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View Full Version : ESPN: Sox talking to Yanks & A's - Vasquez or Zito?


Mickster
11-11-2004, 05:24 PM
ESPN AM1000 update just stated that Sox today spoke with both the Yankees and A's with respect to Vasquez and Zito respectively.

My pick would be Javier because it appears that he has fallen out of favor with the Yanks and their historic willingness to eat salary....

Iguana775
11-11-2004, 05:26 PM
ESPN AM1000 update just stated that Sox today spoke with both the Yankees and A's with respect to Vasquez and Zito respectively.

My pick would be Javier because it appears that he has fallen out of favor with the Yanks and their historic willingness to eat salary....
i wouldnt mind either. but as long as they arent giving up too much. Paulie and Garland for Zito would be fine by me.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 05:27 PM
ESPN AM1000 update just stated that Sox today spoke with both the Yankees and A's with respect to Vasquez and Zito respectively.

My pick would be Javier because it appears that he has fallen out of favor with the Yanks and their historic willingness to eat salary....
Any mention of who the Sox would deal?

Could it be prospects to the Yanks for vazquez+cash? Yanks turn around and spin the prospects+Dioner Navarro+Robinson Cano to the DBacks for RJ? KW then uses his payroll $$$ to sign Vizquel & bullpen/OF help?

(drool)

Just say no to Zito. His declining #s and a move from pitcher-friendly NA Coliseum to hitter-friendly USCF scare me.

Kogs35
11-11-2004, 05:33 PM
did'nt vazques sign for 4 years 40 mill? if thee yanks eat 20 mill maybe if not forget it

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 05:35 PM
Any mention of who the Sox would deal?

Could it be prospects to the Yanks for vazquez+cash? Yanks turn around and spin the prospects+Dioner Navarro+Robinson Cano to the DBacks for RJ? KW then uses his payroll $$$ to sign Vizquel & bullpen/OF help?

(drool)

Just say no to Zito. His declining #s and a move from pitcher-friendly NA Coliseum to hitter-friendly USCF scare me.Do you think there's any market at all for Kevin Brown? (Not for the Sox, but generally.) He's another one the Yankees want badly to unload. When he's healthy, he's been pretty good. Trouble is, he's only healthy for about 20 games a year. If they pay nearly all his salary, they might find a taker, and he could be part of a deal somewhere.

GiveMeSox
11-11-2004, 05:36 PM
i wouldnt mind either. but as long as they arent giving up too much. Paulie and Garland for Zito would be fine by me.
How many times have we been through this. It doesn't do any good to deal form your weaker side to pick up a better part of your weaker side. That being said if you trade garland and pk for zito then u still have 4 pitchers and another long season of 5th starter woes. This team needs a solid 1-5. Therefore the sox should not consider trading pitching for pitching. Trading PK might be ok becuase we have a viable replacment in Gload. Its like the things about trading Lee to make room for signing beltran. What does that accomplish trading great player for anothre great player does nothing to solidify your holes and strenghten your team.

A.T. Money
11-11-2004, 05:37 PM
Any mention of who the Sox would deal?

Could it be prospects to the Yanks for vazquez+cash? Yanks turn around and spin the prospects+Dioner Navarro+Robinson Cano to the DBacks for RJ? KW then uses his payroll $$$ to sign Vizquel & bullpen/OF help?

(drool)

Just say no to Zito. His declining #s and a move from pitcher-friendly NA Coliseum to hitter-friendly USCF scare me.NA Coliseum is just as much a hitter friendly park as is USCF...in regards to homeruns...not foul territory.

lowesox
11-11-2004, 05:39 PM
This is so funny. About two hours ago, I was reading this article

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3109094

about how the Yankees should go after Hudson, because Oakland might consider trading him for the right price. And, in the article, Rosenthal mentions that the two teams would need a third team to enter the negotiations to make it happen. And I thought, "Hmmm, they probably need a sucker." Then I read that Kenny is negotiating with Oakland and New York. Very funny.

Probably isn't us making a 3-way trade. But Kenny really is dumb, so you can't help but laugh at him every now and again.

Randar68
11-11-2004, 05:41 PM
This is so funny. About two hours ago, I was reading this article

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3109094

about how the Yankees should go after Hudson, because Oakland might consider trading him for the right price. And, in the article, Rosenthal mentions that the two teams would need a third team to enter the negotiations to make it happen. And I thought, "Hmmm, they probably need a sucker." Then I read that Kenny is negotiating with Oakland and New York. Very funny.

Probably isn't us making a 3-way trade. But Kenny really is dumb, so you can't help but laugh at him every now and again.
We were such suckers in the Colon deal, weren't we?

Get a clue.

santo=dorf
11-11-2004, 05:42 PM
Do you think there's any market at all for Kevin Brown? (Not for the Sox, but generally.) He's another one the Yankees want badly to unload. When he's healthy, he's been pretty good. Trouble is, he's only healthy for about 20 games a year. If they pay nearly all his salary, they might find a taker, and he could be part of a deal somewhere.
There is talk about trading him to the Braves to he can play closer to home. Either Brown +cash for something or a swap of Andruw Jones' bad contract for Brown.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 05:46 PM
This is so funny. About two hours ago, I was reading this article

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3109094

about how the Yankees should go after Hudson, because Oakland might consider trading him for the right price. And, in the article, Rosenthal mentions that the two teams would need a third team to enter the negotiations to make it happen. And I thought, "Hmmm, they probably need a sucker." Then I read that Kenny is negotiating with Oakland and New York. Very funny.

Probably isn't us making a 3-way trade. But Kenny really is dumb, so you can't help but laugh at him every now and again.
No bias there, huh? There's a 3d partner needed, so that partner woudl HAVe to be a sucker. Even if it were say Garland for Vazquez+a bunch of cash. Or Konerko for Vazquez+cash (so the Sox save $$$ and can spend that in FA). Yeah, that's a real sucker there....

1917
11-11-2004, 05:47 PM
I have to say Javier with this one, I think Zito has pitched his better games and Ozzie Loves Javier and was a coach with him in Montreal

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 05:52 PM
How many times have we been through this. It doesn't do any good to deal form your weaker side to pick up a better part of your weaker side. That being said if you trade garland and pk for zito then u still have 4 pitchers and another long season of 5th starter woes. This team needs a solid 1-5. Therefore the sox should not consider trading pitching for pitching. Trading PK might be ok becuase we have a viable replacment in Gload. Its like the things about trading Lee to make room for signing beltran. What does that accomplish trading great player for anothre great player does nothing to solidify your holes and strenghten your team.
Yes, but trading the Yankees for Javier and KB (say maybe giving up Garland and Konerko would look somewhat appealing:

Garcia
Buehrle
Vazquez
Brown
Contreras

Beltran
Vizquel
Thomas
Lee
Rowand
Gload
Crazy Carl
Crede
Catcher

Tekijawa
11-11-2004, 05:54 PM
My guess is any trade with the Yanks Won't be for Konerko or Lee as there is no way that they yanks would need another Firstbaseman/ DH or Outfielder, especially if they plan on going after Beltran...

Mickster
11-11-2004, 05:54 PM
Yes, but trading the Yankees for Javier and KB (say maybe giving up Garland and Konerko would look somewhat appealing:

Garcia
Buehrle
Vazquez
Brown
Contreras

Beltran
Vizquel
Thomas
Lee
Rowand
Gload
Crazy Carl
Crede
Catcher

In your pipedream, 60% of the pitchers were on the Yank's starting rotation in '04. A rotation that, unfortunately, wasn't all that good...

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 05:54 PM
Yes, but trading the Yankees for Javier and KB (say maybe giving up Garland and Konerko would look somewhat appealing:

Garcia
Buehrle
Vazquez
Brown
Contreras

Beltran
Vizquel
Thomas
Lee
Rowand
Gload
Crazy Carl
Crede
Catcher

That better be EXTREMELY deep pink, because I think you just playd Gload or Everett at 2B!!!

A more realistic trade might be Everett+Garland for Vazquez+Brown+cash (cash to cover all of Brown and part of Vazquez salary).

Then the Sox might actually be able to make a run at a JD Drew.

Mickster
11-11-2004, 05:55 PM
That better be EXTREMELY deep pink, because I think you just playd Gload or Everett at 2B!!!

A more realistic trade might be Everett+Garland for Vazquez+Brown+cash (cash to cover all of Brown and part of Vazquez salary).

Then the Sox might actually be able to make a run at a JD Drew.This would be MORE realistic???? :?:

nodiggity59
11-11-2004, 05:58 PM
Probably isn't us making a 3-way trade. But Kenny really is dumb, so you can't help but laugh at him every now and again.
Is there any particular reason why you state your subjective opinion as fact?

nodiggity59
11-11-2004, 06:01 PM
In your pipedream, 60% of the pitchers were on the Yank's starting rotation in '04. A rotation that, unfortunately, wasn't all that good...
Those guys look a lot better in a rotation with Mark Buerhle and Freddy Garcia, IMO.

Also, they would hopefully insure a solid #5 SP.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 06:01 PM
This would be MORE realistic???? :?:
More than Carl/Gload at 2B, yes. With the rumors being that the Yanks are willing to dump Brown and pay ALL of his salary, and that they're willing to eat something on Vazquez's deal, it's not that farfetched.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 06:01 PM
My guess is any trade with the Yanks Won't be for Konerko or Lee as there is no way that they yanks would need another Firstbaseman/ DH or Outfielder, especially if they plan on going after Beltran...Except as part of a 3-way deal in which they send that player to either the D-backs for RJ or to Oakland for Hudson. They're desperate to unload Vazquez and Brown and they want RJ in the worst way, so it may be possible to eat their lunch in this deal.

BTW, am I the only one thoroughly enjoying watching the chickens coming home to roost on the Yankees' trying to spend their way out of every problem, creating more problems in the process, trying to spend their way out of THOSE problems, etc., etc., etc?

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 06:06 PM
That better be EXTREMELY deep pink, because I think you just playd Gload or Everett at 2B!!!

A more realistic trade might be Everett+Garland for Vazquez+Brown+cash (cash to cover all of Brown and part of Vazquez salary).

Then the Sox might actually be able to make a run at a JD Drew.
Oops on the Everett thing - I suppose I'd better get him out of there for Uribe.

NonetheLoaiza
11-11-2004, 06:07 PM
A more realistic trade might be Everett+Garland for Vazquez+Brown+cash (cash to cover all of Brown and part of Vazquez salary).

Then the Sox might actually be able to make a run at a JD Drew.
why would the yankees want carl everett? or garland for that matter. they can go out and sign pedro or whomever they want.

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 06:11 PM
why would the yankees want carl everett? or garland for that matter. they can go out and sign pedro or whomever they want.
See now, that's why you dangle Konerko to the Yankees. I heard they're trying to convince Giambi to retire due to health issues.

Seems to me that they're going to want something better than Olerud or Clark at 1B all year.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 06:12 PM
why would the yankees want carl everett? or garland for that matter. they can go out and sign pedro or whomever they want.
For the Yanks, Everett=Ruben Sierra (veteran DH/bench bat). As for Garland, he's additional bait for RJ, or gives them a decent cheap SP since they'll have to go get at least 2 in FA.

nodiggity59
11-11-2004, 06:13 PM
Except as part of a 3-way deal in which they send that player to either the D-backs for RJ or to Oakland for Hudson. They're desperate to unload Vazquez and Brown and they want RJ in the worst way, so it may be possible to eat their lunch in this deal.

BTW, am I the only one thoroughly enjoying watching the chickens coming home to roost on the Yankees' trying to spend their way out of every problem, creating more problems in the process, trying to spend their way out of THOSE problems, etc., etc., etc?
Funny, cause I think getting to w/in 3 outs of the WS is a pretty good season. Sure, they didn't achieve their objective, but they definitely SHOULD have.

Yeah, they've got serious problems.

lowesox
11-11-2004, 06:14 PM
We were such suckers in the Colon deal, weren't we?

Get a clue.
Hahaha. I still maintain that Randar = Kenny Williams. After all, with Kenny's ego, surely he has to come on here and defend himself. And Randar, you do make me laugh almost as much.

The Yankees LOVE it when their puppet KW makes trades. They loved unloading Contreras onto us. And they loved designing a trade for us to keep Colon away from Boston.

nodiggity59
11-11-2004, 06:17 PM
And they loved designing a trade for us to keep Colon away from Boston.
Didn't you love us getting Colon too? Being a puppet for the Yanks anti BoSox campaign can be an excellent and resourceful strategy. Ultimately, the circumstances don't matter as long as the deal is good. BTW, all of MLB besides the BoSox is the Yankees puppet IMO.

Jjav829
11-11-2004, 06:32 PM
I'd rather have Vazquez than :smokin: Zito. I can't actually see the Yankees giving him up without getting either another good pitcher in return, or something that they can use to acquire a pitcher. That said, maybe the D'backs do like the Konerko, Garland, prospects package the Sox have to offer, but can't accept it because RJ won't accept a trade here. Using that, maybe we could trade the RJ package to NY for Vazquez and a significant portion of Vazquez's contract. The Yankees might do that if they know they can spin those players to Arizona if the D'backs like that package better than anything the Yankees can offer.

lowesox
11-11-2004, 07:00 PM
Didn't you love us getting Colon too? Being a puppet for the Yanks anti BoSox campaign can be an excellent and resourceful strategy. Ultimately, the circumstances don't matter as long as the deal is good. BTW, all of MLB besides the BoSox is the Yankees puppet IMO.
Sure, I liked getting Colon at the time. But don't misappropriate too much credit to KEnny. His only strategy in the whole thing was being in the right place at the right time.

Paulwny
11-11-2004, 07:05 PM
See now, that's why you dangle Konerko to the Yankees. I heard they're trying to convince Giambi to retire due to health issues.

Seems to me that they're going to want something better than Olerud or Clark at 1B all year.
After they sign Beltran, Williams will be at first.

kittle42
11-11-2004, 07:11 PM
This is so funny. About two hours ago, I was reading this article

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3109094

about how the Yankees should go after Hudson, because Oakland might consider trading him for the right price. And, in the article, Rosenthal mentions that the two teams would need a third team to enter the negotiations to make it happen. And I thought, "Hmmm, they probably need a sucker." Then I read that Kenny is negotiating with Oakland and New York. Very funny.

Probably isn't us making a 3-way trade. But Kenny really is dumb, so you can't help but laugh at him every now and again.
I'm not a FOBB, but that's funny.

rmusacch
11-11-2004, 07:16 PM
ESPN AM1000 update just stated that Sox today spoke with both the Yankees and A's with respect to Vasquez and Zito respectively.

My pick would be Javier because it appears that he has fallen out of favor with the Yanks and their historic willingness to eat salary....
Zito might be a good pickup. He is now dating Alyssa Milano and we saw how good that was for Carl Pavano last season.

dickallen15
11-11-2004, 07:22 PM
See now, that's why you dangle Konerko to the Yankees. I heard they're trying to convince Giambi to retire due to health issues.

Seems to me that they're going to want something better than Olerud or Clark at 1B all year.Giambi is owed something over $80 million. The last thing he will do is retire.

beckett21
11-11-2004, 10:52 PM
Sure, I liked getting Colon at the time. But don't misappropriate too much credit to KEnny. His only strategy in the whole thing was being in the right place at the right time.
God forbid Kenny gets any credit for anything he does from some people around here. :rolleyes:

And even if your *theory* on his *strategy* is correct....so what?

Sorry, I forgot he only gets credit for the deals that don't work out.

:whatever:

jabrch
11-11-2004, 11:03 PM
Probably isn't us making a 3-way trade. But Kenny really is dumb, so you can't help but laugh at him every now and again.



Cheap and Stupid....


lol

Brian26
11-11-2004, 11:15 PM
Zito might be a good pickup. He is now dating Alyssa Milano and we saw how good that was for Carl Pavano last season.
Who in North America hasn't dated Alyssa Milano? :D:

Jabroni
11-12-2004, 12:43 AM
After they sign Beltran, Williams will be at first.Nope, Bernie will be at DH.

By the way, why does anyone want Kevin Brown on this team? He is the most injury-prone pitcher in baseball. If we trade for him, he would just pull a David Wells and miss half the season.

Randar68
11-12-2004, 12:46 AM
Sure, I liked getting Colon at the time. But don't misappropriate too much credit to KEnny. His only strategy in the whole thing was being in the right place at the right time.
Are you tthis stupid? Kenny brought the Yankees to the table in that trade tot make it happen. Then again, that doesn't fit your hypothetical fantasy world notions.

:dtroll:

Randar68
11-12-2004, 12:50 AM
Hahaha. I still maintain that Randar = Kenny Williams. After all, with Kenny's ego, surely he has to come on here and defend himself. And Randar, you do make me laugh almost as much.

The Yankees LOVE it when their puppet KW makes trades. They loved unloading Contreras onto us. And they loved designing a trade for us to keep Colon away from Boston.
Are you serious? I have histories with people here going back to long before KW became GM. You're only objective here is to slander KW. It's pretty pathetic. How's Sean Lowe doing? That was such a terrible trade. He was such a terrific starter, wasn't he?

Get a life.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-12-2004, 04:23 AM
I might be wrong but I'm sure I heard (right after the WS) that Javier Vazquez is Joe Torre's favorite pitcher and he's the ace of the staff if not next year in the very near future.

The Sox maybe talking to the Yankees about dealing Kelly Wunsch for cash. Yankees need a lefty to take care of lefties, why not Wunsch? I love the guy, can't wait to see him back in the bigs (if ever).

hold2dibber
11-12-2004, 07:48 AM
Sure, I liked getting Colon at the time. But don't misappropriate too much credit to KEnny. His only strategy in the whole thing was being in the right place at the right time.
So if KW makes a good trade, he's lucky, if he makes a bad trade, he's an idiot? What a crock. And when he gets into a deal as the third party and land Colon he's just a lucky puppet. But if he somehow gets into a Yankees/A's 3-team trade he's a "sucker"? Doesn't make sense.

And even if your "theory" were correct (i.e., that Cashman orchestrated the whole Colon deal and KW was just a lucky recipient), wouldn't that whole scenario suggest that getting in as the third party in a Yankees/A's trade could work out in the Sox favor again? If they need a 3rd party with the right pieces to make the deal work, maybe the Sox come out like gang-busters again. Why does being the third party in a 3-team trade make them a "sucker" instead of a "right place, right time" winner (again)?

SOXSINCE'70
11-12-2004, 08:23 AM
[QUOTE=Foulke29]

Beltran
/QUOTE]

Stop the Beltran dream.It's not happening.Give up the ghost!!

lowesox
11-12-2004, 08:40 AM
So if KW makes a good trade, he's lucky, if he makes a bad trade, he's an idiot? What a crock. And when he gets into a deal as the third party and land Colon he's just a lucky puppet. But if he somehow gets into a Yankees/A's 3-team trade he's a "sucker"? Doesn't make sense.
Kenny brought the Yankees to the table in that trade tot make it happen.
Now, now... That's not Kenny's only good trade. I think the Marte trade was a good one. Same thing with the Uribe trade.

But there's a reason to believe that Kenny didn't mastermind the Colon trade. Take a look at his MO: He always gives up a lot to get a lot. That's why a lot of fans like him, and a lot don't. The Colon trade doesn't fit. It's the only time I can think of where he's made a trade where you couldn't argue that he overpaid. Nobody can say for sure who designed that trade, but surely even his defenders can agree - it doesn't resemble other KW trades.

So when I see him trading with two of baseball's better GMs it makes me nervous. Especially since when you look at the Colon trade and the Contreras trade the Yanks got exactly what they wanted. And when you look at the Foulke trade, well, I think that was probably the worst trade Kenny's made.

jabrch
11-12-2004, 09:02 AM
Who in North America hasn't dated Alyssa Milano? :D:


That, unfortunately, would be me...

jabrch
11-12-2004, 09:04 AM
But there's a reason to believe that Kenny didn't mastermind the Colon trade. Take a look at his MO: He always gives up a lot to get a lot.

Can you name all of the players KW has traded who have gone on to greatness in other places? Kip? Fogg? Anyone else? Maybe someday Jeremy Reed? Miggy? For all the trades he has made, I don't see how he ALWAYS GIVES UP A LOT.

jabrch
11-12-2004, 09:08 AM
So if KW makes a good trade, he's lucky, if he makes a bad trade, he's an idiot? What a crock. And when he gets into a deal as the third party and land Colon he's just a lucky puppet. But if he somehow gets into a Yankees/A's 3-team trade he's a "sucker"? Doesn't make sense.


Ya see, that's cuz he is stupid.

It is kinda like the Reindorfian Law - when he spends money on a player, raises the payroll, or makes an effort to do things for the fans, he always has an alterior motive - becasue in reality, we know he is cheap. It is a proven fact.

As we know...they are CHEAP AND STUIPID Right?

:KW I'm stoopid!
:reinsy I'm cheap!

Iwritecode
11-12-2004, 10:58 AM
Giambi is owed something over $80 million. The last thing he will do is retire.

This isn't football. Giambi will get his money no matter what he does.

Ask Baltimore how much longer they have until Albert Belle's contract is paid off...

Iwritecode
11-12-2004, 10:59 AM
Who in North America hasn't dated Alyssa Milano? :D:

*raises hand*


Do I have to take a number or something?

Flight #24
11-12-2004, 11:08 AM
This isn't football. Giambi will get his money no matter what he does.

Ask Baltimore how much longer they have until Albert Belle's contract is paid off...
I think that's only true if he retires due to a baseball-related injury. If it's knees, that would qualify. If it's that mysterious ailment/tumor, not sure if that's true.

However, I'm fairly certain that Big Stein could come up with a scenario that lets Jason retire and saves the Spanks $$$. Example: Make him an $80mil consultant to YES. The advantage to George is that he saves the luxury tax on the $80mil (which is roughly a $35mil saving).

FightingBillini
11-12-2004, 11:08 AM
Ask Baltimore how much longer they have until Albert Belle's contract is paid off...
Belle's contract, along with a few other bad ones came off the books last year. Thats why they went all out and spent a lot of money last offseason.

Randar68
11-12-2004, 01:49 PM
Now, now... That's not Kenny's only good trade. I think the Marte trade was a good one. Same thing with the Uribe trade.

But there's a reason to believe that Kenny didn't mastermind the Colon trade. Take a look at his MO: He always gives up a lot to get a lot. That's why a lot of fans like him, and a lot don't. The Colon trade doesn't fit. It's the only time I can think of where he's made a trade where you couldn't argue that he overpaid. Nobody can say for sure who designed that trade, but surely even his defenders can agree - it doesn't resemble other KW trades.

So when I see him trading with two of baseball's better GMs it makes me nervous. Especially since when you look at the Colon trade and the Contreras trade the Yanks got exactly what they wanted. And when you look at the Foulke trade, well, I think that was probably the worst trade Kenny's made.
Really? KW overpaid for David Wells, the same David Wells that won 21 games the year before he was acquired and has since been very successful?

Really? KW overpaid for Marte?

Really? KW overpaid for Uribe?

Really? KW overpaid for Colon?

Your hatred is blind, thanks for re-affirming that fact.:bs:

hold2dibber
11-12-2004, 01:58 PM
Now, now... That's not Kenny's only good trade. I think the Marte trade was a good one. Same thing with the Uribe trade.

But there's a reason to believe that Kenny didn't mastermind the Colon trade. Take a look at his MO: He always gives up a lot to get a lot. That's why a lot of fans like him, and a lot don't. The Colon trade doesn't fit. It's the only time I can think of where he's made a trade where you couldn't argue that he overpaid. Nobody can say for sure who designed that trade, but surely even his defenders can agree - it doesn't resemble other KW trades.
Not that I agree with your characterization of his other trades (though I hear what you're saying), it still strikes me as rank speculation. I think he deserves all the credit in the world for that trade - it was a damn good move and it's not like the Sox were the only team after Colon, there were many others who wanted him and they didn't get it done, but KW did.

Flight #24
11-12-2004, 02:00 PM
Really? KW overpaid for David Wells, the same David Wells that won 21 games the year before he was acquired and has since been very successful?


That brings up a question: I've had a debate many times with a buddy of mine that insists that Wells had back problems at the end of 2000 that were either different or more serious than the ones he has had every year, and that therefore KW should have known he was getting damaged goods.

Anyone able to confirm or deny that? I always thought that Dave had the same issues he'd had in prior years so it would have been pretty near impossible for KW to expect him to get injured when he hadn't before.

Randar68
11-12-2004, 02:08 PM
Anyone able to confirm or deny that? I always thought that Dave had the same issues he'd had in prior years so it would have been pretty near impossible for KW to expect him to get injured when he hadn't before.
There have never been "new issues" He's a fat-ass who has a tender back. Back cramps go like that. They can tighten up periodically and not slow you down too much, or they can cripple you for months. It was a risk, but every pitcher is a risk, it's just to what degree...

hitlesswonder
11-12-2004, 02:13 PM
Can you name all of the players KW has traded who have gone on to greatness in other places? Kip? Fogg? Anyone else? Maybe someday Jeremy Reed? Miggy? For all the trades he has made, I don't see how he ALWAYS GIVES UP A LOT.Well, there's Foulke. And Wells had 2 good, cheap seasons before injuries last year (he may not be great, but he's done a lot more for Pit than Ritchie for the Sox). But Williams has had some good trades: Colon, Marte, Uribe, Gload were all very, very good. A bunch of others have been washes in terms of talent (David Wells, Clayton, R. Alomar, Durham). The ones with the biggest chance to look bad are the Everett trades and Garcia, but the jury is obviously still out.

Anyway, it's definitely not accurate to say he always overpays. It's more accurate to say that in 4 years, he hasn't been able to make the right moves to get the Sox into the playoffs. I often don't agree with Williams assessment of what would make the Sox a better team (Clayton was one example of that, even though he gave up nothing for him), but there's also probably a reason why he's a GM and I'm not :smile: We'll see what happens this season...

broker3d
11-14-2004, 08:01 PM
Can you imagine what the New York media and fans would do to Garland. They would eat that guy up. He'd be raw meat.

Also, if we go after an Oakland pitcher it would be Mulder. Not to mention that he would love to come here. he grew up a diehard White Sox fan.

dickallen15
11-14-2004, 08:49 PM
Now, now... That's not Kenny's only good trade. I think the Marte trade was a good one. Same thing with the Uribe trade.

But there's a reason to believe that Kenny didn't mastermind the Colon trade. Take a look at his MO: He always gives up a lot to get a lot. That's why a lot of fans like him, and a lot don't. The Colon trade doesn't fit. It's the only time I can think of where he's made a trade where you couldn't argue that he overpaid. Nobody can say for sure who designed that trade, but surely even his defenders can agree - it doesn't resemble other KW trades.

So when I see him trading with two of baseball's better GMs it makes me nervous. Especially since when you look at the Colon trade and the Contreras trade the Yanks got exactly what they wanted. And when you look at the Foulke trade, well, I think that was probably the worst trade Kenny's made.
I'm no fan of KW, but he has only grossly overpaid twice. Ritchie and Koch. Everett last season, he probably overpaid because he loves Carl and thought he was getting the 2003 version, which was far from what he got. But the jury is still out on Rauch and Majewski. How can anyone complain about the David Wells trade. He gave up Kevin Beirne who did nothing, Brian Simmons, who was so pathetic he wound up back with the Sox the next spring, and released, and Mike Sirotka, who never threw another pitch in the major leagues. He gave up a combined nothing, for a guy who has had 1 bad year the last 7 or 8, and unfortunately its when he was in Chicago. I wouldn't mind KW bringing Boomer back. Give him an incentive laiden deal.

nitetrain8601
11-14-2004, 09:06 PM
I'm no fan of KW, but he has only grossly overpaid twice. Ritchie and Koch. Everett last season, he probably overpaid because he loves Carl and thought he was getting the 2003 version, which was far from what he got. But the jury is still out on Rauch and Majewski. How can anyone complain about the David Wells trade. He gave up Kevin Beirne who did nothing, Brian Simmons, who was so pathetic he wound up back with the Sox the next spring, and released, and Mike Sirotka, who never threw another pitch in the major leagues. He gave up a combined nothing, for a guy who has had 1 bad year the last 7 or 8, and unfortunately its when he was in Chicago. I wouldn't mind KW bringing Boomer back. Give him an incentive laiden deal.
He wasn't behind the Ritchie trade, Schueler was. Some guy even has a link in his sig that has Schueler admitting that. Koch, well the jury is still out because we also got Cotts if I remember correctly and I forgot who else they got. I liked the other moves too, including the boomer deal. I would happily bring him back.

Mohoney
11-14-2004, 09:43 PM
Even if it were say Garland for Vazquez+a bunch of cash.
I would throw a kegger if this ever happened. It STILL leaves us payroll room to sign another starter.

An upgrade from Garland to Vazquez on Steinbrenner's dollar? Where do I sign?

Wealz
11-14-2004, 09:59 PM
He wasn't behind the Ritchie trade, Schueler was. Some guy even has a link in his sig that has Schueler admitting that. Koch, well the jury is still out because we also got Cotts if I remember correctly and I forgot who else they got. I liked the other moves too, including the boomer deal. I would happily bring him back.
At the very least, Williams signed off on the Ritchie trade. He was the one responsible for it.

c4birdiemaker
11-14-2004, 11:25 PM
ESPN AM1000 update just stated that Sox today spoke with both the Yankees and A's with respect to Vasquez and Zito respectively.

My pick would be Javier because it appears that he has fallen out of favor with the Yanks and their historic willingness to eat salary....zito's a far better pitcher...vaz can't keep it in the park