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SouthSide_HitMen
11-15-2004, 05:31 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&co ntent_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&content_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Kenny Williams - Quote "We hope to have a team built around our pitching staff. But anyone who watched us play in 2004 realizes that we need to be more athletic, better defensively and quicker on the bases. Slugging it out night after night is just too inconsistent. You need thunder in the middle of your lineup, especially in the American League, but at the top and at the bottom, we need guys who can get on base, run, move runners along and handle the bat. I want to give Ozzie a team he can play with and really manage during games."

I.e - players more like themselves

Kenny Williams
451 Games, .218 BA, .269 OBP, .339 Slg, 290 K, 56 BB

Ozzie Guillen
1993 Games, .264 BA, .287 OBP, .338 Slg, 511 K, 239 BB (In 6686 ABs - one of the worst OBPs ever) SB 169, CS 108


2004 New York Yankees vs. 2004 Chicago White Sox

Same BA HR Slg.
NYY .268 242 .458
CWS .268 242 .457

Runs Walks SB / CS Sacrifices
NYY 897 670 84 / 33 37
CWS 865 499 78 / 51 58

New York scored 30 more runs by Walking and not running the bases and bunting like idiots. Kenny Williams wants to lower HRs / Slg and replace with small ball players who "move runners along, run (ie. CS) and "handle the bat." The White Sox lead the league in HRs which Kenny wants to decrease. They lead the league in Sacrifices and Caught Stealing which Kenny wants to increase.

So the Chicago White Sox go into the offseason trying to trade their best hitter in 2004 (Paul Konerko) and to obtain small ball players since league leading Home Run hitters are "Inconsistent".

Ozzie and Kenny must go (as well as the managing partner who hired them Jerry Reinsdorf) before White Sox fans can support and expect victory from the team.

doublem23
11-15-2004, 05:34 PM
Agreed. While the Sox need to learn how to play smallball at appropriate times, thinking that playing smallball the entire season will produce a winner in the American League is absurd.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 05:36 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&co ntent_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&content_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Kenny Williams - Quote "We hope to have a team built around our pitching staff. But anyone who watched us play in 2004 realizes that we need to be more athletic, better defensively and quicker on the bases. Slugging it out night after night is just too inconsistent. You need thunder in the middle of your lineup, especially in the American League, but at the top and at the bottom, we need guys who can get on base, run, move runners along and handle the bat. I want to give Ozzie a team he can play with and really manage during games."

I.e - players more like themselves

Kenny Williams
451 Games, .218 BA, .269 OBP, .339 Slg, 290 K, 56 BB

Ozzie Guillen
1993 Games, .264 BA, .287 OBP, .338 Slg, 511 K, 239 BB (In 6686 ABs - one of the worst OBPs ever) SB 169, CS 108


2004 New York Yankees vs. 2004 Chicago White Sox

Same BA HR Slg.
NYY .268 242 .458
CWS .268 242 .457

Runs Walks SB / CS Sacrifices
NYY 897 670 84 / 33 37
CWS 865 499 78 / 51 58

New York scored 30 more runs by Walking and not running the bases and bunting like idiots. Kenny Williams wants to lower HRs / Slg and replace with small ball players who "move runners along, run (ie. CS) and "handle the bat." The White Sox lead the league in HRs which Kenny wants to decrease. They lead the league in Sacrifices and Caught Stealing which Kenny wants to increase.

So the Chicago White Sox go into the offseason trying to trade their best hitter in 2004 (Paul Konerko) and to obtain small ball players since league leading Home Run hitters are "Inconsistent".

Ozzie and Kenny must go (as well as the managing partner who hired them Jerry Reinsdorf) before White Sox fans can support and expect victory from the team.Yeah. Why change a winning formula?

jshanahanjr
11-15-2004, 05:39 PM
This is great! I'm sure glad Ozzie could field for his sake.

pudge
11-15-2004, 05:40 PM
You're the one with a small mind, my friend. But hey, welcome to WSI!

The Yankees were also the first team to ever blow an 0-3 lead.... Why? Because their on-again-off-again power lineup went OFF at the wrong time.

I agree that too much bunting is simply dumb. But to say the Sox offense is just fine because it was on par with the Yankees is equally troublesome. This team really does need guys who can "get on base" at the top and bottom. Let's not rip Kenny for trading away Konerko when he hasn't even done so.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 05:45 PM
So the Chicago White Sox go into the offseason trying to trade their best hitter in 2004 (Paul Konerko) and to obtain small ball players since league leading Home Run hitters are "Inconsistent".
While I agree with the tone of your post, I have to disagree with the notion that Konerko was our "best hitter." That honor clearly goes to Rowand, who was consistent with above average power all year. Konerko was our best slugger - but he grounded into way too many double plays and didn't really hit for high average.

