reed is one of the top young players who will play everyday and hit .290 with over 20 HRs and SBs a year and can play good defense. Much better than the middle age out of shape garbage Kenny trades for every season (Everett / Alomar).

2. I posted Garcia's stats for the past three years and they are not worth two everyday players for three months in 2004. Once again I must point out the trade WAS NOT contingent on a long term deal - that was signed weeks after the trade. His deal through 2007 would NOT have been exceeded by any ballclubs and if it was, like Vizquel I say let the greater fool theory apply.

3. Everett and Contreras were obtained by your idol, Kenny Williams, on 7/18 (Everett) and 7/31 (Contreras). Loaiza was gone after this season WITH NO CONTRACT THROUGH 2006. WE DIDN'T HAVE AN EVERETT OPTION YEAR IN 2005 EITHER.

I don't know whether you are old guy #1 or #2 in Jerry Reinsdorf's thick and thin commercials.

Kenny has had 4 seasons to take a club with a $31 mil payroll and 95 wins to a club with a $65 mil payroll and 83 wins. Now to the Chicago Public School System or other government entity that .500 and doubling costs / taxes is par for the course. The Sox fans that I know don't blindly accept whatever ownership / management line that is fed like the sheep on the North Side (or the corruption lies of Daley after each week's new corruption scandal).

I told you what I would do - Tell Kenny what Jerry Manuel was told "He gone". I will comment on the trades and earth shattering "non Boras" free agent signings as they happen.
You still didnt prove that Olivo and Reed are currently everyday players. Once again, I want you to tell us who you would acquire THIS offseason, not what dumb things KW has done in the past. This is your big chance. Tell us how you would do it this year with what we have.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 05:46 PM
You still didnt prove that Olivo and Reed are currently everyday players. Once again, I want you to tell us who you would acquire THIS offseason, not what dumb things KW has done in the past. This is your big chance. Tell us how you would do it this year with what we have.
We will look at the end of 2005 to determine what Olivo and Reed have accomplish and their prospects for 2006 and beyond.

I would NOT make a trade for Randy Johnson.

I would go after Pavano (high cost) , Leiber (mid cost) to shore up the pitching staff (Beuhrle, Garcia and Garland will start and Contreras is a huge ? but since we are stuck with him for two more years, hopefully (he is not actually 42 years old) and his control issues could be addressed.

I would offer a league leading contract to Leo Mazzone as he is the best coach in baseball bar none.

I would sign Polanco for a reasonable amount as he is both young and not very expensive (much better signing than Vizquel (old decline) or Guzman (pretty much at his offensive ceiling).

Assuming that is the limit of the budget for the White Sox in 2005, that is the extent of what could be done for the upcoming season.

If Kenny G Williams will sign a good / great pitcher and some insurance for the infield, and if Everett and Thomas report to camp and can actually play at least 100 games next year at a level slightly below what they achieved in the past 2 - 3 years (when healthy) than that is all we can expect. They may get lucky and win the division, though I question their ability to advance in the playoffs (though I think they could win at least 1 game).

I am sure you will let me know your disproval and when you do offer examples of what you would do instead.

Flight #24
11-16-2004, 05:50 PM
We will look at the end of 2005 to determine what Olivo and Reed have accomplish and their prospects for 2006 and beyond.

I would NOT make a trade for Randy Johnson.

I would go after Pavano (high cost) , Leiber (mid cost) to shore up the pitching staff (Beuhrle, Garcia and Garland will start and Contreras is a huge ? but since we are stuck with him for two more years, hopefully (he is not actually 42 years old) and his control issues could be addressed.

I would offer a league leading contract to Leo Mazzone as he is the best coach in baseball bar none.

I would sign Polanco for a reasonable amount as he is both young and not very expensive (much better signing than Vizquel (old decline) or Guzman (pretty much at his offensive ceiling).

Assuming that is the limit of the budget for the White Sox in 2005, that is the extent of what could be done for the upcoming season.

If Kenny G Williams will sign a good / great pitcher and some insurance for the infield, and if Everett and Thomas report to camp and can actually play at least 100 games next year at a level slightly below what they achieved in the past 2 - 3 years (when healthy) than that is all we can expect. They may get lucky and win the division, though I question their ability to advance in the playoffs (though I think they could win at least 1 game).

