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JKryl
11-14-2004, 10:59 PM
OK guys, the Randy talk is nice, but futile, but how about a real need that must be addressed before the season starts. We can strugle along again without Randy, but Sandy is gone, and who is going to take his place? As far as I know, there is no one in the minors who can take his place. That leaves us two choices: first, KW can bite the bullet, (but save a lot of money) and just pull up someone from the minors, and hope for the best. Second, he can try to sign someone in the off season. According to MLB.com, this is what they say about the current crop: (You can view the whole article here_http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041107&content_id=911345&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp)


HEAD OF THE CLASS

Jason Varitek (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=123660)
<LI>2004 stats: .296-18-73, two errors in 931 chances.
<LI>Comment: For the second consecutive offseason, the reigning World Series champs' catcher is a free agent. Varitek's market value is hard to assess: he is worth far more to the Red Sox than he would be to any other team. Yet field generals who switch-hit are valuable commodities, and Boston could find itself in a skewed bidding situation. Mike Matheny (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=118414)


<LI>2004 stats: .247-5-50, threw out 30 percent of runners.
<LI>Comment: You always know what you will get from the other catcher in the 2004 World Series: a .250 average, a few bombs, several clutch hits and stellar defense. Recently walked off with his second straight Gold Glove. At 34, should be able to maintain his norm for a couple more seasons. Gregg Zaun (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=124748)


<LI>2004 stats: .269-6-36
<LI>Comment: At 34, set career highs across the board, prompting a lot of people to see the well-traveled veteran in a new light. And he has been around: Toronto was his fifth team in as many years, and his eighth across a 10-year career. Yes, the fact he ranks this high says a lot about the bullish market. Doug Mirabelli (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=119182)


<LI>2004 stats: .281-9-32 in only 160 at-bats.
<LI>Comment: As a nod to all the No. 2-type catchers on the list, likely the most ideal of the bunch. His extra-base bat would be welcome on any bench, and his agility in handling Tim Wakefield's knuckleballs says a lot about his catching prowess. His poor throwing record had more to do with those flutter balls than with his arm.

TOP BARGAIN Mike Redmond (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=133226)


<LI>2004 stats: .256-2-25
<LI>Comment: For seven years, has been Florida's fall-back. The Marlins have been reluctant to give him the No. 1 job, first turning to Ivan Rodriguez, then even Ramon Castro as the first option. When Castro flubbed his opportunity last season, Redmond stepped in admirably. At 33, could be a late bloomer if someone gives him a shot.

ALSO AVAILABLE Sandy Alomar, Jr. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=110184)
Paul Bako (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=132720)
Gary Bennett (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=110870)
Henry Blanco (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=111072)
Pat Borders (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=111232)
Ramon Castro (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=135783)
Mike DiFelice (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=113358)
Einar Diaz (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=113330)
Andy Dominique (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=150103)
Bobby Estalella (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=113911)
John Flaherty (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=114208)
Brook Fordyce (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=114309)
Todd Greene (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=115103)
Tim Laker (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=117420)
Robert Machado (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=118079)
Brent Mayne (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=118490)
Greg Myers (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=119616)
Keith Osik (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=120092)
Todd Pratt (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=120747)
Kelly Stinnett (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=122803)
Dan Wilson (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=124383)
<LI>
<LI>
<LI>I'd go for Varitek, but I'm not management. Taking into consideration the constraints of money and need, what would you do?

JKryl
11-14-2004, 11:09 PM
With credit to my buddy, Parrothead, here's what we have to look forward to in the Sox minor leagues:

What is wrong with Jamie burke? Pickins' are slim.....

G. Molina of the Winston-Salem Warthogs hitting .286 in 25 games

Carlos Lee of the Kannapolis Intimidators hitting .315 in 30 games

Carlos Maldonado of the Birmingham Barons hitting .265 in 108 games

Ryan Hankins of the Charlotte Knights hitting .296 in 89 games

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 11:14 PM
Two words: Jason Kendall.