If there were another Aaron Rowand out there, I'd take him over Konerko any day of the week. Speed, Defense, Hitting, Slugging.

TheBull19
11-15-2004, 05:56 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&co ntent_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&content_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Kenny Williams " You need thunder in the middle of your lineup, especially in the American League, but at the top and at the bottom, we need guys who can get on base... "

.
I think you overlooked this section of the quote.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-15-2004, 05:56 PM
Kenny's plan, per his own words in the linked article, stated that his team must be quicker, run the bases quicker.

The point of an offense is to score runs. They do this by not wasting outs. The fact is the White Sox need to run the bases SMARTER, not quicker. I couldn't count the number of times a stupid base running error, caught stealing or wasted out (bunting) took the Sox out of inning after wasted inning.

The problem with the 2004 Chicago White Sox was not their league leading (tied with the Yankees) offense or the fact that they didn't steal enough bases or move enough runners over. The problem with the 2004 Chicago White Sox rests on the weak shoulders of the pitching staff.

Kenny Williams needs to address the points of weakness on the Sox, namely pitchers. He has once again done great damage to the Sox by giving up good everyday cheap (for several years) young starters (Reed, Olivo) for 3 months of Garcia to clinch 2nd place (when he could have signed him this off season). He traded for an out of shape Carl Everett who we are stuck with in 2005. I expect a mid season 2005 and 2006 trade with a team trying to dump Roberto Alomar yet again.

Being a team that will not spend higher than the average mid market team (and less than the division champion Twins), it is crucial that the Sox sign / retain as many low priced young good players who they can keep for the first several years at low cost while concentrating a the few key signings that can make a difference.

Planning to change what is working (ie League Leading Offense) and giving up youth (The Top minor League System that Kenny Williams helped build (credit where credit is due) has been dismantled into the laughing stock where we cannot find 1 pitcher to fill the $5 hole over the past few years - Kenny should have stayed in play development - As MoneyBall and the Todd Ritchie, Bill Koch / Keith Foulke, Jose Contreras and other debacles prove he is way over his head in the GM role) to continue signing and trading for FOOGs (Friends of Ozzie Guillen) and late 30s / early 40s players is turning the Sox from a contender to a pretender fast.

We DONT need players like Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams. We need players like Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowland who get on base and contribute to scoring runs, not pointless action which decreases run production.

hold2dibber
11-15-2004, 06:00 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&co ntent_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041005&content_id=883561&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Kenny Williams - Quote "We hope to have a team built around our pitching staff. But anyone who watched us play in 2004 realizes that we need to be more athletic, better defensively and quicker on the bases. Slugging it out night after night is just too inconsistent. You need thunder in the middle of your lineup, especially in the American League, but at the top and at the bottom, we need guys who can get on base, run, move runners along and handle the bat. I want to give Ozzie a team he can play with and really manage during games."

I.e - players more like themselves

2004 New York Yankees vs. 2004 Chicago White Sox

Same BA HR Slg.
NYY .268 242 .458
CWS .268 242 .457

Runs Walks SB / CS Sacrifices
NYY 897 670 84 / 33 37
CWS 865 499 78 / 51 58

New York scored 30 more runs by Walking and not running the bases and bunting like idiots. Kenny Williams wants to lower HRs / Slg and replace with small ball players who "move runners along, run (ie. CS) and "handle the bat." The White Sox lead the league in HRs which Kenny wants to decrease. They lead the league in Sacrifices and Caught Stealing which Kenny wants to increase.

So the Chicago White Sox go into the offseason trying to trade their best hitter in 2004 (Paul Konerko) and to obtain small ball players since league leading Home Run hitters are "Inconsistent".
Did you even read the quote you posted? KW didn't say he wants to get rid of the power guys in the middle of the line-up; he says just the opposite, that he wants to keep them (i.e., "You need thunder in the middle of your lineup") Then he says he wants to supplement those guys with guys at the bottom and the top who can get on base and run well. That, IMHO, is exactly what this team needs.

rdivaldi
11-15-2004, 06:07 PM
He has once again done great damage to the Sox by giving up good everyday cheap (for several years) young starters (Reed, Olivo) for 3 months of Garcia to clinch 2nd place (when he could have signed him this off season).
So you really think we would have been able to sign Garcia during the offseason, outbidding the likes of the Yankees, Red Sox, etc.

