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Lip Man 1
11-14-2004, 12:55 PM
Submitted for discussion, from Phil Arvia's Sunday column in the Daily Southtown:

"Never mind that Johnson makes $16 million and the Sox aren't likely to substantially increase last year's payroll, or that the Diamondbacks are saying Johnson isn't available.

"After the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs battle over the likes of Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran and Edgar Renteria, might the Sox then sneak in with enough budget room for, say, the likes of a Jon Lieber?

"As we sit here today, that answer would be no," Williams said. "But we might be able to do some things to create flexibility."


Based on past history I guess you can assume Williams is talking about trading other players or getting other teams to pick up salary so that the Sox could fit some pieces into place and stay within the budget restraints. That sounds to me like more of the 'mix and match' philosophy that hasn't done very well the past few seasons based on the underachieving of the club. We'll see... but it would be nice to have a coherent plan in place and to see it through regardless of cost. (i.e. Here's who we want, we are going to get them and NOT have to worry about getting 3rd party teams involved, having other teams coming intro play to eat salary and so on...)

Lip

Win1ForMe
11-14-2004, 01:37 PM
And of course you were all too happy to post it.:rolleyes:

GiveMeSox
11-14-2004, 01:52 PM
Hmm where have i heard that story before??

RKMeibalane
11-14-2004, 02:43 PM
:reinsy

"White Sox Baseball: Some Things Never Change"

CubKilla
11-14-2004, 04:07 PM
And of course you were all too happy to post it.:rolleyes:
What's wrong with posting all the more proof that a Sox fan needs to know that this Organization is a joke?

RKMeibalane
11-14-2004, 04:30 PM
What's wrong with posting all the more proof that a Sox fan needs to know that this Organization is a joke?
Agreed. Reinsdorf is cheap. He's ruining this organization. Why do people have such a problem when other posters point that out?

SEALgep
11-14-2004, 04:33 PM
What's wrong with posting all the more proof that a Sox fan needs to know that this Organization is a joke?I think you may have missed your turn. Wrigley is up North.

voodoochile
11-14-2004, 04:35 PM
Agreed. Reinsdorf is cheap. He's ruining this organization. Why do people have such a problem when other posters point that out?
Because it forces them to confront the reality that Reinsdorf just doesn't care about them at all. It's hard to face up to that fact. It takes real guts to admit you've been conned and that the owner is using you for their own gain.

It's much easier to attack the messanger than it is to hear the ugly message they are delivering...:(:

Wealz
11-14-2004, 04:44 PM
Because it forces them to confront the reality that Reinsdorf just doesn't care about them at all. It's hard to face up to that fact. It takes real guts to admit you've been conned and that the owner is using you for their own gain.

It's much easier to attack the messanger than it is to hear the ugly message they are delivering...:(:
In your estimation which MLB owners care about their fans?

nodiggity59
11-14-2004, 04:45 PM
Because it forces them to confront the reality that Reinsdorf just doesn't care about them at all. It's hard to face up to that fact. It takes real guts to admit you've been conned and that the owner is using you for their own gain.

It's much easier to attack the messanger than it is to hear the ugly message they are delivering...:(:
I disagree. I've confronted the reality time and time and time again. I'm sick of it. The thread informed me of nothing new.

I don't get mad at the messengers b/c of their message, for I agree it is truly ugly. What is upsetting is their incessant desire to constantly remind me of it at every turn, not just in threads dedicated to JRs tyranny but in almost every thread on this message board.

I hate the assertion that just b/c you're sick of hearing people whine about JR that you support him or that you don't know how incompetent he is.

voodoochile
11-14-2004, 04:51 PM
In your estimation which MLB owners care about their fans?
What's his name in Anaheim

John Henry

Steinbrenner

Any other one who consistently does whatever it takes to put a winner on the field year in and year out.

Maybe "care about the fans" is the wrong expression.

"Understand how to run a baseball team"

or

"Truly want to win"

would be better expressions.

voodoochile
11-14-2004, 04:53 PM
I disagree. I've confronted the reality time and time and time again. I'm sick of it. The thread informed me of nothing new.