Get it done, Kenny!

NUCatsFan
11-15-2004, 12:39 AM
Carlos Lee of the Kannapolis Intimidators hitting .315 in 30 games
<Insert your own joke here>

JRIG
11-15-2004, 04:06 AM
OK guys, the Randy talk is nice, but futile, but how about a real need that must be addressed before the season starts. We can strugle along again without Randy, but Sandy is gone, and who is going to take his place?
A department-store mannequin?

Sandy's been a bench coach for the past two years. Give him that job if he wants to stay around.

Parrothead
11-15-2004, 06:36 AM
Two words: Jason Kendall.

Get it done, Kenny!Kendall is not available according to the list. Maybe KW could trade for him but then he would over pay. Probably Konerko and Lee.

What about getting Olivo and Jermery Reed? KW has traded for Everret and Alomar twice, why not them?

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 07:59 AM
Kendall is not available according to the list. Maybe KW could trade for him but then he would over pay. Probably Konerko and Lee.

What about getting Olivo and Jermery Reed? KW has traded for Everret and Alomar twice, why not them?That list looks to be only free agent catchers. Jason Kendall is available, and has been for a few years. It wouldn't cost Konerko and Lee for Kendall. Garland and a middle level prospect could probably get Kendall and 1/3 of his salary. It's just a matter of Kenny and Littlefield finding the right combination of players and salary.

JKryl
11-15-2004, 08:25 AM
Currently Kendall is making $8.571 million a year with the Pirates. Do you really think JR would put that much money out for a catcher?

History says no.

mdep524
11-15-2004, 11:02 AM
Gotta be Kendall. He fits several of the Sox' needs, and if the Pirates eat a chunk of his salary he is affordable. Otherwise, Mike Matheny.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 11:06 AM
Estimates I have seen on Varitek are 4/40. That's a bit steep given our needs and our budget.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 12:30 PM
Most of the options floated for a leadoff hitter are a SS or 2B. Vizquel, Polanco, etc. etc. I'm not that excited about any of them. They're all basically .340 OBP players. If you want a high-OBP guy, get one that actually has a high OBP. It wouldn't surprise me if the Pirates will pay down Kendall's contract to the $6-7M range. For the extra money over what they were offering Vizquel, you get something that's actually better than what you've already got.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 12:34 PM
Most of the options floated for a leadoff hitter are a SS or 2B. Vizquel, Polanco, etc. etc. I'm not that excited about any of them. They're all basically .340 OBP players. If you want a high-OBP guy, get one that actually has a high OBP. It wouldn't surprise me if the Pirates will pay down Kendall's contract to the $6-7M range. For the extra money over what they were offering Vizquel, you get something that's actually better than what you've already got.
You don't think Vizquel or Polanco are better than Harris?

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 12:42 PM
You don't think Vizquel or Polanco are better than Harris?If you're looking for a leadoff hitter, no. Both have career OBP of about .340. Harris had a .343 OBP last year. And he has a lot more speed. What's so much better? If they wanted a guy as insurance against one of the young players not coming through, that's a different story, but I wouldn't pay more than $2-3M for an insurance player.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 12:45 PM
If you're looking for a leadoff hitter, no. Both have career OBP of about .340. Harris had a .343 OBP last year. And he has a lot more speed. What's so much better? If they wanted a guy as insurance against one of the young players not coming through, that's a different story, but I wouldn't pay more than $2-3M for an insurance player.Then that explains this thread, and your dislike for Vizquel, a lot. You think Willie Harris is the answer. I get it. You are a FOWW (Friend of Wee Willy). :D: If Harris is the answer - then you are right - we don't need a SS. I just have no faith that Harris is an everyday player. Harris should be the backup that you talk about paying cheap for. A guy like Vizquel (or Polanco at 2B) would be better as the starter.