I suggest you rethink that statement....

Palehose13
11-15-2004, 06:11 PM
Did you even read the quote you posted? KW didn't say he wants to get rid of the power guys in the middle of the line-up; he says just the opposite, that he wants to keep them (i.e., "You need thunder in the middle of your lineup") Then he says he wants to supplement those guys with guys at the bottom and the top who can get on base and run well. That, IMHO, is exactly what this team needs.
I don't think he did, but if he did...he didn't get it.

I would also liek to point out that you also quoted KW as saying "we need guys who can get on base,". Since KW and OG didn't have such great OBP, doesn't that mean that they DON'T want guys like them in that aspect? Just a thought.

BTW...I agree with KW. Keep the thunder 3-5(or 6) and get some high OBP guys for the rest of the line up. I'm tired of 1 run dingers. :mad:

Wealz
11-15-2004, 06:21 PM
The thing that Williams and Guillen don't seem to understand is this offense needs to be dramatically improved, especially without Ordonez.

It's not that the Sox can't play "small ball", it's that Crede, Davis, Harris, Borchard and Perez are out machines and need to be replaced.

Over By There
11-15-2004, 06:24 PM
We need players like ... Aaron Rowland ...Don't forget Jose Valentine! :tongue:

SouthSide_HitMen
11-15-2004, 06:34 PM
So you really think we would have been able to sign Garcia during the offseason, outbidding the likes of the Yankees, Red Sox, etc.

I suggest you rethink that statement....
What I am saying is that it is crucial for the Sox to keep as many good / young low priced (for their first several years) players and three months of Garcia is not worth the price of giving up a good portion of their line-up. If Garcia wanted to come to the Sox in 2005 to be with his in law Ozzie Guillen, he would have signed. if not there are other free agents out there (Pavano, Martinez, Clement) who we could have signed and still retained our starters.

Without the Contreras (stuck with through 2006!) and Garcia trades and assuming we used Mag's $ eleswhere, here is what 2005 could have looked like:

RF J Reed SP M Buehrle
CF A Rowland SP C Pavano
DH F Thomas SP F Garcia
1B P Konerko SP J Garland
LF C Lee SP Low Teir Free Agent or Schoeneweis
3B M Lowell RP S Takatsu
SS J Uribe RP D Marte
C M Olivo RP C Politte
2B W Harris RP J Adkins
RP M Jackson

Garica, Pavano & Lowell's salaries (about $28 mil) would be covered by
1. No Contreras $ 6mil
2. No Mags $14 mil
3. No C Everett $4 mil

The lineup would have same / higher OBP (No Valentine, Crede) and several younger players with low salaries for the next few years (Reed, Rowland, Olivo, Harris). The Sox could use additional money to get an better 5th starter or to fill an additional spot or two on the bench.

I am a passionate White Sox fan who wants to improve the team now and for the next several years. To continue to deplete any depth and sign over the hill (Thank GOD Vazquel moved on) players is not the formula for success.

The Sox must retain young good everyday position players (and start developing pitchers) and sign the 5 or 6 key players to get them over the hump.

HITMEN OF 77
11-15-2004, 06:37 PM
While I agree with the tone of your post, I have to disagree with the notion that Konerko was our "best hitter." That honor clearly goes to Rowand, who was consistent with above average power all year. Konerko was our best slugger - but he grounded into way too many double plays and didn't really hit for high average.

If there were another Aaron Rowand out there, I'd take him over Konerko any day of the week. Speed, Defense, Hitting, Slugging.
Rowand had a great year and so did C Lee, but Konerko was by far our best hitter.

California Sox
11-15-2004, 06:40 PM
The Sox say they want to get away from one-dimensional sluggers and put a more athletic team on the field. And yet, the only multi-dimensional player the team had (Maggs) is gone. The minor league player who best fit the description of what KW seems to be looking for (Jeremy Reed) is gone. Meanwhile, all the one-dimensional sluggers (Crede, Borchard, Uribe, Davis, etc.) are still here. Actions speak louder than words.

jshanahanjr
11-15-2004, 06:41 PM
Rowand had a great year and so did C Lee, but Konerko was by far our best hitter.
I agree with ya 77.

ondafarm
11-15-2004, 06:46 PM
Same BA HR Slg.
NYY .268 242 .458
CWS .268 242 .457

Runs Walks SB / CS Sacrifices
NYY 897 670 84 / 33 37
CWS 865 499 78 / 51 58

New York scored 30 more runs by Walking and not running the bases and bunting like idiots.
The White Sox did bunt like idiots, but it wasn't the number of bunts called, the number of bunts executed was abyssmal.


