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santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 05:53 AM
Bruce Levine has been reporting that the Giants have made an offer to Omar, and I got this article from the Giants MLB board. Registration is required to read the article, but some copied and pasted the entire article at the board.
www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/10177833.htm (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/10177833.htm)
The San Francisco Giants are close to filling one of their holes with the imminent signing of veteran shortstop Omar Vizquel to a three-year deal for about $12 million.
The signing could be announced as early as Sunday, a major league source told the Contra Costa Times

Jabroni
11-14-2004, 07:47 AM
Weird. All signs indicated that the White Sox were close to signing Vizquel. The Sox were believed to be offering him a 2 year, $10 million contract with an option for a third year. Supposedly, Vizquel even wanted to play for the White Sox. :?:

If Vizquel does sign with the Giants, who will the Sox sign to play shortstop? I hope we resign Valentin!

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 09:03 AM
Well, I would guess this means that the Sox supposed offer had a team option, rather than a player option. The Giants stepped up with a guaranteed 3rd year, and Omar preferred to have that guaranteed 3rd year.

Man, if he signs there, what next? Please, Kenny, NO Christian Guzman!

ondafarm
11-14-2004, 09:17 AM
If Vizquel does sign with the Giants, who will the Sox sign to play shortstop? I hope we resign Valentin!
Wilson Valdez will get the majority of starts at SS for the 2005 Chicago White Sox.

oldcomiskey
11-14-2004, 09:27 AM
Wilson Valdez will get the majority of starts at SS for the 2005 Chicago White Sox.
I disagree--if Visquel signs with the giants--we will have either Guzman or valentin at SS

samram
11-14-2004, 09:49 AM
Well, I would guess this means that the Sox supposed offer had a team option, rather than a player option. The Giants stepped up with a guaranteed 3rd year, and Omar preferred to have that guaranteed 3rd year.

Man, if he signs there, what next? Please, Kenny, NO Christian Guzman!
I could also see them deciding to play Uribe at SS and going after Womack or Todd Walker to play 2B.

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 10:15 AM
I could also see them deciding to play Uribe at SS and going after Womack or Todd Walker to play 2B.
That would be a MUCH better option than going after Guzman. Guzman has reportedly received two contract offers so far, and neither of them from the Twins. I sure hope one of them wasn't from the Sox!

Jabroni
11-14-2004, 10:21 AM
Well, I would guess this means that the Sox supposed offer had a team option, rather than a player option. The Giants stepped up with a guaranteed 3rd year, and Omar preferred to have that guaranteed 3rd year.

Man, if he signs there, what next? Please, Kenny, NO Christian Guzman!Wouldn't you think that the Sox offer of $10 million for 2 years with a $5 million team option for the third year would be more appealing than the Giants offer of $12 million for 3 years?

This goes to show that the demand for quality shortstops is pretty high. All the people ripping on the possible Vizquel signing were saying that he only deserves $3 million a year. :rolleyes:

Jabroni
11-14-2004, 10:22 AM
I could also see them deciding to play Uribe at SS and going after Womack or Todd Walker to play 2B.I love that idea. Womack wouldn't be that expensive and he can actually leadoff. Plus, he can steal bases and bunt. You know, all that stuff that Willie Harris can do.

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 10:23 AM
Wouldn't you think that the Sox offer of $10 million for 2 years with a team option for a third year would be more appealing than the Giants offer of $12 million for 3 years?

This goes to show that the demand for quality shortstops is pretty high. All the people ripping on the possible Vizquel signing were saying that he only deserves $3 million a year. :rolleyes:
Not necessarily. For a guy who is 38, he might prefer to have that extra year and extra $2 million guaranteed, rather than hoping he plays well enough to have the team pick up the option.

jabrch
11-14-2004, 10:28 AM
3 years....and people here were bitching about two years? Bonds would love to have a guy like Vizquel hitting in front of him. So too would Frank. I hope plan B has nothing to do with Guzman or Valentin.

Jabroni
11-14-2004, 10:31 AM
3 years....and people here were bitching about two years? Bonds would love to have a guy like Vizquel hitting in front of him. So too would Frank. I hope plan B has nothing to do with Guzman or Valentin.Yep, it just goes to show what the armchair GM's here truly know about the market value of players. :rolleyes:

Clembasbal
11-14-2004, 10:34 AM
I could also see them deciding to play Uribe at SS and going after Womack or Todd Walker to play 2B.
I can see myself liking Womack...but Walker, no way in hell.

The guy is a bum fielder and just a bum. The Red Sox won on hitting and fielding, after they let go of Nomar their fielding went way up and a lot of people were talking about that bringing them back into contention.

Fielding is key, ask anybody. Walker just doesn't have it, I don't care if he can hit. WE have enough stiffs out there already.

Jabroni
11-14-2004, 10:36 AM
I can see myself liking Womack...but Walker, no way in hell.

The guy is a bum fielder and just a bum. The Red Sox won on hitting and fielding, after they let go of Nomar their fielding went way up and a lot of people were talking about that bringing them back into contention.

Fielding is key, ask anybody. Walker just doesn't have it, I don't care if he can hit. WE have enough stiffs out there already.I love the Womack at 2B and Uribe at SS idea. It would be inexpensive and give Ozzie more of the small-ball / base-stealing lineup that he wants. Womack would instantly solve our leadoff hitter hole.

depy48
11-14-2004, 10:51 AM
if vizquel goes to the giants, which now looks like a possibility...
the sox CAN NOT get desperate and overpay for Guzman.

ondafarm
11-14-2004, 10:59 AM
I disagree--if Visquel signs with the giants--we will have either Guzman or valentin at SS
No way!!! Uribe will get some starts at SS but Valdez will become the main guy. He may even win ROY.

hitlesswonder
11-14-2004, 11:09 AM
This goes to show that the demand for quality shortstops is pretty high. All the people ripping on the possible Vizquel signing were saying that he only deserves $3 million a year. :rolleyes:
I'm surprised that another team is willing to spend that much money. But I think that people who didn't like the idea of spending that much money on Vizquel aren't the only ones who are surprised. Rex, who I think is strongly in favor of adding Vizquel, orginally thought he'd be signable for around 2.5 to 3 million a year.

MRKARNO
11-14-2004, 11:34 AM
Thank you Brian Sabean for saving the White Sox from an absolutely terrible contract.

Rex Hudler
11-14-2004, 11:36 AM
Wouldn't you think that the Sox offer of $10 million for 2 years with a $5 million team option for the third year would be more appealing than the Giants offer of $12 million for 3 years?

This goes to show that the demand for quality shortstops is pretty high. All the people ripping on the possible Vizquel signing were saying that he only deserves $3 million a year. :rolleyes:
Where are you getting that the option year was for $5 million??? That is certainly not information I have seen in print, nor heard from my sources (god that sounds so smug lol).

beckett21
11-14-2004, 11:36 AM
Wouldn't you think that the Sox offer of $10 million for 2 years with a $5 million team option for the third year would be more appealing than the Giants offer of $12 million for 3 years?

This goes to show that the demand for quality shortstops is pretty high. All the people ripping on the possible Vizquel signing were saying that he only deserves $3 million a year. :rolleyes:
Sounds like all the KW/Vizquel haters may get their wish. I'm sure someone will find a way to blame this on Kenny and label Sabean a genius. :rolleyes:

Rex Hudler
11-14-2004, 11:38 AM
I can see myself liking Womack...but Walker, no way in hell.

The guy is a bum fielder and just a bum. The Red Sox won on hitting and fielding, after they let go of Nomar their fielding went way up and a lot of people were talking about that bringing them back into contention.

Fielding is key, ask anybody. Walker just doesn't have it, I don't care if he can hit. WE have enough stiffs out there already.
I agree about not wanting Walker, but it's not like the Red Sox upgraded much defensively in Bellhorn. Bellhorn wasn't in the starting lineup because of his glove.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 11:40 AM
Wilson Valdez will get the majority of starts at SS for the 2005 Chicago White Sox.
Have you seen Wilson Valdez swing a bat? My God... he looks like a scrawny Paul Bunyan with an axe. Chris Singleton's swing was positively George Brett-esque compared to Valdez's.
:o:

Valdez is at most a utility infielder. Frankly I doubt he is even good for that.

Rex Hudler
11-14-2004, 11:41 AM
I'm surprised that another team is willing to spend that much money. But I think that people who didn't like the idea of spending that much money on Vizquel aren't the only ones who are surprised. Rex, who I think is strongly in favor of adding Vizquel, orginally thought he'd be signable for around 2.5 to 3 million a year.
All I know is that Omar would have stayed in Cleveland for two years at $3 million per....... and that Cleveland fans aren't happy management is letting him go. I know the effects free agency can have, but yes, I am surprised at where the market has ended up for Omar. In my mind, this does validate my thoughts on him still having plenty left in the tank to be a productive player.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 11:42 AM
Don't worry. Reinsdorf will raise ticket prices another $2 per ticket and then we'll offer Vizquel the option year.

Isn't that the logic the know-nothings use?
:?:

SoxxoS
11-14-2004, 11:43 AM
Give me Uribe and Walker and 2.5 million (?) over Vizquel/Uribe.

This may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. We weren't going to get any numbers better than last year from Vizquel...probably a slight decline, actually.

OEO Magglio
11-14-2004, 11:53 AM
Give me Uribe and Walker and 2.5 million (?) over Vizquel/Uribe.

This may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. We weren't going to get any numbers better than last year from Vizquel...probably a slight decline, actually.
Not all about the numbers. The sox need someone like Vizquel, a guy that can hit 2nd, that can move runners along and bunt, Omar is such a perfect player for this team, if he goes to the giants I'm not going to be very happy. :angry:

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 11:54 AM
If Vizquel does sign with the Giants, I hope Kenny looks for a second baseman, keeping Uribe at short. All of the other shortstop options are likely to get overpaid. I would like to see Kenny go after Placido Polanco. Polanco at 2nd and Uribe at short sounds good to me. Tony Womack kind of scares me. If I knew we'd be getting the 2004 Tony Womack, I'd definitely take him. But the guy suddenly has a career year at the age of 35 after spending 10 years struggling to put up decent numbers. That worries me. Depending on the price, I think Polanco is a better option.

ondafarm
11-14-2004, 11:55 AM
Have you seen Wilson Valdez swing a bat? My God... he looks like a scrawny Paul Bunyan with an axe. Chris Singleton's swing was positively George Brett-esque compared to Valdez's.
:o:

Valdez is at most a utility infielder. Frankly I doubt he is even good for that.
Have seen it plenty in the minors. He'll be fine slapping the ball around and getting singles, which is what a SS should be doing.

infohawk
11-14-2004, 11:59 AM
Bruce Levine has been reporting that the Giants have made an offer to Omar, and I got this article from the Giants MLB board. Registration is required to read the article, but some copied and pasted the entire article at the board.
www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/10177833.htm (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/10177833.htm)
I wouldn't place too much stock in the article claiming that Vizquel is likely to sign with the Giants. It may very well happen, but I have some doubts. Remember, several other articles claimed that Vizquel signing with the Sox was imminent. Which do you believe, if any?

