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View Full Version : Possible to Bring Back Jose?


Brian26
11-13-2004, 09:59 AM
Does anyone think Jose could possibly be a nice player to come off the bench for the Sox if they could resign him at a lower price? Or is this just a lost cause at this point?

Jjav829
11-13-2004, 10:07 AM
Does anyone think Jose could possibly be a nice player to come off the bench for the Sox if they could resign him at a lower price? Or is this just a lost cause at this point?
I seriously doubt Jose is going to want to re-sign here after his replacement is brought in. I'm sure he believes he is still a starter in this league. Whether he suckers some GM into believing the same thing is another question.

JRIG
11-13-2004, 10:09 AM
Does anyone think Jose could possibly be a nice player to come off the bench for the Sox if they could resign him at a lower price? Or is this just a lost cause at this point?
A smart GM who values Valentin's slugging and great range defensively at shortstop will sign him to start. There's no way Valentin comes back here as a bench player.

MrRoboto83
11-13-2004, 10:10 AM
If we could get him at a bargin basement price then ok. I do know we are going to have to get some more thunder in the left handed bat dept if Jose is gone. I think it is bye bye Jose, Jose, Jose, Jose...........Jose..........Jose

Daver
11-13-2004, 10:33 AM
He will be non-tendered, so the Sox could not sign him until May 1st.

jabrch
11-13-2004, 10:35 AM
A smart GM who values Valentin's slugging and great range defensively at shortstop will sign him to start.

Was that supposed to be in teal?

JKryl
11-13-2004, 10:43 AM
No way. I'm sure he would look at the bench as a big insult. This would only work here if some other team hired him as a replacement, and he came back as a bench sitter.

hitlesswonder
11-13-2004, 10:58 AM
A smart GM who values Valentin's slugging and great range defensively at shortstop will sign him to start. There's no way Valentin comes back here as a bench player.

I thnink he'll have a hard time finding a starting job. Although maybe Boston, if they don't resign Cabrera. I like Jose a lot. His defense is very underrated (like you said, great range). And the first half of last season he played really well (over an .850 OPS I think). But the second half was just terrible. July through September he hit .187 or under each month. A sub .300 OBP is just not acceptable from any spot in the lineup. When you look at that dropoff, you have to wonder if he was hurt, or some how lost some bat speed. I don't know. If I were the Sox, I wouldn't sign him back. They'll have enough infielders I think. On another team, I'd sign him as a utility player for 1 or 2 million or so, sure.

jabrch
11-13-2004, 11:02 AM
I thnink he'll have a hard time finding a starting job. Although maybe Boston, if they don't resign Cabrera. I like Jose a lot. His defense is very underrated (like you said, great range). And the first half of last season he played really well (over an .850 OPS I think). But the second half was just terrible. July through September he hit .187 or under each month. A sub .300 OBP is just not acceptable from any spot in the lineup. When you look at that dropoff, you have to wonder if he was hurt, or some how lost some bat speed. I don't know. If I were the Sox, I wouldn't sign him back. They'll have enough infielders I think. On another team, I'd sign him as a utility player for 1 or 2 million or so, sure.


Valentin really doesn't fit the Epstein mold. I don't see Boston happening. Surely not as a starter. In fact, as a starter I don't see many places happening. Who does Montreal/Washington have penciled in to start next year? Alex Gonzalez is a FA....

Hangar18
11-13-2004, 11:10 AM
Does anyone think Jose could possibly be a nice player to come off the bench for the Sox if they could resign him at a lower price? Or is this just a lost cause at this point?
Jose Valentin loves the White Sox, the fans, and Chicago. He was simply overpaid last year. If Kenny does this right, Valentin will still be a Sox,
will play every 5th day as a starter, AND will be hugely Valuable as a Left Handed Stick with some Power. Not to mention hes very good in the clubhouse, is one of the teams leaders, and is one of those select FEW
players who have that BIG GAME instinct ....... Jose is simply not being Used the right way here in Chicago (surprise). Big Time teams like the Yankees, RedSox, Dodgers, Braves, Angels would all LOVE to have a guy with those qualities.

At just 2.5 to 3 Million a yr, thats a BARGAIN (hear that Jerry?) Jose Valentin is the kind of guy that you bring in to pinch hit
in a crucial ALDS series, and comes up with the Pinch-Homer that drives the home fans wild, and what storybook seasons are written of .......
Time to stop being CHEAP (hear that Jerry?) and put Quality Bench Players
on the bench, and stop using it as a place to sit minor-leaguers and washed up veterans.

jabrch
11-13-2004, 11:25 AM
People are now bitching about 2/8-10 for Vizquel, but saying we should be bringing back Valentin to ride the pines? 2.5mm MINIMUM for him...I think we have better things to do with 2.5mm than have a 35 year old backup SS who hit .216/.287 last year, and whos numbers have declined steadily in every area except power since 2000. In 2000, he hit .273/.343 with 25 HRs. Numbers like that are fine. .216/.287 in 2004, .237/.313 in 2003, .249/.311 in 2002 - those numbers are unacceptable.