I don't get mad at the messengers b/c of their message, for I agree it is truly ugly. What is upsetting is their incessant desire to constantly remind me of it at every turn, not just in threads dedicated to JRs tyranny but in almost every thread on this message board.

I hate the assertion that just b/c you're sick of hearing people whine about JR that you support him or that you don't know how incompetent he is.
So why read Lip's posts? I mean you know his perspective. You know how he feels. You know what is coming. Why do you torture yourself?

The other side of that is of course that JR is free to prove us negative posters wrong at any time. He can spend the money, take the risk, build a winner and THEN raise prices... or...

But you've read all of that before. You don't need to hear it again, right? :rolleyes:

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 05:13 PM
I disagree. I've confronted the reality time and time and time again. I'm sick of it. The thread informed me of nothing new.

I don't get mad at the messengers b/c of their message, for I agree it is truly ugly. What is upsetting is their incessant desire to constantly remind me of it at every turn, not just in threads dedicated to JRs tyranny but in almost every thread on this message board.

I hate the assertion that just b/c you're sick of hearing people whine about JR that you support him or that you don't know how incompetent he is. Is anyone else struck by the irony of the whining in these sentiments? "I'm tired of other people whining..."

Hey, being a Sox Fan is not for the squeamish. You want to listen to pie in the sky nonsense, there is a whole "nation" of nimrods eight miles north of 35th & Shields just waiting to add you to their number.

"Wait till Next Year!"

My ass.

Daver
11-14-2004, 05:15 PM
Here's another clue.



The Walrus was Paul.

OEO Magglio
11-14-2004, 05:22 PM
Submitted for discussion, from Phil Arvia's Sunday column in the Daily Southtown:

"Never mind that Johnson makes $16 million and the Sox aren't likely to substantially increase last year's payroll, or that the Diamondbacks are saying Johnson isn't available.

"After the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs battle over the likes of Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran and Edgar Renteria, might the Sox then sneak in with enough budget room for, say, the likes of a Jon Lieber?

"As we sit here today, that answer would be no," Williams said. "But we might be able to do some things to create flexibility."


Based on past history I guess you can assume Williams is talking about trading other players or getting other teams to pick up salary so that the Sox could fit some pieces into place and stay within the budget restraints. That sounds to me like more of the 'mix and match' philosophy that hasn't done very well the past few seasons based on the underachieving of the club. We'll see... but it would be nice to have a coherent plan in place and to see it through regardless of cost. (i.e. Here's who we want, we are going to get them and NOT have to worry about getting 3rd party teams involved, having other teams coming intro play to eat salary and so on...)

Lip

You know what lip.....shut it. There have been articles that said the sox could possibly raise payroll to 75 mill also, why don't we wait to see what happens, stop believing everything you read.

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 05:30 PM
What's wrong with posting all the more proof that a Sox fan needs to know that this Organization is a joke?Nothing. If you're a fan of tediously boring and repetitive. Oh, that's right. You are. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

nodiggity59
11-14-2004, 05:30 PM
You want to listen to pie in the sky nonsense, there is a whole "nation" of nimrods eight miles north of 35th & Shields just waiting to add you to their number.

"Wait till Next Year!"

My ass.
That is part of my whole point. The fact that I am very weary of JR bashers does not mean I support his ownership!! Nor does it mean I think the Sox are a "first calss organization". Maybe you didn't read my post:


I hate the assertion that just b/c you're sick of hearing people whine about JR that you support him or that you don't know how incompetent he is.

Also, don't ever suggest I would change my colors in this town.

The JR bashers need to live with the fact that there are informed people on this board who get tired of thier never ending futile documentation of what most people already know.

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 05:34 PM
The JR bashers need to live with the fact that there are informed people on this board who get tired of thier never ending futile documentation of what most people already know.There's no reasoning with FOLIP's. Unless you post over and over and over every day "I hate JR" you automatically LOVE the current situation. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 05:39 PM
That is part of my whole point. The fact that I am very weary of JR bashers does not mean I support his ownership!! Nor does it mean I think the Sox are a "first calss organization". Maybe you didn't read my post:


I hate the assertion that just b/c you're sick of hearing people whine about JR that you support him or that you don't know how incompetent he is.

Also, don't ever suggest I would change my colors in this town.

The JR bashers need to live with the fact that there are informed people on this board who get tired of thier never ending futile documentation of what most people already know.
Well jeez, if reading a thread is what is hurting your head you can always POST some positive news that gives you your sunshiney outlook. Share the wealth. There are a lot of dark clouds being a Sox Fan.

voodoochile
11-14-2004, 05:40 PM
There's no reasoning with FOLIP's. Unless you post over and over and over every day "I hate JR" you automatically LOVE the current situation. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
:reinsy
"West loves me... he really really loves me." :D:

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 05:46 PM
:reinsy
"West loves me... he really really loves me." :D:Yeah, about as much as this guy:

:dollarbill:

http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/angryfire.gif

CubKilla
11-14-2004, 05:48 PM
Nothing. If you're a fan of tediously boring and repetitive. Oh, that's right. You are. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/rolleyes.gifMisery loves company and I, for one, can't get enough White Sox Organization bashing in. Coming up on 88 years and still counting!

CubKilla
11-14-2004, 05:51 PM
You know what lip.....shut it. There have been articles that said the sox could possibly raise payroll to 75 mill also, why don't we wait to see what happens, stop believing everything you read.
Can we get :bandance: :bandance: :bandance: in teal? :rolleyes:

$75 million is where the payroll should have been 2 seasons ago when $75 million could have won this crap division handily. Instead, JR was making KW "be creative" and trade for douches like Ritchie and Koch.

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 05:52 PM
Misery loves company and I, for one, can't get enough White Sox Organization bashing in.I never noticed that. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/yup.gif

voodoochile
11-14-2004, 05:59 PM
Yeah, about as much as this guy:

:dollarbill:

http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/angryfire.gif
Whew... I didn't get banned... :D:

I'm not a huge hockey fan, but even I have to admit that Wirtz is worse than JR.

FarWestChicago
11-14-2004, 06:15 PM
I'm not a huge hockey fan, but even I have to admit that Wirtz is worse than JR.About the only solace I get with our horrible owners is my Whiner fan employees are now in the same boat. I always tell them John York is McCaskey West. They just groan and agree. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/cool.gif

California Sox
11-14-2004, 06:21 PM
I'm not a huge hockey fan, but even I have to admit that Wirtz is worse than JR.
No one is a huge hockey fan, thanks to Wirtz. My Dad loved the Sox and he loved the Hawks, but by the time my brother and I came along it was too expensive to go see the Hawks and Wirtz wouldn't put it on free TV, so I only followed the Sox. The NHL is close to extinction in large part because of Wirtz. He makes JR seem like Gandhi.

On the subject of this thread, I really don't think JR is the cheapest owner in MLB (look at Glass in KC for instance) but he's not Artie Moreno either. He's been consistently "budget conscious" and he always will be. That's why I believe we have to consistently add cheap players from our farm system to stay competitive. Therefore, I'm against things like trading Reed, possibly throwing Anderson into a deal for RJ etc. The only way we're going to have a shot with our budget is to have about half the roster making half a mil or less.

dugwood31
11-14-2004, 06:31 PM
Misery loves company and I, for one, can't get enough White Sox Organization bashing in.
Here, Here! Why would you come to this message board if you didn't want to bash the organization among family? Since I stick up for the Sox constantly around non-Sox fans, I like being able to blow off steam, or read others blow off steam. :mad:

voodoochile
11-14-2004, 06:36 PM
Here, Here! Why would you come to this message board if you didn't want to bash the organization among family? Since I stick up for the Sox constantly around non-Sox fans, I like being able to blow off steam, or read others blow off steam. :mad:
In addition, I don't believe there is a single "reality bites" poster who wouldn't gladly post happy happy joy joy comments given the chance. Heck, remember in 03 when the Sox acquired Everett and Alomar and it looked like a good thing? Even Lip was gushing with joy.

Just because we don't want to swallow the company line hook line and sinker doesn't mean we don't want the team to do well...

