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ma-gaga
11-14-2004, 11:01 PM
Easy question here. Do you want the starting SS for the W.Sox to be C.Guzman next year?

*crap* I meant to do a poll

FightingBillini
11-14-2004, 11:04 PM
no

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 11:06 PM
No. No. No.

Sorry, I can't just say it once. I don't want him. I will be extremely pissed if we sign this bum.

ChiWhiteSox1337
11-14-2004, 11:11 PM
No. His only redeemable quality is his speed. Unfortunately, he has a horrible OBP and is unable to utilize his speed to an extent that he would be better than Uribe as the starting SS on the 2005 white sox.

akingamongstmen
11-14-2004, 11:24 PM
That would be a big NO. Uribe at SS and Harris at 2B is significantly better.

Jabroni
11-14-2004, 11:36 PM
No. Put Uribe at SS, Willie at 2B, and spend the money on a catcher that can get on base and hit (i.e. Kendall). Why spend money on Guzman when Uribe is better?

dugwood31
11-14-2004, 11:41 PM
I'll dissent, for the sake of the thread. Here's the argument: Unless we get Nomar or Renteria, he's be the best guy, dollar for dollar, available. I haven't checked but I'm sure his numbers compare somewhat favorably to Cabrera.

I_Liked_Manuel
11-14-2004, 11:52 PM
absolutely not.

my friends from minnesota couldnt wait to get rid of him

hitlesswonder
11-15-2004, 12:16 AM
I'll dissent, for the sake of the thread. Here's the argument: Unless we get Nomar or Renteria, he's be the best guy, dollar for dollar, available. I haven't checked but I'm sure his numbers compare somewhat favorably to Cabrera.Thanks for dissenting :smile: You're right about Guzman and Cabrera, but I think the best thing for the Sox to do, assuming they insist on adding infield help, would be to focus on 2nd basemen. Polanco, Todd Walker, or even (gasp) Eric Young would be better signings than Guzman. Uribe is just as good a defensive SS as Guzman IMO, and last year his offense was better. He'll also be $4 million cheaper I would guess. Polanco would be nice because he's a #2 hitter that can play 2B/3B.

Relevant stats for Guzman, Cabrera, and Uribe
---------------------------------------------
Guzman's career (BA/OBP/OPS) .266/.303/.685 age 26
Cabrera .264/.306/.689 age 30
Uribe .266/.307/.744 age 24

Cabrera had a great 2003 (.807 OPS) and Guzman a great 2001 (.814 OPS) and Uribe a great 2004 (.833 OPS).

I wouldn't want either of Guzman or Cabrera.

fusillirob1983
11-15-2004, 12:29 AM
Don't get Guzman.

minastirith67
11-15-2004, 12:41 AM
No

depy48
11-15-2004, 12:45 AM
if i said it once, i've said it a thousand times
NO THUGS!

JB98
11-15-2004, 12:55 AM
I'd rather bring back Valentin than sign Guzman. I can't think of anything that Guzman does well.

Uribe is my SS for 2005. I hope we sign a 2B. I have no faith in Willie Harris.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 12:59 AM
Please no...

dugwood31
11-15-2004, 01:06 AM
We're pretty quick to dismiss a major cog on a team that has kicked our butt consistently.:cool:

FightingBillini
11-15-2004, 01:14 AM
We're pretty quick to dismiss a major cog on a team that has kicked our butt consistently.:cool:
OK, I see your reasoning. So do you think Kansas City will want Mike Jackson becuase we kicked their butts?

WhiteSoxFan84
11-15-2004, 01:31 AM
OK, I see your reasoning. So do you think Kansas City will want Mike Jackson becuase we kicked their butts?
Yes, infact, Tony G. was recruiting Mike Jackson 5 last week. They were spotted at a diner together in KC.

Why don't we kill 2 birds with one stone, sign Edgar Renteria. This way we get that hitter to replace 3/4 of Magglio's production (maybe all of it) and we fill a hole we've had since... man I'm too young to remember when was the last time we had a great all around shortstop.

basilesox
11-15-2004, 02:22 AM
We're pretty quick to dismiss a major cog on a team that has kicked our butt consistently.:cool:
This guy can be no way considered a major cog on Minny.....I would rather see us sign Jacque Jones and put him in RF...Now that guy is closer to major cog status than Guzman.

Foulke You
11-15-2004, 02:53 AM
We'd be better off bringing Jose Valentin back than getting Guzman. Guzman would be a big downgrade at SS. I'd rather have Uribe at SS and take my chances with Willie at 2B to start '05 than have Guzman.

If we sign Guzman it seems like a move just to make a move. Yes, we'd have a change at SS but would it be for the better? I think the unanimous opinion on this thread is no.

TRL
11-15-2004, 05:42 AM
Guzman is garbage. If he signs with us he won't get the benefit of all the turf hits that he slaps right in front of home plate for infield singles.

SSN721
11-15-2004, 05:53 AM
Absolutely not, sucks for the money he will most likely command.

ondafarm
11-15-2004, 07:08 AM
No.

beck72
11-15-2004, 10:08 AM
Yes. Guzman would be an upgrade over Jose V. and improve the Sox. He's a #9 hitter, 26 yrs old, a few years removed from a .302/.337/.477 allstar year [2001], plays stellar SS, is a switch hitter, has speed to SB's and run the bases, makes contact, and can handle the bat [13 SH in 04].

Minn. used him as a #2 hitter and that wasn't the spot for him. His splits as a #9 hitter the last two yrs are over .300/.350/ .400

beck72
11-15-2004, 10:15 AM
I never really thought much about Cristian Guzman. Though I've always been impressed by his SS defense on the Twins. And I just thought of him as a "slap hitter". But seeing how Omar Vizquel was plan A for the sox at SS, I started looking around for a plan B. It looks like I've found it.

Signing Vizquel made sense. He was steady, solid, and would have provided the sox with some missing pieces--SB's, a switch hitter, a good bunter, good defense, and a #2 hitter. No longer spectacular, he was bound to go down from his 2004 yr. In essence, he was the safe choice.