Normally I would agree that a player choosing between two contract offers would take the extra guaranteed year/money. A player like Vizquel, however, is about 38 years old and has already made quite a bit of money in his career. It could very well be that he would just assume stay in the central division and play for Ozzie, a countryman for whom he evidently has a great deal of respect.

In the event Vizquel does sign elsewhere, I would agree with some other posters that perhaps the Sox should designate Uribe as the everyday shortstop and seek to acquire a second baseman who could bat somewhere at the top of the order.

mantis1212
11-14-2004, 12:04 PM
I love that idea. Womack wouldn't be that expensive and he can actually leadoff. Plus, he can steal bases and bunt. You know, all that stuff that Willie Harris can do.
What he said

Over By There
11-14-2004, 12:07 PM
I expect to see much rejoicing on the parts of the experts in this thread:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41753

Actually, naw, they'll find something to criticize about the Sox letting Omar slip away.

Brian26
11-14-2004, 12:13 PM
I was just talking to a guy at the card shop yesterday...he asked me if Vizquel was a done deal, and I said of course. A lot can change in 24 hours.

OEO Magglio
11-14-2004, 12:14 PM
FWIW there a couple articles that came out today that said vizquel signing with the sox is imminent, I think we're just going to have to wait and see with this one, hopefully he's playing short for the sox this upcoming season. :smile:

mdep524
11-14-2004, 12:15 PM
If Vizquel does sign with the Giants, I hope Kenny looks for a second baseman, keeping Uribe at short. All of the other shortstop options are likely to get overpaid. I would like to see Kenny go after Placido Polanco. Polanco at 2nd and Uribe at short sounds good to me. Tony Womack kind of scares me. If I knew we'd be getting the 2004 Tony Womack, I'd definitely take him. But the guy suddenly has a career year at the age of 35 after spending 10 years struggling to put up decent numbers. That worries me. Depending on the price, I think Polanco is a better option.
Totally agreed. If the Sox lose out on Vizquel, I don't like any of the other SS options. It would be best in that situation to leave Uribe at SS and go after a 2B- the best choice would be Jerry Haiston of Baltimore.

MRKARNO
11-14-2004, 12:32 PM
I know he hasnt proven that he can stay healthy for a whole season, but it would be a good idea IMO to sign Larkin to a cheap contract. He's certainly lost a step, but he can still hit with most of today's shortstops.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=3901

beckett21
11-14-2004, 12:33 PM
I expect to see much rejoicing on the parts of the experts in this thread:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41753

Actually, naw, they'll find something to criticize about the Sox letting Omar slip away.Of course.

What, you don't appreciate people criticizing KW for moves he hasn't even made? :?:

Whatever way this shakes out, the haters will find a reason to hate. If KW signs Omar, it will be a colossal mistake. If he doesn't, it will be because Sabean saved him from himself by offering a ridiculous contract, not because KW consciously had anything to do with it--just dumb luck. Additionally, whatever KW's next move will be, it will be spun as infinitely worse than signing Vizquel would have been.

Book it.

:bs:

beckett21
11-14-2004, 12:36 PM
I know he hasnt proven that he can stay healthy for a whole season, but it would be a good idea IMO to sign Larkin to a cheap contract. He's certainly lost a step, but he can still hit with most of today's shortstops.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=3901
No. Thank. You.

THAT would be an awful signing. No offense meant, but talk about worthless...Larkin has had nothing left for several years now. He is the SS equivalent to Sandy Alomar Jr.

I'll take the Uribe-at-SS option and go for a 2B like Hairston as plan B.

Wealz
11-14-2004, 12:43 PM
Of course.

What, you don't appreciate people criticizing KW for moves he hasn't even made? :?:

Whatever way this shakes out, the haters will find a reason to hate. If KW signs Omar, it will be a colossal mistake. If he doesn't, it will be because Sabean saved him from himself by offering a ridiculous contract, not because KW consciously had anything to do with it--just dumb luck. Additionally, whatever KW's next move will be, it will be spun as infinitely worse than signing Vizquel would have been.

Book it.

:bs:
Williams' record speaks for itself.

MRKARNO
11-14-2004, 12:43 PM
No. Thank. You.

THAT would be an awful signing. No offense meant, but talk about worthless...Larkin has had nothing left for several years now. He is the SS equivalent to Sandy Alomar Jr.

I'll take the Uribe-at-SS option and go for a 2B like Hairston as plan B.
If we can get Hairston in a fair deal than we should. You're probably right in that Larkin isnt worth a roster spot.

As much as everyone dislikes Harris, I'm beginning to think that he might be the best realistic option at 2B. A lot of these FA options only seem better because of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" logic. Harri stole 19 bases and has the potential for more and had a .343 OBP with decent defense. If we cant get Walker or Hairston, then we may be best off sticking with Harris.

MRKARNO
11-14-2004, 12:45 PM
Williams' record speaks for itself. Here we go again....

Wealz
11-14-2004, 12:46 PM
I know he hasnt proven that he can stay healthy for a whole season, but it would be a good idea IMO to sign Larkin to a cheap contract. He's certainly lost a step, but he can still hit with most of today's shortstops.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=3901
If he agreed to move to second for 1 yr/$1M I think it would be a good gamble.

Wealz
11-14-2004, 12:49 PM
Here we go again....
The one thing that Williams apologists never have an argument for is his record.

beckett21
11-14-2004, 12:54 PM
If we can get Hairston in a fair deal than we should. You're probably right in that Larkin isnt worth a roster spot.

As much as everyone dislikes Harris, I'm beginning to think that he might be the best realistic option at 2B. A lot of these FA options only seem better because of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" logic. Harri stole 19 bases and has the potential for more and had a .343 OBP with decent defense. If we cant get Walker or Hairston, then we may be best off sticking with Harris.
It would depend upon what the O's want for Hairston, of course. Unless they would rather part with Roberts, which would be fine too. I have no idea what the contract situation is for either guy outside of the fact that neither one is a FA, so admittedly I don't know how feasible a trade would be. But I would imagine they plan to deal one of them, probably Hairston.

I do somewhat agree with *the grass is greener* logic, and Harris deserves more slack than say Crede at this point. That said, I still believe that Willie should be coming off the bench. Just my opinion.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 12:56 PM
The one thing that Williams apologists never have an argument for is his record.
No, we get sick of defending him because it's always the same story being told. This thread is about Omar possibly signing with another team, not KW's record.

Go waste your time reading this thread (www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39346) if you want to see a KW fight.

beckett21
11-14-2004, 12:56 PM
Here we go again....
All I did was throw out the bait....I'll sit back and watch the carnage develop.

:redneck

Wealz
11-14-2004, 01:00 PM
No, we get sick of defending him because it's always the same story being told. This thread is about Omar possibly signing with another team, not KW's record.
Good point.

beckett21
11-14-2004, 01:06 PM
If he agreed to move to second for 1 yr/$1M I think it would be a good gamble.
I would call it a waste of a million dollars.

Tell you what, I'd be happy to play 2B for this season for half that amount....if the Sox really want to throw money down the toilet. :redneck

California Sox
11-14-2004, 01:07 PM
Of course.

What, you don't appreciate people criticizing KW for moves he hasn't even made? :?:

Whatever way this shakes out, the haters will find a reason to hate.
Not everyone against this signing is a KW "hater." I'm against because I don't believe it makes sense to give a 37 year-old shortstop $10 mil when the competitive window for this team has closed. The Giants are in the proper position to make moves like this. They have to add pieces and try to win a championship while Bonds is still playing. We've lost Maggs, Frank is a question mark, and the rest of this team is simply not very good. Talent-wise, the Sox appear much closer to Toronto, Cleveland, even Detroit, than they do to Boston, New York, and Anaheim. Therefore, I'd like to see them refrain from stopgap measures to "win now" and concentrate on building a good team for the next five years. That's just my opinion, though. A lot of people on this board seem to think the Sox are one or two players away. Frankly, I hope you guys are right, but I don't see it that way.

Wealz
11-14-2004, 01:13 PM
I would call it a waste of a million dollars.

Tell you what, I'd be happy to play 2B for this season for half that amount....if the Sox really want to throw money down the toilet. :redneck
Larkin had a better year offensively than Vizquel.

MRKARNO
11-14-2004, 01:17 PM
Not everyone against this signing is a KW "hater." I'm against because I don't believe it makes sense to give a 37 year-old shortstop $10 mil when the competitive window for this team has closed. The Giants are in the proper position to make moves like this. They have to add pieces and try to win a championship while Bonds is still playing. We've lost Maggs, Frank is a question mark, and the rest of this team is simply not very good. Talent-wise, the Sox appear much closer to Toronto, Cleveland, even Detroit, than they do to Boston, New York, and Anaheim. Therefore, I'd like to see them refrain from stopgap measures to "win now" and concentrate on building a good team for the next five years. That's just my opinion, though. A lot of people on this board seem to think the Sox are one or two players away. Frankly, I hope you guys are right, but I don't see it that way.
I agree somewhat. I think we're in a unique position, where we're not really a contender, but we have the ability to become one without much difficulty if a few things fall our way here and there. The Vizquel signing is ill-advised because you just dont give that much money to a 37 year old SS who isnt that much of an upgrade over Willie Harris and when we could use that money for a solid Starting pitcher or an elite relief pitcher.

beckett21
11-14-2004, 01:19 PM
Not everyone against this signing is a KW "hater." I'm against because I don't believe it makes sense to give a 37 year-old shortstop $10 mil when the competitive window for this team has closed. The Giants are in the proper position to make moves like this. They have to add pieces and try to win a championship while Bonds is still playing. We've lost Maggs, Frank is a question mark, and the rest of this team is simply not very good. Talent-wise, the Sox appear much closer to Toronto, Cleveland, even Detroit, than they do to Boston, New York, and Anaheim. Therefore, I'd like to see them refrain from stopgap measures to "win now" and concentrate on building a good team for the next five years. That's just my opinion, though. A lot of people on this board seem to think the Sox are one or two players away. Frankly, I hope you guys are right, but I don't see it that way.Sorry to generalize. I respect your opinion, and even that of the so-called *KW haters* for that matter. It just gets tiring to see KW criticized not only for the moves he makes, but those that he never even made. The guy is not perfect by any means, but it is only fair to judge him on the moves he actually makes. If I never hear about the Garland-for-Erstad or the Magglio-for-Nomar deal again, it will be too soon.

