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Jerome
11-11-2004, 04:10 PM
Heard on the Score about an hour ago that Kendall wasn't going to happen. The Pirates rejected a trade which was said to have included Konerko and Garland.

Thank you Pittsburgh. Kendall's monstous contract would cripple this team for the next few years. Also, what offense does Kendall provide us with besides his OBP? I'm a moneyball guy but I also know that we need guys to drive runs in and besides Lee, Konerko is the only guy on this team who can.

We need to trade Konerko this year while his value is highest, but we need to get something decent in return. Now if the Pirates threw in one of their young players (Jack Wilson, Perez) to soften the blow of Kendall's contract, I would say go for it.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 04:17 PM
Heard on the Score about an hour ago that Kendall wasn't going to happen. The Pirates rejected a trade which was said to have included Konerko and Garland.

Thank you Pittsburgh. Kendall's monstous contract would cripple this team for the next few years. Also, what offense does Kendall provide us with besides his OBP? I'm a moneyball guy but I also know that we need guys to drive runs in and besides Lee, Konerko is the only guy on this team who can.

We need to trade Konerko this year while his value is highest, but we need to get something decent in return. Now if the Pirates threw in one of their young players (Jack Wilson, Perez) to soften the blow of Kendall's contract, I would say go for it.The Sox were 3rd in the league in BA with men is scoring position. They were first in MLB in their O-factor (percentage of scoring runners from scoring position). They were 3rd from last in number of AB with men in scoring position. They need OBP guys.

Relax. Pittsburgh would pay a large portion of Kendall's contract. The Sox badly need some OBP guys, and I'd MUCH rather have Kendall than Vizquel. If the reports of a $10M deal for Vizquel are true, and if Pittsburgh will pay a good chunk of Kendall's contract, the money could be very close between these guys.

lowesox
11-11-2004, 04:19 PM
Heard on the Score about an hour ago that Kendall wasn't going to happen. The Pirates rejected a trade which was said to have included Konerko and Garland.

Thank you Pittsburgh. Kendall's monstous contract would cripple this team for the next few years. Also, what offense does Kendall provide us with besides his OBP? I'm a moneyball guy but I also know that we need guys to drive runs in and besides Lee, Konerko is the only guy on this team who can.

We need to trade Konerko this year while his value is highest, but we need to get something decent in return. Now if the Pirates threw in one of their young players (Jack Wilson, Perez) to soften the blow of Kendall's contract, I would say go for it.
Not even Kenny would be stupid enough to offer Garland and Konerko for Kendall. Surely, there must have been a stud Pirate he wanted to include in the trade because I wouldn't trade neither Konerko or Garland by themselves for Kendall.

Then again, thinking back to the Anaheim trade that never happened, Kenny might be that stupid... We need a new GM.

Jerome
11-11-2004, 04:21 PM
The Sox were 3rd in the league in BA with men is scoring position. They were first in MLB in their O-factor (percentage of scoring runners from scoring position). They were 3rd from last in number of AB with men in scoring position. They need OBP guys.

Relax. Pittsburgh would pay a large portion of Kendall's contract. The Sox badly need some OBP guys, and I'd MUCH rather have Kendall than Vizquel. If the reports of a $10M deal for Vizquel are true, and if Pittsburgh will pay a good chunk of Kendall's contract, the money could be very close between these guys.


I agree. I think the sox biggest need is high OBP leadoff men. (Remeber everyone last year in June how great the Sox were when Harris and Uribe were getting on base a ton and our offense was scoring like 10 runs a game?) But not in the form of a catcher who makes a ton of money and who doesn't have any power. I'm thinking more like Hairston or Cattalanato (sp).

wdelaney72
11-11-2004, 04:23 PM
I keep reading posts saying why the Sox should NOT get Kendall, and none of them have convinced me.

We need OBP. We need hitting for average. We need speed on the basepaths. We have no quality catcher at this time.

I would live with Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B if we signed Kendall.

We'd still need to improve SP, though.

It's not over yet. The Kendall to the Sox rumor has been circulating for quite a long time. There's still plenty of time to work out a deal.

lowesox
11-11-2004, 04:25 PM
I'm thinking more like Hairston or Cattalanato (sp).
I like the way you think. In fact, I'd like to see both of those players.

kittle42
11-11-2004, 04:25 PM
I would live with Uribe at SS, Harris at 2B if we signed Kendall.
You could always end up living with that even if we don't get Kendall.:(:

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 04:25 PM
I agree. I think the sox biggest need is high OBP leadoff men. (Remeber everyone last year in June how great the Sox were when Harris and Uribe were getting on base a ton and our offense was scoring like 10 runs a game?) But not in the form of a catcher who makes a ton of money and who doesn't have any power. I'm thinking more like Hairston or Cattalanato (sp).Power Schmower. He gets on base at a .400 clip. I don't care if he NEVER hits a HR.

FireReinsdorf
11-11-2004, 04:33 PM
A team should never choose a catcher because of OBP or any other offensive category. The most important attributes for a catcher are defense and the ability to work with pitchers.

The few catchers who are able to do both are rare and should be appreciated. It would be great to get another Fisk, but if I had to choose between (the real) Pudge's bat and glove, I'd go with the glove.

lowesox
11-11-2004, 04:36 PM
I keep reading posts saying why the Sox should NOT get Kendall, and none of them have convinced me.
So here's my take on all the rumours about Kendall, RJ and Omar Vizquel. I think any of these guys could be good acqusitions depending on what we give up for them. My concern, is that we have an overly aggressive GM who's willing to give up anything to get the guy he wants. Garland and Konerko for Kendall? Please, there are 8 year olds out there that could tell you how ridiculous that would be. Vizquel for 10million/2years. Completetly insane. Each one of those guys has a major issue. Pirates fans have been dying to get rid of Kendall and his contract for years. Randy Johnson is getting old and could snap at any second. And Vizquel is, well, see Randy Johnson. And the worst part is, if Kenny gets one of these guys and they get hurt or don't perform Kenny defenders will say, "Well how should Kenny have known."

We shouldn't be trying to make a splash and get the biggest name. And we shouldn't be spending money stupidly just because JR upped the payroll. We should be looking into smart, calculated additions like Hairston or Cattalonato (sp?).

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 04:42 PM
So here's my take on all the rumours about Kendall, RJ and Omar Vizquel. I think any of these guys could be good acqusitions depending on what we give up for them. My concern, is that we have an overly aggressive GM who's willing to give up anything to get the guy he wants. Garland and Konerko for Kendall? Please, there are 8 year olds out there that could tell you how ridiculous that would be. Vizquel for 10million/2years. Completetly insane. Each one of those guys has a major issue. Pirates fans have been dying to get rid of Kendall and his contract for years. Randy Johnson is getting old and could snap at any second. And Vizquel is, well, see Randy Johnson. And the worst part is, if Kenny gets one of these guys and they get hurt or don't perform Kenny defenders will say, "Well how should Kenny have known."

We shouldn't be trying to make a splash and get the biggest name. And we shouldn't be spending money stupidly just because JR upped the payroll. We should be looking into smart, calculated additions like Hairston or Cattalonato (sp?).
Whether that Kendall deal is a good one depends entirely on how much $$$ the pirates send over. If they get talent like Konerko & Garland, I can assume that it would be a lot (or they'd be including another player or 2). If you could effectively trade Koney+Jon and get Kendall and have $$$ to sign an FA pitcher, that would be awesome, and would still leave you payroll room to go after a bigger name hitter or reliever.

And Catalanotto resigned with he Jays, ain't going anywhere. Hairston might be available, but he's not an FA and is certainly not as proven as a hitter as Kendall.

Randar68
11-11-2004, 05:07 PM
Power Schmower. He gets on base at a .400 clip. I don't care if he NEVER hits a HR.
Bingo. After these last few years of inept OBP and GIDP's, I still can't believe people value Konerko's ass at 1B over a guy like Kendall and his .400 OBP and some decent speed on the bases out of the catcher's position...

What team have you been watching the last 3 years. We hit tons of HR's. Unfortunately, solo HR's don't win many games, folks! WAKE UP.

Randar68
11-11-2004, 05:11 PM
Hairston might be available, but he's not an FA and is certainly not as proven as a hitter as Kendall.
How would 1 preclude the other? Hairston, Kendall and Vizquel would reshape 1/3rd of the order in a good way, IMO, especially if you could still retain Frank, CLee, Rowand and Carl. You've got much better OBP and contact hitters surrounded by a nice core in the middle still.

Hairston
Vizquel
Kendall
Frank
CLee
Carl
Rowand
Gload
Crede

That's a good lineup IMO. 2 .400 OBP guys as your 3/4 hitters and solid contact guys all around. OBP at the top of the order and defense up the middle? Sounds like a plan!

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 05:12 PM
Bingo. After these last few years of inept OBP and GIDP's, I still can't believe people value Konerko's ass at 1B over a guy like Kendall and his .400 OBP and some decent speed on the bases out of the catcher's position...

What team have you been watching the last 3 years. We hit tons of HR's. Unfortunately, solo HR's don't win many games, folks! WAKE UP.I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Konerko has been a very valuable part of this team. You need both on-base guys and guys to drive them in. I just can't understand people agreeing that they need high OBP players, then turning their nose up at a guy like Kendall because he doesn't have enough power.

1917
11-11-2004, 05:13 PM
The deal isn't dead, don't be surprised if the Pirates call Kenny later on down the road...when you have a talent like Kendall you don't go after the first offer thrown at you, he is going to shop him and see what they can get. The market doesn't open until Midnight guys, lets not get too excited, we got a good month or 2 of moves and rumors.....I do think Visquel will be a Sox tomorrow and I think we won't be happy about the price....other teams got real interested in him and I think Kenny wanted to lock him up.....but I think it will be the 2 year 8 mil

santo=dorf
11-11-2004, 05:17 PM
Todd Ritchie is a FA. Maybe we can sign him and package him to Pittsburg for Josh Fogg, Kip Wells, and Jason Kendall.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 05:17 PM
How would 1 preclude the other? Hairston, Kendall and Vizquel would reshape 1/3rd of the order in a good way, IMO, especially if you could still retain Frank, CLee, Rowand and Carl. You've got much better OBP and contact hitters surrounded by a nice core in the middle still.

Hairston
Vizquel
Kendall
Frank
CLee
Carl
Rowand
Gload
Crede

That's a good lineup IMO. 2 .400 OBP guys as your 3/4 hitters and solid contact guys all around. OBP at the top of the order and defense up the middle? Sounds like a plan!
I like the lineup (although I might move Vizquel down to 8 & keep Frank 3d) , I'm just convinced that you can get hariston without giving up a vlauable prospect. If you were to include Garland, maybe. Prior to their resigning Palmeiro - Konerko might have interested them. but if oyu trade Jon & paulie to get Kendall, how do you get Hairston? He's young & cheap - which means expensive in trade.

hitlesswonder
11-11-2004, 05:28 PM
Bingo. After these last few years of inept OBP and GIDP's, I still can't believe people value Konerko's ass at 1B over a guy like Kendall and his .400 OBP and some decent speed on the bases out of the catcher's position...

I agree. Getting that kind of production out of a C is a huge advantage. It's hard to find one that can hit, let alone provide the Sox with exactly the kind of production they need. It's much easier to find a 1B with a little pop for cheap. Kendall would be great (assuming the Sox don't pick up th whole salary). Too bad it sounds like it won't happen.

I know Hairston is popular on this board, and I think he's alright, but his career OBP is nowhere near Kendall's (.334 vs. .387). If you look at Hairston's numbers, before last season he didn't perform a whole lot better than Willie Harris did last year. And Hairston seems injury-prone. I wouldn't trade that much to get him.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2004, 05:57 PM
Dorf:

You must not have been keeping up. Wells missed starts last year because of losing the feeling in some of the fingers of his pitching hand. Supposedly he was going to have an operation, the doctors think he may have a circulatory problem a la Roberto Hernandez many years ago.

Lip

1917
11-11-2004, 06:04 PM
Plus I really have a feeling the Sox will get Damien Miller and get him cheap

Jjav829
11-11-2004, 06:41 PM
How would 1 preclude the other? Hairston, Kendall and Vizquel would reshape 1/3rd of the order in a good way, IMO, especially if you could still retain Frank, CLee, Rowand and Carl. You've got much better OBP and contact hitters surrounded by a nice core in the middle still.

Hairston
Vizquel
Kendall
Frank
CLee
Carl
Rowand
Gload
Crede

That's a good lineup IMO. 2 .400 OBP guys as your 3/4 hitters and solid contact guys all around. OBP at the top of the order and defense up the middle? Sounds like a plan!
Hell, take Hairston out and that's still not too bad of a lineup. Let's say..

Kendall
Vizquel
Frank
Lee
Everett
Rowand
Gload
Crede
Uribe (just to turn the lineup over a bit better)

I think that would be a fine team all around. We'd still lack a little speed, but nonetheless, the offense should be fine and the defense up the middle would be improved. Everett would be a liability in right, but overall the defense is good.

Maybe I'm just being a little bit biased since Kendall has been one of my favorite non-White Sox for the past 5 or so years, but I would love to see him here. I really hope Kenny pursues him hard, and can work out a good trade.

dickallen15
11-11-2004, 07:55 PM
KW is not going to give up Konerko and Garland for Kendall. Its part of the package for Johnson.

Chisoxfn
11-11-2004, 08:10 PM
KW is not going to give up Konerko and Garland for Kendall. Its part of the package for Johnson. Could their be a three way deal?

Otherwise the Sox would have to be getting something else in exchange.

soltrain21
11-11-2004, 08:39 PM
Could their be a three way deal?

Otherwise the Sox would have to be getting something else in exchange.


Actually, it is a five way deal. By the end of it we have Johnson, Kendall, Mulder, and Juan Pierre. We had to throw in Borchard to sweeten up the deal.

kittle42
11-11-2004, 08:48 PM
Could their be
:o:

Mohoney
11-11-2004, 08:51 PM
What I want to know is, where would Pittsburgh be getting the money not only to pick up Konerko's $8 million+ and whatever Garland gets from an arbitrator, but also eat a significant part of Kendall's contract?

Did their revenue sharing check get there yet?

This whole idea of the Pirates dealing Kendall seems destined to fail, unless the Yankees trade Posada and come calling for Kendall.

OurBitchinMinny
11-11-2004, 09:43 PM
Heard on the Score about an hour ago that Kendall wasn't going to happen. The Pirates rejected a trade which was said to have included Konerko and Garland.

Thank you Pittsburgh. Kendall's monstous contract would cripple this team for the next few years. Also, what offense does Kendall provide us with besides his OBP? I'm a moneyball guy but I also know that we need guys to drive runs in and besides Lee, Konerko is the only guy on this team who can.

We need to trade Konerko this year while his value is highest, but we need to get something decent in return. Now if the Pirates threw in one of their young players (Jack Wilson, Perez) to soften the blow of Kendall's contract, I would say go for it.
Thank God. Garland and konerko is far far too much to give up for kendall. I might consider getting rid of garland, but not both for a decent catcher

davenicholson
11-12-2004, 08:42 AM
I also know that we need guys to drive runs in and besides Lee, Konerko is the only guy on this team who can.

I heard that Frank Thomas guy is pretty good.

jabrch
11-12-2004, 09:01 AM
Not even Kenny would be stupid enough to offer Garland and Konerko for Kendall. Surely, there must have been a stud Pirate he wanted to include in the trade because I wouldn't trade neither Konerko or Garland by themselves for Kendall.

Then again, thinking back to the Anaheim trade that never happened, Kenny might be that stupid... We need a new GM.

Cheap and Stupid...same old song and dance

mweflen
11-12-2004, 10:52 AM
Career .306 average and .387 OBP.


Umm... why don't we want this guy?

Ol' No. 2
11-12-2004, 10:54 AM
Career .306 average and .387 OBP.


Umm... why don't we want this guy?Doesn't hit enough home runs. Everyone knows that's the way to build a winning team. It's worked so well for us in the past, hasn't it?

mweflen
11-12-2004, 10:56 AM
Doesn't hit enough home runs. Everyone knows that's the way to build a winning team. It's worked so well for us in the past, hasn't it?Shoot, he'll probably hit 20 if he comes to the Cell. Will that satisfy the naysayers?

This is called killing two birds with one stone - we get a credible leadoff hitter as well as a credible catcher.

I'm tired of killing no birds with handfulls of stones. Make it happen, KW!

gosox41
11-12-2004, 11:29 AM
Heard on the Score about an hour ago that Kendall wasn't going to happen. The Pirates rejected a trade which was said to have included Konerko and Garland.

Thank you Pittsburgh. Kendall's monstous contract would cripple this team for the next few years. Also, what offense does Kendall provide us with besides his OBP? I'm a moneyball guy but I also know that we need guys to drive runs in and besides Lee, Konerko is the only guy on this team who can.

We need to trade Konerko this year while his value is highest, but we need to get something decent in return. Now if the Pirates threw in one of their young players (Jack Wilson, Perez) to soften the blow of Kendall's contract, I would say go for it.
So let me get this straight. Kendall is valued the same as RJ minus a prospect?

Does anone see a problem with that?



Bob

Flight #24
11-12-2004, 11:33 AM
So let me get this straight. Kendall is valued the same as RJ minus a prospect?

Does anone see a problem with that?



Bob
Depends on the cash involved. Straight up it's a huge problem.
Assume PIT sends cash over to make him cost 5mil/yr v. RJ's 10mil and it's
Kendall+5mil +Prospect v. RJ - that's a closer call.

Jjav829
11-12-2004, 11:35 AM
FWIW, Levine said on his morning update that he thinks the favorite to be the Sox catcher next year is Jason Kendall. He said the Sox want Pittsburgh to eat half of his salary and that's the sticking point right now.

Flight #24
11-12-2004, 11:53 AM
FWIW, Levine said on his morning update that he thinks the favorite to be the Sox catcher next year is Jason Kendall. He said the Sox want Pittsburgh to eat half of his salary and that's the sticking point right now.
Any word on who we'd trade to get him and if the no-trade is an issue?

Jjav829
11-12-2004, 12:06 PM
Any word on who we'd trade to get him and if the no-trade is an issue?He had nothing on either. I would hope that Kenny has some sort of an idea about whether Kendall would come here because he continues discussions. The past two days I've heard him talk he has seemed confident that Kendall might be here next year.

Flight #24
11-12-2004, 12:15 PM
He had nothing on either. I would hope that Kenny has some sort of an idea about whether Kendall would come here because he continues discussions. The past two days I've heard him talk he has seemed confident that Kendall might be here next year.
You have to figure it either doesn't include Koney/Garland or that he's playing off RJ v. Kendall. I think I'd take Kendall+salary relief+Anderson over RJ.

If PIT pays half of Kendall's deal, you'd havve to think they'll get some talent in return. If you assume Garland will make 3-4mil in arb, then maybe theyd deal him for Kendall+cash at a net increase of $1mil in salary. Then you go get a new #4 and go with Grilli or deal Konerko for a pitcher (not named RJ unless they agree not to take any major prospects).

nodiggity59
11-12-2004, 12:27 PM
I would like this a lot. I'd be willing to pay Kendall up to $7mil per year. If we dump Garland + a prospect on him, that should be enough. Having a 1-2 punch of Kendall - Vizquel really solidifies the top of our order. Trade Koney for a starter and add a pen arm and we're pretty good.

Kendall
Vizquel
Thomas
Lee
Everret
Rowand
Gload
Crede
Uribe

Crede Uribe is a pretty nice 8-9, they'll have a minimum 40 homers btwn them. This lineup still has 6 20 homer guys, Thomas and Lee should be good for 30. We'll be more consistent with the contact hitting Kendall, Vizquel, and Gload.

The rotation could be tough though.

Buerhle
Garcia
Contreras
Hudson/Vazquez???
Cheap #5 (Hopefully not Grilli)

soxtalker
11-12-2004, 12:47 PM
Anyone know of a Pittsburgh board that is similar to WSI? It would be nice to hear their fans' perspective on such a deal.

beck72
11-12-2004, 12:51 PM
Pittsburgh should be willing to pay 1/3 [in year's past, Pitt. was willing to pay near 1/2 of his even larger contract] of Kendall's remaining $34 mill, which would be $11.22 mill. The sox would be responsible for $22.78 mill over 3 yrs, or $7.6 million a yr.

Is $7.6 mill a lot to pay for a top leadoff hitter, who can hit .300 in his sleep, post a near .400 OBP, and who epitomizes a "grinder"?

Kendall--YES!

beck72
11-12-2004, 12:56 PM
FWIW, Levine said on his morning update that he thinks the favorite to be the Sox catcher next year is Jason Kendall. He said the Sox want Pittsburgh to eat half of his salary and that's the sticking point right now.Kendall would be a bargain at $5.7 mill a yr for 3 yrs [having Pitt. pay half his remaining salary]. This 1/2 shouldn't be a deal breaker, but likely a starting point. That a possible trade has even gotten to this point, during meetings that have served as starting points for trades in the past and not for many real deals, sounds optimistic.

mdep524
11-12-2004, 01:29 PM
I would like this a lot. I'd be willing to pay Kendall up to $7mil per year. If we dump Garland + a prospect on him, that should be enough. Having a 1-2 punch of Kendall - Vizquel really solidifies the top of our order. Trade Koney for a starter and add a pen arm and we're pretty good.

Kendall
Vizquel
Thomas
Lee
Everret
Rowand
Gload
Crede
Uribe

Crede Uribe is a pretty nice 8-9, they'll have a minimum 40 homers btwn them. This lineup still has 6 20 homer guys, Thomas and Lee should be good for 30. We'll be more consistent with the contact hitting Kendall, Vizquel, and Gload.

The rotation could be tough though.

Buerhle
Garcia
Contreras
Hudson/Vazquez???
Cheap #5 (Hopefully not Grilli)
nodiggity59, I envison the exact same line up and trade scenarios. Garland plus prospects for Kendall, and then a package centered around Konerko for Hudson, Mulder or Vazquez. That is a very good baseball team, and its not far fetched.

Randar68
11-12-2004, 01:39 PM
He had nothing on either. I would hope that Kenny has some sort of an idea about whether Kendall would come here because he continues discussions. The past two days I've heard him talk he has seemed confident that Kendall might be here next year.
I think there are a couple plans:

A) Get RJ or a legit #1 ace type guy, sign a Vizquel and Damien Miller types and add an arm in the BP...

B) Get a #3 or #4 type guy to push Garland/Contreras to #4/#5 and add a couple arms in the Bullpen and go for an impact-type player with some speed and OBP to add to the order. Be it Kendall, Beltran, whoever...

mweflen
11-12-2004, 01:58 PM
If one of the three "trade bait" players must go to secure Kendall, I hope it's Konerko. Here's why: 1) We have a servicable replacement for him in Gload (will probably hit .280 plus with minor power and far fewer GIDP's). 2)We DEFINITELY can't spare another outfielder in Lee. 3) Trading young pitching for offense seems foolish.

My hope is that we get a discounted Kendall (1/3 is fine from PIT) for Konerko plus prospects. (oh, if only they'd take Borchard off our hands...)

Then, we sign Jon Lieber as a FA SP for 6 or 7 mil.

From all accounts, Vizquel is a done deal for an outrageous 5 mil per season.

So we have: Garcia/Buehrle/Lieber/Contreras/Garland
and:
C Kendall
CF Rowand
LF Lee
DH Thomas/Everett
RF Everett/Perez
2B Uribe
1B Gload
3B Crede
SS Vizquel

for around the 75 million figure that's been rumored. We still have young pitching (No RJ, please!) and young offensive talent (Kendall in place of Konerko). We also have a real leadoff hitter (which we haven't had for years), a real catcher, and a veteran "grinder" SS who is a lock to hit more than .220.

I think this team can make the playoffs!