Yet Guzman has an upside that very well could surpass Vizquel, at about the same price [$5 mill a yr probably, for 2, 3 yrs]. Yet, at age 26, with 6 yrs experience in the league, Guzman has the talent and tools to fill what Vizquel could have given the Sox, [even though Guzman isn't a #2 hitter].

I saw this article about Guzman and Rivas earlier this yr, that has helped me learn more about Guzman. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1768921

In it, Guzman's teammates [koskie, Mientky, and Jose Offerman--who sees Guzman exploding-- and Gardenhire praised him for his work ethic and talent. Yet injuries have hampered his play. The part where his swollen knee made him look like a "circus freak" told me something: Here was a gamer who didn't miss much time while playing the hardest position on the field. And he also sounded a lot like Uribe, who hadnít yet put all his tools together. Guzman did make the all-star team in 2001, at the early age of 23. No wonder people view him as a disappointment. He hasnít replicated what he did when he was younger. The key is unlocking his talent.

Guzman's potential, and the challenge, seems pretty clear--improving on his 2001 yr of .302/ .337/ .477, when he had 52 extra base hits [with 20 triples!], and 25 Sb's. With his defense and speed, if he can hit upwards of .280 for the sox, [he hit .274 last yr] while hitting in the 9th spot, he'd be a very solid pickup.

I see Guzman breaking out like Juan Uribe did [even though Guzman has more speed], and approaching his 2001 numbers more than his 2004 numbers. My reasons:
1] In ESPN's player profile, it said that Minn. changed his hitting approach after his breakout 2001 yr, making him swing down on balls to hit them on the turf. They messed w/ his swing, after he had success. Why? They wanted him to be a #2 hitter because they needed one. Heís not. He could be. But heís a #9 hitter. His splits the last two yrs: this yr- in 76 abís as #9-.303/.346/.408; as #2, in 193 abís: .244/.278/.326; in 2003: as #9, in more ABís, 186-.301/.367/.419. In the #2 hole, in 307 abís--.238/.268/.313.
2] Guzman has hit in the past, and has the tools to do it again. Heís had various injuries [shoulder, knee] that probably have hurt his numbers.
3] Minn. hasnít had a lot of success with Latino ball players. Theyíve had success with minor leaguers whoíve had good OBP and plate discipline at an early age. Yet not so much with Latinos, who traditionally develop patience at the plate as they get older and more pro experience. Look at Ortiz breaking out in his two yrs in Boston. Luis Rivas and Guzman have struggled. The Sox clubhouse and hitting approach seem to be a good fit for Guzman.
4] Guzmanís speed [baserunning, if not SBís] and defense are very above average.
5] He can do the little things, like switch hit [a big plus], bunt, as his 13 SH last yr and 14 in 2003 indicate, and make contact. His BB / K rate is improving to a best 30 BB/ 64 Kís.
6] If the sox want to get to the playoffs and World series, theyíll need some players having break out yrs. Guzman is a guy who likely could have a breakout yr, if he stays healthy and adjusts to his new team.
7] Heís affordable [money and contract length], and could be a great value. The sox could still fill other holes.


While I donít think Guzman is the pick up that would put the sox in the playoffs [I do believe trading for a leadoff man like Jason Kendall is the key to the sox season], IMO, Guzman would be a solid choice for SS now that Vizquel has signed w/ the Giants

southsider17
11-15-2004, 10:21 AM
Nice post! Very informative. But I'm still not sold, though you have moved me to the maybe category. I still like the idea of Polanco at 2B and letting Uribe and valdez battle for SS.

JasonC23
11-15-2004, 10:21 AM
Let's see...Juan Uribe is younger, cheaper, and better than Guzman.

So, uh, NO!!!

Seriously, people, ask Aaron Gleeman if he thinks the Sox should sign Guzman. He'll say yes so fast it would make your head spin.

And he's a Twins fan.

ma-gaga
11-15-2004, 10:35 AM
Yet Guzman has an upside that very well could surpass Vizquel, at about the same price [$5 mill a yr probably, for 2, 3 yrs].
...
Guzman did make the all-star team in 2001, at the early age of 23. No wonder people view him as a disappointment. He hasnít replicated what he did when he was younger.
...
it said that Minn. changed his hitting approach after his breakout 2001 yr, making him swing down on balls to hit them on the turf. They messed w/ his swing, after he had success.
...
3] Minn. hasnít had a lot of success with Latino ball players. Theyíve had success with minor leaguers whoíve had good OBP and plate discipline at an early age. Yet not so much with Latinos, who traditionally develop patience at the plate as they get older and more pro experience. Look at Ortiz breaking out in his two yrs in Boston. Luis Rivas and Guzman have struggled. The Sox clubhouse and hitting approach seem to be a good fit for Guzman.
4] Guzmanís speed [baserunning, if not SBís] and defense are very above average.
...
7] Heís affordable [money and contract length], and could be a great value. The sox could still fill other holes.
ok. This is a good rant. Here's why you don't want C.Guzman. $5MM a year is too much money for a 26 year old SS that can't hit. He's been a good slap hitter, and this year he ate up all the grounders that were anywhere near him. He got injured at the all-star game in 2001. For whatever reason, when he dislocated his shoulder it took out his aggresiveness, and his "all-star" ability. It's been 3.5 years since the injury and we still don't see the C.Guzman of pre-all-star break 2001. Maybe it comes back next year, I wouldn't bet $5MM on it.

This isn't the first time that I've heard that the Twins asked Guzman to change his swing. It bugs me when teams do that. But I think he was trying to drive the ball, and with his power/speed the Twins felt like he should be a "chopper" type hitter, like Ichiro. The problem, is that Guzman isn't as good or as fast as Ichiro.

3.) David Ortiz couldn't stay healthy as a Twin. The Twins did try to mess with his swing, but Ortiz's health more than anything else forced the Twins to release him.