The best place for Kose Kalentin right now is anywhere other than the Sox. The only thing he brings to the table is "intangibles" - and we shouldn't be utilizing 2.5mm of resources for an intangible backup SS.

Wealz
11-13-2004, 11:31 AM
The sad thing is I'm willing to wager that Valentin will have a better OPS next year than Vizquel and he'll be cheaper too.

hitlesswonder
11-13-2004, 11:40 AM
Valentin really doesn't fit the Epstein mold. I don't see Boston happening. Surely not as a starter. In fact, as a starter I don't see many places happening. Who does Montreal/Washington have penciled in to start next year? Alex Gonzalez is a FA....

I think Epstein would be interested. They want someone cheap to start for a year till Ramirez is ready. I'm sure Epstein thinks Valentin is a good defensive shortstop (the stats say so :smile: ) and if they find a platoon partner to minimize at bats against lefties, his bat might be OK. He doesn't have the OBP, it's true, but he has power which Epstein generally seems to like.

Washington, San Francisco, and AZ are other possibilities (SF and AZ are talking about Clayton and Aurillia, despite Valentin's terrible 2nd half he's good enough to be included in that conversation). But I agree that a utility job is at least as likely.

And just for the record, I don't think Vizquel is a good sign for 4-5 million, 2 years + option and I don't think Valentin should be signed. He's been pretty good, but I don't think he should start anymore. And I get the impression he thinks he should start for the Sox. Moreover, if the Sox do sign Vizquel, there's really no reason to spend any more money on another infielder unless the Sox trade one.

hitlesswonder
11-13-2004, 11:43 AM
The sad thing is I'm willing to wager that Valentin will have a better OPS next year than Vizquel and he'll be cheaper too.

Uribe would be cheaper than either one and stands a decent chance of having the best OPS of the three :smile:

santo=dorf
11-13-2004, 11:45 AM
The sad thing is I'm willing to wager that Valentin will have a better OPS next year than Vizquel and he'll be cheaper too.
Just curious, what's more important to YOU. OBP or SLG%?
I'd take the guy with the higher OBP thank you very much.

Ol' No. 2
11-13-2004, 11:52 AM
Just curious, what's more important to YOU. OBP or SLG%?
I'd take the guy with the higher OBP thank you very much.That depends on what the player's role is. Teams need balance. You need some high OBP players, and some high BA players in the middle with some pop to drive in runners, and some versatile guys at the bottom that can sacrifice and/or turn the lineup over. Right now, the Sox are short on high OBP guys. For another team, that might not be the case, which is why Jose will fit in better elsewhere.

santo=dorf
11-13-2004, 11:56 AM
That depends on what the player's role is. Teams need balance. You need some high OBP players, and some high BA players in the middle with some pop to drive in runners, and some versatile guys at the bottom that can sacrifice and/or turn the lineup over. Right now, the Sox are short on high OBP guys. For another team, that might not be the case, which is why Jose will fit in better elsewhere.
We need a #2 hitter that can put down a bunt and move the runners over. I don't think that role requires a high SLG%, but it could use a good OBP%.

Omar fits the mold.

Ol' No. 2
11-13-2004, 12:03 PM
We need a #2 hitter that can put down a bunt and move the runners over. I don't think that role requires a high SLG%, but it could use a good OBP%.

Omar fits the mold.Omar's career OBP is only .341. Whoopie. And he's only managed to better that once in the last 4 years. I'm not impressed.

Brian26
11-13-2004, 12:18 PM
Jose Valentin loves the White Sox, the fans, and Chicago. He was simply overpaid last year. If Kenny does this right, Valentin will still be a Sox,
will play every 5th day as a starter, AND will be hugely Valuable as a Left Handed Stick with some Power. Not to mention hes very good in the clubhouse, is one of the teams leaders, and is one of those select FEW
players who have that BIG GAME instinct ....... Jose is simply not being Used the right way here in Chicago (surprise). Big Time teams like the Yankees, RedSox, Dodgers, Braves, Angels would all LOVE to have a guy with those qualities.