KW should not be absolved of any responsibility until the team actually wins something. That much I can agree with. It is his team now and he should be held accountable. Where I take exception is when people run with a rumor and brand him a moron when they have absolutely NO idea what is going on behind the scenes. Wait until it actually happens.

But again, I guess that is what keeps this forum so interesting. :cool:

Wealz
11-14-2004, 01:26 PM
Sorry to generalize. I respect your opinion, and even that of the so-called *KW haters* for that matter. It just gets tiring to see KW criticized not only for the moves he makes, but those that he never even made. The guy is not perfect by any means, but it is only fair to judge him on the moves he actually makes. If I never hear about the Garland-for-Erstad or the Magglio-for-Nomar deal again, it will be too soon.

KW should not be absolved of any responsibility until the team actually wins something. That much I can agree with. It is his team now and he should be held accountable. Where I take exception is when people run with a rumor and brand him a moron when they have absolutely NO idea what is going on behind the scenes. Wait until it actually happens.

But again, I guess that is what keeps this forum so interesting. :cool:
So it's not okay to criticise Williams for moves he hasn't made, but in your original post on this topic you were critical of Williams detractors for opinions they haven't expressed . . .

beckett21
11-14-2004, 01:30 PM
So it's not okay to criticise Williams for moves he hasn't made, but in your original post on this topic you were critical of Williams detractors for opinions they haven't expressed . . .....and I have been taken to task on it. I can accept that.

Touche'.

Just call me :cleo

JRIG
11-14-2004, 01:33 PM
Shortly after the Giants sign Vizquel...


:KW

"Hi, is this Felix Fermin? Great! You're a former Indian right? Good. And you were once traded for Omar Vizquel, right? Even better! OK, how do you feel about a 2-year, $10 million contract?"

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 01:34 PM
Larkin had a better year offensively than Vizquel. How so?
Vizquel: .291 BA, .353 OBP, 7 HR, 59 RBI's, 19 SB.
Larkin: .289 BA, .352 OBP, 8 HR, 44 RBI's, 2 SB.

I know Larkin only played in 111 games, which says something about his health, but he had more HR's than Omar. BFD.
Hitting home runs haven't gotten the Sox anywhere in recent history and Omar or Larkin wouldn't be brought in here to hit home runs regardless.

johnny_mostil
11-14-2004, 01:36 PM
I agree about not wanting Walker, but it's not like the Red Sox upgraded much defensively in Bellhorn. Bellhorn wasn't in the starting lineup because of his glove.
Todd Walker == Jorge Orta

Wealz
11-14-2004, 01:37 PM
How so?
Vizquel: .291 BA, .353 OBP, 7 HR, 59 RBI's, 19 SB.
Larkin: .289 BA, .352 OBP, 8 HR, 44 RBI's, 2 SB.
I don't see either player's slugging percentage listed.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 01:41 PM
I don't see either player's slugging percentage listed.
Larkin .419
Omar .388

This is exactly what the Sox need, a slugging shortstop. Afterall, that's is the whole point of signing a guy like Omar. We NEED more homers!!!!

:dtroll:

beckett21
11-14-2004, 01:42 PM
I don't see either player's slugging percentage listed.
So...since Larkin had a slugging % 30 points higher in 200 less AB's....he had a better season? :?:

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 01:43 PM
So it's not okay to criticise Williams for moves he hasn't made, but in your original post on this topic you were critical of Williams detractors for opinions they haven't expressed . . .These two are not even remotely related. Beckett said you shouldn't criticize KW for something you don't know about, rumors. We all know exactly what the FOBB's and Haters will say before they ever post. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 01:47 PM
Quick question.
Do sacrifice bunts count as plate appearances?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 01:49 PM
These two are not even remotely related. Beckett said you shouldn't criticize KW for something you don't know about, rumors. We all know exactly what the FOBB's and Haters will say before they ever post. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Yep. This thread is setting a new low for the FOBB and the KW haters. Now we're arguing about KW's complicity in completing or not completing a free agent signing that hasn't even happened yet -- for the Sox or anybody else!

Is there any FOBB or KW hater left on this board with a shred of conscience... or even a leg of reasoned thinking to stand on?
:?:

I think we all know the answer to both of these questions.
:cool:

Wealz
11-14-2004, 01:51 PM
So...since Larkin had a slugging % 30 points higher in 200 less AB's....he had a better season? :?:
A better offensive season, yes.

MisterB
11-14-2004, 01:51 PM
Quick question.
Do sacrifice bunts count as plate appearances?
Sacrifices don't count as at-bats, but everything counts as plate appearances.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 01:55 PM
Sacrifices don't count as at-bats, but everything counts as plate appearances. So then a guy like Omar who drops a lot of bunts down tends to have a lower OBP and SLG% than a guy who just goes up there and slugs to move the runner over.

And Wealz, determining which player had the better offensive season entirely on OBP is just sad. :rolleyes:

oldcomiskey
11-14-2004, 01:57 PM
No way!!! Uribe will get some starts at SS but Valdez will become the main guy. He may even win ROY.

and the sox may go after Larry walker--its possible but damned unlikely

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 02:00 PM
and the sox may go after Larry walker--its possible but damned unlikely
Larry Walker will be in St. Louis next year, and I don't think Todd Walker wants to be part of another platoon situation, and it doesn't make sense consider Walker and Harris are both left handed hitters.

Brian26
11-14-2004, 02:02 PM
It would depend upon what the O's want for Hairston, of course. Unless they would rather part with Roberts, which would be fine too.
Hairston would be a hell of a pickup for secondbase. The more I see of him, the more I like him.

Brian26
11-14-2004, 02:04 PM
Larkin had a better year offensively than Vizquel.
Any offense Larkin put up in 2004 was gravy for the Reds. Nobody was expecting that at all, and I doubt it would happen again.

Wealz
11-14-2004, 02:09 PM
Any offense Larkin put up in 2004 was gravy for the Reds. Nobody was expecting that at all, and I doubt it would happen again.
I agree, but if he were signed for ten times less money than Vizquel . . .

oldcomiskey
11-14-2004, 02:10 PM
Larry Walker will be in St. Louis next year, and I don't think Todd Walker wants to be part of another platoon situation, and it doesn't make sense consider Walker and Harris are both left handed hitters.
thats why I said it was unlikely

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 02:12 PM
thats why I said it was unlikely No, you said that the Sox might go after Larry Walker, an outfielder. What sense does that make? :?:

southsider17
11-14-2004, 02:15 PM
Sarcasm .... look it up.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 02:16 PM
Sarcasm .... look it up. This is what teal is used for.

southsider17
11-14-2004, 02:18 PM
I would think most people would be able to tell the difference regardless.

CWSGuy406
11-14-2004, 02:38 PM
It's official.


Omar is a Giant.


http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/7887714

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2004, 02:40 PM
It's official.


Omar is a Giant.

Hallelujah!! Let someone else pay him three times what he's worth.

ChiWhiteSox1337
11-14-2004, 02:42 PM
Great. I'm looking forward to Crede at 3B, Uribe at SS, and Harris at 2b with wilson valdez thrown in there somewhere. :rolleyes: I hope we can get Hairston..

MarkEdward
11-14-2004, 02:47 PM
On Tony Womack... which one of these things is not like the other?
.271/.325/.353
.226/.251/.307
.307/.349/.385

Those are Womack's last three years. I don't think those numbers really do him justice though. Here are some park-adjusted numbers for his last three years in the majors:
73 OPS+, .239 EQA
40 OPS+, .173 EQA
93 OPS+ (career high), .265 EQA

He's nothing special with the glove either. He does steal bases very well (83% success rate), I'll give him that.

nodiggity59
11-14-2004, 02:47 PM
Hallelujah!! Let someone else pay him three times what he's worth.
Omar Vizquel is closer to being worth $4mil+ than Nomar and Renteria are for $10mil. We missed out badly for a new SS. Now, I think Uribe has to be the guy, everyone else makes too much and Guzman is no better than Uribe. God help us if Uribe continues to be inconsistent. I guess we can turn our attention to 2B/CF/Kendall.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 02:51 PM
So what are we going to do with the $5 million?

:reinsy
"Throw it in the pile I guess."

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 02:53 PM
So how are you going to root for Omar?

If he performs crappy: KW is an idiot for trying to sign this guy.
If he performs well: KW is an idiot for letting him go to the Giants.

nodiggity59
11-14-2004, 02:55 PM
So how are you going to root for Omar?

If he performs crappy: KW is an idiot for trying to sign this guy.
If he performs well: KW is an idiot for letting him go to the Giants.
So wait, are you saying the KW bashers can adjust KWs record to always look bad? Could that be why they claim there's no explanation for KWs record?

HomeFish
11-14-2004, 03:00 PM
Terrible news. The Sox continue to be filled with holes.

johnny_mostil
11-14-2004, 03:01 PM
Not all about the numbers. The sox need someone like Vizquel, a guy that can hit 2nd, that can move runners along and bunt, Omar is such a perfect player for this team, if he goes to the giants I'm not going to be very happy. :angry:No, they don't. They need players who get on base, period. The White Sox did not have a runner-advancement problem except in y'all's wildest imaginations, they had a lack-of-baserunners problem.