4.) Look at the GIDP for Guzman. For all his speed, he can't help hitting into a ton of DPs. Part of that was S.Stewart getting on in front of him when he was the #2 hitter, but he was terrible. His speed is overrated.

7.) $5MM a year would be a terrible signing. If you can get him for $2MM to $3MM, that would be a decent deal.

The Twins benched him for Nick Punto. That's really all you need to know about C.Guzman. The Twins benched him numerous times for being lackidasical in the field. The only reason C.Guzman got as many AB's this year is because his backups got hurt. You want no part of him, unless you can get him for cheap. Let someone else make the mistake of overpaying him.

mdep524
11-15-2004, 10:58 AM
Yes.









Oh wait, I mean NO!!! :angry:

beck72
11-15-2004, 10:59 AM
ok. This is a good rant. Here's why you don't want C.Guzman. $5MM a year is too much money for a 26 year old SS that can't hit. He's been a good slap hitter, and this year he ate up all the grounders that were anywhere near him. He got injured at the all-star game in 2001. For whatever reason, when he dislocated his shoulder it took out his aggresiveness, and his "all-star" ability. It's been 3.5 years since the injury and we still don't see the C.Guzman of pre-all-star break 2001. Maybe it comes back next year, I wouldn't bet $5MM on it.

This isn't the first time that I've heard that the Twins asked Guzman to change his swing. It bugs me when teams do that. But I think he was trying to drive the ball, and with his power/speed the Twins felt like he should be a "chopper" type hitter, like Ichiro. The problem, is that Guzman isn't as good or as fast as Ichiro.

3.) David Ortiz couldn't stay healthy as a Twin. The Twins did try to mess with his swing, but Ortiz's health more than anything else forced the Twins to release him.

4.) Look at the GIDP for Guzman. For all his speed, he can't help hitting into a ton of DPs. Part of that was S.Stewart getting on in front of him when he was the #2 hitter, but he was terrible. His speed is overrated.

7.) $5MM a year would be a terrible signing. If you can get him for $2MM to $3MM, that would be a decent deal.

The Twins benched him for Nick Punto. That's really all you need to know about C.Guzman. The Twins benched him numerous times for being lackidasical in the field. The only reason C.Guzman got as many AB's this year is because his backups got hurt. You want no part of him, unless you can get him for cheap. Let someone else make the mistake of overpaying him.
First off, saying a post is a "rant" doesn't exactly start you off on a good note. Disrespect is the 1st way not to get your points taken seriously.

2nd, I take it your from Minny. So you should have some inside info. Yet the article has many good things said about him from his teammates.

3rd, Many of the same criticisms were said about Uribe in Col. if they are true, the sox dont need him. If not, then he could well need a fresh start.

hold2dibber
11-15-2004, 11:00 AM
I never really thought much about Cristian Guzman. Though I've always been impressed by his SS defense on the Twins. And I just thought of him as a "slap hitter". But seeing how Omar Vizquel was plan A for the sox at SS, I started looking around for a plan B. It looks like I've found it.

Signing Vizquel made sense. He was steady, solid, and would have provided the sox with some missing pieces--SB's, a switch hitter, a good bunter, good defense, and a #2 hitter. No longer spectacular, he was bound to go down from his 2004 yr. In essence, he was the safe choice.

Yet Guzman has an upside that very well could surpass Vizquel, at about the same price [$5 mill a yr probably, for 2, 3 yrs]. Yet, at age 26, with 6 yrs experience in the league, Guzman has the talent and tools to fill what Vizquel could have given the Sox, [even though Guzman isn't a #2 hitter].

I saw this article about Guzman and Rivas earlier this yr, that has helped me learn more about Guzman. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1768921

In it, Guzman's teammates [koskie, Mientky, and Jose Offerman--who sees Guzman exploding-- and Gardenhire praised him for his work ethic and talent. Yet injuries have hampered his play. The part where his swollen knee made him look like a "circus freak" told me something: Here was a gamer who didn't miss much time while playing the hardest position on the field. And he also sounded a lot like Uribe, who hadnít yet put all his tools together. Guzman did make the all-star team in 2001, at the early age of 23. No wonder people view him as a disappointment. He hasnít replicated what he did when he was younger. The key is unlocking his talent.

Guzman's potential, and the challenge, seems pretty clear--improving on his 2001 yr of .302/ .337/ .477, when he had 52 extra base hits [with 20 triples!], and 25 Sb's. With his defense and speed, if he can hit upwards of .280 for the sox, [he hit .274 last yr] while hitting in the 9th spot, he'd be a very solid pickup.

I see Guzman breaking out like Juan Uribe did [even though Guzman has more speed], and approaching his 2001 numbers more than his 2004 numbers. My reasons:
1] In ESPN's player profile, it said that Minn. changed his hitting approach after his breakout 2001 yr, making him swing down on balls to hit them on the turf. They messed w/ his swing, after he had success. Why? They wanted him to be a #2 hitter because they needed one. Heís not. He could be. But heís a #9 hitter. His splits the last two yrs: this yr- in 76 abís as #9-.303/.346/.408; as #2, in 193 abís: .244/.278/.326; in 2003: as #9, in more ABís, 186-.301/.367/.419. In the #2 hole, in 307 abís--.238/.268/.313.
2] Guzman has hit in the past, and has the tools to do it again. Heís had various injuries [shoulder, knee] that probably have hurt his numbers.
3] Minn. hasnít had a lot of success with Latino ball players. Theyíve had success with minor leaguers whoíve had good OBP and plate discipline at an early age. Yet not so much with Latinos, who traditionally develop patience at the plate as they get older and more pro experience. Look at Ortiz breaking out in his two yrs in Boston. Luis Rivas and Guzman have struggled. The Sox clubhouse and hitting approach seem to be a good fit for Guzman.
4] Guzmanís speed [baserunning, if not SBís] and defense are very above average.
5] He can do the little things, like switch hit [a big plus], bunt, as his 13 SH last yr and 14 in 2003 indicate, and make contact. His BB / K rate is improving to a best 30 BB/ 64 Kís.
6] If the sox want to get to the playoffs and World series, theyíll need some players having break out yrs. Guzman is a guy who likely could have a breakout yr, if he stays healthy and adjusts to his new team.
7] Heís affordable [money and contract length], and could be a great value. The sox could still fill other holes.