Win1ForMe
11-14-2004, 07:33 PM
You know what lip.....shut it. There have been articles that said the sox could possibly raise payroll to 75 mill also, why don't we wait to see what happens, stop believing everything you read.
That's kind of my point. There have been some articles implying the Sox raising payroll, and some that have said it won't change. It's just funny that Lip rushes to post the latter while not even acknowledging the former.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2004, 09:02 PM
Win One:

Obviously reading is a lost art with you isn't it?

You look through the files and find where I said comments to the effect that nobody knows what the payroll really is and what it will be. That I found it interesting that when some reporters claim the payroll will be 75 million certain fans rush to embrace it, but when other reporters say it will stay the same those same fans say the reporter is full of ****.

As stated when I started the thread is this another 'clue' about the way things will be going? No one knows...yet (but I have a great hunch where it's headed.)

If the Sox payroll is 75 million Win like some fans have suggested I'll shine your shoes, what will you do for me when (if) it stays around 65?

I'll take a gamble...will you?

OEO and Win...charter members of the **** club.

Lip

OEO Magglio
11-14-2004, 09:43 PM
OEO and Win...charter members of the **** club.

Lip
Ha lip, how the heck do you know that win and I like Reinsdorf, cause I can sure as hell tell you that I don't like the guy. I think what both of us are trying to say that it's ridiculous how you pay attention to this article concerning payroll but the others you seem to ignore or just flat out say those are wrong. Why don't we wait and see what the payroll is going to be before you just assume what it's going to be because of an article you read, like I said before.... don't believe everything you read.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2004, 10:43 PM
And like I said OEO go back in the notes to last week where I said the exact same thing as you did just now.

I was pointing out an example of another 'lazy, shiftless, no good' sportswriter who also doesn't think (a la Scott Merkin and Bob Foltman) that the Sox are raising payroll (much).

So now that's three reporters who are saying that as opposed to one (also Merkin in a bizarre way) who said it could be 75 million.

The point is there are far to many folks here who if they don't like what someone or a reporter has to say immediately dismisses the comment because it doesn't fit in with their opinions. Trouble is that doesn't make the comment wrong does it?

Lip

jabrch
11-15-2004, 01:03 AM
Cheap and Stupid OEO....Cheap and Stupid

:reinsy
"I may end up raising the payroll to 75mm - and that won't come close to stopping the bitching - cuz all these ham and eggers want to do is say I am cheap."

:KW
"There is not a single player I can trade for or sign that people wouldn't bitch about incessantly. Funny - I've risen to the top of my profession - yet they think I am stupid? I don't see any of them getting jobs as MLB GMs."

Hangar18
11-15-2004, 09:40 AM
That's kind of my point. There have been some articles implying the Sox raising payroll, and some that have said it won't change. It's just funny that Lip rushes to post the latter while not even acknowledging the former.
Maybe because LIP has seen this "movie" before. Just as I have .......
this team claims they will raise the payroll, but they'll wait for all the good
players to be gone, then Wont Raise Payroll........... Again.
Sure, we dont know whats going to happen .......... but if this team was
going to TRY to win something, and SPEND, dont you think they'd have
done it by now? years of malaise tell me otherwise ......

Hangar18
11-15-2004, 09:45 AM
What needs to happen ......... is for us to continue the BASHING incessantly.
The Chicago Media needs to wake up from their cubbie-hangover, and look
at the story thats writing itself 8 miles to the south. This team and organization needs a Media Beatdown like weve never seen before
One that lasts for years .......................
and get people to note whats happening. Anyone here ever get their
car towed illegally? Well, thats been happening for YEARS AND YEARS,
and finally a tv station does a Sting Operation on the City of CHicagos CORRUPT
towing policies and lo and behold, the city is Scrambling feverishly to straighten this out and the Streets and San guy is on the radio doing interviews.
What a bunch of BS. One day, the media will get bored of the fuzzy
blue team, and give Jerry an Media Butt Kicking .........