If Harris can play every day - great...

Lip Man 1
11-15-2004, 12:49 PM
I must astonishingly agree with Jabrch. Harris AT BEST is a bench player with some speed. On a good team he's back in triple A where he belongs.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 12:59 PM
Then that explains this thread, and your dislike for Vizquel, a lot. You think Willie Harris is the answer. I get it. You are a FOWW (Friend of Wee Willy). :D: If Harris is the answer - then you are right - we don't need a SS. I just have no faith that Harris is an everyday player.As a matter of fact, I do like Willie a lot. He's young and inconsistent (the two generally go together) and he definately still has some rough edges, but I like what I see. He improved a lot over 2003 and I think he's going to continue to improve. Based on Vizquel's career numbers, I certainly have no faith that he is going to be any better, and it's likely he's going to be not as good. I guess we'll see. This is one we're all going to have to revisit in September to see who was right.

nitetrain8601
11-15-2004, 03:51 PM
If you're looking for a leadoff hitter, no. Both have career OBP of about .340. Harris had a .343 OBP last year. And he has a lot more speed. What's so much better? If they wanted a guy as insurance against one of the young players not coming through, that's a different story, but I wouldn't pay more than $2-3M for an insurance player.
I agree completely. Go all the way if your looking for a high OBP guy.

Daver
11-15-2004, 04:54 PM
With credit to my buddy, Parrothead, here's what we have to look forward to in the Sox minor leagues:

What is wrong with Jamie burke? Pickins' are slim.....

G. Molina of the Winston-Salem Warthogs hitting .286 in 25 games

Carlos Lee of the Kannapolis Intimidators hitting .315 in 30 games

Carlos Maldonado of the Birmingham Barons hitting .265 in 108 games

Ryan Hankins of the Charlotte Knights hitting .296 in 89 games
What does batting average have to do with whom is the best catcher?

LAWSfan
11-15-2004, 05:10 PM
Two words: Jason Kendall.

Get it done, Kenny!
Kendall is the most overrated catcher around. He doesn't hit for any power. And while he gets on base a lot, he can steal a base for you. He's getting older and the wear and tear of catching is catching up to him.

Add to that the fact that his salary is high and prevented two teams from trading for him, why would the White Sox get this guy?

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 05:39 PM
Kendall is the most overrated catcher around. He doesn't hit for any power. And while he gets on base a lot, he can steal a base for you. He's getting older and the wear and tear of catching is catching up to him.

Add to that the fact that his salary is high and prevented two teams from trading for him, why would the White Sox get this guy?You're right. HR's are the single most important thing to judge a catcher on. :rolleyes:

Using your logic, the following catchers are better hitting catchers than Jason Kendall:

Rod Barajas
Henry Blanco
Javier Valentin
Ben Davis
Charles Johnson
Adam Melhuse
Miguel Ojeda
John Flaherty
Brad Ausmus

Need I go on?

Who cares how many HR's he hits? Besides the fact that playing in the Cell would add about about 5 or so HR's to his total, he does something that few players on this team do, he gets on base. He's had two consecutive .399 OBP seasons. Can you imagine how many more runs we'd score with a leadoff hitter who gets on base at a .399 clip hitting ahead of Frank, Rowand, and Lee/Konerko? If you're looking for a leadoff hitter that is a big time power threat, then maybe we should keep Konerko and stick him in the leadoff spot. No, Kendall doesn't have the same speed he had before he messed up his ankle. But he can still go 1st to 3rd easily. He's still an extremely tough hitter to strike out. While he doesn't have the power of Mike Piazza, he puts up a good amount of doubles. If Kenny gets Kendall (and it will include Pittsburgh eating a good amount of his salary), it will be a great move for this team.

Daver
11-15-2004, 05:44 PM
If Kenny gets Kendall (and it will include Pittsburgh eating a good amount of his salary), it will be a great move for this team. With as bad as the Sox pitchers are at keeping runners at first, and with Contreas tossing a good percentage of 59 footers, watching Kendall behind the plate would be almost comical.