While I donít think Guzman is the pick up that would put the sox in the playoffs [I do believe trading for a leadoff man like Jason Kendall is the key to the sox season], IMO, Guzman would be a solid choice for SS now that Vizquel has signed w/ the Giants
You make about as good a case as can be made for Guzman, but I still think it falls short. There's nothing in there that makes me think he'll be any better than Uribe - and he'll be a lot more expensive. He does not add anything in any of the areas where the Sox most need to improve (i.e., pitching, OBP and defense). The money would be MUCH better spent elsewhere (i.e., on pitching and OBP).

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 11:07 AM
We're pretty quick to dismiss a major cog on a team that has kicked our butt consistently.:cool:
I think that's the best argument. That said, I'm squarely in the "maybe" camp, depending on the offer. I also think we shold see what Valdez can do in a bigger role; we can always move Uribe to short. Is Uribe really 24? Has anyone else noticed his improvement ovet the past three seasons? OPS: 2002-.627; 2003-.724; 2004-.833. As up-and-down as he can be, I think he needs to be a clear starter next year.

beck72
11-15-2004, 11:09 AM
You make about as good a case as can be made for Guzman, but I still think it falls short. There's nothing in there that makes me think he'll be any better than Uribe - and he'll be a lot more expensive. He does not add anything in any of the areas where the Sox most need to improve (i.e., pitching, OBP and defense). The money would be MUCH better spent elsewhere (i.e., on pitching and OBP).
I agree, getting a high OBP guy for leadoff is vital, and probably first on the Sox to do list. but if the same money [or less] intended for Vizquel can go to Guzman, those other holes can and should be filled. But Guzman would be a defensive [and an offensive, in avg and OBP] improvement over Jose V.

JRIG
11-15-2004, 11:15 AM
I agree, getting a high OBP guy for leadoff is vital, and probably first on the Sox to do list. but if the same money (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=16,40629057,whitesoxinteractive .com,1) [or less] intended for Vizquel can go to Guzman, those other holes can and should be filled. But Guzman would be a defensive [and an offensive, in avg and OBP] improvement over Jose V.
Valentin's career OBP is .321. Guzman's is .303.

Valentin has had a higher OBP than Guzman in 2 of the last three seasons.

How is this an upgrade in OBP?

Foulke You
11-15-2004, 11:31 AM
I'm surprised Ma-Gaga hasn't weighed in here. I would be interested in the opinion of WSI's resident Twinkee fan. I seem to remember him being down on Guzman.

Beck72 wrote a well thought out post. I admit, his post was convincing enough to me so that I have been swayed into the "maybe" column on Guzman. Perhaps, in HR friendly Comiskey Park (that still sounds weird to type Homer Friendly in front of Comiskey), Guzman's power numbers could go up getting away from the Roller Dome slap approach. My biggest fear is Guzman becomes Royce Clayton Part 2. The last time we signed a slick fielding, light hitting shortstop to replace Valentin, it met with disasterous results.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 11:33 AM
Valentin's career OBP is .321. Guzman's is .303.

Valentin has had a higher OBP than Guzman in 2 of the last three seasons.

How is this an upgrade in OBP?Forget about the position. Just because they lost out on Vizquel doesn't mean they should be pursuing another SS. The point of getting Vizquel was because people thought he could fill the Sox' need for a high OBP player. Guzman does not fill that need. Pass.

JRIG
11-15-2004, 11:44 AM
Forget about the position. Just because they lost out on Vizquel doesn't mean they should be pursuing another SS. The point of getting Vizquel was because people thought he could fill the Sox' need for a high OBP player. Guzman does not fill that need. Pass.
I think I'm officialy in the Placido Polanco camp. He looks to be a very capable #2 hitter with a good OBP, decent power and good defense. Only 29 years old too. He can also play a bit of third base if we want to slide Harris in at 2B. SS...goes to Juan Uribe I suppose. A far better option than Guzman.

Has anyone seen $$ figures on what Polanco is looking for? He made $3.95 million last year. I would think a package averaging about $6 million would get him, but with what Vizquel signed for, who knows.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 12:40 PM
It could be worse. Granted, we're in that perpetual "who's a low cost option" mode... but Guzman is a pretty good "low cost" option with a lot of upside.

Guzman would be a minor upgrade defensively over Jose, and a minor upgrade on the base paths. Offensively, it's probably a wash. Higher BA, lower power numbers. He'll be 27 next year, so there is a good amount of time for him to grow and improve.

If we can get him for something close to his '04 salary, ($3.725mm) I could live with it. The extra million or so could go towards addressing pitching.

This lineup:

CF Rowand
SS Guzman
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Thomas
RF Everett/Gload/Perez
2B Uribe
3B Crede
C Miller

Would probably put us in contention with the Twins, IF we upgrade SP and Bullpen. It's not overpowering, but it's a solid-BA, decent power, decent speed lineup.

beck72
11-15-2004, 01:57 PM
Valentin's career OBP is .321. Guzman's is .303.

Valentin has had a higher OBP than Guzman in 2 of the last three seasons.

How is this an upgrade in OBP?
Career OBP is misleading. Guzman played as a 21 and 22 yr old, and had sub .300 obp. Jose has been on a downward hitting trend [at least in avg, most yrs in OBP as well] since 2000. With all of Jose's K's and "quick 3 pitches and he's out" AB's, any live body would probably be an upgrade

Will Guzman ever be the allstar he was in 2001, when he had splits of .302/ .337/ .477? Probably yes. He's battled injuries and played hurt. With Minn. also messing w/ his swing [per ESPN profile] even after his allstar yr, a change would do him good.

beck72
11-15-2004, 02:00 PM
Forget about the position. Just because they lost out on Vizquel doesn't mean they should be pursuing another SS. The point of getting Vizquel was because people thought he could fill the Sox' need for a high OBP player. Guzman does not fill that need. Pass.
Ozzie's also expressed a need for more speed and better defense. But even if the Sox had gotten Omar. [who is a #2 hitter] the sox still would have had to address the leadoff spot.