Baby Fisk
11-15-2004, 09:52 AM
Chairman Reinsdorf... in the Boardroom... with the Diminished Skills Clause.

wdelaney72
11-15-2004, 09:56 AM
I'm not part of the Lip Bashing army. I don't care what people post, if I don't like it, I just ignore it. I also don't know Lip very well so I don't think I could be part of the FOLIP army, either.

I do know this, Lip. If you're offering a bet on whether or not are payroll goes up to $75 million, I'll take it. We'll set the over / under at 74,999,999.99.


Win One:

Obviously reading is a lost art with you isn't it?

You look through the files and find where I said comments to the effect that nobody knows what the payroll really is and what it will be. That I found it interesting that when some reporters claim the payroll will be 75 million certain fans rush to embrace it, but when other reporters say it will stay the same those same fans say the reporter is full of ****.

As stated when I started the thread is this another 'clue' about the way things will be going? No one knows...yet (but I have a great hunch where it's headed.)

If the Sox payroll is 75 million Win like some fans have suggested I'll shine your shoes, what will you do for me when (if) it stays around 65?

I'll take a gamble...will you?

OEO and Win...charter members of the **** club.

Lip

Kilroy
11-15-2004, 10:03 AM
Even Lip was gushing with joy...
I didn't see it, so I don't believe it...

Hangar18
11-15-2004, 10:21 AM
I like Lips posts. They represent the Cold Harsh reality of what its like
to be a Sox fan, during these days of cubby camelot and media ignorance.
The team simply doesnt want to try hard to win. Some people
point out the sunnier side of things, and thats ok too. We NEED to hear
both sides of the argument ....... otherwise, were just like the nimrods
8 miles north

Frater Perdurabo
11-15-2004, 11:29 AM
Lip and Hangar... the Camus and Vonnegut of White Sox nation. :cool:

Lip Man 1
11-15-2004, 12:47 PM
Kilroy:

At the time of the deals I applauded the organization and stated that it was clear Uncle Jerry was trying to win so in fairness I had to stop bashing him until the season ended.... and I did.

I give credit where credit is due.

Also I am extremly sceptical the payroll will be 75 million dollars. At best it will be 70 and that's if you include money that is coming from other teams to pay for players the Sox got.

Like I said before when the final payroll numbers come out arguements are going to erupt over what should be counted, who's figures are accurate and so forth. Bottom line we'll never know for sure but what we will know for a fact is that another season will pass and the Sox won't win squat.

Lip

FarWestChicago
11-15-2004, 01:02 PM
I like Lips posts.Do you also keep one newspaper around that you read over and over? Do you use Tivo to watch the same show all the time? It seems you like endless, grinding repetition. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

jabrch
11-15-2004, 01:03 PM
Do you also keep one newspaper around that you read over and over? Do you use Tivo to watch the same show all the time? It seems you like endless, grinding repetition. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
***** - I cancelled my subscriptions to both of those papers earlier this month.

Tekijawa
11-15-2004, 01:27 PM
Do you use Tivo to watch the same show all the time? It seems you like endless, grinding repetition. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
I have Chapelle's Rick James Episode Tivo'd with Best Quality, I've seen it pretty close to 50 times now (25 hours of my life) and I still laugh every time!

Baby Fisk
11-15-2004, 01:31 PM
I have Chapelle's Rick James Episode Tivo'd with Best Quality, I've seen it pretty close to 50 times now (25 hours of my life) and I still laugh every time!I saw it for the first time last week. Was almost hospitalized from the laughter. :rolling:

SomebodyToldMe
11-15-2004, 01:38 PM
Do you also keep one newspaper around that you read over and over? Do you use Tivo to watch the same show all the time? It seems you like endless, grinding repetition. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
It also seems like we watch the same baseball season over and over.

SoxFanTillDeath
11-15-2004, 02:12 PM
It also seems like we watch the same baseball season over and over.

Yeah, we're just paying a little bit more for it each year...

Lip Man 1
11-15-2004, 05:59 PM
The last two posts are POTW material!

LOL. :smile:

Lip

bigfoot
11-15-2004, 08:06 PM
It also seems like we watch the same baseball season over and over.
Only 79 days 'til Groundhog Day,......is that when catchers and pitchers report?

No wonder it's the same season........