Catcher is a defensive position.

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 05:48 PM
Catcher is a defensive position.True, but that wasn't his argument. If he had said that we shouldn't be worrying about what offense we get from our catcher, I can accept that. But he said that Kendall is overrated because he doesn't hit for power.

Daver
11-15-2004, 05:57 PM
True, but that wasn't his argument. If he had said that we shouldn't be worrying about what offense we get from our catcher, I can accept that. But he said that Kendall is overrated because he doesn't hit for power.
Then I'll say it.

If you are relying on offense from the 9 hole in the lineup, you have significant other problems.

johnny_mostil
11-15-2004, 06:01 PM
With as bad as the Sox pitchers are at keeping runners at first, and with Contreas tossing a good percentage of 59 footers, watching Kendall behind the plate would be almost comical.

Catcher is a defensive position.
Which one of his 2 passed balls last season convinced you he couldn't block the ball in the dirt? He threw out 36% of runners trying to steal. Comical is a ridiculous exaggeration.

His on-base percentage was .399 both in 2003 and 2004. That would make him a really, really nice #2 hitter for a good team. The guy gets hit by pitches once a week. He can sort of run.

Parrothead
11-15-2004, 06:28 PM
What does batting average have to do with whom is the best catcher?
You would like someone who could hit over .220 since we are going to need some offense. Why give up another automatic out?

I admit I have not seen these guys play and only read thier stats. I was only giving the offensive categories due to that is the easiest to measure and that the web sites really don't focus on defense.

hitlesswonder
11-15-2004, 06:38 PM
Which one of his 2 passed balls last season convinced you he couldn't block the ball in the dirt? He threw out 36% of runners trying to steal. Comical is a ridiculous exaggeration.

His on-base percentage was .399 both in 2003 and 2004. That would make him a really, really nice #2 hitter for a good team. The guy gets hit by pitches once a week. He can sort of run.
I think Daver knows more about catching than anyone else on the board. If he says that Kendall is a lousy defensive catcher, then he's lousy. I'll take what someone I trust tells me he saw over a bunch of numbers anyday.

Having said that, I'd still love the Sox to get him, because I can't remember when someone other than Thomas posted an OBP like that. Too bad he'll only go to the west coast.

johnny_mostil
11-15-2004, 06:42 PM
I'll take what someone I trust tells me he saw over a bunch of numbers anyday.
That sounds like what Kenny Williams said when the Sox traded for Todd Ritchie...

Daver
11-15-2004, 06:54 PM
You would like someone who could hit over .220 since we are going to need some offense. Why give up another automatic out?

I admit I have not seen these guys play and only read thier stats. I was only giving the offensive categories due to that is the easiest to measure and that the web sites really don't focus on defense.
Carlos Lee is a converted outfielder, that still plays in the outfield, and Ryan Hankins is a converted third baseman that also plays third base occasionaly, what percentage of their BA was earned while behind the plate?

You are using flawed logic to even attempt to rate positional players doing it that way.

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 07:25 PM
Then I'll say it.

If you are relying on offense from the 9 hole in the lineup, you have significant other problems.Well it would certainly help to get some offense out of that spot. Kendall would leadoff, and give this team one hell of a leadoff man. It would also mean this would be better equipped to withstand a slow start from another position.

Personally, I don't feel Kendall's defense is all that bad. He's not Mike Piazza bad, and he's not Mike Matheny good. He's had some struggles in previous years, but he committed himself to working more on his defense, and I think it paid off last season. He looked better last season than he has in previous years.

Parrothead
11-16-2004, 12:27 AM
Carlos Lee is a converted outfielder, that still plays in the outfield, and Ryan Hankins is a converted third baseman that also plays third base occasionaly, what percentage of their BA was earned while behind the plate?