Iwritecode
11-15-2004, 02:03 PM
I'm surprised Ma-Gaga hasn't weighed in here. I would be interested in the opinion of WSI's resident Twinkee fan. I seem to remember him being down on Guzman.

Actually...


ok. This is a good rant. Here's why you don't want C.Guzman. $5MM a year is too much money for a 26 year old SS that can't hit. He's been a good slap hitter, and this year he ate up all the grounders that were anywhere near him. He got injured at the all-star game in 2001. For whatever reason, when he dislocated his shoulder it took out his aggresiveness, and his "all-star" ability. It's been 3.5 years since the injury and we still don't see the C.Guzman of pre-all-star break 2001. Maybe it comes back next year, I wouldn't bet $5MM on it.

This isn't the first time that I've heard that the Twins asked Guzman to change his swing. It bugs me when teams do that. But I think he was trying to drive the ball, and with his power/speed the Twins felt like he should be a "chopper" type hitter, like Ichiro. The problem, is that Guzman isn't as good or as fast as Ichiro.

3.) David Ortiz couldn't stay healthy as a Twin. The Twins did try to mess with his swing, but Ortiz's health more than anything else forced the Twins to release him.

4.) Look at the GIDP for Guzman. For all his speed, he can't help hitting into a ton of DPs. Part of that was S.Stewart getting on in front of him when he was the #2 hitter, but he was terrible. His speed is overrated.

7.) $5MM a year would be a terrible signing. If you can get him for $2MM to $3MM, that would be a decent deal.

The Twins benched him for Nick Punto. That's really all you need to know about C.Guzman. The Twins benched him numerous times for being lackidasical in the field. The only reason C.Guzman got as many AB's this year is because his backups got hurt. You want no part of him, unless you can get him for cheap. Let someone else make the mistake of overpaying him.

:D:

Foulke You
11-15-2004, 02:13 PM
Actually...



:D:
DOH!!!:o:

This is what happens when you combine Monday mornings with not enough coffee.:D:

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 02:16 PM
I think I'm officialy in the Placido Polanco camp. He looks to be a very capable #2 hitter with a good OBP, decent power and good defense. Only 29 years old too. He can also play a bit of third base if we want to slide Harris in at 2B. SS...goes to Juan Uribe I suppose. A far better option than Guzman.

Has anyone seen $$ figures on what Polanco is looking for? He made $3.95 million last year. I would think a package averaging about $6 million would get him, but with what Vizquel signed for, who knows.Welcome aboard! I'll be driving this bandwagon.... at least until it crashes when the Cubs sign him....:smile: :o:

I haven't seen any figures but I think your guess of $6 million a year is probably close to what he will get. I suppose it might be out of the price range, but a Kendall-Polanco 1-2 punch would look nice at the top of the order.

1917
11-15-2004, 02:35 PM
Yes...OK I said it Yes....because if the option is Valentin then I would rather have Guzman. I'm not a Jose Fan, the guy hit 31 HRS and a .212 avg, that means he is good for one thing. Yes I know he is liked in the clubhouse and he can make me laugh too, but I would rather have Guzman then Jose. I know we will not go out and get Nomar/Renteria/or Cabera so I would take Guzman

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 02:37 PM
Yes...OK I said it Yes....because if the option is Valentin then I would rather have Guzman. I'm not a Jose Fan, the guy hit 31 HRS and a .212 avg, that means he is good for one thing. Yes I know he is liked in the clubhouse and he can make me laugh too, but I would rather have Guzman then Jose. I know we will not go out and get Nomar/Renteria/or Cabera so I would take GuzmanIsn't there another choice who is better than either one of them and doesn't cost us a thing? Oh wait, we've already got him, so he CAN'T be any good.

ma-gaga
11-15-2004, 02:58 PM
DOH!!!:o:

This is what happens when you combine Monday mornings with not enough coffee.:D:Actually, check out the punk whom started this thread. :cool:


First off, saying a post is a "rant" doesn't exactly start you off on a good note. Disrespect is the 1st way not to get your points taken seriously.

2nd, I take it your from Minny. So you should have some inside info. Yet the article has many good things said about him from his teammates.

3rd, Many of the same criticisms were said about Uribe in Col. if they are true, the sox dont need him. If not, then he could well need a fresh start Sorry. I'm a bit dry sometimes. Calling your post a "good rant" was supposed to be a compliment. I'm reading the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series right now, so I'm a little wry. (there's no color for "wry") I think your arguments were very compelling. I'm just trying to offer an opinion from someone who has watched him in over 400 games over the last 3 years.

C.Guzman is a solid defensive player, with no OBP. He gets along well with his teammates, but has been periodically benched due to on field performance issues. I'm just trying to say that if someone paid a 37 year old $12MM for 3 years, someone else is probably going to sink $4-$5MM into Guzman, and he's not worth it. Let someone else make that mistake.

In the brief time that the Twins gave playing time to Chris Gomez, Augie Ojeda, Denny Hocking and Nick Punto, C.Guzman really wasn't significantly better. He's younger, hence there is some potential to improve, but it's been 3.5 years since he put together a substantial string of dominant games together.

The only reason he got as many games as he did is because he's been amazingly healthy, and his "backups" have been amazingly injury prone. Some of the weirdest injuries and fluke plays have kept him in there. Seriously. Part of the reason for that is because he doesn't play as "hard" as some other players. That's both good and bad. He won't make any diving stops behind second base, but he'll give you 140 games of 0.270/0.310/0.360. Can you live with that?

Maybe a change of scenery is what he needs. But there's simply too much risk unless you have a $90MM+ payroll. I wouldn't want him taking up more than 4-5% of the teams' budget. There would be so much more effective use of the money if you upgraded the pitching, or get some competetion in for Crede...