I am sure you will let me know your disproval and when you do offer examples of what you would do instead.
All I can say is congratulations, you just raised payroll by roughly 20mil and somehow added a coach who's under contract to another team and isn't really interested in going anywhere - and did that without promoting him to manager.

All I can say is, please share!:smokin: :smokin:

ilsox7
11-16-2004, 05:58 PM
We will look at the end of 2005 to determine what Olivo and Reed have accomplish and their prospects for 2006 and beyond. Agreed. However, I am of the opnion that the Sox needed to get Garcia when they did. First, at the time we were still thinking playoffs. Second, I truly do not believe that we would have been able to sign him as a FA. Probably a point that most will disagree with me on, but it is my belief.

I would NOT make a trade for Randy Johnson. Depends on the cost (player-wise)...but I'd do Konerko/Garland for him, which is similar to what has been rumored. We'd instanlt have one of the best 1-2-3 staters in baseball, 2 of which are left-handed.

I would go after Pavano (high cost) , Leiber (mid cost) to shore up the pitching staff (Beuhrle, Garcia and Garland will start and Contreras is a huge ? but since we are stuck with him for two more years, hopefully (he is not actually 42 years old) and his control issues could be addressed. I think Pavano will go to the Red Sox, but I like him. I think Lieber is more realistic for us. He's a good option and at least he throws strikes.


I would offer a league leading contract to Leo Mazzone as he is the best coach in baseball bar none. Seeing as though we aren't about to break the bank on players, I don't see us doing it on coaches.

I think the plan for our starting staff is somehting along the lines of this philosophy: if we can get a stud #1 (aka Johnson), then having a weak #5 won't kill us. If we cannot get that stud, let's get a soild guy so that we have strength at the top of the rotation (Garcia, MB) a solid #3 (say Lieber), a guy who could be good (Contreras) and a guy who we will get 11 wins and lots of walks from #5 (Garland). I don't know if we can expect much different from either of these scenarios givien known constraints (payroll).

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 05:58 PM
We will look at the end of 2005 to determine what Olivo and Reed have accomplish and their prospects for 2006 and beyond.

I would NOT make a trade for Randy Johnson.

I would go after Pavano (high cost) , Leiber (mid cost) to shore up the pitching staff (Beuhrle, Garcia and Garland will start and Contreras is a huge ? but since we are stuck with him for two more years, hopefully (he is not actually 42 years old) and his control issues could be addressed.

I would offer a league leading contract to Leo Mazzone as he is the best coach in baseball bar none.

I would sign Polanco for a reasonable amount as he is both young and not very expensive (much better signing than Vizquel (old decline) or Guzman (pretty much at his offensive ceiling).

Assuming that is the limit of the budget for the White Sox in 2005, that is the extent of what could be done for the upcoming season.

If Kenny G Williams will sign a good / great pitcher and some insurance for the infield, and if Everett and Thomas report to camp and can actually play at least 100 games next year at a level slightly below what they achieved in the past 2 - 3 years (when healthy) than that is all we can expect. They may get lucky and win the division, though I question their ability to advance in the playoffs (though I think they could win at least 1 game).

I am sure you will let me know your disproval and when you do offer examples of what you would do instead.Shouldn't this be in deep pink? Unless the Sox have a printing press in the basement, that is.

I like Lieber, but Pavano isn't worth what he's going to get. Everyone's all lathered up over him, but you wouldn't have paid him $5M up until 2004. Now one good season and everyone wants to throw money at him. I'll pass. I would take Russ Ortiz instead for the same money. Yeah, I know, he gives up a lot of BB, but he's had about 6 good seasons in a row (5 more than Pavano) and those BB haven't killed him yet. Of course, if they can swing the trade with the D-backs for RJ, I'd take him in a heartbeat, for about the same money that Pavano will get from some sucker.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 06:01 PM
All I can say is congratulations, you just raised payroll by roughly 20mil and somehow added a coach who's under contract to another team and isn't really interested in going anywhere - and did that without promoting him to manager.

All I can say is, please share!:smokin: :smokin:
1. Pavano - $10 Mil or Leiber $4 - 5 mil (obviously no matter how much we would like to, we cannot dump Contreras as Cashman did so we are stuck with either or).

2. Who says Mazzone cannot be manager if he so chooses. Ozzie is not the answer - just another stop gap in the stop gap reign of KW / JR, though it would be a longshot as he did turn down the Mets before and I doubt he would be excited working for the genius and meiser.

DumpJerry
11-16-2004, 06:02 PM
Ok, without having read all the postings on this thread, it is obvious LAWS hit on a nerve. But then whenever the competency of JR or KW comes up, it sets off a cat fight of postings as we all foam at the mouth and say things about those two that either make them sound like saints or the biggest jerks to have ever walked the face of the planet.

Here is my two cents on the debate: Uncle may or may not be cheap, but he is not, in any manner imaginable, qualified to be in a management position of a professional sports team. He does not understand one iota of how to please the fans or build a championship team. I know, some will say "Da' Bulls!" Well, Michael Jordan was already drafted when Uncle Jerky bought the Bulls. Look at them without Michael.:angry:

Spending money does not win baseball games. The Twins' payroll is 20 million less than the Sox. The Flubs' payroll is much larger and finished about 7 games ahead of us and not in the playoffs. What wins baseball games? Chemistry. You need about 4 or 5 stars with humble egos (no Sosas) and 20 other guys who are willing to learn from the stars and be inspired by them. This support system allows the 20 other guys to play without the pressure of being The Guy each game and develop skills so that if a star goes down or leaves, there is a replacement ready. I think KW understands this, he is looking for "grinders" like Rowand and is willing to let egos get away.

Ok, tell me how wrong I am.:?:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 06:05 PM
Ok, tell me how wrong I am.:?:
__________________
http://home.comcast.net/~fakeplastic18/cub.jpg
The greatest day in the history of Western Civilization after Super Bowl XX
__________________________________________________ ________________

How can anyone who brings such joy to the world with that great magnificent signiture ever be deemed wrong? :redface:

jabrch
11-16-2004, 06:05 PM
Q: Why has nobody ever hired Leo Mazzone?

A: Cuz baseball people know he has no interest in leaving Atlanta.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 06:18 PM
Q: Why has nobody ever hired Leo Mazzone?

A: Cuz baseball people know he has no interest in leaving Atlanta.
Illini asked for my thoughts and you got them. Mazzone has rehabbed more pitchers than anyone. He could help the Sox with the cheap signings that Atlanta has gotten away with (who wanted J Wright in the winter of 2004?)

Being a longtime Hawks fan, I have suffered through ownership and players turned coaching experiments (Dirk Graham) though Ozzie did exceed my expectations (implosion) though sadly met my expectations as well (league leading CS / sacrifices / no plate patience) which pretty much sums up his career as a whole.

ilsox7
11-16-2004, 06:43 PM
Ozzie did exceed my expectations (implosion) though sadly met my expectations as well (league leading CS / sacrifices / no plate patience) which pretty much sums up his career as a whole.
With all due respect, I don't think you are giving Ozzie a fair chance here. He inherited a team and had almost no say in his players for the 2004 season. From the talk we hear (and it is not totally proven to be true yet), the Sox are at least looking to change the make up of the team by acquiring solid pitching and OBP guys. I think it's fair to say that Ozzie has had quite a bit of influence on this change in outlook. We can't say if the Sox can make it work, but I think it's really the only way this team will be able to put together a championship team.

DumpJerry
11-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Ok, tell me how wrong I am.:?:
__________________
http://home.comcast.net/~fakeplastic18/cub.jpg
The greatest day in the history of Western Civilization after Super Bowl XX
__________________________________________________ ________________

How can anyone who brings such joy to the world with that great magnificent signiture ever be deemed wrong? :redface:Oh, I suppose it's possible....lol

By the way: :welcome:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 08:15 PM
With all due respect, I don't think you are giving Ozzie a fair chance here. He inherited a team and had almost no say in his players for the 2004 season. From the talk we hear (and it is not totally proven to be true yet), the Sox are at least looking to change the make up of the team by acquiring solid pitching and OBP guys. I think it's fair to say that Ozzie has had quite a bit of influence on this change in outlook. We can't say if the Sox can make it work, but I think it's really the only way this team will be able to put together a championship team.I do think Ozzie needs more time to develop and like I said, he was much better than the last fan favorite turned head coach (Dirk Graham's stint as Head Coach).

Leo Mazzone is a Hall of Fame coach - Leo & Bill Belichick (Parcell's assistant for over a decade) are the most influencial "assistant" coaches in this generation. To the best of my knowledge he never was offered a manager's position (I know he turned down the Mets as pitching coach - though they were able to get the excellent Rick Peterson). Belichick shined when given full control and I think Leo would as well.

I do disagree, however, that Ozzie didn't have influence over his 2004 team. The Sox signed $20 million of their 2005 payroll with his blessing (Contreras $6 mil, Garcia $9 mil, Everett $4 mil). Continuing to improve OBP and Pitching (Both Starters and Relievers) should be the Sox game plan. I hope Ozzie and Kenny will be able to accomplish this within their budget (which better be at least several million $ more matching the ticket price increase for 2005 which is not even considering the "scout seats").

Jerome
11-16-2004, 08:40 PM
on WSI I have found:

That many White Sox fans are really Beane Sprouts. How did two teams with payrolls roughly the same as the A's win the 2002 and 2003 World Series? While the Beane Sprouts have sat at home after the first round. If you like Beane so much be a damn A's fan.

KW can't do anything right in the minds of posters on here. If Freddy Garcia wins 25 games and the Cy Young next season somebody will still say it was a bad deal. Even if Reed becomes an average major leaguer. Notice that Wells and Fogg are just average starters. And guys like Myette, Rausch, etc all still haven't done much.

No patience with younger players. Just a couple years ago people were debating about Rowand. He finally turned the corner. Samething with Carlos Lee. Good thing KW didn't trade them. But if KW did trade them back then and they became good players, I'm sure people sure say KW should have never traded them.

People have selective memories. Foulke had worn out his welcome in Chicago. He needed to go. He lost the closer job and wasn't happy. Koch didn't work out but Foulke only stayed with the A's for a year. Did that trade work out well for either team? Oh that's right, the genius, Beane, never makes a bad trade. Riiiiiiiight.

I do love the passion of other White Sox fans. I like the debates, though I do shake my head at times over the bitterness of some fans.

And I would rather have the Florida Marlins situation where in the last five years they won one world series, than the A's where they went to the playoffs four of the fives year but lost in the first round each year. Wouldn't you?


Making the playoffs four years in a row with one of the lowest payrolls in baseball is a tremendous accomplishment. It is for that reason that he is one of the Best GMs in baseball. This year the A's finished 2nd to a team that spent like twice as much money as they did. (Angels.)

I don't always agree with the KW bashers but how come for four years KW, who has a higher payroll (at least 5-10 million more) than the A's has failed to make the playoffs in a weaker division while the A's at least made the playoffs.

FightingBillini
11-16-2004, 09:08 PM
We will look at the end of 2005 to determine what Olivo and Reed have accomplish and their prospects for 2006 and beyond.

I would NOT make a trade for Randy Johnson.

I would go after Pavano (high cost) , Leiber (mid cost) to shore up the pitching staff (Beuhrle, Garcia and Garland will start and Contreras is a huge ? but since we are stuck with him for two more years, hopefully (he is not actually 42 years old) and his control issues could be addressed.

I would offer a league leading contract to Leo Mazzone as he is the best coach in baseball bar none.

I would sign Polanco for a reasonable amount as he is both young and not very expensive (much better signing than Vizquel (old decline) or Guzman (pretty much at his offensive ceiling).

Assuming that is the limit of the budget for the White Sox in 2005, that is the extent of what could be done for the upcoming season.

If Kenny G Williams will sign a good / great pitcher and some insurance for the infield, and if Everett and Thomas report to camp and can actually play at least 100 games next year at a level slightly below what they achieved in the past 2 - 3 years (when healthy) than that is all we can expect. They may get lucky and win the division, though I question their ability to advance in the playoffs (though I think they could win at least 1 game).

I am sure you will let me know your disproval and when you do offer examples of what you would do instead.
No, Im not going to dissaprove. I asked what you would do, and you told us. Its much more constructive saying "KW should do this" than "KW should HAVE done this". Hindsight is 20/20.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 09:57 PM
No, Im not going to dissaprove. I asked what you would do, and you told us. Its much more constructive saying "KW should do this" than "KW should HAVE done this". Hindsight is 20/20.
Agreed - On a go forward I will only address current Sox activity (or lack thereof).

I hope for nothing but the best for the Sox.

TornLabrum
11-16-2004, 10:10 PM
Sorry, I don't mean to throw everyone under the bus, but I just get a bit frustrated at all the amount of negativity that goes around here. Read it enough and you think the world is coming to an end.
So what exactly has there been to be positive about since 1917?