You are using flawed logic to even attempt to rate positional players doing it that way.
I have no idea....Like I said the web sites don't go into detail. I was just giving BA's, that is all. And as previously stated, I don't want another automatic out.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 12:40 AM
You're right. HR's are the single most important thing to judge a catcher on. :rolleyes:

Using your logic, the following catchers are better hitting catchers than Jason Kendall:

Rod Barajas
Henry Blanco
Javier Valentin
Ben Davis
Charles Johnson
Adam Melhuse
Miguel Ojeda
John Flaherty
Brad Ausmus

Need I go on?

Who cares how many HR's he hits? Besides the fact that playing in the Cell would add about about 5 or so HR's to his total, he does something that few players on this team do, he gets on base. He's had two consecutive .399 OBP seasons. Can you imagine how many more runs we'd score with a leadoff hitter who gets on base at a .399 clip hitting ahead of Frank, Rowand, and Lee/Konerko? If you're looking for a leadoff hitter that is a big time power threat, then maybe we should keep Konerko and stick him in the leadoff spot. No, Kendall doesn't have the same speed he had before he messed up his ankle. But he can still go 1st to 3rd easily. He's still an extremely tough hitter to strike out. While he doesn't have the power of Mike Piazza, he puts up a good amount of doubles. If Kenny gets Kendall (and it will include Pittsburgh eating a good amount of his salary), it will be a great move for this team.
Don't assume because you know what assumes makes me and especially you. Kendall makes about $9 mill a year. He's basically a singles hitter 390 slg. What I don't like is he's going to be 31 and has played more than 1200 games as a catcher. He's on the down side of his career. Since you're a stat guy look at the stats of catchers after they have caught 1200 games. Their stats go down hill IF they stay at catcher. And I don't want to hear about just one guy like Fisk.

For 9 mill, Kendall isn't a good valve. Even if the Pirates pay some of his salary he's still not a good valve.

OurBitchinMinny
11-16-2004, 12:54 AM
Currently Kendall is making $8.571 million a year with the Pirates. Do you really think JR would put that much money out for a catcher?

History says no.

I have a question that i know that pretty much no one will have an answer for. Why is JR so freaking cheap? Ive heard in the past that he would trade all 6 NBA titles for 1 WS ring. Then spend the money. Boston, yeah they finally broke their "curse" and it only took 130+ million to do it. Im not talking about going that high, but having a payroll on par with the others in the division is ridiculous. Win and you will fill the stadium every night for years to come. There is no reason baseball has to be second class on the southside. Spend money to make money. I know its his team and he can do whatever the hell he wants, but if he truly wants to win so badly he is gonna have to spend. Our minor leagues at least at the AA and AAA hasnt produced much of anything, so you have to make a splash on the market. Well I vented. Im just sick and am really worried that the cubs are gonna make us look foolish this offseason. I will be sick to my stomach if magglio ordonez is in RF for them next year. Or renteria at SS and percival out of the pen.

Mohoney
11-16-2004, 12:57 AM
Which one of his 2 passed balls last season convinced you he couldn't block the ball in the dirt?
Very good point. He's not that bad defensively, he's pretty average.

We were so far near the bottom in OBP that I think the guy would be a blessing, if he didn't cost so much. We need to spend about 75% of any payroll increase on pitching, where we were next to last in ERA and dead last in HR allowed, before we can add a contract like that.

We really need to set our pitching staff in stone before we figure out how to add OBP. If Contreras is our #3, Garland is our #4, Cotts is counted on in late innings instead of just filling a situational lefty/junk time role, Politte is counted on to be a 3rd option, and guys like Grilli and Adkins are even on the team in any capacity, we're totally screwed no matter what offense we run out there.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 01:12 AM
I have a question that i know that pretty much no one will have an answer for. Why is JR so freaking cheap? Ive heard in the past that he would trade all 6 NBA titles for 1 WS ring. Then spend the money. Boston, yeah they finally broke their "curse" and it only took 130+ million to do it. Im not talking about going that high, but having a payroll on par with the others in the division is ridiculous. Win and you will fill the stadium every night for years to come. There is no reason baseball has to be second class on the southside. Spend money to make money. I know its his team and he can do whatever the hell he wants, but if he truly wants to win so badly he is gonna have to spend. Our minor leagues at least at the AA and AAA hasnt produced much of anything, so you have to make a splash on the market. Well I vented. Im just sick and am really worried that the cubs are gonna make us look foolish this offseason. I will be sick to my stomach if magglio ordonez is in RF for them next year. Or renteria at SS and percival out of the pen.
I heard JR say once that he would have broken up the lucky Bulls of the 90's after their 5th championship. That is crazy. You never know when you're next championship is going to be.

Now JR could ask Sox fans why they don't have faith and come to the games in larger numbers. Maybe if there were 45,000 at each game JR would spend more money.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 01:12 AM
OK guys, the Randy talk is nice, but futile, but how about a real need that must be addressed before the season starts. We can strugle along again without Randy, but Sandy is gone, and who is going to take his place
http://medball.com/images/baseball/BS273P.jpg

Good option, under $60 :wink:

NWSox
11-16-2004, 01:13 AM
Then spend the money. Boston, yeah they finally broke their "curse" and it only took 130+ million to do it. Im not talking about going that high, but having a payroll on par with the others in the division is ridiculous. Win and you will fill the stadium every night for years to come. There is no reason baseball has to be second class on the southside. Spend money to make money.
I know you were venting and I feel the same way when I watch a team like the Red Sox spend the money and win the Series, but 1) even with a modest "spend it and they will come" strategy, the Sox still end up seriously below the big spenders and probably not much closer to a championship, and 2) prior to the Red Sox, the Marlins and Angels won with middle of the pack payrolls. From what I recall, that Angels roster had been together for a few years, and finally jelled with the right manager and a couple of young pitchers. And the Marlins won with some home grown pitching talent. That strategy seems far more likely to pay off than buying each year off the budget FA rack.

NWSox
11-16-2004, 01:19 AM
am really worried that the cubs are gonna make us look foolish this offseason. I will be sick to my stomach if magglio ordonez is in RF for them next year. Or renteria at SS and percival out of the pen.
I forgot about this part of the post. The Cubs are the gift that keeps on giving. No need to worry about this. I'm sure the Cubs will provide us with some great pleasure again next fall.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 01:26 AM
"If the question is 'Would I do something stupid?' the answer is ... maybe." -- Kenny Williams 6/3/04

6/27/04 -- Trades Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo, and Michael Morse to Mariners for Freddy Garcia and Ben Davis.
Hands down the best signiture onthe board. I was furious coming home from the White Sox pounding of the Cubs after I heard about the trade (though not as much as Miguel Olivo). My feelings have only gotten stronger. If it weren't for the even more idiotic Contreras & Everett trades, we would have $19 mil (or $10 mil and Garcia FA) and added to the $14 mil for Ordonez we could have signed Lowell, Pavano and Leiber / other SP as well as another quality middle / late reliever for this lineup:

J Reed, A Rowland, F Thomas, P Konerko, C Lee, M Lowell, J Uribe, M Olivo, W Harris - $38 mil

C Pavano, M Buehrle, F Garcia, J Leiber, J Garland - $31 mil

S Takatsu, D Marte, C Politte, 1 FA and 2 at the minimum. - $8 mil

We would have an awesome heart of the order (who also walk / get on) with the top and bottom of the lineup much improved (and younger).

Basically we are stuck with Crede, Everett & Contreras who we will be lucky to get 1 decent season combined from the three who will get over $10 million next year.

Jjav829
11-16-2004, 01:41 AM
Don't assume because you know what assumes makes me and especially you. Kendall makes about $9 mill a year. He's basically a singles hitter 390 slg. What I don't like is he's going to be 31 and has played more than 1200 games as a catcher. He's on the down side of his career. Since you're a stat guy look at the stats of catchers after they have caught 1200 games. Their stats go down hill IF they stay at catcher. And I don't want to hear about just one guy like Fisk.

For 9 mill, Kendall isn't a good valve. Even if the Pirates pay some of his salary he's still not a good valve.So in your mind, Ichiro is surely overrated, correct? I mean he's a right fielder, a position normally filled by someone with power, yet he's a singles hitter. 8 HR's? That has to inexcusable by your standards.

I'll admit you have a valid concern about his age catching up to him. That is in fact the one concern I have. However, I do feel he has maybe 2 good years left in him before he has to make the switch. I'm not sure where he would make that move to. I suppose the outfield experiment could be revisited, though maybe he'd be willing to give second base a try.

I'd still like to know why you think Kendall has to hit for power to justify his contract. Being one of the best leadoff men in baseball at getting on base, and one of the toughest outs in the game, isn't enough?

Jjav829
11-16-2004, 01:42 AM
Hands down the best signiture onthe board. I was furious coming home from the White Sox pounding of the Cubs after I heard about the trade (though not as much as Miguel Olivo). My feelings have only gotten stronger. If it weren't for the even more idiotic Contreras & Everett trades, we would have $19 mil (or $10 mil and Garcia FA) and added to the $14 mil for Ordonez we could have signed Lowell, Pavano and Leiber / other SP as well as another quality middle / late reliever for this lineup:

J Reed, A Rowland, F Thomas, P Konerko, C Lee, M Lowell, J Uribe, M Olivo, W Harris - $38 mil

C Pavano, M Buehrle, F Garcia, J Leiber, J Garland - $31 mil

S Takatsu, D Marte, C Politte, 1 FA and 2 at the minimum. - $8 mil

We would have an awesome heart of the order (who also walk / get on) with the top and bottom of the lineup much improved (and younger).

Basically we are stuck with Crede, Everett & Contreras who we will be lucky to get 1 decent season combined from the three who will get over $10 million next year.You're 10 posts into WSI, and I'm still wondering who Rowland is....

SouthSide_HitMen
11-16-2004, 01:54 AM
You're 10 posts into WSI, and I'm still wondering who Rowland is....
:rolleyes: Sorry, I knew a guy name Rowland growing up and for whatever reason I always call Rowand Rowland.

In either case, I am glad he is a Chicago White Sox for 2005 and hopefully beyond.

Thanks for the correction.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 02:09 AM
So in your mind, Ichiro is surely overrated, correct? I mean he's a right fielder, a position normally filled by someone with power, yet he's a singles hitter. 8 HR's? That has to inexcusable by your standards.

I'll admit you have a valid concern about his age catching up to him. That is in fact the one concern I have. However, I do feel he has maybe 2 good years left in him before he has to make the switch. I'm not sure where he would make that move to. I suppose the outfield experiment could be revisited, though maybe he'd be willing to give second base a try.

I'd still like to know why you think Kendall has to hit for power to justify his contract. Being one of the best leadoff men in baseball at getting on base, and one of the toughest outs in the game, isn't enough?There you go assuming again. But when Kendall gets 250 hits, steals 30 bases, and puts the kind of pressure on defenses that Ichiro does then I will say the White Sox should get Kendall.

Catching has traditionally been a power position. Piazza took it to a different level. But when a catcher only hits 4 HR's, even Ichiro outhomered Kendall, that's not saying much.

I know Kendall's role is to be a leadoff hitter but who would you rather have? Ichiro at $7 mil or Kendall at $9 mill?

johnny_mostil
11-16-2004, 07:39 AM
IHaving said that, I'd still love the Sox to get him, because I can't remember when someone other than Thomas posted an OBP like that. Too bad he'll only go to the west coast.
Belle, in 1998... Tony Phillips, in 1996... Raines om 1993... it happens...

johnny_mostil
11-16-2004, 07:39 AM
I know Kendall's role is to be a leadoff hitter but who would you rather have? Ichiro at $7 mil or Kendall at $9 mill?Ichiro isn't available, now is he?