Kenny Williams wants to lower HRs / Slg and replace with small ball players who "move runners along, run (ie. CS) and "handle the bat." The White Sox lead the league in HRs which Kenny wants to decrease. They lead the league in Sacrifices and Caught Stealing which Kenny wants to increase.
No, running increases SBs and handling the bat well results in clutch hitting, which the steady diet of homerun hitters the White Sox have fielded seem unable to do.

A good small ball team, like say the Twins, will beat a decent long ball team, like the White Sox, pretty consistently. If you can't beat 'em, adapt.

Nick@Nite
11-15-2004, 06:54 PM
The Sox say they want to get away from one-dimensional sluggers and put a more athletic team on the field. And yet, the only multi-dimensional player the team had (Maggs) is gone.Maggs has only one leg now-a-days. Btw, who's Maggs?

Saying the Sox no longer have multi-dimensional players is forgetting El Caballo.

Wealz
11-15-2004, 07:00 PM
No, running increases SBs and handling the bat well results in clutch hitting, which the steady diet of homerun hitters the White Sox have fielded seem unable to do.

A good small ball team, like say the Twins, will beat a decent long ball team, like the White Sox, pretty consistently. If you can't beat 'em, adapt.
I don't know if any of this is true. Sources?

FightingBillini
11-15-2004, 07:05 PM
What I am saying is that it is crucial for the Sox to keep as many good / young low priced (for their first several years) players and three months of Garcia is not worth the price of giving up a good portion of their line-up. If Garcia wanted to come to the Sox in 2005 to be with his in law Ozzie Guillen, he would have signed. if not there are other free agents out there (Pavano, Martinez, Clement) who we could have signed and still retained our starters.

Without the Contreras (stuck with through 2006!) and Garcia trades and assuming we used Mag's $ eleswhere, here is what 2005 could have looked like:

RF J Reed SP M Buehrle
CF A Rowland SP C Pavano
DH F Thomas SP F Garcia
1B P Konerko SP J Garland
LF C Lee SP Low Teir Free Agent or Schoeneweis
3B M Lowell RP S Takatsu
SS J Uribe RP D Marte
C M Olivo RP C Politte
2B W Harris RP J Adkins
RP M Jackson

Garica, Pavano & Lowell's salaries (about $28 mil) would be covered by
1. No Contreras $ 6mil
2. No Mags $14 mil
3. No C Everett $4 mil

The lineup would have same / higher OBP (No Valentine, Crede) and several younger players with low salaries for the next few years (Reed, Rowland, Olivo, Harris). The Sox could use additional money to get an better 5th starter or to fill an additional spot or two on the bench.

I am a passionate White Sox fan who wants to improve the team now and for the next several years. To continue to deplete any depth and sign over the hill (Thank GOD Vazquel moved on) players is not the formula for success.

The Sox must retain young good everyday position players (and start developing pitchers) and sign the 5 or 6 key players to get them over the hump.
I agree. We should have never traded for Garcia. In fact, I expect Kenny to use a damn time machine this summer. If he goes foward in time and sees we dont make the playoffs, then please dont trade away young talent!! I have had enough of that whole "trading minor leaguers to get talent for the stretch run" bs. Look what it got us! Unless we are in first by 10 games at tbe break, its dumb to make trades to better the team. I dont want our team to get better. I want a GM who will sit by idly at the trading deadline as our competition makes moves. Not only that, but I wont come here to bitch about us losing in August. In fact, I will go to MORE games when we are 8 out in September.

johnny_mostil
11-15-2004, 07:07 PM
The problem with the 2004 Chicago White Sox was not their league leading (tied with the Yankees) offense or the fact that they didn't steal enough bases or move enough runners over. The problem with the 2004 Chicago White Sox rests on the weak shoulders of the pitching staff.

I'm with you on the rest of your quote but this is borderline balderdash. The ballpark warps our perceptions. USCF has now become an extreme hitter's park because it turns doubles and long flies into homers. The overall pitching was actually slightly above average. The average AL ERA park-adjusted for USCF is almost 5.00.

The offense was at least half the problem, because there were too many low-OBP out machines on the team short-circuiting the offense.

johnny_mostil
11-15-2004, 07:14 PM
No, running increases SBs and handling the bat well results in clutch hitting, which the steady diet of homerun hitters the White Sox have fielded seem unable to do.

SBs cost you runs unless you succeed 70% of the time, and clutch hitting doesn't really exist, only good hitting and bad hitting. (No teal. Nobody has ever successfully identified a repeatable, season-to-season pattern of clutch hitting. Ever. And a lot of people have looked desperately for it.)

The 2004 White Sox did not lose the division because they couldn't play for one run -- to the contrary, they were better at it than most teams. They lost the division because guys like Joe Crede and Timo Perez and Joe Borchard and Ben Davis and Jose Valentin just didn't get on base often enough to keep a consistent offense going. It wasn't the home run hitting that killed the team, it was these hitters getting themselves out, popping up trying to drive pitcher's pitches up and out of the strike zone. There is nothing wrong with trying to hit the cripple into the seats, just with trying to hit pitches that are, by design, unhittable. The Sox teach this approach, and they need to stop.

Please, don't forget that the team that won the Series used the bunt and steal less than almost anyone in major league history. They won by playing exclusively for big innings. They had very little speed, and certainly didn't hit behind runners or anything else, they just kicked your can. They had to, they play in a bandbox, and, ladies and gentlemen, so do the Chicago White Sox.

maurice
11-15-2004, 07:14 PM
Rowand clearly was the best Sox hitter in 2004 by any reasonable measure, especially with all the games missed by Thomas and Ordonez. Rowand had a higher AVE, OPS, OBP, and SLG than Konerko.

johnny_mostil
11-15-2004, 07:20 PM
Rowand clearly was the best Sox hitter in 2004 by any reasonable measure, especially with all the games missed by Thomas and Ordonez. Rowand had a higher AVE, OPS, OBP, and SLG than Konerko.
Don't forget the 23 GiDPs by Konerko. Rowand and Lee were the two most productive hitters on the team. Frank's numbers absolutely dwarfed everybody but he only got to play just under half the season.

Timo, Sandy, LTP, and Robbie were just totally awful. Crede and Valentin were bad, too.

Palehose13
11-15-2004, 07:22 PM
Rowand clearly was the best Sox hitter in 2004 by any reasonable measure, especially with all the games missed by Thomas and Ordonez. Rowand had a higher AVE, OPS, OBP, and SLG than Konerko.Yep. What he said. :gulp:

ondafarm
11-15-2004, 07:37 PM
Please, don't forget that the team that won the Series used the bunt and steal less than almost anyone in major league history. They won by playing exclusively for big innings. They had very little speed, and certainly didn't hit behind runners or anything else, they just kicked your can. They had to, they play in a bandbox, and, ladies and gentlemen, so do the Chicago White Sox.
They won because no one on their team with 400+ ABs had an OBP less than .373. The White Sox suffered with two under .300 and had no one as high as .373 who had 400 ABs.

The Red Sox got on base and that scores runs. The White Sox did not get on base often enough. They most certainly did hit behind runners and get the single to drive in a run; they also hit a few HRs (222) but their little guys didn't swing for 25 HRs, they got on base. That's good small ball, and it takes more brains than big ball.

Daver
11-15-2004, 07:47 PM
It wasn't the home run hitting that killed the team, it was these hitters getting themselves out, popping up trying to drive pitcher's pitches up and out of the strike zone. There is nothing wrong with trying to hit the cripple into the seats, just with trying to hit pitches that are, by design, unhittable. The Sox teach this approach, and they need to stop.
.
Your a member of the Sox coaching staff?

SouthSide_HitMen
11-15-2004, 08:49 PM
A good small ball team, like say the Twins, will beat a decent long ball team, like the White Sox, pretty consistently. If you can't beat 'em, adapt.
The Twins beat us because they have superior starters - Cy Young Award Winner Santana and Radke and a better bullpen with more depth, not because they had more "small ball" runs.

The Chicago White Sox 2004 edition led the league in runs. The offense wasn't, isn't and won't be a problem. And this was with Thomas and Ordonez out since June.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-15-2004, 08:56 PM
I agree. We should have never traded for Garcia. In fact, I expect Kenny to use a damn time machine this summer. If he goes foward in time and sees we dont make the playoffs, then please dont trade away young talent!! I have had enough of that whole "trading minor leaguers to get talent for the stretch run" bs. Look what it got us! Unless we are in first by 10 games at tbe break, its dumb to make trades to better the team. I dont want our team to get better. I want a GM who will sit by idly at the trading deadline as our competition makes moves. Not only that, but I wont come here to bitch about us losing in August. In fact, I will go to MORE games when we are 8 out in September.
You should take a time machine to late June 2004 so you could remember that Thomas and Ordonez were already likely done for the season BEFORE Kenny G pulled the trigger to get the Ozzaroo's cousin's husband on board to "clinch" 2nd place which they almost blew.

Kenny Williams took over with the #1 minor league system as judged by several publications. Today we can't find 1 single pitcher to produce a start in the 5 hole, lost several young top rated prospects (Reed, Olivo, K Wells), the best closer in this years playoffs (Foulke) and all we have to show for it is several second place finishes.

Now if you like to go to the Sox games hoping to be a solid second place team in a five team division, then Kenny is your man. In fact Bud Selig might add two teams so we can have 16 two team divisions and then if the Sox are in Kansas City's two team division we might actually make the playoffs.

Man Soo Lee
11-15-2004, 09:04 PM
You should take a time machine to late June 2004 so you could remember that Thomas and Ordonez were already likely done for the season BEFORE Kenny G pulled the trigger to get the Ozzaroo's cousin's husband on board to "clinch" 2nd place which they almost blew.
Wrong. Frank was still in the lineup and Maggs was expected back within weeks from arthroscopic knee surgery.

johnny_mostil
11-15-2004, 09:19 PM
The Chicago White Sox 2004 edition led the league in runs. The offense wasn't, isn't and won't be a problem. And this was with Thomas and Ordonez out since June.
No, they did not. The Red Sox led the league in runs, by a ton. The Yankees also outscored the White Sox. The problem is, the 865 runs was in a park that now severely inflates run scoring. The team record with Thomas out was basically awful. The offense is NOT OK and pretending it is would be foolish.

bc2k
11-15-2004, 09:47 PM
Wrong. Frank was still in the lineup and Maggs was expected back within weeks from arthroscopic knee surgery.
It is acceptable to mortgage the future success of a team in a year when the team is one or two players from being Series contenders. It is acceptable to overpay for those two players since it could result in a World Series victory.
At the time of the Garcia trade, even with healthy Thomas and Maggs, the 2004 White Sox needed much more than Freddy Garcia to have a chance at the Series.

Since the Sox were very likely not going to get past the ALDS (even with Garcia), it would have been wiser to keep Olivo and Reed for the 2005 season and many beyond, while adding Freddy Garcia or a starter of his caliber in the offseason. As Hangar18 often points out, you don't fill a hole by creating two more like the Sox did with the Garcia trade. ESPECIALLY when those two good players traded away give payroll flexibility to add more good players to the team.

I honestly don't see how anyone could disagree with this.

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 10:00 PM
You should take a time machine to late June 2004 so you could remember that Thomas and Ordonez were already likely done for the season BEFORE Kenny G pulled the trigger to get the Ozzaroo's cousin's husband on board to "clinch" 2nd place which they almost blew.
Riiiiiiight. Because at the time of the Garcia trade (6/27), Frank wasn't hurt (that came on 7/6), and Maggs was due back from a "minor" injury in a few weeks (bone marrow edema not even heard of at the time). But you're right, KW should obviously have known they were likely done for the year.

Kenny Williams took over with the #1 minor league system as judged by several publications. Today we can't find 1 single pitcher to produce a start in the 5 hole, lost several young top rated prospects (Reed, Olivo, K Wells), the best closer in this years playoffs (Foulke) and all we have to show for it is several second place finishes.
Let's review that "#1 minor league system", shall we? Kip Wells - decent #3 starter. Josh Fogg - OK NL #5, would get killed in the AL. Matt Ginter - no impact. Jason Stumm - ditto. Joe Crede - still around, not doing much. Joe Borchard - still around, not doing much. Aaron Rowand - just broke out. Jon Rauch - stil around, not doing much. Yeah, if only KW hadn't traded away all of those stars....... (And by the way - Reed & Olivo were never part of that "#1 rated system".)

jeremyb1 - is that you?

jabrch
11-15-2004, 10:26 PM
Flight - I don't know how you have the patience to do it. I have all but stopped arguing with people here since they seem to all be so much smarter than everyone else - including those who run this team for a living. I guess I just don't have the patience you do...

Riiiiiiight. Because at the time of the Garcia trade (6/27), Frank wasn't hurt (that came on 7/6), and Maggs was due back from a "minor" injury in a few weeks (bone marrow edema not even heard of at the time). But you're right, KW should obviously have known they were likely done for the year.


Let's review that "#1 minor league system", shall we? Kip Wells - decent #3 starter. Josh Fogg - OK NL #5, would get killed in the AL. Matt Ginter - no impact. Jason Stumm - ditto. Joe Crede - still around, not doing much. Joe Borchard - still around, not doing much. Aaron Rowand - just broke out. Jon Rauch - stil around, not doing much. Yeah, if only KW hadn't traded away all of those stars....... (And by the way - Reed & Olivo were never part of that "#1 rated system".)

jeremyb1 - is that you?

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 10:33 PM
Flight - I don't know how you have the patience to do it. I have all but stopped arguing with people here since they seem to all be so much smarter than everyone else - including those who run this team for a living. I guess I just don't have the patience you do...
:gulp: :smokin:

It's pretty easy...:)

SouthSide_HitMen
11-15-2004, 11:18 PM
Riiiiiiight. Because at the time of the Garcia trade (6/27), Frank wasn't hurt (that came on 7/6)
Actually, Frank was suffered his injury in early June and tried to play through it for about a month. He looked cripple at the plate, saw his BA drop from .304 to .271 in the limited stretch of games he saw his third and final month and then must appropriately left with "The Big Hurt" for the season. Granted he hit over .270 for the first time since 2000. I am not sure if this is the production Kenny Williams wanted when he resigned him after he could have been released due to his "diminished services" clause (though at least we got 1 good year 2003 out of the deal that contains mutual options through 2006).

As far as Mags was concerned, he did get seven hits including a home run and a double after May 25, well over a month before the savior with the 3.94 ERA (well over 4 over the past 3 seasons) came over to help the overcome The New York Yankees, The Boston Red Sox, etc and eat post game tacos with the Ozzaroo. The Sox still cannot beat a West Coast team (Oak / Ana) nor the small market Twins. The are dreaming if they thought they were a Garcia away from anything outside of possibly annoying the Twins.

Like I said, if you are satisfied with coming in second place in the worst division in baseball, then Kenny Williams is your man. If you want to pray the stars will align and by all miracles the Sox actually reach the playoffs only to get swept once a decade than by all means, enjoy the top notch management skills of the Williams' and Schuelers.

If you like Foulke for Koch (are we still paying for him in 05? How about Julio "Juice" Cruz :wink: ?), then by all means beg Reinsdorf to sign Williams for a lifetime extension.

If you loved the Todd Ritchie deal, (you think the Sox couldn't have used Kip Wells or Joss Fogg) then by all means, send Kenny Williams a Christmas / Kwanza card.

If you are glad we dumped Loaiza with 3 months left on contract for a Cuban pitcher in his mid to late 30s (only his mother knows his age) who can only beat the Royals, Tigers and D Rays (he was 2-9 with a + 5.00 ERA and 2.00 WHIP against teams over .500 in 2004) who has two more years at over $12 million through 2006 who the pitching poor Yankees didn't even want then by all means invite Kenny Williams over for Thanksgiving.

If you love the fact that we acquire Everett every year (who we are now stuck with this year) a player the Ozzaroo "hopes" will arrive in camp in shape; the fact that Roberto Alomar, who we had in the past and who said in the winter of 2004 that he didn't even try when he played for the Mets and White Sox over the past three years, is a annual White Sox trade pickup then by all means be happy to know that the Sox will acquire Roberto Alomar sometime in July 2005.

If Joe Borchard is all you want for 5 full seasons of drafts (2000 - 2004), then Ken Williams must be given at least a 10 year extension so this genius is locked in.

faneidde
11-15-2004, 11:55 PM
Everyone knows I am not a KW fan, but the Garcia trade is by no means one of the reasons to get rid of KW. Did he overpay? Maybe, but I liked the trade at the time, it just didn't work out. KW just seems to have the anti-Midas touch. But some of his trades are just plain crazy (Foulke-Koch, Rictchie, and Everett part 2).

Now, back to the original thread. What the Sox are doing reminds me a little of a football coach who joins a team and wants to run his system regardless of what kind of players he has. In the beginning, it almost never works and the team usually is worse than the year before. As time goes on and the team eventually acquires the players to run the system, things usually go back to how they were with the old system. I think the Sox are in the transitional phase right now. This is not a small ball type team right now. I give Ozzie credit for figuring that out. At his press conference, when he claimed he would make Frank and Mags bunt, I was shocked. To his credit, he never made either of them bunt that I am aware of. He did however, ask PK and Carlos to bunt, and with limited success. So now, the Sox are in the process of trying to get guys who can bunt and run.

However, the offense is not the problem, especially when Frank was healthy. There is no reason to dismantle this offensive line-up. The bullpen other than Marte and the back of the rotation are the problems. The focus should be on fixing those two areas first. Then, get a shortstop who can get on base a little and stay the course. I don't have a problem with the Garcia trade, but isn't Jeremy Reed the kind of player that KW and Ozzie talk about wanting? A guy who has shown good discipline and bat control. And if the Cell has become the launching pad some of you say (not doubting you, just don't feel like doing the research), then wouldn't a line-up that hits for power be to our advantage?

One final note, the Twins beat the Sox mainly because of Johan Santana.

pudge
11-16-2004, 02:33 AM
Like I said, if you are satisfied with coming in second place in the worst division in baseball, then Kenny Williams is your man.
Dude, you come storming into WSI with your first post addressing issues people around here have been taking about FOREVER, and you're getting taken to school by just about everyone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about.

I am fully willing to admit KW has made some costly mistakes, but if you think this team (offense included) doesn't need to be completely re-tooled, then you are the one who must be satisfied with second place.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 03:42 AM
I am fully willing to admit KW has made some costly mistakes, but if you think this team (offense included) doesn't need to be completely re-tooled, then you are the one who must be satisfied with second place.
KW has been in charge since October 2000. He is responsible for the entire roster. I think the team is in much worse shape than when he became GM.

There are no useful prospects in the pipeline for the next few years. We keep acquiring old (Everett, Alomar, Alomar Jr., Contreras) stop gap messures which amount to $10 mil for 2005.

The Sox have Rowand, Konerko and Lee as very good players.
If Thomas and Everett stay healthy, they'll be good players.
Uribe should be fine. Crede, Harris and Davis will be below average starters.

They have Garcia and Buerhle, Garland who hopefully will be good and Contreras who is a huge ?.

And they have Marte, Takatsu who are good (but overworked - may be hurt on a go forward), Politte who is ok and ?s rounding out the pen and no fifth starter.

I would much rather have Reed, Olivo, Lowell (or Renteria) over Everett, Crede and Davis with Contreras' money factored in as a wash.

The Sox have 3 holes on offense, 2 starters and 4 bullpen spots - 9 positions with not much $. That is why it is vital to keep the $500,000 players who can contribute and are young with good upside.

I am going to leave it at that. I like these message boards. They are easy to review the threads / posts quickly.

I look forward to responding to the latest Sox news which I hope will be better than it has been.

maurice
11-16-2004, 12:34 PM
There are no useful prospects in the pipeline for the next few years.
I can name at least four off the top of my head: Anderson, McCarthy, Fields, and Sweeney.

I agree with your individual MLB player assessments (for the most part), and would love to add two starters, four quality bullpen arms, and three bats. However, I don't think that it's necessary to compete. The Sox have been very good at scoring runs for a long time, and their defense will continue to improve. IMHO, they have an excellent shot at winning the division if they're able to add one very good starter, one very good reliever, and upgrade offensively at one IF spot or catcher.

rdivaldi
11-16-2004, 12:43 PM
There are no useful prospects in the pipeline for the next few years.
:gulp:

That's a ridiculous statement. You're starting to make wild claims to back up your stance.

Flight #24
11-16-2004, 12:52 PM
Actually, Frank was suffered his injury in early June and tried to play through it for about a month. He looked cripple at the plate, saw his BA drop from .304 to .271 in the limited stretch of games he saw his third and final month and then must appropriately left with "The Big Hurt" for the season. Granted he hit over .270 for the first time since 2000. I am not sure if this is the production Kenny Williams wanted when he resigned him after he could have been released due to his "diminished services" clause (though at least we got 1 good year 2003 out of the deal that contains mutual options through 2006).

As far as Mags was concerned, he did get seven hits including a home run and a double after May 25, well over a month before the savior with the 3.94 ERA (well over 4 over the past 3 seasons) came over to help the overcome The New York Yankees, The Boston Red Sox, etc and eat post game tacos with the Ozzaroo. The Sox still cannot beat a West Coast team (Oak / Ana) nor the small market Twins. The are dreaming if they thought they were a Garcia away from anything outside of possibly annoying the Twins.
So then you admit that there was no way KW should or could have known that Frank & Maggs were out for the year at the time of the Garcia trade. As for the rst of your comments, the simple fact that the Sox were in first, head of the Twins, and within a couple of games of the best record in baseball at the time seems to fly in the face of your "a Garcia away from anything outside of annoying the Twins". I'll bet the Twins were plenty annoyed to be looking up at the Sox at the time of the trade.

But go ahead, hindsight looks mighty good as do factless allegations.