Percentage of baserunners who scored, home runs removed, not including hit-by-pitch or reached-on-error (which I don't have):

ANA*32.8%
BOS*32.0%
TEX31.8%
CHW31.5%

BAL31.4%
CLE31.0%
DET30.6%
NYY*30.4%

TBD30.2%
KCR30.1%
TOR29.4%
MIN*29.3%

OAK28.1%
SEA27.6%

Total number of baserunners, home runs removed, not including hit-by-pitch or reached-on-error (which I don't have):

BOS*2272
CLE2171
NYY*2153
OAK2153

BAL2142
ANA*2053
DET2049
SEA2036

MIN*2007
TEX1992
CHW1980
TOR1951

KCR1893
TBD1885
The White Sox need fewer out machines, period.

cbrownson13
11-14-2004, 03:06 PM
This is bad news in my opinion...

www.rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com)

According to his agent, Cristian Guzman has received offers from two teams, neither of which are the Twins.
Guzman could be the top target of the White Sox if Omar Vizquel joins the Giants. It's currently believed that the Twins' choice is to keep Corey Koskie over Guzman. Nov. 14 - 1:31 pm et
Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/stories/509/5083609.html)

WHarris13
11-14-2004, 03:07 PM
That's not bad news, it's terrible news.
I would be done backing KW if we sign Guzman and his .309 OBP.

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 03:09 PM
The Marlins are believed to be interested in acquiring Jose Guillen from the Angels.

Does this mean Juan Pierre is now tradable?

Jjav829
11-14-2004, 03:13 PM
O well. Go get Placido Polanco, Kenny. He's basically Vizquel with the bat. Doesn't strike out a lot, can do the little things you want out of a #2 hitter. He's not quite Vizquel with the glove, but he's not a bad fielder. I don't know what his price would be, but he'd be a nice addition at 2nd. I just hope Kenny doesn't panic and go give the awful Christian Guzman a contract.

SoxxoS
11-14-2004, 03:16 PM
Does this mean Juan Pierre is now tradable?

Guillen is a corner outfielder...so unless they plan on moving someone over...

nodiggity59
11-14-2004, 03:35 PM
O well. Go get Placido Polanco, Kenny. He's basically Vizquel with the bat. Doesn't strike out a lot, can do the little things you want out of a #2 hitter. He's not quite Vizquel with the glove, but he's not a bad fielder. I don't know what his price would be, but he'd be a nice addition at 2nd. I just hope Kenny doesn't panic and go give the awful Christian Guzman a contract.
Unfortunately, the Cubs and Cards are also looking at him. I'd predict him to land in one of those two places before here.

JRIG
11-14-2004, 03:35 PM
O well. Go get Placido Polanco, Kenny. He's basically Vizquel with the bat. Doesn't strike out a lot, can do the little things you want out of a #2 hitter. He's not quite Vizquel with the glove, but he's not a bad fielder. I don't know what his price would be, but he'd be a nice addition at 2nd. I just hope Kenny doesn't panic and go give the awful Christian Guzman a contract.
Polanco would be an excellent fit. He makes too much sense though. My gut says Guzman. Instead of re-building the 95 Indians, we'll start trying to put together the '02 Twins.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 03:47 PM
....I just hope Kenny doesn't panic and go give the awful Christian Guzman a contract.
You're a true Sox Fan, Jjav. Always anticipating the worst.
:wink:

Go have a churro. You've got it coming, pal.
:)

mdep524
11-14-2004, 03:48 PM
It's official.


Omar is a Giant.


http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/7887714
I was looking forward to seeing Vizquel play for the Sox. :(: I really think he was a good fit for this team for the next few years. Oh well. If this means the KW goes out and signs Guzman though... ughhhhh I don't even want to think of it.

Now KW should trade for Hairston and Kendall to put together his infield and his 1 and 2 spots in the lineup.

Kendall C
Hairston 2B
Lee LF
Thomas DH
Everett RF
Rowand CF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Crede 3B

Konerko and Garland are still available in trades for Kendall, Hairston, and a starting pitcher- Mulder, Hudson, Vazquez or Johnson.

nitetrain8601
11-14-2004, 04:05 PM
I was looking forward to seeing Vizquel play for the Sox. :(: I really think he was a good fit for this team for the next few years. Oh well. If this means the KW goes out and signs Guzman though... ughhhhh I don't even want to think of it.

Now KW should trade for Hairston and Kendall to put together his infield and his 1 and 2 spots in the lineup.

Kendall C
Hairston 2B
Lee LF
Thomas DH
Everett RF
Rowand CF
Uribe SS
Gload 1B
Crede 3B

Konerko and Garland are still available in trades for Kendall, Hairston, and a starting pitcher- Mulder, Hudson, Vazquez or Johnson.
Who are you going to trade for Hairston and who are you going to trade for Kendall? It's unbelievable that people value Kendall and Hairston and Frankie C over a guy like Randy Johnson.

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 04:10 PM
Who are you going to trade for Hairston and who are you going to trade for Kendall? It's unbelievable that people value Kendall and Hairston and Frankie C over a guy like Randy Johnson. HMMMM.... People who play every day or a person who only plays every 5 days.

nitetrain8601
11-14-2004, 04:16 PM
HMMMM.... People who play every day or a person who only plays every 5 days.
So you're saying Willie Harris>>>Randy Johnson on this board in terms of value. Crazed White Sox fans on this board. :rolleyes:

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 04:24 PM
Since when does Willie Harris play every day?

mdep524
11-14-2004, 04:24 PM
Who are you going to trade for Hairston and who are you going to trade for Kendall? It's unbelievable that people value Kendall and Hairston and Frankie C over a guy like Randy Johnson.That's for KW to work out. I would imagine Jon Garland plus a prospect or two and maybe Ben Davis would net Kendall. Many WSIers have talked about a Konerko for Hairston and BJ Ryan deal here before, though that seems less likely with Palmero's resigning with the O's. Maybe Konerko could be shopped for a SP- Vazquez, Mulder, Hudson, Johnson- and some array of prospects could be used for Hairston. It will be really interesting to see how (and if) KW handles all this.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 04:29 PM
Since when does Willie Harris play every day? So you're saying Joe Crede is more valuable than Randy Johnson just because he plays everyday?

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 04:44 PM
So you're saying Joe Crede is more valuable than Randy Johnson just because he plays everyday? Another bad example, your not gonna find too many guys with 69 rbi's 21 hrs and 7, yes 7, walkoff hits and an exceptional glove. Not to mention he was hitting in the 9 spot the majority of the season.

santo=dorf
11-14-2004, 04:46 PM
Another bad example, your not gonna find too many guys with 69 rbi's 21 hrs and 7, yes 7, walkoff hits and an exceptional glove. Not to mention he was hitting in the 9 spot the majority of the season.
Should I even waste my time digging up Randy's credentials?

soltrain21
11-14-2004, 04:48 PM
Should I even waste my time digging up Randy's credentials?



Please do...this argument is ridiculious

nitetrain8601
11-14-2004, 04:50 PM
Should I even waste my time digging up Randy's credentials?
Don't bother. His stats don't even matter. I mean so what if he won the Cy Young a couple of times and a World Series. I bet you he's never pitched in 5 straight days while the incomparable Joe Crede has played in consecutive days many many times.

Joe Crede/Willie Harris/Jose Hernandez>>>>>>>>Randy Johnson.

I can't believe people want to pay a guy who only plays once every 5 days.

SoxxoS
11-14-2004, 04:51 PM
This seventh page of this thread is slowing inching its way to the worst thread in the history of WSI.

beckett21
11-14-2004, 04:53 PM
Another bad example, your not gonna find too many guys with 69 rbi's 21 hrs and 7, yes 7, walkoff hits and an exceptional glove. Not to mention he was hitting in the 9 spot the majority of the season.
There is a good reason that Joe Crede was batting in the 9 spot most of the season.

Because there is no 10-spot. :redneck

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 04:57 PM
It's unbelievable that people value Kendall and Hairston and Frankie C over a guy like Randy Johnson.
Isnt this how this all started? When i said people who played every five days if reffered to them, not crede. (ANYWAYZ, crede didnt play everyday eathier but that is irrelavent)

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 05:00 PM
A line up of

Kendall
Hairston
Lee
Thomas
Everett
Rowand
Gload
Crede
Uribe

is going to win alot more games that a line up of

Harris
Rowand
Lee
Thomas
Evertt
Gload
Crede
Uribe
Davis

With Johnson pitching.

nitetrain8601
11-14-2004, 05:08 PM
I honestly do not think Hairston and Kendall would help the Sox more over Randy Johnson. Randy Johnson would easily win 20 games with this team. With Garcia and Buehrle locked for 15, that's 50 games between them. Throw in Contreras who probably would win at least 14 games and that's 64 games already. While I think Hairston is decent, he is no way a player you take over Johnson, especially when you need a pitcher and Kendall at his price is wayyyyyy overpaid. The Pirates won't eat his salary unless they get an Aaron Rowand type guy back(cheap and could produce).

Shingotime!!
11-14-2004, 05:20 PM
especially when you need a pitcher and Kendall at his price is wayyyyyy overpaid. Your right, we need a pitcher, so why give up Garland and Konerko for Randy Johnson. Konerkos #'s are going to help win way more that 20 game's. And if you dont think a legit leadoff man is gona help you win alot of games your crazy. And since when was Contreas gona win 14 game's? If we somehow got Johnson with out giving up Garland, Rowand, McCarthy, im all for it and thats not going to happen so lets get realistic.

nitetrain8601
11-14-2004, 05:32 PM
Your right, we need a pitcher, so why give up Garland and Konerko for Randy Johnson. Konerkos #'s are going to help win way more that 20 game's. And if you dont think a legit leadoff man is gona help you win alot of games your crazy. And since when was Contreas gona win 14 game's? If we somehow got Johnson with out giving up Garland, Rowand, McCarthy, im all for it and thats not going to happen so lets get realistic.
Garland has shown nothing. And I believe the Sox have enough offense. Look at the past 4 years. We've lead or been 2nd in the league for HR's and near the top for runs, but haven't won except for 2001 because we had no pitching. I'm done with the longball which what Konerko is good for(only at home really too). Konerko also GB's into alot of rally-killing outs. He really doesn't do much on the road either. Contreras will win 14 games without the pressure of playing in NY on his back. Plus he finally has his family together and doesn't have much to worry about. He'll beat the teams he should(Royal's of the league) and that will be enough for 14 wins. I also don't think we need a Johnson for Garland and Konerko if that's not good enough. You could get Vasquez and probably a backup IF for Konerko. Or Konerko for Vasquez and some money.

kittle42
11-14-2004, 05:44 PM
Your right....game's...game's?
Yikes.

hitlesswonder
11-14-2004, 05:49 PM
Garland has shown nothing. And I believe the Sox have enough offense....I also don't think we need a Johnson for Garland and Konerko if that's not good enough. You could get Vasquez and probably a backup IF for Konerko. Or Konerko for Vasquez and some money.I pretty much agree with this. I do think that Garland is a mediocre but valuable pitcher ( he was in the top 30 in the AL for ERA and quality starts). I think we saw how difficult it can be to dig up a semi-competent SP last season. If the Sox do trade him, they would need to get 2 SP to really be competitive next season IMO. But there's nothing wrong with trading him. Konerko and Garland for Johnson would be a done deal to me. I think Konerko is good, but finding a bat at 1B that produces an .800 OPS shouldn't be real tough. He might not produce 40 HR, but he would also be cheaper than $9 million.