Jjav829
11-16-2004, 07:52 AM
There you go assuming again. But when Kendall gets 250 hits, steals 30 bases, and puts the kind of pressure on defenses that Ichiro does then I will say the White Sox should get Kendall.

Catching has traditionally been a power position. Piazza took it to a different level. But when a catcher only hits 4 HR's, even Ichiro outhomered Kendall, that's not saying much.

I know Kendall's role is to be a leadoff hitter but who would you rather have? Ichiro at $7 mil or Kendall at $9 mill?Ichiro at $7 million. But he's not available. So who is the next best option? Jason Kendall at $9 million.

You still haven't given me a case as for why it is so imperative that a catcher hit home runs to be considered a good player. Would you rather Kendall sacrifice 40 hits a season in order to try to hit 8-10 more home runs? I know I sure as hell wouldn't. That would be like telling Willie Harris to forget about spending time learning to steal bases or drop down a bunt, but rather spend that time taking big hacks trying to take advantage of the way the ball flies out at the Cell? He's not a home run hitter. Neither is Juan Pierre, or Luis Castillo, or Chone Figgins, or Ichiro. Does that make them bad players? They all do what they do very well.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2004, 12:40 PM
NWSox:

Just wondering....then how do the Sox ever win something?

You infer that signing top free agents for high salaries isn't the way to go....but we also know the Sox minor league system hasn't produced top MLB players since the early 90's in quality and quantity.

So if you don't import talent and pay for it and can't produce it then how do you win? (and I don't mean an average of 83 victories since the start of the 1998 season)

Lip

santo=dorf
11-16-2004, 12:56 PM
If you're looking for a leadoff hitter, no. Both have career OBP of about .340. Harris had a .343 OBP last year. And he has a lot more speed. What's so much better? If they wanted a guy as insurance against one of the young players not coming through, that's a different story, but I wouldn't pay more than $2-3M for an insurance player.
I posted this once before, Willie Harris' OBP is misleading.
Here's how he does it:
5-5
0-4
1-4
0-3, 1 BB
0-4
.350 OBP

He's too damn incosistent, and doesn't deserve to play everyday.

LAWSfan
11-16-2004, 02:31 PM
Ichiro at $7 million. But he's not available. So who is the next best option? Jason Kendall at $9 million.

You still haven't given me a case as for why it is so imperative that a catcher hit home runs to be considered a good player. Would you rather Kendall sacrifice 40 hits a season in order to try to hit 8-10 more home runs? I know I sure as hell wouldn't. That would be like telling Willie Harris to forget about spending time learning to steal bases or drop down a bunt, but rather spend that time taking big hacks trying to take advantage of the way the ball flies out at the Cell? He's not a home run hitter. Neither is Juan Pierre, or Luis Castillo, or Chone Figgins, or Ichiro. Does that make them bad players? They all do what they do very well.
Forgetting that Kendall makes $9 mil as a singles hitting catcher, just judging him as a lead off hitter. He does get on base a lot. That's a plus. But once he's one base he's can't steal a base. So that's a minus. He's a 31 year old catcher. That's another minus. He makes $9 mil. Minus. He's a average to below average defensive catcher. Minus.

Have you ever heard of Johnny Bench? Carlton Fisk? They were power hitting catchers. Catcher has been a defensive position first and foremost. But those who could hit, have usually hit for power.

And you do want your leadoff hitter to steal bases even if the stupid moneyball doesn't valve it. I'll just give you this stat. If a player steals bases at a 60% rate that is better than every batter in baseball (aside from Bonds) getting on base. And 60% rate isn't a good rate for a good base stealer.