:gulp:

nitetrain8601
11-15-2004, 03:56 PM
Just like drugs, just say NO!...though on this move I believe KW and OG will be a couple of those kids who say yes.

sendimjoey
11-15-2004, 04:18 PM
No.

Etownsox13
11-15-2004, 05:45 PM
Maybe, if he can be had for the right price, and if he gets into better shape

California Sox
11-15-2004, 05:54 PM
3.) David Ortiz couldn't stay healthy as a Twin. The Twins did try to mess with his swing, but Ortiz's health more than anything else forced the Twins to release him.

That's not what Ortiz says. He says that Tom Kelly had a strong dislike for young players, especially Ortiz and Todd Walker. He's pretty happy it worked out the way it did, but believes that Kelly was instrumental in showing him the door.

Nick@Nite
11-15-2004, 06:02 PM
no

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 06:05 PM
FWIW, I heard a report from Levine earlier that the Sox shortstop interests have turned to.....I can't say it.....C....Chrissss....Christian Guzman and ......P...P....Poookkey Reese. :whiner: :whiner: It hurt just to type that. I can't imagine seeing either of these bums playing on a regular basis.

Can't we play without a shortstop? I'd rather see an empty hole out there rather than either of these pieces of crap. I don't really consider myself a KW supporter or basher. But if KW forces this team to rely on either Christian Guzman or Pokey Reese as the everyday shortstop, I'll start to put one foot onto the "Fire KW" bandwagon.

A. Cavatica
11-15-2004, 08:07 PM
No. Uribe's better & cheaper.

It's sad when Guzman's strongest supporters say "he's a #9 hitter" as if that somehow justifies signing him. I've got news for you guys: we have several #9 hitters on the team already. It ain't a good thing.

JRIG
11-16-2004, 05:46 AM
FWIW, I heard a report from Levine earlier that the Sox shortstop interests have turned to.....I can't say it.....C....Chrissss....Christian Guzman and ......P...P....Poookkey Reese. :whiner: :whiner: It hurt just to type that. I can't imagine seeing either of these bums playing on a regular basis.

Can't we play without a shortstop? I'd rather see an empty hole out there rather than either of these pieces of crap. I don't really consider myself a KW supporter or basher. But if KW forces this team to rely on either Christian Guzman or Pokey Reese as the everyday shortstop, I'll start to put one foot onto the "Fire KW" bandwagon.Reese OBP:
.284, .322, .330, .319, .284, .330, .271, .271

Guzman OBP:
.267, .299, .337, .292, .311, .309

Well, at least we've identified our biggest need on this team.

Seriously, if either of these guys is in the lineup every day along with Crede and one of our wonderful catchers...we're in deep ****.

Everyone realizes we've also lost Ordonez, right? Another huge OBP cog in our lineup.

JRIG
11-16-2004, 06:21 AM
Dave Van Dyck loses some credibility here:


The White Sox could go after Minnesota free agent Cristian Guzman but more likely will settle for someone like Placido Polanco, who most teams see as a backup shortstop. Last season he hit a career-high 17 home runs to go with 55 RBIs for Philadelphia, playing 109 games at second base, 13 at third and none at shortstop.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041115sox,1,4509617.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I would kill to "settle" for Polanco at 2B and Uribe at SS.

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 06:28 AM
Dave Van Dyck loses some credibility here:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041115sox,1,4509617.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I would kill to "settle" for Polanco at 2B and Uribe at SS.Weird. Placido Polanco put up some great numbers last year. He plays great defense and doesn't strike out much.

Placido Polanco (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=135784)
.298 AVG
.345 OBP
17 HR
55 RBI
7 SB

He would be a great signing. Better than Vizquel and Guzman. :?: Just throw Polanco at 2B and put Uribe at SS.

Jjav829
11-16-2004, 08:01 AM
Dave Van Dyck loses some credibility here:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-041115sox,1,4509617.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I would kill to "settle" for Polanco at 2B and Uribe at SS.Oops. I just posted that in another thread. My feelings are the same, though. I hope KW just "settles" for Polanco rather than chasing after one of those all-stars, Christian Guzman or Pokey Reese.

beck72
11-16-2004, 08:25 AM
Actually, check out the punk whom started this thread. :cool:


Sorry. I'm a bit dry sometimes. Calling your post a "good rant" was supposed to be a compliment. I'm reading the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series right now, so I'm a little wry. (there's no color for "wry") I think your arguments were very compelling. I'm just trying to offer an opinion from someone who has watched him in over 400 games over the last 3 years.

C.Guzman is a solid defensive player, with no OBP. He gets along well with his teammates, but has been periodically benched due to on field performance issues. I'm just trying to say that if someone paid a 37 year old $12MM for 3 years, someone else is probably going to sink $4-$5MM into Guzman, and he's not worth it. Let someone else make that mistake.

In the brief time that the Twins gave playing time to Chris Gomez, Augie Ojeda, Denny Hocking and Nick Punto, C.Guzman really wasn't significantly better. He's younger, hence there is some potential to improve, but it's been 3.5 years since he put together a substantial string of dominant games together.

The only reason he got as many games as he did is because he's been amazingly healthy, and his "backups" have been amazingly injury prone. Some of the weirdest injuries and fluke plays have kept him in there. Seriously. Part of the reason for that is because he doesn't play as "hard" as some other players. That's both good and bad. He won't make any diving stops behind second base, but he'll give you 140 games of 0.270/0.310/0.360. Can you live with that?

Maybe a change of scenery is what he needs. But there's simply too much risk unless you have a $90MM+ payroll. I wouldn't want him taking up more than 4-5% of the teams' budget. There would be so much more effective use of the money if you upgraded the pitching, or get some competetion in for Crede...

:gulp:
My thinking was it would be even riskier to put an IF of Harris, Uribe and Crede on the field, esp with the questions surrounding them. Uribe less so, but he's still a yr away from a .250 avg, and went through that horribel spell late in the yr. After a two yr deal for Guzman [even at the numbers you said, taking into account his defense and speed, ability to handle the bat, bunt, not k etc] the IF situation would be sorted for the Sox. We'd know if Crede, Harris and /or Uribe should be part of the future.

Yet getting someone for 3b or 2b cuts off Crede and Harris at the knees, before they really have proven themselves. Getting Guzman for $5 mill a yr would be expensive. Yet saying goodbye to Crede or Harris could also turn out to be even more expensive and costly to the Sox--not getting a young guy locked in cheaply for a few yrs and having to get a washed up Tony Batista or a Grudz to fill their spots

Flight #24
11-16-2004, 09:10 AM
I also like KW's comments about how if he can't go top of the line (Vizquel - which apparently means he's saying "top of the affordable line"), then rather than go middle of the road he might just stick with what he's got. Polanco might be nice with the versatility, overall solid play, and potential for 20+HR in Coors East, but I don't know that I'd go 6mil/yr for him. I might rather just play Harris/Uribe and either grab a veteran like Castilla to push Crede @ 3B (or platoon with Gload at 1B in the event of a Koney trade), and/or put the $$$ towards pitching.

mjharrison72
11-16-2004, 09:16 AM
Weird. Placido Polanco put up some great numbers last year. He plays great defense and doesn't strike out much.

Placido Polanco (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=135784)
.298 AVG
.345 OBP
17 HR
55 RBI
7 SB

He would be a great signing. Better than Vizquel and Guzman. :?: Just throw Polanco at 2B and put Uribe at SS.
This is the best freaking idea I've hears in the last several days. Better than the Womack idea. Best part is, too, if they decide to trade Crede, Polanco can move to 3B as well. Oh, and it's better than the Soriano idea, too.

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 09:56 AM
Weird. Placido Polanco put up some great numbers last year. He plays great defense and doesn't strike out much.

Placido Polanco (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=135784)
.298 AVG
.345 OBP
17 HR
55 RBI
7 SB

He would be a great signing. Better than Vizquel and Guzman. :?: Just throw Polanco at 2B and put Uribe at SS.If you're willing to pay $5-6M for this guy to lead off, why wouldn't you want this guy for a lot less and improve your pitching staff with the difference?

Willie Harris
.343 OBP
19 SB

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 10:28 AM
If you're willing to pay $5-6M for this guy to lead off, why wouldn't you want this guy for a lot less and improve your pitching staff with the difference?

Willie Harris
.343 OBP
19 SBBecause Polanco is a much better hitter and he still has a bit of power. Willie strikes out too much and can't bunt. Also, Polano can play 2B, 3B, and a little SS. Willie has yet to prove that he is anything better than a lefty bat / pinch runner off the bench. And he isn't even a good base-stealer with all his speed.

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 11:00 AM
Because Polanco is a much better hitter and he still has a bit of power. Willie strikes out too much and can't bunt. Also, Polano can play 2B, 3B, and a little SS. Willie has yet to prove that he is anything better than a lefty bat / pinch runner off the bench. And he isn't even a good base-stealer with all his speed.If you're looking for a leadoff hitter, forget BA and focus on OBP. Their OBP are the same. If Willie, with 19 SB "isn't even a good base-stealer", what does that say about Polanco with 7 SB? And Harris is solid defensively, so Polanco is NOT an upgrade there. He can play 3B, but he's not a good SS.

JRIG
11-16-2004, 11:06 AM
If you're looking for a leadoff hitter, forget BA and focus on OBP. Their OBP are the same. If Willie, with 19 SB "isn't even a good base-stealer", what does that say about Polanco with 7 SB? And Harris is solid defensively, so Polanco is NOT an upgrade there. He can play 3B, but he's not a good SS.
Polanco has a track record.

Harris had OBPs of .270 and .259 before last year. Plus Harris in 2004 really had only two good months -- May and October. Other than that he put up monthy splits of:

.254/.299/.324
.182/.316/.197
.188/.333/.229
.288/.347/.379 (an OK month)
.218/.291/.295

Those months are far more in lin with his career numbers.

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 11:12 AM
Polanco has a track record.

Harris had OBPs of .270 and .259 before last year. Plus Harris in 2004 really had only two good months -- May and October. Other than that he put up monthy splits of:

.254/.299/.324
.182/.316/.197
.188/.333/.229
.288/.347/.379 (an OK month)
.218/.291/.295

Those months are far more in lin with his career numbers.Yep, how can you just assume that Willie's numbers will stay the same or even get better next season?

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 11:16 AM
Polanco has a track record.

Harris had OBPs of .270 and .259 before last year. Plus Harris in 2004 really had only two good months -- May and October. Other than that he put up monthy splits of:

.254/.299/.324
.182/.316/.197
.188/.333/.229
.288/.347/.379 (an OK month)
.218/.291/.295

Those months are far more in lin with his career numbers.I'm not happy with Harris' consistency, either. But it's not unexpected from a young player. I would not want to count on him to lead off next year. But at the same time, if you want to get a leadoff hitter, it makes a lot more sense to me to get one at another position where there's already a hole (OF or C). Just replacing Harris with Polanco is paying a lot for a modest improvement (just the difference between Polanco and Harris). Getting someone like Kendall gets you the leadoff hitter you want and still keeps Harris in the lineup. The net gain is now the difference between Kendall and Davis - much bigger. Bat Harris 9th and let him develop. Sit him on the bench and he'll never develop.

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 11:20 AM
I'm not happy with Harris' consistency, either. But it's not unexpected from a young player. I would not want to count on him to lead off next year. But at the same time, if you want to get a leadoff hitter, it makes a lot more sense to me to get one at another position where there's already a hole (OF or C). Just replacing Harris with Polanco is paying a lot for a modest improvement (just the difference between Polanco and Harris). Getting someone like Kendall gets you the leadoff hitter you want and still keeps Harris in the lineup. The net gain is now the difference between Kendall and Davis - much bigger. Bat Harris 9th and let him develop. Sit him on the bench and he'll never develop.Of course that would be a better move but do you honestly see us getting Kendall? He makes a boatload of money and I heard that the Pirates already turned down our offer of Konerko and Garland for Kendall. We couldn't afford to give up any more players than that. Move on to the next pipe-dream or be reasonable and accept a Polanco signing as being a positive move.