And I don't get what people see in Hairston. He was having a good year last year, but his career stats aren't better than what Harris did last season (in fact, their seasons at age 26 are almost identical). Plus he spends a lot of time on th DL. He's not a bad player, but I don't see why the Sox should give up talent to get him.

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 06:36 PM
There is a good reason that Joe Crede was batting in the 9 spot most of the season.

Because there is no 10-spot. :redneck LMAO!!!

http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/banana.gif http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile_rotate.gif http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/banana.gif

Lip Man 1
11-14-2004, 08:06 PM
I'll be curious to see what (or if) Kenny has a 'plan B' in place. He apparently devoted quite a bit of time trying to make a quick strike and felt confident he'd be getting Omar. This has to be a shock to him.

Lip

SoxxoS
11-14-2004, 08:08 PM
I'll be curious to see what (or if) Kenny has a 'plan B' in place. He apparently devoted quite a bit of time trying to make a quick strike and felt confident he'd be getting Omar. This has to be a shock to him.

Lip

I think this is kind of a good shock. You can't give a guy a 12 million dollar, 3 year contract to a 38 year-old person not named Bonds. Rediculous. Glad he didn't overreact.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2004, 08:12 PM
I'm not saying that the Sox should or should not have made the offer. My point was Kenny seemed to be concentrating a lot on Visquel confident that he was going to get him.

Since he hasn't are the Sox now behind the eight ball when it comes to other players who may have already been approached and courted by other teams? (and I don't mean just shortstop)

Lip

dickallen15
11-14-2004, 08:56 PM
Its rather apparent the list of players dying to play for Ozzie is a lot shorter than KW and OG thought.

Mickster
11-14-2004, 09:18 PM
Could it be that KW talked to the Pirates and the likelyhood of getting Kendall seems good so he held off on having Omar sign a contract?

I am a FOKW and even I think that he's quick to the draw (sometimes to his detriment) when he sees something that he wants. If Kenny really wanted Omar, he'd be in pinstripes. Albeit with a $15M/3yr contract.....

duke of dorwood
11-14-2004, 10:15 PM
The point is-they couldnt even get a real low-end FA they wanted. They low ball EVERYONE. EXCEPT TICKET BUYERS

I HATE WINTERS WITH THIS TEAM

MRKARNO
11-14-2004, 10:24 PM
The point is-they couldnt even get a real low-end FA they wanted.
The couldnt stand the thought of paying 5 million a year for three years for a guy who is in the twilight of his career and was never, except for in 1999, worth more than 5 million a year. Have you seen his last three years? 2004 was pretty good, but 2002 and 2003 are not worth 5 mil. Vizquel would have been a nice addition at about a 2 year 6-7 million dollar contract. When I started hearing 8 million, I felt that it was getting to be too much. 3 years is clearly too much in terms of time.

hitlesswonder
11-14-2004, 11:18 PM
The point is-they couldnt even get a real low-end FA they wanted. They low ball EVERYONE. EXCEPT TICKET BUYERS

I HATE WINTERS WITH THIS TEAMI think Williams is to be commended for not overpaying for Vizquel. If he offered 10 million, he wasn't lowballing anybody. Rex even posted that the offer was more than he thought Vizquel would get (or Vizquel thought he would get), and it sounds to me like he would know. Williams simply got outbid, and it's not like getting Vizquel was the move that would make or break the 2005 Sox (IMO).

bc2k
11-14-2004, 11:21 PM
Not to mention he was hitting in the 9 spot the majority of the season.
Not true.

bc2k
11-14-2004, 11:27 PM
I think Konerko is good, but finding a bat at 1B that produces an .800 OPS shouldn't be real tough. They might not produce 40 HR, but they would also be cheaper than $9 million.
Grammar popo: The word "they" refers to more than one person. As you said, Konerko's potential replacement would be one man, "a bat," and one man can't be referred to as "they."

So your last line should read like this: "He might not produce 40 HR, but he would also be cheaper than $9million."

I usually stay out of the grammar discussions but that mistake is a pet peeve of mine.

hitlesswonder
11-14-2004, 11:46 PM
Grammar popo: The word "they" refers to more than one person. As you said, Konerko's potential replacement would be one man, "a bat," and one man can't be referred to as "they."

So your last line should read like this: "He might not produce 40 HR, but he would also be cheaper than $9million."

I usually stay out of the grammar discussions but that mistake is a pet peeve of mine.
You'll be happy, I guess, to know I edited the post and corrected the grammar. To be honest, I was a little annoyed at being corrected at first, but then it occurred to me that somone had actually read something I posted. And that's pretty cool, I think. When are the admins going to get a grammar checker integrated with the board anyway?:smile:

Lip Man 1
11-14-2004, 11:49 PM
From Dave Van Dyke's story in the Tribune:

"Vizquel was expected to join his fellow Venezuelan, Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, in Chicago and become the leadoff hitter as the Sox began their retooling with an early big splash. Instead he signed with the Giants for three years at $12.25 million, an astonishing salary for a 37-year-old. The Sox were thought to have offered at least two years and about $8 million. Other free-agent shortstops are available, but none bring Vizquel's qualities. He's a leadoff hitter with Gold Glove defense who can steal bases and be a team leader with his boundless energy. It was exactly what the Sox thought they needed."

"Sox general manager Ken Williams, who did not return telephone calls Sunday, has mentioned that holdovers Jose Uribe can play shortstop and Willie Harris second base, while Harris and Aaron Rowand could share leadoff duties."

"But there is a lot of off-season left for the Sox to rewrite their plans, which also do not include free-agent right fielder Magglio Ordonez. The trouble is, they have several holes to fill as they try to upgrade their on-base percentage and defense: right field, catcher, reliever and now, perhaps, someone else to stop the ball behind an improved pitching staff."

"Clearly, Vizquel's signing comes as a blow to the Sox. The nine-time Gold Glove winner became the first free agent to move to another team when the Giants swooped in. Insiders say the fact that Vizquel lives in Seattle, a short flight from the Bay Area, may have been the deciding factor."

Lip

Rex Hudler
11-15-2004, 12:03 AM
From Dave Van Dyke's story in the Tribune:

"Vizquel was expected to join his fellow Venezuelan, Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, in Chicago and become the leadoff hitter as the Sox began their retooling with an early big splash. Instead he signed with the Giants for three years at $12.25 million, an astonishing salary for a 37-year-old. The Sox were thought to have offered at least two years and about $8 million. Other free-agent shortstops are available, but none bring Vizquel's qualities. He's a leadoff hitter with Gold Glove defense who can steal bases and be a team leader with his boundless energy. It was exactly what the Sox thought they needed."

"Sox general manager Ken Williams, who did not return telephone calls Sunday, has mentioned that holdovers Jose Uribe can play shortstop and Willie Harris second base, while Harris and Aaron Rowand could share leadoff duties."

"But there is a lot of off-season left for the Sox to rewrite their plans, which also do not include free-agent right fielder Magglio Ordonez. The trouble is, they have several holes to fill as they try to upgrade their on-base percentage and defense: right field, catcher, reliever and now, perhaps, someone else to stop the ball behind an improved pitching staff."

"Clearly, Vizquel's signing comes as a blow to the Sox. The nine-time Gold Glove winner became the first free agent to move to another team when the Giants swooped in. Insiders say the fact that Vizquel lives in Seattle, a short flight from the Bay Area, may have been the deciding factor."

Lip
The guaranteed third year was the deciding factor. Omar feels he can and wants to play for three more years. The Giants are offering him that possibility. Going to the NL was not his first choice. However, he feels strongly he has three years left in him.

Jabroni
11-15-2004, 12:05 AM
So what are we going to do with the $5 million?

:reinsy
"Throw it in the pile I guess."MWAHAHAHAHA!!! I don't like to bash JR because it's just too damn easy but that was funny as hell! :tongue:

hitlesswonder
11-15-2004, 12:15 AM
From Dave Van Dyke's story in the Tribune:
"He's a leadoff hitter with Gold Glove defense who can steal bases and be a team leader with his boundless energy. It was exactly what the Sox thought they needed."
Lip
Is it just me, or are the Trib writers lazy? Even I know Vizquel isn't a leadoff hitter, and I'm not paid to know it. I'm guessing Van Dyke hasn't watched or paid attention to any Sox/Tribe games lately.

ChiWhiteSox1337
11-15-2004, 12:19 AM
Is it just me, or are the Trib writers lazy? Even I know Vizquel isn't a leadoff hitter, and I'm not paid to know it. I'm guessing Van Dyke hasn't watched or paid attention to any Sox/Tribe games lately. The guy also referred to Jose Uribe. I guess he's a mixture of Jose Valentin and Juan Uribe. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. I'm not sure though :?:

SoxxoS
11-15-2004, 12:19 AM
He's a leadoff hitter with Gold Glove defense who can steal bases and be a team leader with his boundless energy. It was exactly what the Sox thought they needed."

Nothing like hyperbole.

1. He's a leadoff hitter...yeah, so was Willie Harris. Doesn't mean he was good at it.

2. "Gold Glove defense- Yeah, based on reputation. Still can pick it, but range has diminished. This isn't the Vizquel of 2000. or 2002 for that matter.

3. Who can steal bases-What was he 19 and 6 this year? Not exactly Juan Pierre. You got to think he will be losing another little step.

4. Team leader with boundless energy-That is what the manager is for. Sandy Alomar and Pauly are team leaders too and it didnt' get us crap.

In a perfect world, a 1 year stopgap for 3-4 million. But the Giants went was over the top.

bc2k
11-15-2004, 12:22 AM
You'll be happy, I guess, to know I edited the post and corrected the grammar. To be honest, I was a little annoyed at being corrected at first, but then it occurred to me that somone had actually read something I posted. And that's pretty cool, I think. When are the admins going to get a grammar checker integrated with the board anyway?:smile:
You're right, that does make me happy. :D: My intent wasn't to annoy, it was just a personal pet peeve that I have. :gulp:

hitlesswonder
11-15-2004, 12:33 AM
You're right, that does make me happy. :D: My intent wasn't to annoy, it was just a personal pet peeve that I have. :gulp:
Well, the annoyance was just a knee-jerk reaction. I'm actually happy to be corrected; one of the reasons I'm posting is to improve my writing, as ridiculous as that may seem.

DMarte708
11-15-2004, 12:56 AM
Is it just me, or are the Trib writers lazy? Even I know Vizquel isn't a leadoff hitter, and I'm not paid to know it. I'm guessing Van Dyke hasn't watched or paid attention to any Sox/Tribe games lately.
"Clearly, Vizquel's signing comes as a blow to the Sox"

Tribune writers are not only lazy, but spiteful. They love this Vizquel/San Francisco signing; anything to rip the Sox organization and convince readers this organization is clueless.

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 01:06 AM
"Clearly, Vizquel's signing comes as a blow to the Sox"

Tribune writers are not only lazy, but spiteful. They love this Vizquel/San Francisco signing; anything to rip the Sox organization and convince readers this organization is clueless.Why do you disagree? I think it is a blow to the Sox. Whether or not you liked the idea of signing Vizquel, the Sox did. They had Vizquel as their #1 shortstop and as the first signing they wanted to get done. They thought that between Ozzie being here and the contract they were willing to offer, it would be a done deal. But they failed to bring him in even though many considered it almost a done deal. I consider that a blow to the Sox.

JB98
11-15-2004, 02:15 AM
"Clearly, Vizquel's signing comes as a blow to the Sox"

Tribune writers are not only lazy, but spiteful. They love this Vizquel/San Francisco signing; anything to rip the Sox organization and convince readers this organization is clueless.
Hey, if the shoe fits....

I'm glad we didn't sign Vizquel. There's no question we need another middle infielder, but there's no justification for overpaying a guy that age. I'm not excited about KW's attempts to acquire aging veterans. I'd rather see us acquire some younger players who could help us over a period of years. There are too many holes in this roster to think we can sign enough stopgap veterans to contend in 2005.

NWSox
11-15-2004, 02:49 AM
There are too many holes in this roster to think we can sign enough stopgap veterans to contend in 2005.
I agree. Competing in the market for big name free agents is a losing proposition for the White Sox. This isn't the NFL, where the salary cap produces bargains. The price of any player with value is bid up by the teams with money, and, whether the number is $65M or $75M, the Sox are on a budget. This team needs to build around its existing talent and some younger acquisitions. I know this is heresy around here, but just once I would like to see KW be a seller rather than a buyer.

CHIsoxNation
11-15-2004, 02:57 AM
I must admit, I was a little sad to read on ESPN's bottome line that Omar signed with the Giants but we all know Kenny, he will pull off something. I don't even think the shortstop position being filled at this point is a big issue. I like the fact that they are building around defense and pitching(the right way) but signing someone at short when he is at the end of his career seems like a waste to me when you have someone with the talent of Juan Uribe or Wilson Valdez waiting in the wings. Although, I really wouldn't mind seeing Renteria on the southside!

JKryl
11-15-2004, 08:54 AM
Well, I would guess this means that the Sox supposed offer had a team option, rather than a player option. The Giants stepped up with a guaranteed 3rd year, and Omar preferred to have that guaranteed 3rd year.

Man, if he signs there, what next? Please, Kenny, NO Christian Guzman!
It could be worse, can you say Royce Clayton?

duke of dorwood
11-15-2004, 09:54 AM
Just be prepared for another "Cliff Politte" type off-season. He's already accepting the Uribe /Harris infield combo-a bad sign

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 10:17 AM
"Clearly, Vizquel's signing comes as a blow to the Sox"

Tribune writers are not only lazy, but spiteful. They love this Vizquel/San Francisco signing; anything to rip the Sox organization and convince readers this organization is clueless.
What's interesting to me is that the Trib had been reporting the Vizquel signing as imminent with a $10mil/2-yr+option deal. As soon as SF signed him for $12/3, the report becomes "at least" $8/2......why the change, unless they just want to give the indication "Sox cheaped out again"?:angry:

(Pulls off latex mask, turns out to be Hangar)

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 10:18 AM
I'd rather see us acquire some younger players who could help us over a period of years.
Do you have any in mind that a)are free agents and b)aren't going to command gigantic $$$ that hamstring the org in making other improvements?

mweflen
11-15-2004, 10:19 AM
If Vizquel signed with SF for less (which seems to be the case, at least given the talk of 2/$10 plus option), it must be because he feels they are a better contender. He's played us 19 games per year for years. He must know we're perennial non-contenders past July.

JRIG
11-15-2004, 10:22 AM
If Vizquel signed with SF for less (which seems to be the case, at least given the talk of 2/$10 plus option), it must be because he feels they are a better contender. He's played us 19 games per year for years. He must know we're perennial non-contenders past July.
Or...he wanted the extra third year guaranteed instead of the option, which the Sox almost certainly would not have exercised...as he would be 40 that year.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 10:25 AM
Or...he wanted the extra third year guaranteed instead of the option, which the Sox almost certainly would not have exercised...as he would be 40 that year.
I agree this was probably a factor... but I have to begin wondering whether there is a bad reputation around the league which hinders free agent signings. Maybe that's just Standard Sox Fan Bitterness talking :rolleyes:

Justafan
11-15-2004, 10:25 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again, top tier free agents want no part of this team with Reinsdorf and Williams running the show. I did not like Vizquel's price tag to begin with, that said, what we are seeing is players talking to players about not going to play for this team.

Discount what I said if you wish.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-15-2004, 10:29 AM
The deal the Giants offered to Vizquel ought to end all doubt about whether the price of flesh isn't still going up in Major League Baseball. Just because an aging veteran of Vizquel's talent wasn't worth $12 million last year doesn't mean he isn't worth $12 million now. Think about this next time you read another post around here where someone offers their opinion about who isn't worth what. These know-nothings never take into acount salary inflation.

Here's a prediction that will set on fire the hair of the know-nothings. Not only is an aging veteran of Vizquel's talent worth $12 million in 2005, but a similar ballplayer will be worth $15 million by 2007.

No worries. Our payroll is going up, so we can aspire to finish second to Minnesota again. So I'm told.
:cool:

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 10:32 AM
If Vizquel signed with SF for less (which seems to be the case, at least given the talk of 2/$10 plus option), it must be because he feels they are a better contender. He's played us 19 games per year for years. He must know we're perennial non-contenders past July.He's also from Seattle... he could have done it in part to be closer to home and guarantee he'll be playing for three more years, at least in theory. Who wouldn't want to get paid a few million to play a game until you're 41?

I don't understand what the big problem is with Guzman... he's a decent hitter, though his OBP could be a bit higher, and plays solid defense. Obviously doesn't bring the HRs of Valentin, but isn't it table-setting, timely hits and defense we need more of now than HRs? I like the idea of bringing Guzman at the right price, but I would also be OK to see Uribe and Valdez split time at short, and if Valdez turns out to be the real deal, put Uribe at second or third. Is anybody talking about a price for Womack? I like the idea of bringing him in at 2B, but importantly, he can play short, as well... he started at short for the D-Backs in 2002, and while I'm sure he's lost a little range, it's an option.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 10:36 AM
''I've been in playoffs and World Series, and just being on a contending team is something really special,'' Vizquel said. ''This will give me a chance to be on one of those teams again, with the kind of talent the Giants have. I'm really excited. It didn't take too long to make up my mind.'' http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-sox15.html

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 10:41 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-sox15.html
That's basically boilerplate. Who ever heard of a player signing and saying "I'm just so happy to get the extra guaranteed $2mil, I'm all about the benjamins and SF stepped up".

More guaranteed years, more guaranteed dollars. That's all you need to know in terms of his decision.

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 10:42 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-sox15.html
Like he's going to say, "Hey, I just wanted to be part of a one-man team that perennially chokes before making it to the Series."

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 10:42 AM
The deal the Giants offered to Vizquel ought to end all doubt about whether the price of flesh isn't still going up in Major League Baseball. Just because an aging veteran of Vizquel's talent wasn't worth $12 million last year doesn't mean he isn't worth $12 million now. Think about this next time you read another post around here where someone opines who isn't worth what. These know-nothings never take into acount salary inflation.

Here's a prediction that will set on fire the hair of the know-nothings. Not only is an aging veteran of Vizquel's talent worth $12 million in 2005, but a similar ballplayer will be worth $15 million by 2007.

No worries. Our payroll is going up, so we can aspire to finish second to Minnesota again. So I'm told.
:cool:Just because he GOT $12M, doesn't make him WORTH $12M. (Or are Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Chan Ho Park, et al worth what they're being paid?) Besides, what he's worth will depend on the team. A given player will be worth more to some teams than to others. It depends on what they have/need, and on their priorities. And it's the issue of priorities that make me say NO to Vizquel. The Sox top three priorities are/should be:

1. Starting pitching
2. Relief pitching
3. Plugging any gaping holes created filling #1 and #2

SS is way down the list. With a limited budget, the Sox need to concentrate their resources on pitching. Whether someone else is willing to pay Vizquel $12M is irrelevant. It's not the best use of $12M for the Sox.