At just 2.5 to 3 Million a yr, thats a BARGAIN (hear that Jerry?) Jose Valentin is the kind of guy that you bring in to pinch hit
in a crucial ALDS series, and comes up with the Pinch-Homer that drives the home fans wild, and what storybook seasons are written of .......
Time to stop being CHEAP (hear that Jerry?) and put Quality Bench Players
on the bench, and stop using it as a place to sit minor-leaguers and washed up veterans.
Hangar's on the same page as me, although a lot of people have brought up reasons why they don't think this would work. I guess what Daver said is the key- the Sox won't even offer arbitration (is that the same thing as non-tendering?).

Maybe I'm thinking more with my heart than with my head. Seems like Jose made a living off getting big hits in clutch, late-inning situations over that past 5 years. It's hard to let a left-handed bat with 30 homers just walk away. Plus, the guy has done everything he's been asked since being here: played SS, CF, 3B and even offered to catch in a couple of emergency situations. Didn't he take less money in 2001 or 2002 when the Sox brought him back instead of ARod? Seems like he would be a hell of a stick to have on the bench and occassionally fill-in. He's been part of the heart of the franchise for the last 5 years.

jabrch
11-13-2004, 12:48 PM
He's been part of the heart of the franchise for the last 5 years.

Time for a heart transplant. Kose is Kone. He just isn't gonna fit in here - we are not going to spend as much as he'd want on a backup this offseason. We surely won't offer him arbitration. So unless he really wants to stay here, and brings the Sox an offer that they can't refuse, he'gawn...

hose
11-13-2004, 12:52 PM
Jose's time with the Sox is over, it was nice having him on the team but he is at the point in his career where he is basically home run or nothing.

Valentin is an automatic out against left handed pitching and I don't think he would except a bench role , as much as I like the guy it's time to go in a different direction at short.

cornball
11-13-2004, 12:55 PM
No way. I'm sure he would look at the bench as a big insult. This would only work here if some other team hired him as a replacement, and he came back as a bench sitter.
Ozzie said the same thing at this point of his career, then gladly took the bench as a role player in Atlanta.

Never understood why there is so much love for Valentin on this board....am I missing something.

Jabroni
11-13-2004, 01:26 PM
Just curious, what's more important to YOU. OBP or SLG%?
I'd take the guy with the higher OBP thank you very much.So would I from a shortstop but then again, who the hell wouldn't? :rolleyes:

oldcomiskey
11-13-2004, 01:57 PM
Was that supposed to be in teal?
all you Jose haters seem to forget that he may have had a hard time adjusting to not switch hitting--and Valentin has more range than half the damn SS out there in case you aint realized that-- and what was his slugging???

santo=dorf
11-13-2004, 02:09 PM
all you Jose haters seem to forget that he may have had a hard time adjusting to not switch hitting--and Valentin has more range than half the damn SS out there in case you aint realized that-- and what was his slugging???
What was his BA? What was his OBP? How many K's did he have?

The reason why he stopped switch-hitting was because he knew he had no chance against LHP batting right handed. 2004 proved that he had no chance against LHP batting left handed either.

Time to move on folks.....

jabrch
11-13-2004, 02:14 PM
all you Jose haters seem to forget that he may have had a hard time adjusting to not switch hitting--and Valentin has more range than half the damn SS out there in case you aint realized that-- and what was his slugging???

I don't hate Jose. I just don't think he should be starting for us.

hitlesswonder
11-13-2004, 02:23 PM
So would I from a shortstop but then again, who the hell wouldn't? :rolleyes:That must why Tejada, with a .336 career OBP, got all that money. Seriously, if a SS can turn a bunch of ground balls into outs and slugs but doesn't get on base a ton that would be fine with me. You need to get OBP from someplace else on the field then, but if the SS isn't very expensive (and Valentin wasn't before last year) then it can be a good deal becuase OBP has been cheaper to get than power at most corner positions.

That said, in the 2nd half of last year, Valentin did nothing at the plate. I like him a lot, but I'm OK with moving on.

Daver
11-13-2004, 02:39 PM
That must why Tejada, with a .336 career OBP, got all that money. Seriously, if a SS can turn a bunch of ground balls into outs and slugs but doesn't get on base a ton that would be fine with me. You need to get OBP from someplace else on the field then, but if the SS isn't very expensive (and Valentin wasn't before last year) then it can be a good deal

Jose signed a three year 15 million dollar contract in 2000, with a fourth year option for 5 mil, so how can you say he wasn't expensive before last year?

Wealz
11-13-2004, 02:48 PM
Jose signed a three year 15 million dollar contract in 2000, with a fourth year option for 5 mil, so how can you say he wasn't expensive before last year?
A-Rod, Jeter, Garciaparra . . .

hitlesswonder
11-13-2004, 02:54 PM
Jose signed a three year 15 million dollar contract in 2000, with a fourth year option for 5 mil, so how can you say he wasn't expensive before last year?
I stand corrected. I remembered it being less than that. Still, I think he performed well enough before last year to justify the money (just my opinion, I know others disagree). I think 5 million for an .800 OPS from SS is reasonable.

It is true that he turned down a larger offer from Baltimore, isn't it? Or am I hallucinating that as well? Assuming that's true, I think it shows that he wasn't overpaid for how the market viewed his performance (or Baltimore's dumb, take your pick).

Daver
11-13-2004, 03:15 PM
It is true that he turned down a larger offer from Baltimore, isn't it? Or am I hallucinating that as well? Assuming that's true, I think it shows that he wasn't overpaid for how the market viewed his performance (or Baltimore's dumb, take your pick).
Baltimore offered more money per year for less years, The Sox gave him a 3 year deal with an optional fourth.

oldcomiskey
11-13-2004, 03:32 PM
What was his BA? What was his OBP? How many K's did he have?

The reason why he stopped switch-hitting was because he knew he had no chance against LHP batting right handed. 2004 proved that he had no chance against LHP batting left handed either.

Time to move on folks.....

oh please---as far as his strikeouts--an out is an out no matter how it is chalked up----and I dont mind getting rid of Jose---but his 30 HRs and his sluuging are gonna be hard to replace--especially on the left side

Mickster
11-13-2004, 03:45 PM
oh please---as far as his strikeouts--an out is an out no matter how it is chalked up----Have to disagree. Can't advance a runner, score a man from 3rd, etc. when you K. I hate the term "productive out" but a K is the least "productive out".

oldcomiskey
11-13-2004, 04:31 PM
Have to disagree. Can't advance a runner, score a man from 3rd, etc. when you K. I hate the term "productive out" but a K is the least "productive out".
give me a k anyday as opposed to what er seem to always lead the league in--GIDP

santo=dorf
11-13-2004, 04:50 PM
give me a k anyday as opposed to what er seem to always lead the league in--GIDP
I would gladly take a guy who'll ground into 12 DP's and K's 62 times over a guy who'll strike out 139 times and have 5 GIDP's.

Jose strikes out a TON more than Omar grounds into a double play.

:manos

"I'm gone, get over it already!"

oldcomiskey
11-14-2004, 08:31 AM
I would gladly take a guy who'll ground into 12 DP's and K's 62 times over a guy who'll strike out 139 times and have 5 GIDP's.

Jose strikes out a TON more than Omar grounds into a double play.

:manos

"I'm gone, get over it already!"

thats not the point. the point is if youre going to replace Jose it had better be with a guy with Visquel who can play---not some bum

jabrch
11-14-2004, 09:29 AM
oh please---as far as his strikeouts--an out is an out no matter how it is chalked up----and I dont mind getting rid of Jose---but his 30 HRs and his sluuging are gonna be hard to replace--especially on the left side

Are we short on HRs? His average and obp will be easy to replace.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2004, 10:34 AM
Are we short on HRs? His average and obp will be easy to replace.
I would rather be "short" getting rid of Konerko's high-priced homeruns. Valentin's are relatively cheap.
:cool:

I wouldn't be so sure about our team have an excess of dingers next year. Magglio's bat is gone and all we did was lose lose lose with Konerko and Lee pretending to be 3/4 hitters.

soxtalker
11-14-2004, 11:57 AM
I always wondered why the Sox did not trade Valentin in the final month or two of the season, after it was clear we were out of the race. I would have thought he would be attractive to a team in the race as a sub with left-handed power. The fact that they didn't move him may indicate that there is limited demand out there for him.

basilesox
11-15-2004, 02:17 AM
Hangar's on the same page as me, although a lot of people have brought up reasons why they don't think this would work. I guess what Daver said is the key- the Sox won't even offer arbitration (is that the same thing as non-tendering?).

Maybe I'm thinking more with my heart than with my head. Seems like Jose made a living off getting big hits in clutch, late-inning situations over that past 5 years. It's hard to let a left-handed bat with 30 homers just walk away. Plus, the guy has done everything he's been asked since being here: played SS, CF, 3B and even offered to catch in a couple of emergency situations. Didn't he take less money in 2001 or 2002 when the Sox brought him back instead of ARod? Seems like he would be a hell of a stick to have on the bench and occassionally fill-in. He's been part of the heart of the franchise for the last 5 years.
Amen Brother..Jose is much underappreciated on this team.