Flight #24
11-16-2004, 10:22 PM
1. Pavano - $10 Mil or Leiber $4 - 5 mil (obviously no matter how much we would like to, we cannot dump Contreras as Cashman did so we are stuck with either or).

2. Who says Mazzone cannot be manager if he so chooses. Ozzie is not the answer - just another stop gap in the stop gap reign of KW / JR, though it would be a longshot as he did turn down the Mets before and I doubt he would be excited working for the genius and meiser.1. You also mentioned Polanco. Since he made something like 4mil last year, assuming he's not taking a major pay cut, that's 18-20mil.

2. I think the only way you could get Mazzone would be to promote him. Otherwise, why would Atlanta even have to let you talk to him since he' under contract. Anyway it's all moot since I believe he's said before he doesn't want to leave Atlanta.

I like your plan, I just don't think it's very realistic.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 10:34 PM
So what exactly has there been to be positive about since 1917?
1959, 1977, 1983, 1993, 2000.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 10:39 PM
Making the playoffs four years in a row with one of the lowest payrolls in baseball is a tremendous accomplishment. It is for that reason that he is one of the Best GMs in baseball. This year the A's finished 2nd to a team that spent like twice as much money as they did. (Angels.)

I don't always agree with the KW bashers but how come for four years KW, who has a higher payroll (at least 5-10 million more) than the A's has failed to make the playoffs in a weaker division while the A's at least made the playoffs.
The point of baseball is to win the World Series. You don't get a mulligan if you don't have the budget.

Also explain how the Twins have made the playoffs the last three years with a payroll similiar to the A's? And they actually won a playoff series.

Explain how the Marlins and the 2002 Angels won the WS with payrolls about the same as the A's???? Hmmmm

And I'm not saying KW is perfect. When he traded Wells and Fogg for Richie, I wanted to throw my computer into the trash.

voodoochile
11-16-2004, 11:05 PM
1959, 1977, 1983, 1993, 2000.
1988, 1994, 1997

Jerome
11-17-2004, 12:51 PM
The point of baseball is to win the World Series. You don't get a mulligan if you don't have the budget.

Also explain how the Twins have made the playoffs the last three years with a payroll similiar to the A's? And they actually won a playoff series.

Explain how the Marlins and the 2002 Angels won the WS with payrolls about the same as the A's???? Hmmmm

And I'm not saying KW is perfect. When he traded Wells and Fogg for Richie, I wanted to throw my computer into the trash.


I was just trying to explain how much better BB was than KW.

You are 100% correct. The Marlins and Angels GM did a better job than the A's in their WS years. And Terry Ryan continues to amaze me. He is probably the best GM in baseball.


And you do get a Mulligan in terms of how good you should be regarded as a GM. Do you really think that Brian Cashman is a better GM than Beane or Terry Ryan?

CarlosMay'sThumb
11-17-2004, 01:16 PM
on WSI I have found:

That many White Sox fans are really Beane Sprouts. How did two teams with payrolls roughly the same as the A's win the 2002 and 2003 World Series? While the Beane Sprouts have sat at home after the first round. If you like Beane so much be a damn A's fan.

KW can't do anything right in the minds of posters on here. If Freddy Garcia wins 25 games and the Cy Young next season somebody will still say it was a bad deal. Even if Reed becomes an average major leaguer. Notice that Wells and Fogg are just average starters. And guys like Myette, Rausch, etc all still haven't done much.

No patience with younger players. Just a couple years ago people were debating about Rowand. He finally turned the corner. Samething with Carlos Lee. Good thing KW didn't trade them. But if KW did trade them back then and they became good players, I'm sure people sure say KW should have never traded them.

People have selective memories. Foulke had worn out his welcome in Chicago. He needed to go. He lost the closer job and wasn't happy. Koch didn't work out but Foulke only stayed with the A's for a year. Did that trade work out well for either team? Oh that's right, the genius, Beane, never makes a bad trade. Riiiiiiiight.

I do love the passion of other White Sox fans. I like the debates, though I do shake my head at times over the bitterness of some fans.

And I would rather have the Florida Marlins situation where in the last five years they won one world series, than the A's where they went to the playoffs four of the fives year but lost in the first round each year. Wouldn't you?Take a pill.

1. I don't know how many people here think Beane is the greatest GM ever, but nobody in their right mind can think that KW is in the same class as Beane. The Ritchie, Koch and Garcia trades prove that KW has made too many mistakes to be a GM. Forget about Beane, just look at KWs record.

2. Your points about Reed, Fogg, Wells, Myette, Rausch and Olivo not having proved anything and your criticism of posters for not waiting to develop young talent is contradictory. Wouldn't it have been better to wait to see how these guys develop? Why only wait for Uribe and Harris?

3. Foulke wore out his welcome? What welcome? The guy was here for years and had a bad half a season. It's KW's job to recognize that this guy is one of the best closers in the game and that Koch was done. Obviously, Beane recognized it.

4. You're not seriously comparing EITHER the A's or the Marlins to the Sox, are you? I'd take either of them over the Sox in the last 10 years. Please, give me a team that consistently loses in the first round of the playoffs.

LAWSfan
11-17-2004, 02:42 PM
Take a pill.

1. I don't know how many people here think Beane is the greatest GM ever, but nobody in their right mind can think that KW is in the same class as Beane. The Ritchie, Koch and Garcia trades prove that KW has made too many mistakes to be a GM. Forget about Beane, just look at KWs record.

2. Your points about Reed, Fogg, Wells, Myette, Rausch and Olivo not having proved anything and your criticism of posters for not waiting to develop young talent is contradictory. Wouldn't it have been better to wait to see how these guys develop? Why only wait for Uribe and Harris?

3. Foulke wore out his welcome? What welcome? The guy was here for years and had a bad half a season. It's KW's job to recognize that this guy is one of the best closers in the game and that Koch was done. Obviously, Beane recognized it.

4. You're not seriously comparing EITHER the A's or the Marlins to the Sox, are you? I'd take either of them over the Sox in the last 10 years. Please, give me a team that consistently loses in the first round of the playoffs.
Get a clue.

1. The beane hasn't made mistakes? Nice bullpen this year. Rhodes nice FA signing. Nice trade for Dotel.

2. I'll type really slow so even somebody like you will understand. When I talked about being patient with younger players it was players who were with the White Sox and needed time to become solid major league players. Notice Carlos Lee and Rowand both needed time to put things together. Same with Harris and Uribe. Now the point of the young players that were traded is that they have not done much. But people still bring up the bad trades. Notice your comments.

3. Foukle lost his closer job and was a jerk about it. He wasn't a team player. He was starting to be a cancer.

4. You're crazy if you only want a team that loses in the first round of the playoffs every year. I would take the Angels 2 playoff appearances and one World Series title over the four straight playoffs for the A's.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-17-2004, 11:12 PM
Get a clue.Foukle lost his closer job and was a jerk about it. He wasn't a team player. He was starting to be a cancer. I think the Sox need some cancer (and no I am not talking about JR or KW).

Keith Foulke:

G Sv IP ERA WHIP BAA K BB
2002 Sox 65 11 78 2.90 1.00 .225 58 13
2003 Oak 72 43 87 2.08 0.89 .184 88 20
2004 Bost 72 32 83 2.17 0.94 .206 79 15

Career 501 175 660 3.04 1.02 .214 625

2004 Postseason 14 IP, 15 H+BB, 1 R, 19 K, 1-0 3 Sv

Sorry LAWS but you are trying to defend the indefensible. Foulke's career numbers are awesome. His numbers were great in 2002. If the Sox had Foulke, Marte and Gordon in 2003, we could still be talking trash about their great season.

NWSox
11-18-2004, 02:08 AM
You're crazy if you only want a team that loses in the first round of the playoffs every year. I would take the Angels 2 playoff appearances and one World Series title over the four straight playoffs for the A's.The point is that we don't have either of these options. The Twins or A's track record would be nice step up for the Sox, and Angels and Marlins even better.

As fans, I think we have right to expect that KW will make the Sox as competitive as the Twins and the A's (the Angels have moved up in payroll and aren't a fair comparison anymore). Ultimately, that's the standard by which he should be judged. And while it's probably too soon to judge his body of work, I don't see KW moving this organization in the same direction as either the Twins or the A's. KW wants the quick fix at the expense of long term development.

If that's negativity, so be it. In the early 90's, the Sox had a great team that was fun to watch, but always finished behind the A's. I remember feeling very positive about that team even I knew we couldn't compete for the division title. That team eventually won in '93. Given the current competition in the AL Central, there is absolutely no reason why this team should not have more division titles. It's bad management and it needs to be called out.