JRIG
11-15-2004, 10:43 AM
I don't understand what the big problem is with Guzman... he's a decent hitter, though his OBP could be a bit higher, and plays solid defense. Obviously doesn't bring the HRs of Valentin, but isn't it table-setting, timely hits and defense we need more of now than HRs?
Well, to begin with...he's not a decent hitter. Valentin has had a higher OBP than Guzman in two of the last three seasons. Guzman has very little power and doesn't steal bases at a very good clip. Defensively, unless you are looking solely at the "E" category, Valentin seems to be better. Much better range and a stronger arm.

That's the big problem with Guzman. Not to mention he'll probably be asking for Vizquel-tupe money now.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 10:44 AM
Like he's going to say, "Hey, I just wanted to be part of a one-man team that perennially chokes before making it to the Series.""I'm just happy to be here and I hope I can help the team."

wdelaney72
11-15-2004, 10:48 AM
This is a no brainer. SF gave Vizquel a guaranteed $2 million more. I was OK with him coming for 2 years, but Kenny did the right thing. I highly doubt he has three quality years left in the tank.

This could be a blessing in disguise. I'd be much happier with Uribe at SS and upgrade 2B. Womack would be good, so would a trade for Hairston. As far as the Todd Walker suggestion goes, I'll take Mark Grudzielanek over Walker.

We have options people, the future is still bright.

Even if Kenny signs Christian Guzman, it's still an upgrade over Jose.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-15-2004, 10:50 AM
Just because he GOT $12M, doesn't make him WORTH $12M.... Tell your story walking, No. 2. Vizquel GOT $12 million and the market for comparable ballplayers is being pegged off his $12 million. That means Jose Valentin's price is going up, and Christian Guzman's, and all the other mediocrities who aren't worth what they're asking for, either.

The sooner you guys just start dealing with the reality of the situation, the better off we'll all be. Besides, in two years a Vizquel-like ballplayer will be worth $15 million and all the whining and crying in the world from you isn't going to change this fact.

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 10:52 AM
Well, to begin with...he's not a decent hitter. Valentin has had a higher OBP than Guzman in two of the last three seasons. Guzman has very little power and doesn't steal bases at a very good clip. Defensively, unless you are looking solely at the "E" category, Valentin seems to be better. Much better range and a stronger arm.

That's the big problem with Guzman. Not to mention he'll probably be asking for Vizquel-tupe money now.
Like I said, I think Guzman is a passable upgrade for what we want in a shortstop: decent defense, consistent hitting, and he has room and time to improve. Valentin, for all 30 HRs last year, had a .287 OBP, and once he did get on base, was one of the worst baserunners on the team. That said, SS is probably not the best place to be spending money, and if Valdez/Uribe can do a decent job, we look at other options for leadoff hitting and focus on pitching.
I still think we're going to sign Guzman, though... just a hunch.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 10:53 AM
Of course most of sthe statement Vizquel made is boilerplate... but the key words to my mind are "to be with one of those teams again"

Are we "one of those" teams? Frankly, no. I think given completely identical contracts, Vizquel still would have chosen SF. He knows we're losers, and given our current management, aren't likely to be anything but losers for a long while (certainly longer than the remainder of his career).

I know I for one would rather perennially choke before the world series than perennially choke before September.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 10:55 AM
I guess the question now really is this: how little will Jose sign for? 3 mil? 4 mil?

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 10:59 AM
Tell your story walking, No. 2. Vizquel GOT $12 million and the market for comparable ballplayers is being pegged off his $12 million. That means Jose Valentin's price is going up, and Christian Guzman's, and all the other mediocrities who aren't worth what they're asking for, either.

The sooner you guys just start dealing with the reality of the situation, the better off we'll all be. Besides, in two years a Vizquel-like ballplayer will be worth $15 million and all the whining and crying in the world from you isn't going to change this fact.Soooo...then I guess Chan Ho Park must be worth $13,879,164, because that's what he's getting.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-15-2004, 11:04 AM
Soooo...then I guess Chan Ho Park must be worth $13,879,164, because that's what he's getting.
So how much did Don Drysdale ever get from the Dodgers? And he and Sandy Koufax held out for an entire spring training camp, didn't they?

Of course Park isn't "worth" $13 million. He gets paid $13 million because that's where the market is today, and the market is going HIGHER. The next Chan Ho Park will get $15 million. Stop complaining.

I'm suggesting you stop losing sleep fretting over somebody else staying out late having a good time. The point you're trying to make is moot.

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 11:16 AM
I know I for one would rather perennially choke before the world series than perennially choke before September.
Touche... until the Sox prove to us and to the rest of baseball they're serious about contending, players will pass us up in favor of San Fran, Boston and the Yankees.

I didn't really want up to pay for Vizquel anyway, and the more I think about it, the more resigned I am to an infield of Crede, Valdez and Uribe, along with whoever we end up with at first. if that's the option, I hope we can hang on to Konerko.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 11:24 AM
Price vs Value

What a player will cost is not the same as what he is worth. The key is to get a player at a price you can afford that will maximize the value he can deliver to you. Avoiding the Chan Ho Parks is key. I liked Vizquel at 2/8. I'd like him a bit less at 3/13. But he'd still likley have provided good value in the short term as compared to a Nomar for 4/48.

KW has to find a plan B that will enable him to maximize value within the budget he has been given to work with. Its going to be an interesting next few months.

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 11:29 AM
Price vs Value

What a player will cost is not the same as what he is worth. The key is to get a player at a price you can afford that will maximize the value he can deliver to you. Avoiding the Chan Ho Parks is key. I liked Vizquel at 2/8. I'd like him a bit less at 3/13. But he'd still likley have provided good value in the short term as compared to a Nomar for 4/48.

KW has to find a plan B that will enable him to maximize value within the budget he has been given to work with. Its going to be an interesting next few months.
And the key is, just like Nike shoes and Oakley sunglasses, you're paying for the name. The Sox are after names like Vizquel and Guzman because they aren't the big names available and could perhaps provide more value than, say, a Nomar or Renteria.

Although I would love to have Edgar for a few years for the right price.

MisterB
11-15-2004, 11:36 AM
An article on the Vizquel signing (http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~10835~2536359,00.html)in the Oakland Trib has this almost comical quote from Felipe Alou:


"I believe our fans are going to be watching a shortstop in a Giant uniform they haven't seen in I don't know how long. Maybe since Royce Clayton."

:mg:

jabrch
11-15-2004, 11:39 AM
And the key is, just like Nike shoes and Oakley sunglasses, you're paying for the name. The Sox are after names like Vizquel and Guzman because they aren't the big names available and could perhaps provide more value than, say, a Nomar or Renteria.

Although I would love to have Edgar for a few years for the right price.
Well - it is more than just the name. Sure the brand name represents something, but there is a quality difference also. Buy the 3/15$ sunglasses at Walgreens. They don't hold a candle to my Oakley lenses. Is it a 100X difference? That's debatable.

With what is estimated to be 70-75mm to spend, and needs including at least 1 if not 2 SPs, Rentiria is hard to expect. I'd love to see it - but we have other needs. The value we'd have gotten from Omar might have offset some of what we needed. I have a bad feeling that the next options will be far worse. (Guzman, Gonzalez or Jose)

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 11:42 AM
An article on the Vizquel signing (http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~10835~2536359,00.html)in the Oakland Trib has this almost comical quote from Felipe Alou:


:mg:
The legendary Royce Clayton.

Hoffdaddydmb
11-15-2004, 11:42 AM
no guzman please. I'll take valdez anyday

mjharrison72
11-15-2004, 11:46 AM
Well - it is more than just the name. Sure the brand name represents something, but there is a quality difference also. Buy the 3/15$ sunglasses at Walgreens. They don't hold a candle to my Oakley lenses. Is it a 100X difference? That's debatable.

With what is estimated to be 70-75mm to spend, and needs including at least 1 if not 2 SPs, Rentiria is hard to expect. I'd love to see it - but we have other needs. The value we'd have gotten from Omar might have offset some of what we needed. I have a bad feeling that the next options will be far worse. (Guzman, Gonzalez or Jose)
Of course some quality comes with the name... I'm just saying from a true "value" standpoint, the real value comes in picking up lesser-known players and hoping they will exceed expectations rather than dropping a wad of cash on the big names and risking that they'll underperform.

Not sure where people think the Sox need two new SPs... but that's a different thread.

What, exactly, is the word on Wilson Valdez... can the kid play? Are we smoking something to think he's cut out to start at short?

santo=dorf
11-15-2004, 11:47 AM
Vizquel earns $2.5 million in 2005, then $2.4 million in 2006 and 2007 with $1.75 million of his $3.75 million signing bonus deferred to 2008 and 2009.
That third year HAS to be the only reason why he went out to SF. A lot of you were :whiner: about how much money he would make if he signed with the Sox, but look at how is contract is structured with the Giants.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 11:53 AM
Of course some quality comes with the name... I'm just saying from a true "value" standpoint, the real value comes in picking up lesser-known players and hoping they will exceed expectations rather than dropping a wad of cash on the big names and risking that they'll underperform.

Not sure where people think the Sox need two new SPs... but that's a different thread.

What, exactly, is the word on Wilson Valdez... can the kid play? Are we smoking something to think he's cut out to start at short?
I agree with your first point.

2nd SP may be needed if Garland gets moved to get the #1 (a discussed in the RJ dialogues?)

jabrch
11-15-2004, 11:54 AM
That third year HAS to be the only reason why he went out to SF. A lot of you were :whiner: about how much money he would make if he signed with the Sox, but look at how is contract is structured with the Giants.
Wait a second...you mean there was deferred money in the deal...and Vizquel took it? I thought only JR was evil enough to use deferred money to try and get a player? And I was told how evil the deferred money is - and how that's a reason why nobody wants to come here...

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 12:23 PM
Price vs Value

What a player will cost is not the same as what he is worth. The key is to get a player at a price you can afford that will maximize the value he can deliver to you. Avoiding the Chan Ho Parks is key. I liked Vizquel at 2/8. I'd like him a bit less at 3/13. But he'd still likley have provided good value in the short term as compared to a Nomar for 4/48.