By the way, if we did trade Konerko and Garland for Kendall, that would just open up two more holes at other positions. We would need another starting pitcher and we would be left with Ross Gload as our starting first baseman. They aren't going to give us Kendall for nothing, even if he has a big contract.

ma-gaga
11-16-2004, 11:31 AM
Yeah, it would be terrible if someone had to "settle" with Polanco. That would be an unmitigated steal. I can't imagine that any of the 'stat oriented' teams would let him get away. A team like Boston or Toronto could use him. Unless there's something else goofy going on with the guy. I was pining for a player like R.Furcal, until I was told he has 2 DUI's on his record... So, take it for what it's worth.

C.Guzman would be a fine player if he was your worst hitter (a #9), but I don't know if the W.Sox have the hitting depth from 1-8 to carry him. If Crede can't hit before August, it won't matter who this team signs as a SS.

1 CF - A.Rowand - R
2 LF - C.Lee - R
3 DH - F.Thomas - R
4 1B - P.Konerko - R
5 RF - C.Everett - S
6 3B - Crede - R
7 C - Davis/Burke - S/R
8 2B - Uribe/Harris - R/L
9 SS - Guzman - S

That's not too bad. A little too Right Handed, but doable. If you want to get "cute" you could put Harris up at #2 and shift everyone down a notch, that seperates the hitting holes a bit and get's you a lefty breaking up the lineup. However, I'm not sure which is better in terms of optimal strategy. But the problem with this is this:

You don't sign a guy to a $5MM a year contract to be your #9 hitter.

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 12:01 PM
Yeah, it would be terrible if someone had to "settle" with Polanco. That would be an unmitigated steal. I can't imagine that any of the 'stat oriented' teams would let him get away. A team like Boston or Toronto could use him. Unless there's something else goofy going on with the guy. I was pining for a player like R.Furcal, until I was told he has 2 DUI's on his record... So, take it for what it's worth.

C.Guzman would be a fine player if he was your worst hitter (a #9), but I don't know if the W.Sox have the hitting depth from 1-8 to carry him. If Crede can't hit before August, it won't matter who this team signs as a SS.

1 CF - A.Rowand - R
2 LF - C.Lee - R
3 DH - F.Thomas - R
4 1B - P.Konerko - R
5 RF - C.Everett - S
6 3B - Crede - R
7 C - Davis/Burke - S/R
8 2B - Uribe/Harris - R/L
9 SS - Guzman - S

That's not too bad. A little too Right Handed, but doable. If you want to get "cute" you could put Harris up at #2 and shift everyone down a notch, that seperates the hitting holes a bit and get's you a lefty breaking up the lineup. However, I'm not sure which is better in terms of optimal strategy. But the problem with this is this:

You don't sign a guy to a $5MM a year contract to be your #9 hitter.I think the rule is...

You don't sign a guy like Christian Guzman (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150217&statType=1) to a $5MM a year contract to be your #9 hitter.

The guy flat out sucks. Do we really need a SS with a career .266 AVG and a career .303 OBP? We may as well resign Jose Valentin then. At least he hits homers.

Polanco at 2B and Uribe at SS is a much better option.

Ol' No. 2
11-16-2004, 12:45 PM
Of course that would be a better move but do you honestly see us getting Kendall? He makes a boatload of money and I heard that the Pirates already turned down our offer of Konerko and Garland for Kendall. We couldn't afford to give up any more players than that. Move on to the next pipe-dream or be reasonable and accept a Polanco signing as being a positive move.

By the way, if we did trade Konerko and Garland for Kendall, that would just open up two more holes at other positions. We would need another starting pitcher and we would be left with Ross Gload as our starting first baseman. They aren't going to give us Kendall for nothing, even if he has a big contract.Kendall was mainly an example. The point was that by replacing Harris with Polanco, the net gain is just the difference between the two. If you look at the numbers, the difference isn't exactly overwhelming, you're paying $5-6M to get it, and you're giving up a lot of speed. You're much better off gettting your leadoff hitter from another problem position. Harris is NOT the biggest hole this team has, and by putting him on the bench, you just forgo any improvement you're going to get.

I can't believe the Pirates would turn down Konerko and Garland for a guy they're looking to get rid of. And I wouldn't offer that much, either. Maybe Garland and Davis and a prospect.

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 12:50 PM
I can't believe the Pirates would turn down Konerko and Garland for a guy they're looking to get rid of. And I wouldn't offer that much, either. Maybe Garland and Davis and a prospect.That was the rumor I heard and it sort of makes sense that they wouldn't accept it. Konerko would make $9 million next season from the Pirates if they accepted the trade and they would only have him for 1 year. The Pirates want to cut payroll by trading Kendall. They know they aren't going to compete next season anyways so why would they want to add Konerko for only 1 year at $9 million? The only guy they would be adding to help their team improve for the future is Jon Garland. Other than prospects, Garland and Crede would be the only attractive players we have that the Pirates would want.

nodiggity59
11-16-2004, 12:53 PM
I can't believe the Pirates would turn down Konerko and Garland for a guy they're looking to get rid of. And I wouldn't offer that much, either. Maybe Garland and Davis and a prospect.
Then you wouldn't get him w/out paying 8,9,11 mil for him the next 3 years, which is to say you wouldn't get him b/c you're the White Sox.

Man Soo Lee
11-16-2004, 01:35 PM
Guzman's agent told the Minneapolis Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/5087786.html) that there are two offers on the table for Guzman and he could be signed in the next few days.

According to WSCR, the Sox have not made an offer.

Jabroni
11-16-2004, 01:44 PM
Guzman's agent told the Minneapolis Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/5087786.html) that there are two offers on the table for Guzman and he could be signed in the next few days.

According to WSCR, the Sox have not made an offer.YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :supernana: