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View Full Version : Ozzie: Yea or Neh


Takatsufan
11-15-2004, 10:07 PM
I think Ozzie Guillen did a very good job this year with the White Sox, being that it was his first year coaching. But I wanted to know if everyone else felt the same way.

oeo
11-15-2004, 10:13 PM
I think we're the minority, but I feel the same way. I love his approach, just not the way things turned out, which I'm sure he feels the same way. I love Ozzie :D:

pearso66
11-15-2004, 10:15 PM
I agree, i liked Ozzie. you cant blame him on key injuries to frank and maggs. or can you???

doublem23
11-15-2004, 10:18 PM
He didn't do a horrible job, but there is room for improvement.

CubKilla
11-15-2004, 10:18 PM
I think Ozzie Guillen did a very good job this year with the White Sox, being that it was his first year coaching. But I wanted to know if everyone else felt the same way.
Ozzie made huge mistakes at times that I will graciously chalk-up to him being a rookie manager.

Either that or he needs to go out and surround himself w/better baseball people..... starting w/a new bench coach.

CHIsoxNation
11-15-2004, 10:22 PM
I agree as well, I think Ozzie did a great job for a first year manager. He wasn't thrown the lineup or pitching staff Francon was given in Boston in his first year but Ozzie did the best he could. I mean, that has to be a lot of pressure on a first year manager when your two best hitters go down. I am very happy with the approach Ozzie and the staff are taking now with the upgrades in defense and pitching. I'm going to miss seeing all the fireworks but I am anxious to see this coaching staff finally bring a championship to the Southside of Chicago!!!

OurBitchinMinny
11-15-2004, 10:22 PM
Im not gonna judge him by his first season, but he has tons of room for improvement. He wasnt in my top 10 of managerial candidates going into last offseason, but Im still hoping he will prove me wrong.

mdep524
11-15-2004, 10:25 PM
Ozzie made huge mistakes at times that I will graciously chalk-up to him being a rookie manager.

Either that or he needs to go out and surround himself w/better baseball people..... starting w/a new bench coach.
Great point CubKilla, Ozzie needs more intelligent baseball people with him in that dugout. With the bench coach sport allegedly opening up, Ozzie should look for Jeff Torborg, Steve Stone-caliber guys to assist him. Overall, I think Ozzie did a decent job but he is never going to be the strategist or visionary of great chess player-type managers. What he does bring to the table, hopefully, is the ability to relate to and motivate his players, which is also important. But he needs someone else in the dugout with him.

mdep524
11-15-2004, 10:26 PM
...As a quick aside, are there any updates on Steve Stone? Has he made any career decisions yet?

Jurr
11-15-2004, 10:27 PM
He had a team that lost its two best players and had a low payroll. He ended up winning 4 more games than he lost and probably would've won a lot more if he had his horses. He may not have led the Sox to the division title, but I think it's a very respectable start to his managerial career.

Daver
11-15-2004, 10:29 PM
Ozzie Guillen had far more talent in his lineup in his first year than Jerry Manuel did, and did less with it. He has no clue how to handle a pitching staff, or a bullpen. His throw a dart and see what sticks approach to his lineups are very similar to the regime before him, but Ozzie's made less sense, if that is possible. We'll see if he can overcome some of his glaring shortfalls in his sophmore season.

chisoxmike
11-15-2004, 10:34 PM
The 2005 season will be his test in my opinion. He won't have Maggs, and who knows if Konerko or Lee will be in the lineup, and, if Thomas will be 100%, and who knows what to expect from Evertte. I liked Ozzie, he made some mistakes here and there, (Like it or not, not throwing at Hunter cost him the respect of some of his players.)

misty60481
11-15-2004, 10:47 PM
I agree the Hunter incident lost him a lot of creditability but he can make up for it this year, I look forward to Tori taking a little chin music---

DumpJerry
11-15-2004, 10:55 PM
I'm a yeah. He made some mistakes, we'll see if he learned from them. If he did not have Koch, he might have won 10 more games.....

balboner
11-15-2004, 10:59 PM
One of the things that worries me the most about Ozzie is his personnel evaluation. Saying things like Grilli can be an effective MLB starter makes me really doubt that Ozzie can make wise decisions. I felt he lost the team last year after the Hunter/Burke incident, and never got them back. If Manuel did the same stuff that Ozzie did last year, we would have been crying to fire him.

Jerome
11-15-2004, 11:10 PM
Ozzie finished in second place to the twins by ten games without Frank or Maggs. Manuel finished in second to the twins with Frank and Maggs.


(of course the twins were more talented in 03 I would say)

For a rookie manager (and that's all we're gonna get, sox fans) he did okay.

fusillirob1983
11-15-2004, 11:27 PM
He was about average I'd have to say. He got them going in spring training and towards the beginning of the season, but even if he had the thought that Hunter made the right play, he shouldn't have openly praised a player on our number one rival, especially when many of the players thought it was a dirty play.

NWSox
11-16-2004, 01:14 AM
I think Ozzie did a decent job of changing the attitude on the team, and this will reap benefits as the team gets younger. His tactical indiscretions, to put it nicely, would have generated more outrage had the Sox been in contention late in the season. You can play hunches in a 16 game season, but not over 162 games. He needs to cut that crap out before the Sox get in a pennant race again (I agree a seasoned bench coach would help).

OurBitchinMinny
11-16-2004, 01:48 AM
and hopefully this offseason he learns the difference between his right and left hand. JK. But I agree he cant always go with hunches and this team needs to get better on the basepaths. I know its not all on him, but his staff is his responsibility. I hope he goes out and makes me look like an ass, but there is a reason that first year base coaches typically do not get managerial jobs. He is having to learn a lot on the job, sometimes at the cost of losing ballgames. I still pin last season on the players, but having a better manager would have helped in dealing with all the injuries. But with thomas and maggs out I doubt anyone else would have guided the team to the division title.

NWSox
11-16-2004, 01:59 AM
I agree. As a first year manager, he gets a pass on some of his mistakes, especially given the injuries he had to deal with. Plus, his personality allowed him to get away with some mistakes. He won't get the same pass next season.

Bisco Stu
11-16-2004, 02:08 AM
He didn't inspire the team like I thought he would, but his managing skills made the difference in close games compared to JM. Finished over .500, have to give him another year to grow into the job. He has to put us in the playoffs by '06 or he's gone though.

StillMissOzzie
11-16-2004, 02:15 AM
With my screen name, I must admit to a slight bias. I agree that Ozzie did not handle the pitching staff very well, and some of his lineups smacked of JM's tinkering. He would have had a much better record if he had Maggs & Frank for the whole year. I also think he is too much of a company man, toeing the party line. But I still think he brought a feisty attitude, at least in the 1st half of the year, that made for some interesting baseball.

SMO
:happybday to me!

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 02:19 AM
One of the things that worries me the most about Ozzie is his personnel evaluation. Saying things like Grilli can be an effective MLB starter makes me really doubt that Ozzie can make wise decisions.
This is crazy. What should Ozzie say about one of his pitchers who is fighting to be the 5th starter. "He really sucks but that's the best we got" I mean come on. Being manager now, you have to manage egos more so. The in your face managers like Billy Martin and Earl Weaver and Dick Williams won't last these days.

To the guy who said Ozzie wasn't in his Top 10, who were your top 10?

NWSox
11-16-2004, 02:26 AM
Trying to fill the 5th spot and managing the bullpen were easily the toughest parts of his last season. I'm not sure what manager could have done better with that mess. I felt sorry for Ozzie every time he went to the bullpen.

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 10:30 AM
I agree the Hunter incident lost him a lot of creditability but he can make up for it this year, I look forward to Tori taking a little chin music---Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it usually the up to the pitcher to know enough to drill a guy in this situation? Does the manager have to tell him? I recall a game in 2003 with Colon pitching, in which he was cruising in the late innings with a shutout going and he drilled a player in retaliation and got tossed, losing his shutout but gaining immensely in the other players respect (and mine). I doubt very much that Jerry Manuel told him to do it.

In this situation, Mike Jackson was pitching when Hunter came up next. Wouldn't Ozzie normally assume a veteran pitcher would know what to do?

chisoxmike
11-16-2004, 11:47 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it usually the up to the pitcher to know enough to drill a guy in this situation? Does the manager have to tell him? I recall a game in 2003 with Colon pitching, in which he was cruising in the late innings with a shutout going and he drilled a player in retaliation and got tossed, losing his shutout but gaining immensely in the other players respect (and mine). I doubt very much that Jerry Manuel told him to do it.

In this situation, Mike Jackson was pitching when Hunter came up next. Wouldn't Ozzie normally assume a veteran pitcher would know what to do?I heard that Jackson and Hunter go back, and Jackson said "It would've been wrong to throw at Hunter." Way to stick up for your team there guy!

All in all. He changed the attitudes of the guys on the club:

Remember after they came back in late April against the Indians in the 9th, I think it was Buehrle that said "This was a game we would've lost last year,"

Remember July 8th vs. Angles.. he screamed at the players in the dugout before they batted in the 7th inning, said "I'm embarrassed for the fans." They rallied to win that game.

He did have a affect on the team. But, granted, this was all before the Hunter incident, and they were in 1st place. He did a fine job with what he had. I still think they could've won the divison without Maggs and Thomas. But what happend was the Twins got hot when the Sox got cold. Ozzie couldn't get them out of their funk after the Twins sweep in July and it all went downhill after that. 2005 is a major test. We'll see what he does without a Magglio and a Thomas that isn't going to be 100%. Lee or Konerko probably won't be here. He's got to handle the pitching staff better. He's got to know when to pull pitchers...like Garland.

I would give Ozzie a B+ first half. C second half. C+ overall (The second half outweighing the first.)

OG4LIFE
11-16-2004, 10:03 PM
i'd say if joe knossek would have been our bench coach instead of dumbass harold baines, we win 3-5 more games. unfortunately, joe had some health problems before the season and had to leave the team. i think with him in the dugout, ozzie doesnt make as many rookie mistakes, as opposed to harold baines, who just sits there and is about as experienced as ozzie is.

JKryl
11-16-2004, 11:07 PM
Right now, I think he broke even. I'd like to see him with a pitching staff, a decent catcher, and some healthy hitters.


Did I just write that? I must be thinking of another team. Never mind.








White Sox baseball, every day is an adventure.

JB98
11-16-2004, 11:39 PM
Trying to fill the 5th spot and managing the bullpen were easily the toughest parts of his last season. I'm not sure what manager could have done better with that mess. I felt sorry for Ozzie every time he went to the bullpen.

I totally agree. All season long I was harping on this board about how poor our bullpen was. Ozzie was criticized routinely for his inability to handle a pitching staff, and while I concede that he needs improvement in that area, there's no question he was given absolute crap to work with. Shingo and Marte were the only two bullpen pitchers he could trust, and even Marte didn't pitch the way we all know he can. Guys like Politte, Adkins, Cotts and Jackson have a tendency to make a manager look stupid.

What I don't like about Ozzie in his propensity to call for sacrifice bunts in the first inning and his constant tinkering with the lineup. Playing for one run early in an American League game is just foolish, and in general, I don't like bunting. I like to make the opposition earn all 27 outs. I'm a big fan of a set lineup too, and it seemed like Oz would change the batting order everyday. When you have to juggle and mix-and-match every single day that's usually a good sign that your team has a lot of holes.

ondafarm
11-16-2004, 11:58 PM
Ozzie? Yea but no YEAH!!!

Loyal to Harold Baines to a fault, could have used Nossek.

I think he handled the overrun catcher thing badly.

scottmt
11-17-2004, 04:01 AM
It would seem to be quite hubristic of the man to want to mold a team in his own image, that of a no-hit, career .287 OBP, decent glove shortstop who can't steal bases at a good enough clip to make attempting it worthwhile. I seem to remember a comment from Ozzie after he was named manager that he would have to make due with the roster he was given, as if Kenny had saddled him with the difficult burden of four 30-40 HR sluggers with on-base percentages ranging from decent to great. I understand the Konerko-Lee-Thomas-Ordenez era hasn't come together all that successfully, but I would attribute that, more than anything, to bad luck and bad management. Most of the time, talent will win out. But because of injuries and mismanagement, somehow it proves to people that the Sox must go back to the drawing board and reconstitute the team with players teetering on the edge of over-the-hill and journeymen scrappers. As if getting rid of Konerko, Garland, and Brian Anderson for Randy Johnson will result in a playoff berth or world title! Johnson had only 4 more wins than Garland last year, and Johnson on the Sox wouldn't have the benefit of the run support Konerko's 40+ HRs provides. Kenny Williams' job as GM should be to put the best talent possible within his budget constraints out on the field every game, but if he follows Ozzie's desires, that will never happen. I don't doubt the Sox need to make a change in the vein of more left handed bats in the lineup, but I'm not talking about "Ozzieball" guys. The answer is not subtracting dozens of HRs and mortgaging the future for a misguided "attitude" and a manager who I wouldn't mind seeing fired today and will more likely than not be fired at the end of his contract. It would amount to a killing of the franchise for the next four or five years, just as Hawk did as GM.

They say great players have a tough time managing because they can't understand those who cannot live up to the standards that they had for themselves as players. A guy like Don Cooper was not a great player, but then his modus operandi is not to mold the pitchers after himself. If Ozzie wants, he can have 15 Ozzies on his team--it's not too difficult to find guys at the AA level who will swing at the first pitch and get on base a quarter of the time. There is a major problem if, as it would seem to me, Ozzie believes that it's not a star's game.

I understand many of the things I pointed out would be Kenny's responsibilities, not Ozzie's, but I believe Kenny's hand has been forced by the team's failure this year. It seems like the sentiment is that they've tried it with sluggers, now it's time for Ozzie's way. And if we do continue down the path of Ozzie's choosing, I worry greatly for a franchise that I care very much about, because it will be in for many more years of futility and frustration.

SOXSINCE'70
11-17-2004, 08:18 AM
It would be nice if the cheap management bastards
gave him something to work with that didn't resemble
a pile of manure.:angry: :angry: :angry:

Jerome
11-17-2004, 12:40 PM
It would seem to be quite hubristic of the man to want to mold a team in his own image, that of a no-hit, career .287 OBP, decent glove shortstop who can't steal bases at a good enough clip to make attempting it worthwhile. I seem to remember a comment from Ozzie after he was named manager that he would have to make due with the roster he was given, as if Kenny had saddled him with the difficult burden of four 30-40 HR sluggers with on-base percentages ranging from decent to great. I understand the Konerko-Lee-Thomas-Ordenez era hasn't come together all that successfully, but I would attribute that, more than anything, to bad luck and bad management. Most of the time, talent will win out. But because of injuries and mismanagement, somehow it proves to people that the Sox must go back to the drawing board and reconstitute the team with players teetering on the edge of over-the-hill and journeymen scrappers. As if getting rid of Konerko, Garland, and Brian Anderson for Randy Johnson will result in a playoff berth or world title! Johnson had only 4 more wins than Garland last year, and Johnson on the Sox wouldn't have the benefit of the run support Konerko's 40+ HRs provides. Kenny Williams' job as GM should be to put the best talent possible within his budget constraints out on the field every game, but if he follows Ozzie's desires, that will never happen. I don't doubt the Sox need to make a change in the vein of more left handed bats in the lineup, but I'm not talking about "Ozzieball" guys. The answer is not subtracting dozens of HRs and mortgaging the future for a misguided "attitude" and a manager who I wouldn't mind seeing fired today and will more likely than not be fired at the end of his contract. It would amount to a killing of the franchise for the next four or five years, just as Hawk did as GM.

They say great players have a tough time managing because they can't understand those who cannot live up to the standards that they had for themselves as players. A guy like Don Cooper was not a great player, but then his modus operandi is not to mold the pitchers after himself. If Ozzie wants, he can have 15 Ozzies on his team--it's not too difficult to find guys at the AA level who will swing at the first pitch and get on base a quarter of the time. There is a major problem if, as it would seem to me, Ozzie believes that it's not a star's game.

I understand many of the things I pointed out would be Kenny's responsibilities, not Ozzie's, but I believe Kenny's hand has been forced by the team's failure this year. It seems like the sentiment is that they've tried it with sluggers, now it's time for Ozzie's way. And if we do continue down the path of Ozzie's choosing, I worry greatly for a franchise that a care very much about, because it will be in for many more years of futility and frustration.


Ozzie's career OBP was .287?

Ooooh, that's a shot to the heart. I pray to God that the team does not take the on-field identity of its manager. .287 is really really bad.