KW has to find a plan B that will enable him to maximize value within the budget he has been given to work with. Its going to be an interesting next few months.Value IS the key. You want to maximize the value you get for the $$ you spend. And the only measure of value is how much the player helps the team to win. But that's going to depend on the specific team's needs. A player's value is specific to a team. If a team already has a good SS, Vizquel's value to that team will be less. My problem with the Sox signing Vizquel is that they needed pitching more than a new SS, i.e. they would get more value spending the same money on the starting rotation or bullpen help than on Vizquel. Price is dictated by the market. Value is not.

nodiggity59
11-15-2004, 12:27 PM
That third year HAS to be the only reason why he went out to SF. A lot of you were :whiner: about how much money he would make if he signed with the Sox, but look at how is contract is structured with the Giants.
For all we know KWs offer was structured similarly w/out the 3rd year.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 12:38 PM
Value IS the key. You want to maximize the value you get for the $$ you spend. And the only measure of value is how much the player helps the team to win. But that's going to depend on the specific team's needs. A player's value is specific to a team. If a team already has a good SS, Vizquel's value to that team will be less. My problem with the Sox signing Vizquel is that they needed pitching more than a new SS, i.e. they would get more value spending the same money on the starting rotation or bullpen help than on Vizquel. Price is dictated by the market. Value is not.
Do you think signing Vizquel for 2/8 would have restricted us from getting another good starter? My gut feeling is that even if KW was able to make Vizquel happen - that he still completely plans on bidding for one of the FA pitchers or on trading for a #1/#2 guy. I dont think for a second that Vizquel would have been in place of a SP.

Rex Hudler
11-15-2004, 12:39 PM
That third year HAS to be the only reason why he went out to SF. A lot of you were :whiner: about how much money he would make if he signed with the Sox, but look at how is contract is structured with the Giants.The 3rd year WAS the difference. Omar preferred to play in the AL. All things being equal, he would have signed with the Sox. But Omar feels he still has three years left and that is how much longer he wants to play. The SF deal gives him that opportunity. It was never strictly about the money with Omar.

What's interesting to me is that the Trib had been reporting the Vizquel signing as imminent with a $10mil/2-yr+option deal. As soon as SF signed him for $12/3, the report becomes "at least" $8/2......why the change, unless they just want to give the indication "Sox cheaped out again"?It is unsure exactly what the Sox final offer to Omar was, but 2 years and $10 million were what Omar's agent was asking for, that is where those numbers came from. They all became a moot point when SF offered three years guaranteed.

Tell your story walking, No. 2. Vizquel GOT $12 million and the market for comparable ballplayers is being pegged off his $12 million. That means Jose Valentin's price is going up, and Christian Guzman's,It may play out that way, but I don't necessarily agree that it has to or will. Omar was in demand by at least two teams who bid against each other that drove the price up. Someone like Guzman or Jose for example may not fall into that situation. The market for them may be more limited. For example, a team like the Sox could choose to take a step up and enter into the higher market and go after Nomar or Cabrera or may just decide to stick with Uribe and seek another infielder (2B or utility). The Twins could decide to go with youth in Jason Bartlett rather than pay for Jose or try and resign Guzman. If those things happen, the market shrinks for Jose and Guzman, and their market value goes down, not up.

The market for the Nomars, Edgars and Cabreras looks to involve different teams, which means the demand will be totally different. As previously mentioned, if the Sox enter the fray, then that could change things as additional teams will likely drive the price up.

But just because one SS got more than expected, it does not automatically mean they all will get more money.

Rex Hudler
11-15-2004, 12:41 PM
Do you think signing Vizquel for 2/8 would have restricted us from getting another good starter? My gut feeling is that even if KW was able to make Vizquel happen - that he still completely plans on bidding for one of the FA pitchers or on trading for a #1/#2 guy. I dont think for a second that Vizquel would have been in place of a SP.
I agree. Omar was just a piece of their total plan for the offseason.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 12:47 PM
Do you think signing Vizquel for 2/8 would have restricted us from getting another good starter? My gut feeling is that even if KW was able to make Vizquel happen - that he still completely plans on bidding for one of the FA pitchers or on trading for a #1/#2 guy. I dont think for a second that Vizquel would have been in place of a SP.Absolutely. $4M is $4M. It's the difference between a budget starter and Randy Johnson. Or they could get a pretty decent reliever for that money. If, after getting another top-notch starter and some bullpen help, they had $4M left over, then fine, go sign Vizquel. But I don't think there's money to spare. In the end, it's $4M less that they're able to spend on what I view as a higher priority need.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 01:24 PM
It's the difference between a budget starter and Randy Johnson.
Huh? Johnson is 4mm more expensive than a BUDGET starter? are you kidding?


If, after getting another top-notch starter and some bullpen help, they had $4M left over, then fine, go sign Vizquel.

He'd have been gone by then.


it's $4M less that they're able to spend on what I view as a higher priority need.

What's the higher priority need? I'm assuming there was still plans to get a #1 or a #2 pitcher. I don't view a SS and a #2 hitter as a low priority. Unless your plan was to move Uribe to SS and play Willie every day at 2B - or something like that.

SoxxoS
11-15-2004, 01:29 PM
Although I would rather have Garcia...it would be nice for Morse to be an OPTION this coming spring training.

jabrch
11-15-2004, 01:35 PM
Although I would rather have Garcia...it would be nice for Morse to be an OPTION this coming spring training.
MORSE wasn't going to be an option. He was being moved to 1B cuz he was not able to play SS. He had no future in our organization as a SS.

Ol' No. 2
11-15-2004, 01:39 PM
Huh? Johnson is 4mm more expensive than a BUDGET starter? are you kidding?RJ will cost $10.5M for 2005. He'll be A LOT better than anyone you can get for $6M.
What's the higher priority need? I'm assuming there was still plans to get a #1 or a #2 pitcher. I don't view a SS and a #2 hitter as a low priority. Unless your plan was to move Uribe to SS and play Willie every day at 2B - or something like that.I have no real problem with Uribe and Harris. Defensively they're solid. And if you want a leadoff hitter, most of the replacements I've heard suggested aren't really any better, or at least not enough to get excited about. If you really want a leadoff hitter, stop screwing around with these guys and get Jason Kendall. He'll only cost another $1M or two more (assuming Pitts. will toss in some cash), and he gets on base at a .400 clip instead of .340.

Lip Man 1
11-15-2004, 01:41 PM
Jabrch (and others):

The question that needs to be asked is that when the Sox offer deferred money, why won't anybody take it?

Your sarcastic comment about Uncle Jerry ignors this important point.

What has gone on behind the scenes, what have agents been saying about the organization that has prevented 'creative' Kenny Williams from closing the deal with any free agents he has offered this 'alternative' to?

Nobody is debating the fact that other teams offer deferred money, teams like the Yankees, Braves, D-backs, Giants. However you (and others) have never offered one 'reason' for why when the Sox offer it, NO player has accepted it.

I'd be curious to hear an explination for this. What other teams do or don't do is irrelevant to the White Sox situation and their failure to get any free agents to bite when they offer the same thing.

Lip

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 01:59 PM
Jabrch (and others):

The question that needs to be asked is that when the Sox offer deferred money, why won't anybody take it?

Your sarcastic comment about Uncle Jerry ignors this important point.

What has gone on behind the scenes, what have agents been saying about the organization that has prevented 'creative' Kenny Williams from closing the deal with any free agents he has offered this 'alternative' to?

Nobody is debating the fact that other teams offer deferred money, teams like the Yankees, Braves, D-backs, Giants. However you (and others) have never offered one 'reason' for why when the Sox offer it, NO player has accepted it.

I'd be curious to hear an explination for this. What other teams do or don't do is irrelevant to the White Sox situation and their failure to get any free agents to bite when they offer the same thing.

Lip
It's quite simple. Other teams are offering MORE money, and players are taking it. It has nothing to do with the Sox having deferred money and no one wanting it. If the Sox come out with more money than other teams are offering and it includes the PV of deferrals, there won't be any problem wiht players accepting it.

You can debate about whether or not the Sox should extend themselves to the level of beating the other offers or whether or not the player's worth it (i.e. whether that $$$ can be better used elsewhere). But until you can point to a player who went elsewhere for the same or less money, claims that players are avoiding the Sox are pretty ludicrous. The best you can say is that they're not willing to take less to come here.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 02:22 PM
If you really want a leadoff hitter, stop screwing around with these guys and get Jason Kendall.
Best suggestion I've heard all day. I can live with Uribe/Harris if Kendall is leading off.

mweflen
11-15-2004, 02:27 PM
oh, BTW...


:tomatoaward

sendimjoey
11-15-2004, 03:14 PM
The sooner you guys just start dealing with the reality of the situation, the better off we'll all be. Besides, in two years a Vizquel-like ballplayer will be worth $15 million and all the whining and crying in the world from you isn't going to change this fact.This is not necessarily true. The average salary in 2004 was lower than it was in 2003 (see story: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1777832). Every year, some free agents will see big raises, but it's not a given any more that salaries will rise every year. In December, dozens of arbitration-eligible players are likely to be cut loose because their current teams don't want to overpay in arbitration for middling performance. These players can be great bargains.

For years, the players association said there was no need for a salary cap, because teams could choose to control their spending. Maybe the owners are finally listening.

I hope the Sox will let Juan Uribe play shortstop and put the Vizquel money toward another starting pitcher.

Jjav829
11-15-2004, 03:27 PM
I don't think this has been posted yet, but if it has, o well. :smile:

"I thought I was going to be a Chicago White Sox until late Friday night," Vizquel said. "But the White Sox's offer was for only two years. The Giants were the only team that offered me a third year. It was very important to me."
Link (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1100514621315473.xml)

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 03:34 PM
I don't think this has been posted yet, but if it has, o well. :smile:


Link (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1100514621315473.xml)
Translation: "I'm hearing bad things about the Sox from players & agents and just don't think they have a chance to win. Coincidentally, the Giants offered more $$$ and more years".

jabrch
11-15-2004, 03:40 PM
Translation: "I'm hearing bad things about the Sox from players & agents and just don't think they have a chance to win. Coincidentally, the Giants offered more $$$ and more years".

Come on Flight...it can't be that simple...

Either JR is cheap - or KW is dumb. Sometimes both are the case.

FarWestChicago
11-15-2004, 04:16 PM
I don't think this has been posted yet, but if it has, o well. :smile:


Link (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1100514621315473.xml)I heard him say that on the radio this morning. But, I'll defer to the FOLip's. I'm sure it was because he hates Reinsy and KW. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif