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View Full Version : Ordonez said he wanted to play for the Mets or Cubs.


Justafan
11-11-2004, 08:40 AM
I never knew this. Talk about a dagger.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-maggs11.html

soxnut
11-11-2004, 08:47 AM
I'm not surprised about the Cubs thing at all. I said it before --- months ago. I could just see it coming. The Cubs and their fans capitalizing on the "Magglio chant." It will become a nationwide phenomena.

We'll see t-shirts all over the country with the chant on it. They'll come up with some new song that will have the chant in it. The whole new sensation will make Sox fan's stomachs turn, knowing that should be our guy and our capitalization. Oh well.:angry: :whiner: :(:

John Barrett
11-11-2004, 08:49 AM
Forget maggs he has turned into a greed monster... i hope his knee falls off

OEO Magglio
11-11-2004, 09:01 AM
It's time to move on and forget about Magglio, that being said I really don't want to see him end up with the flubs.

samram
11-11-2004, 09:03 AM
I'm still having a hard time buying the idea that Maggs went to Vienna to have "very minor surgery." There's no doubt Boras is hiding the ball (at least, until after the Sox can make the most informed decision) on this one, but that's the owners' responsibility to figure out what the situation really is.


As for his going to the Cubs, I don't care if he does. However, if I were him, I would look in that clubhouse and realize that it's a drastically different bunch of personalities than those on the Sox. They seem like a whiny bunch that does a lot of infighting, and Maggs would be smart to question whether a guy with his personality would be happy there. I'm not sure about the Mets' clubhouse, but I would do the same thing. This can't be all about money, especially where most offers will be fairly similar.

Kogs35
11-11-2004, 09:12 AM
let him go where ever he wants. he will play 1 game and hurt him self agian. he's a greedy drillrod and i can careless about the person. he only switched agents cause he is still hurt boras is lying to gm's and i cant wait for it to bite him in the tush. screw u maggs and screw you boras!!!!!

Kilroy
11-11-2004, 09:14 AM
I'm still having a hard time buying the idea that Maggs went to Vienna to have "very minor surgery." There's no doubt Boras is hiding the ball (at least, until after the Sox can make the most informed decision) on this one, but that's the owners' responsibility to figure out what the situation really is.
There's no doubt about this. If he's so healthy, then let him take a physical and prove it. He came back after the first surgery, ran around, and generally looked fine. So showcasing his knee, unless its with x-rays and examinations, won't mean a thing. He'll get signed, keep his mouth shut, and then develop problems in ST. And if the Sox were to offer arbitration, he'd accept it in a New York minute. Wash your hands White Sox.

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 09:30 AM
You do realize that Boras the puppetmaster is the one provoking Magglio to say this - mainly because he has the Hendry bent over and --- is taking advantage of the Cubs. I mean, how else could Maddux have commanded those dollars this off season?

Justafan
11-11-2004, 09:34 AM
You do realize that Boras the puppetmaster is the one provoking Magglio to say this - mainly because he has the Hendry bent over and --- is taking advantage of the Cubs. I mean, how else could Maddux have commanded those dollars this off season?
Maddux? Last I checked he was signed as a 5th starter and won 16 games again. I think the fact that Maddux is a lock for 16 wins a year and knows a thing or three about pitching may also have something to do with the dollars he commanded.

kittle42
11-11-2004, 09:44 AM
I'm tired of all this "Magglio is greedy" stuff. This is sports. Look around.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 09:47 AM
There's no doubt about this. If he's so healthy, then let him take a physical and prove it. He came back after the first surgery, ran around, and generally looked fine. So showcasing his knee, unless its with x-rays and examinations, won't mean a thing. He'll get signed, keep his mouth shut, and then develop problems in ST. And if the Sox were to offer arbitration, he'd accept it in a New York minute. Wash your hands White Sox.Does anyone know if the Sox have any actual, enforcable rights to a medical examination? It would seem that they would have some rights to that before the arbitration deadline, but it only counts if it's written down somewhere and they have some means for enforcing it.

munchman33
11-11-2004, 09:57 AM
I'm tired of all this "Magglio is greedy" stuff. This is sports. Look around.
Me too. I'm more of a "Magglio lied to us" proponent.

cornball
11-11-2004, 10:16 AM
Does anyone know if the Sox have any actual, enforcable rights to a medical examination? It would seem that they would have some rights to that before the arbitration deadline, but it only counts if it's written down somewhere and they have some means for enforcing it.
Seems like this is an extraordinary situation. How can they decide to offer arbitration without any info, regarding his health and losing a possible draft pick.

Personally, based on what I read coupled with the attitude of Mags and his agent...I don't want him back. I just don't feel like the Sox are being treated fairly.

fquaye149
11-11-2004, 10:28 AM
you know....you think instead of saying "i want to play for mets or cubs" he'd say:

"i want to play baseball again. ever."

because at this point that's a pipe dream, i would guess. VIENNA?

mike squires
11-11-2004, 10:38 AM
Imagine this if you will...A beautiful Sunday afternoon at the ball yard. WhiteSox/Cubs...Gene with a much less enthusiastic tone quite says, "now batting for the Cubs number 35, magglio ordonez. And a sea of boos rain down all over Comiskey. That would be strange. Then again, we've seen it with Sammy.

Dolanski
11-11-2004, 10:42 AM
I don't think you can say Magglio is greedy. His number one priority are to his family, so it is his job to maximize the amount of money he can make. You can't blame a guy for that.

At the same time, the whole thing is so fishy...He goes to Vienna for "minor surgery." Why not go to the same doctors who looked at your knee before? Why not go to someone in the US? If you ask me, he had major surgery or a radical procedure in order to get him able to play again. Fine then, but be honest and upfront about it.

With the way Boras is proceeding with Maggs, I can't blame Kenny for not going after him. Let the team doctors examine him. Who would want to buy damaged goods? Makes sense to me and everyone else. But Boras wants to play his games to get people to overpay and overbid. He is slimy, but he gets the job done and gets his clients paid. His methods are sketchy, but he does what he is supposed to and maximizes the salary for his clients. Just don't ask him about scruples or ethics...

My guess is Maggs will sign somewhere for a year with an option because no one will give him a long term deal. If he performs he gets his payday next year or the year following. And in the event someone signs him for a long term deal, that's almost guaranteeing that he has another injury or isn't able to play. I won't say I would enjoy seeing Maggs get hurt (he was one of my favorites), but when and if it does happen, I will be glad the Sox passed on him.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 10:42 AM
Seems like this is an extraordinary situation. How can they decide to offer arbitration without any info, regarding his health and losing a possible draft pick.

Personally, based on what I read coupled with the attitude of Mags and his agent...I don't want him back. I just don't feel like the Sox are being treated fairly.Looked at from a different perspective, if they did offer arbitration, and it turned out he had a serious injury that they hid and he couldn't play, could they try to void the contract on the basis of fraud?

1917
11-11-2004, 10:46 AM
Well all talk about the Scrubs is that they are going to be stuck with Sosa and his contract, and are going to invest a lot og money in locking up Aramis Rameriez so signing Maggs to the contract he and Boras wants is unlikely. I would be really surprised if he is wears a Cubs uniform next year, but God if he does....

DrCrawdad
11-11-2004, 10:51 AM
So Magglio wouldn't mind playing for the Mets or the Cubs, two teams near the top as far as payroll? Jeez, what a revelation!


Magglio would play for the Springfield Isotopes if they were willing to (over) pay him want he wants.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 11:15 AM
So Magglio wouldn't mind playing for the Mets or the Cubs, two teams near the top as far as payroll? Jeez, what a revelation!


Magglio would play for the Springfield Isotopes if they were willing to (over) pay him want he wants.Or at least he (Boras) wants everyone to think the Springfield Isotopes are offering big money. Can't really blame him. Everyone should know how the game is played by now.

Kogs35
11-11-2004, 11:20 AM
Everyone should know how the game is played by now.
thats the problem. the owners still dont know how to play the game. until they get smart and tell boras NO!!! then the problems get solved and maggs and every1 else wont get these monster contracts

Justafan
11-11-2004, 11:20 AM
People, you can't sit here and say that Ordonez, putting on a Cubs jersey at a press conference, would not be a public relations DISASTER.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 11:24 AM
thats the problem. the owners still dont know how to play the game. until they get smart and tell boras NO!!! then the problems get solved and maggs and every1 else wont get these monster contractsSo Boras is the reason for the large contracts? Get serious.

kittle42
11-11-2004, 11:26 AM
As much as I may not be a fan of the Sox brass, I really do think that not signing Ordonez will be a good move in the end.

1917
11-11-2004, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=Dolanski]I don't think you can say Magglio is greedy. His number one priority are to his family, so it is his job to maximize the amount of money he can make. You can't blame a guy for that.

I'm sorry man but thats BS. The White Sox have paid him close to 35 million Dollars over the last 8 years, not including millions more in endorsements, so I don't the Ordonez family is in financial dismay. It's about keeping up wit the Jones...Vlade got paid that so why can't I.....give me 35 million and I guarentee that my Family, My kids, grand kids, great grandkids, will live happily. Nothing on you Dolanski but I HATE it when multi million dollar atheletes pull the "I got a family to support"...Well so do I and I do it on just a tad less then 14 million a year...maybe 13,940,000 less!

Uncle_Patrick
11-11-2004, 12:01 PM
At this point, I don't even care what his reasons are. He doesn't want to play for the White Sox. That seems pretty obvious. Bye, bye, Maggs. Its been fun.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2004, 12:06 PM
1917:

With respect you are also (I assume) not one of the top 1% of your field are you? These guys have beat odds of say 100,000 to 1 to get to where they are..the major leagues, with only about 800 people at that level. They 'deserve' to get what the market will bear and what they have earned by the work they put in to get into that top 1%.

Do ballplayers deserve the money they get? Probably not when you look at what police, fire fighters and teachers make but also remember they are ENTERTAINERS. I don't see the hue and cry over what Tom Cruise makes per movie or what U2 brings in for say twelve concerts...I never understood that discrepency. Ballplayers are 'greedy,' but actors and musicians aren't....hmmm.

As far as the Sox Mags situation, without being allowed to examine that knee the Sox have no choice but to let him go. They simply can not take that chance as long as ownership hamstrings them with the payroll they currently have. If they would be wrong, they would have zero room to correct the problem by bringing in more talent.

I am sorry, very sorry, to lose a good player and a guy who NEVER embarassed himself, the Sox or the city of Chicago but unlike some of the posters I don't wish him ill in his future.

Lip

TDog
11-11-2004, 12:08 PM
If Ordonez went to the Cubs, the Tribune could run a "Magglio watch" and blame his degenerative knee injury on a curse.

mikesouthside
11-11-2004, 12:22 PM
Let's just hope that NEVER HAPPENS.....Maggs standing in that dead grass spot where Sammy stood all game would drive me nuts. I can see it now....First home Cubs game...Sosa gone and Maggs tries to be a fan favorite right off the bat by bolting out of the dugout running full speed to right and......pop there goes the knee. Cursed again. I love Maggs. He was a solid player and a good person. I wish him well, but if you didn't want to come back then you should of said that from day one. :angry:

Brian26
11-11-2004, 12:23 PM
I never knew this. Talk about a dagger.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-maggs11.html

Geezuz. If Mags goes to the Cubs, it's going to make life painful.

1917
11-11-2004, 12:24 PM
1917:

With respect you are also (I assume) not one of the top 1% of your field are you? These guys have beat odds of say 100,000 to 1 to get to where they are..the major leagues, with only about 800 people at that level. They 'deserve' to get what the market will bear and what they have earned by the work they put in to get into that top 1%.

Do ballplayers deserve the money they get? Probably not when you look at what police, fire fighters and teachers make but also remember they are ENTERTAINERS. I don't see the hue and cry over what Tom Cruise makes per movie or what U2 brings in for say twelve concerts...I never understood that discrepency. Ballplayers are 'greedy,' but actors and musicians aren't....hmmm.

As far as the Sox Mags situation, without being allowed to examine that knee the Sox have no choice but to let him go. They simply can not take that chance as long as ownership hamstrings them with the payroll they currently have. If they would be wrong, they would have zero room to correct the problem by bringing in more talent.

I am sorry, very sorry, to lose a good player and a guy who NEVER embarassed himself, the Sox or the city of Chicago but unlike some of the posters I don't wish him ill in his future.

Lip
Lip,
You are correct I'm not in the 1%. And your post was well said and well put. I too don't wish Maggs any short comings and he worked his but off to get where he is at. My point was don't say he has a family to think about and support and use that as an excuse to hold out for more money. If you can't support a family on 14 million, then you will get no pity from me! If someone said Tom Cruise turned down making Top Gun 2 because they didn't offer him enough money, he would get the same treatment from me....I don't think Maggs used the family excuse, it was just a reaction I had to the poster saying it.....just always rubs me wrong when these milllionars use that line! But you are right, Maggs was a class act while he was here and I wish him well...but if he goes to the Cubs, and he comes to the Cell and comes to the plate, i will clap one time for a "Thanks" and then go right into OEO YOU SUCK! :smile:

DrCrawdad
11-11-2004, 12:27 PM
Or at least he (Boras) wants everyone to think the Springfield Isotopes are offering big money. Can't really blame him. Everyone should know how the game is played by now.

True. My issue is though that so many people seemingly can't see thru the players and agents simply positioning themselves for the biggest possible payday.

A few weeks ago Carlos Beltran was asked, IIRC, by a member of the Chicago media if Beltran would be interested in playing for the Cubs. So Beltran of course answers yes. But what the heck is Beltran going to say? Of course Beltran is interested in playing for the Cubs, as he's interested in keeping every avenue open, especially with the big payroll teams.

Magglio too is only answering questions out of his own self-interest, not that there is anything wrong with that. However, when the players and their agents give these answers the reaction of many people is as though they've signed or as if they said, 'I'm only interested in playing for the Cubs and won't be taking any other offers...'

I_Liked_Manuel
11-11-2004, 12:45 PM
i totally understand that maggs is trying to get the most possible money. hell, i'd do it too if i could. that being said, if he goes to the cubs, i hope he never walks again.

eshunn2001
11-11-2004, 12:59 PM
i totally understand that maggs is trying to get the most possible money. hell, i'd do it too if i could. that being said, if he goes to the cubs, i hope he never walks again.
That is freakin harsh. But I agree. If he signs with the Cubs I hope his knee never recovers. I could just see the Magglio love fest if he signs with the Cubs. It sickens me

Justafan
11-11-2004, 01:05 PM
That is freakin harsh. But I agree. If he signs with the Cubs I hope his knee never recovers. I could just see the Magglio love fest if he signs with the Cubs. It sickens me
The local papers would say:

"Where I always wanted to be". Followed by a picture of him putting on a Cubs jersey.

beckett21
11-11-2004, 01:11 PM
1917:

With respect you are also (I assume) not one of the top 1% of your field are you? These guys have beat odds of say 100,000 to 1 to get to where they are..the major leagues, with only about 800 people at that level. They 'deserve' to get what the market will bear and what they have earned by the work they put in to get into that top 1%.

Do ballplayers deserve the money they get? Probably not when you look at what police, fire fighters and teachers make but also remember they are ENTERTAINERS. I don't see the hue and cry over what Tom Cruise makes per movie or what U2 brings in for say twelve concerts...I never understood that discrepency. Ballplayers are 'greedy,' but actors and musicians aren't....hmmm.

As far as the Sox Mags situation, without being allowed to examine that knee the Sox have no choice but to let him go. They simply can not take that chance as long as ownership hamstrings them with the payroll they currently have. If they would be wrong, they would have zero room to correct the problem by bringing in more talent.

I am sorry, very sorry, to lose a good player and a guy who NEVER embarassed himself, the Sox or the city of Chicago but unlike some of the posters I don't wish him ill in his future.

Lip

Lip for once I agree with you 100%.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Well stated on all counts.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 01:17 PM
The local papers would say:

"Where I always wanted to be". Followed by a picture of him putting on a Cubs jersey.Relax. The Cubs have other needs to fill, SS, LF, 2B and the bullpen being at the top of the list. The only way they could entertain the possibility of signing Maggs is if they rid themselves of the albatross in RF. Who in their right mind would take that contract on? The only way that could happen is in a turkey swap, where the Cubs take on a bad contract from another team, kinda like they did with Todd Hundley. And that doesn't really free up money in 2005.

Maybe not impossible, but a long shot.

eshunn2001
11-11-2004, 01:30 PM
Relax. The Cubs have other needs to fill, SS, LF, 2B and the bullpen being at the top of the list. The only way they could entertain the possibility of signing Maggs is if they rid themselves of the albatross in RF. Who in their right mind would take that contract on? The only way that could happen is in a turkey swap, where the Cubs take on a bad contract from another team, kinda like they did with Todd Hundley. And that doesn't really free up money in 2005.

Maybe not impossible, but a long shot.
They could use the 11 mil they were using for Alou. :angry: If it does happen I will have a new MOST HATED PLAYER. And will burn his name off the back of my jersey.

Hangar18
11-11-2004, 03:39 PM
People, you can't sit here and say that Ordonez, putting on a Cubs jersey at a press conference, would not be a public relations DISATER.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! the amount of "bad" press the SOX get, and "GOOD" press the other team gets will COST the sox (hear that jerry) more than money can measure ..... This will be just another in a long line of PR DISASTERS suffered by this team .......... under the skillful leadership of a certain JERRY REIN$DORF. The amount of $$$$$ he "Saves" not signing Maggs and letting him fall to the cubs, will take 10 X that amount in PR costs just to offset this blunder. The SOX should just offer him arbitration. Theyd stand to WIN seeing as how he was hurt all year.

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 03:43 PM
Maddux? Last I checked he was signed as a 5th starter and won 16 games again. I think the fact that Maddux is a lock for 16 wins a year and knows a thing or three about pitching may also have something to do with the dollars he commanded.
Sure Maddux was worth his $6 million last year, but I am from the school of Rob Neyer. I really don't believe the signing was a good one. Three years for $6, $9 and $9 - to me - is not a good deal for any team. The Cubs were over the nostalgia barrel. he may have won 16 games, but he lost 11 and those are his numbers at 38. Maddux will be 39 and 40 over the course of the next two $9 million dollar seasons. Essentially, Hendry paid for Maddux in hopes to use him as that 4th starter so that the Cubs could win it all in 2004.

Over the last four years, Maddux breaks down like this (no pun intended):

2004 - 16-11, 151 K, 4.02 ERA (1.18 WHIP)
2003 - 16-11, 124 K, 3.96 ERA
2002 - 16-6, 118 K, 2.62 ERA
2001 - 17-11, 173 K, 3.05 ERA

With those numbers, a guy like Maddux would be worth $9 Million a year to be a fourth or fifth starter if he were in his lower to mid thirties. Maddux is on the wrong side of 35, and the trend shows that his numbers will get worse. He's not a power pitcher like Unit, Clemens or Nolan Ryan that were able to pitch into their forties effectively due to their ability to score the strikeout.

If you ask me, a 39 year old pitcher who was once great that has shown signs of decline is not worth $9 million a year regardless of where he pitches in the rotation.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 03:44 PM
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! the amount of "bad" press the SOX get, and "GOOD" press the other team gets will COST the sox (hear that jerry) more than money can measure ..... This will be just another in a long line of PR DISASTERS suffered by this team .......... under the skillful leadership of a certain JERRY REIN$DORF. The amount of $$$$$ he "Saves" not signing Maggs and letting him fall to the cubs, will take 10 X that amount in PR costs just to offset this blunder. The SOX should just offer him arbitration. Theyd stand to WIN seeing as how he was hurt all year.
Hangar - you really think they should offer him arb withough examining his knee? What would you say if he accepted it and then sat out the year rehabbing? By rule, he'd make no less than 11mil to sit if he accepted arbitration.

Unless you think the Sox can and should plan on just throwing away 11mil, there's no way they can offer him arbitration without a medical exam first.

Justafan
11-11-2004, 03:48 PM
Sure Maddux was worth his $6 million last year, but I am from the school of Rob Neyer. I really don't believe the signing was a good one. Three years for $6, $9 and $9 - to me - is not a good deal for any team. The Cubs were over the nostalgia barrel. he may have won 16 games, but he lost 11 and those are his numbers at 38. Maddux will be 39 and 40 over the course of the next two $9 million dollar seasons. Essentially, Hendry paid for Maddux in hopes to use him as that 4th starter so that the Cubs could win it all in 2004.



Over the last four years, Maddux breaks down like this (no pun intended):

2004 - 16-11, 151 K, 4.02 ERA (1.18 WHIP)
2003 - 16-11, 124 K, 3.96 ERA
2002 - 16-6, 118 K, 2.62 ERA
2001 - 17-11, 173 K, 3.05 ERA

With those numbers, a guy like Maddux would be worth $9 Million a year to be a fourth or fifth starter if he were in his lower to mid thirties. Maddux is on the wrong side of 35, and the trend shows that his numbers will get worse. He's not a power pitcher like Unit, Clemens or Nolan Ryan that were able to pitch into their forties effectively due to their ability to score the strikeout.

If you ask me, a 39 year old pitcher who was once great that has shown signs of decline is not worth $9 million a year regardless of where he pitches in the rotation.

I know what you are saying, but the Cubs are one of the few teams that can make this kind of deal and not blink an eye at it. Maddux has value far beyond what he does on the bump. A guy who wins 16 games a year and tutors at the same time is a pretty nice luxury to have.

Palehose13
11-11-2004, 03:50 PM
The author of the article states:

The New York Mets have been one of the most aggressive teams at the GM meetings inquiring about Ordonez, who last summer rated the Mets and Cubs among the top teams on his wish list.
When was this? Was this big news and I missed it? IIRC, he was a member of the Chicago White Sox last summer. I assume that I would have heard about him saying last summer that he wanted to play for teh mets or cubs...or maybe I missed it. Someone help me out here.

Justafan
11-11-2004, 03:51 PM
Furthermore, how are you going to feel if Ordonez indeed does sign with the Cubs and all you see are Ordonez jerseys at the cell but in CUBS COLORS?

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 03:52 PM
I don't think you can say Magglio is greedy. His number one priority are to his family, so it is his job to maximize the amount of money he can make. You can't blame a guy for that.
Yes, I do blame the guy!

Here's the thing. If you're talking about a guy who works a blue collar job making $35 thousand a year, I am very sympathetic to him trying to maximize his earning power in the prime of his family's life.

Magglio is a generation removed from poverty. I agree that he should earn the millions that he does, but when we start talking $15 million vs. $17 million or what ever it may be - it's greedy and he's selfish and I do blame him and feel no sorrow when he ruined his chances for the $17 million that he held out for.

We're not talking the difference between affording to buy a new car vs. a used car or live in a house with four bedrooms instead of three or two bedrooms. We're talking about the difference between owning four luxury vehicles vs. three. We're talking about hiring additional maids and butlers and drivers and gardeners. We're talking about an issue of pride instead of earning the most money that he can for his family. It's a status thing instead of one of provision.

End of story. Have fun Cub fans - you just earned yourself another Selfish Sosa.

Justafan
11-11-2004, 04:00 PM
This is amazing!! So lets say the Cubs do not sign Beltran, they already have cut ties with Alou and need a LF. Would Ordonez be willing to play LF for a year and then move back to RF when Sosa is gone? Heck, Sosa might be gone before the winter meetings are over.

I think if they sign Beltran, Ordonez is out of the question. That said, Boras will push heavily for the Cubs to sign Ordonez, if anything, just to stick it to the Sox.

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 04:02 PM
This is amazing!! So lets say the Cubs do not sign Beltran, they already have cut ties with Alou and need a LF. Would Ordonez be willing to play LF for a year and then move back to RF when Sosa is gone? Heck, Sosa might be gone before the winter meetings are over.

I think if they sign Beltran, Ordonez is out of the question. That said, Boras will push heavily for the Cubs to sign Ordonez, if anything, just to stick it to the Sox.
You know though, it would put some heavy pressure for Unkie Jerry to keep up with the Jones and perhaps he would sign Beltran if Mags went north...

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 04:05 PM
Yes, I do blame the guy!

Here's the thing. If you're talking about a guy who works a blue collar job making $35 thousand a year, I am very sympathetic to him trying to maximize his earning power in the prime of his family's life.

Magglio is a generation removed from poverty. I agree that he should earn the millions that he does, but when we start talking $15 million vs. $17 million or what ever it may be - it's greedy and he's selfish and I do blame him and feel no sorrow when he ruined his chances for the $17 million that he held out for.

We're not talking the difference between affording to buy a new car vs. a used car or live in a house with four bedrooms instead of three or two bedrooms. We're talking about the difference between owning four luxury vehicles vs. three. We're talking about hiring additional maids and butlers and drivers and gardeners. We're talking about an issue of pride instead of earning the most money that he can for his family. It's a status thing instead of one of provision.

End of story. Have fun Cub fans - you just earned yourself another Selfish Sosa.What difference does it make how much he earns? If someone offers you more money to do the same job, why would you NOT take it? It may have been a strategic error, for which he will pay, but taking more money that someone is offering does not make you greedy. Not taking it makes you stupid.

kittle42
11-11-2004, 04:06 PM
Yes, I do blame the guy!

Here's the thing. If you're talking about a guy who works a blue collar job making $35 thousand a year, I am very sympathetic to him trying to maximize his earning power in the prime of his family's life.

Magglio is a generation removed from poverty. I agree that he should earn the millions that he does, but when we start talking $15 million vs. $17 million or what ever it may be - it's greedy and he's selfish and I do blame him and feel no sorrow when he ruined his chances for the $17 million that he held out for.

We're not talking the difference between affording to buy a new car vs. a used car or live in a house with four bedrooms instead of three or two bedrooms. We're talking about the difference between owning four luxury vehicles vs. three. We're talking about hiring additional maids and butlers and drivers and gardeners. We're talking about an issue of pride instead of earning the most money that he can for his family. It's a status thing instead of one of provision.

End of story. Have fun Cub fans - you just earned yourself another Selfish Sosa.
Puh-leeze. What's the difference between 15 and 17 million? More money than I'll ever see, that's for sure. 2 million is a lot of cash.

By the logic of some people here, about 90-95% of free agents are just "selfish."

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 04:06 PM
You know though, it would put some heavy pressure for Unkie Jerry to keep up with the Jones and perhaps he would sign Beltran if Mags went north...Deep pink just doesn't do that statement justice.

Palehose13
11-11-2004, 04:23 PM
The author of the article states:


When was this? Was this big news and I missed it? IIRC, he was a member of the Chicago White Sox last summer. I assume that I would have heard about him saying last summer that he wanted to play for teh mets or cubs...or maybe I missed it. Someone help me out here.
bump to page 2...

Did anyone hear this in the summer when he supposedly said it? Not that I am questioning the sources...

Justafan
11-11-2004, 04:26 PM
bump to page 2...

Did anyone hear this in the summer when he supposedly said it? Not that I am questioning the sources...
I never heard it myself.

Takatsufan
11-11-2004, 04:27 PM
:angry: :angry: Maggs was my favorite player. Was. How can anyone be so greedy as to put money over team loyalty. He wants Vlad Guerrero money! I agree he is good, but he's not that good. Unbelievably selfish!:angry: :angry:

Foulke29
11-11-2004, 04:43 PM
Oh, and the comment on movie stars and musicians is not a fair analogy.

Musicians don't always receive millions upfront to put on a show. Often, they negotiate a percentage of tickets sold - so it's totally on them to fill those seats.

As for movie stars, again it's the ability to put movie-goers in the seats. AND movie stars - more often than athletes - take significant pay cuts to do art films or work with friends.

When baseball players that demand the best contract dollars for the longest amount of time, they'd better be able to single-handedly carry that team - because often - when Tom Cruise is in a movie - he's the reason that movie makes $200 Million...

Regardless of what anyone argues, Magglio is not the guy that puts butts in the seats.

ChiSoxBobette
11-12-2004, 09:40 AM
I never knew this. Talk about a dagger.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-maggs11.html

You know what, Magglio Ordonez is turning out to be a real horses ass. It seems the White Sox organization and the White Sox fans have been nothing but good to this guy and look at him now, turns out he's a real JERK! Go AWAY!

JKryl
11-12-2004, 10:32 AM
You do realize that Boras the puppetmaster is the one provoking Magglio to say this - mainly because he has the Hendry bent over and --- is taking advantage of the Cubs. I mean, how else could Maddux have commanded those dollars this off season?
It doesn't matter who his agent is, if the Sox mean that little to him, where he won't even talk to them about a contract, then the hell with him. The greedy scum bag. And, I don't want to hear that, "it's only sports". I thnk he has an obligation (moral if nothing else) to the team that set him up for life. If it wasn't for baseball and the Sox, the little rodent would probably be sweeping floors for a living.

gosox41
11-12-2004, 10:35 AM
I'm not surprised about the Cubs thing at all. I said it before --- months ago. I could just see it coming. The Cubs and their fans capitalizing on the "Magglio chant." It will become a nationwide phenomena.

We'll see t-shirts all over the country with the chant on it. They'll come up with some new song that will have the chant in it. The whole new sensation will make Sox fan's stomachs turn, knowing that should be our guy and our capitalization. Oh well.:angry: :whiner: :(:
I also had a thread on this earlier htis summer. People said it wasn't going to happen. I hope we get RJ just so he can throw him a high hard one.


Bob

bc2k
11-12-2004, 11:27 AM
Sure Maddux was worth his $6 million last year, but I am from the school of Rob Neyer. I really don't believe the signing was a good one. Three years for $6, $9 and $9 - to me - is not a good deal for any team. The Cubs were over the nostalgia barrel. he may have won 16 games, but he lost 11 and those are his numbers at 38. Maddux will be 39 and 40 over the course of the next two $9 million dollar seasons. From Cubs.com: (http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/chc/news/chc_news.jsp?ymd=20040218&content_id=638617&vkey=spt2004news&fext=.jsp)
Maddux's contract will pay him $6 million [in 2004], $9 million in 2005 and $9million in 2006, although the third year is void if he does not total 400 innings in 2004-05. Maddux is slightly over half way there, having pitched 212 2/3 innings in 2004, so he'll need to pitch 187 1/3 innings in 2005 for his '06 year to be guaranteed.

TDog
11-12-2004, 11:30 AM
... but taking more money that someone is offering does not make you greedy. Not taking it makes you stupid.
The winter after Ted Williams didn't hit .300, he sent his contract back to the Red Sox and demanded he get a pay cut. Some people have standards that can't be measured in dollars and cents.

If I were an elite baseball player and the White Sox offered me $8 million and the Cubs offered me $12, I would take the offer from the White Sox because I grew up as a Sox fan. Magglio Ordonez has been with the Sox long enough that going to the Cubs for more money doesnt' make him not stupid. (I don't believe that Ordonez is choosing between the White Sox and Cubs, but that isn't my point.)

Even if the Cubs and White Sox weren't in the mix, I would turn down $15 million a year from the Yankees for $10 million a year to play with San Diego. Actually, to play with San Diego or Arizona, I would probably take less. The ballplayers call this "stupid money" because isn't a real difference between what $10, $15 or $20 million will do to your lifestyle. This is mostly an ego issue.

Flight #24
11-12-2004, 11:42 AM
The winter after Ted Williams didn't hit .300, he sent his contract back to the Red Sox and demanded he get a pay cut. Some people have standards that can't be measured in dollars and cents.

If I were an elite baseball player and the White Sox offered me $8 million and the Cubs offered me $12, I would take the offer from the White Sox because I grew up as a Sox fan. Magglio Ordonez has been with the Sox long enough that going to the Cubs for more money doesnt' make him not stupid. (I don't believe that Ordonez is choosing between the White Sox and Cubs, but that isn't my point.)

Even if the Cubs and White Sox weren't in the mix, I would turn down $15 million a year from the Yankees for $10 million a year to play with San Diego. Actually, to play with San Diego or Arizona, I would probably take less. The ballplayers call this "stupid money" because isn't a real difference between what $10, $15 or $20 million will do to your lifestyle. This is mostly an ego issue.
The MLBPA would put "stupid" pressure on you not to turn down the bigger deal. Trust that.

Ol' No. 2
11-12-2004, 12:16 PM
The winter after Ted Williams didn't hit .300, he sent his contract back to the Red Sox and demanded he get a pay cut. Some people have standards that can't be measured in dollars and cents.

If I were an elite baseball player and the White Sox offered me $8 million and the Cubs offered me $12, I would take the offer from the White Sox because I grew up as a Sox fan. Magglio Ordonez has been with the Sox long enough that going to the Cubs for more money doesnt' make him not stupid. (I don't believe that Ordonez is choosing between the White Sox and Cubs, but that isn't my point.)

Even if the Cubs and White Sox weren't in the mix, I would turn down $15 million a year from the Yankees for $10 million a year to play with San Diego. Actually, to play with San Diego or Arizona, I would probably take less. The ballplayers call this "stupid money" because isn't a real difference between what $10, $15 or $20 million will do to your lifestyle. This is mostly an ego issue.I don't think Ordonez grew up as a Sox fan, though. To him, why should it make any difference whether he gets his money from the Sox or Yankees of whoever? And please don't start with "The Sox gave him his start so he OWES them." They got their money's worth from him. It's a straight business transaction. He doesn't OWE them a thing. And BTW, I've never heard of the MLBPA getting involved in a contract negotiation except to enforce the CBA rules.

Like it or not, the fact is that players do not have the same attachment to a team and its fans that those fans have to the player. That's just a fact of life. A team may be a lifelong passion for you and me, but for them it's just another employer. Especially when they grew up on another continent.

And as a matter of fact, players do sometimes turn down more money. If you recall, Jose Valentin turned down more money in 2001 (?) to stay with the Sox. It's their choice, and they make it with their own priorities. Their priorities do not have to be the same as yours, and if they're different, that doesn't make them wrong.

Paulwny
11-12-2004, 01:41 PM
.

And as a matter of fact, players do sometimes turn down more money. If you recall, Jose Valentin turned down more money in 2001 (?) to stay with the Sox. It's their choice, and they make it with their own priorities. Their priorities do not have to be the same as yours, and if they're different, that doesn't make them wrong.
Agree, Tony Gwynn also turned down larger contracts to stay in San Diego. He felt that was the ideal area for his family.

Justafan
11-12-2004, 02:59 PM
Here is the link to a sun-times article back on 10/10/04. I am amazed he said that.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca101.htm

White Sox right fielder Magglio Ordonez has said he would love to stay in Chicago and play for the Cubs. He is coming off knee surgery and remains a big question. If it comes down to a one-year, incentive-heavy contract, he might be worth a gamble.

bobj4400
11-12-2004, 03:46 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed, but I dont care how hurt Maggs 'may' be, the Sox ABSOLUTELY MUST offer him arbitration. According to this article, KW is contemplating not offering arbitration b/c of the injury situation???? I will jump with both feet into the 'KW sucks' camp if this occurs. With BorASS as his agent, some poor team will overpay for Maggs and he will sign a huge contract. When this happens, we had better receive some compensation...

Lip Man 1
11-12-2004, 05:41 PM
No. 2:

Couldn't have said this better myself. This is a case of fans reacting with their heart instead of their brain. I certainly understand that feeling...I was young once myself but reality has a way of beating that out of you over time.

Again I wish Maggs the best. He played his ass off for the Sox and didn't embarass them in the years here in Chicago. What the hell more can you ask of a guy?

If the Sox had a major market payroll perhaps they could take the risk but with circumstances being what they are they have no choice.

Lip

fquaye149
11-12-2004, 07:08 PM
Agree, Tony Gwynn also turned down larger contracts to stay in San Diego. He felt that was the ideal area for his family.
if you ever have a chance like tony gwynn did to live in san diego where money is not an issue...and you turn it down...you may be crazy. what a beautiful place.

StockdaleForVeep
11-12-2004, 07:17 PM
Have there been any comments from oz or from other players aboot this?

Bisco Stu
11-12-2004, 11:27 PM
Hope the Mets get him & not the Flubs. That would also mean the Mets won't pursue Sham-me. Win win for me, can still root for Maggs & still hate on the Sham-meister.

TDog
11-13-2004, 12:36 AM
...
Like it or not, the fact is that players do not have the same attachment to a team and its fans that those fans have to the player. That's just a fact of life. A team may be a lifelong passion for you and me, but for them it's just another employer. Especially when they grew up on another continent. ...
It depends. Ordonez didn't grow up a White Sox fan, but he should have some sentimental attachment to the Sox, considering he came up with the team and the fans have treated him so well. You would hope that would count for something. Why should you care for ballplayers who don't care if you care?

This is a matter of character, not professionalism. There are a lot of people for whom it isn't all about the money. You have to wonder about the character of someone like, Pete Rose, for example, who went grew up a Reds fan, came up with his hometown team and left simply to play for more money.

Maybe if character were more evident, people would respect baseball players more.

jordan23ventura
11-13-2004, 03:41 AM
Here is the link to a sun-times article back on 10/10/04. I am amazed he said that.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca101.htm

White Sox right fielder Magglio Ordonez has said he would love to stay in Chicago and play for the Cubs. He is coming off knee surgery and remains a big question. If it comes down to a one-year, incentive-heavy contract, he might be worth a gamble.Future article from the Tribune:

May 17, 2005

New Cubs rightfielder Magglio Ordonez reinjured his problematic knee yesterday after a giant concrete block fell from the concourse. This is obviously a tremendous setback for everyone's favorite baseball team and may hamper their chances of winning the World Series in five months.

"I love the stadium," said Ordonez in an interview regarding the incident. "It's truly a beautiful place. The discarded empty beer cups that litter the field only accentuate the forest green of the ivy."

With that the star's cellphone rang and he had to go. Old Style, Old Style, Old Style, Bob Brenly rules, the end.

Nick@Nite
11-13-2004, 09:09 AM
It's time to move on and forget about MagglioWho's Magglio? :?:

(I feel better already :bandance: )

dickallen15
11-13-2004, 09:28 AM
Here is the link to a sun-times article back on 10/10/04. I am amazed he said that.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca101.htm

White Sox right fielder Magglio Ordonez has said he would love to stay in Chicago and play for the Cubs. He is coming off knee surgery and remains a big question. If it comes down to a one-year, incentive-heavy contract, he might be worth a gamble.
He didn't say it, and hasn't said it. Notice how there are no quotes around it.

TornLabrum
11-13-2004, 10:15 AM
It depends. Ordonez didn't grow up a White Sox fan, but he should have some sentimental attachment to the Sox, considering he came up with the team and the fans have treated him so well. You would hope that would count for something. Why should you care for ballplayers who don't care if you care?

This is a matter of character, not professionalism. There are a lot of people for whom it isn't all about the money. You have to wonder about the character of someone like, Pete Rose, for example, who went grew up a Reds fan, came up with his hometown team and left simply to play for more money.

Maybe if character were more evident, people would respect baseball players more.
I've never read such a load of crap in my life.

This is professional baseball. The players and the owners are both out to make the best financial deal for themselves based on whatever their priorities may be.

Do you wonder about the character and sentimentality of the Sox owners who traded away Billy Pierce, Nellie Fox, and Luis Aparicio in the early '60s? How about the character and sentimentality of the Yankees owners who traded away Babe Freakin' Ruth to the Boston Braves. There has rarely been sentimentality by either ownership or players in baseball.

Do you know why? It's because everyone in baseball is out to make the best deal for himself based on whatever priorities he might have.

Some players move to places where they can be close to their families. Others want to make sure they have enough money to set up themselves and their families for generations to come. Others want to go someplace where they have a chance of picking up a ring.

Most owners have one of two priorities. One is to make the playoffs and World Series as often as possible. The other is to make a tidy little profit. From reading these boards you should have a pretty good idea of what a lot of us suspect our owners' priorities are. Maybe Magglio's are the same. That doesn't make him wrong. It makes him a human who has his own set of priorities.

ChiSoxBobette
11-13-2004, 10:54 AM
I never knew this. Talk about a dagger.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-maggs11.html

I look forward to booing the greedy prick when/if he comes to US Cell. with the rest of the midwest yankees.

Lip Man 1
11-13-2004, 11:51 AM
Hal:

Perfectly spot-on. I swear some fans live in la-la land.

Lip

TDog
11-13-2004, 12:24 PM
...
Most owners have one of two priorities. One is to make the playoffs and World Series as often as possible. The other is to make a tidy little profit. From reading these boards you should have a pretty good idea of what a lot of us suspect our owners' priorities are. Maybe Magglio's are the same. That doesn't make him wrong. It makes him a human who has his own set of priorities.
Free agency is freedom to choose. I wouldn't even need to hire an agent. Some people around here think it's stupid to go somewhere for for $14 million a year when you can make $18 million some place else. As if another $4 million next year (before taxes) will mean the difference in financial security. One of the most frequent complaints about baseball is that the players are only in it for the money. In the case of Pete Rose, when the stakes were lower, he uprooted his family (his wife at the time asked, "is there a Kmart in Philadelphia?") and moved from a place that by all accounts he loved and loved him back, solely for the money. He was already playing for a contender, and he already had World Series rings.

Free agency is the freedom to have priorities. Some people's priorities are more admirable than others.

Many people here seem to think owners of a professional baseball team owe it to their cities to do whatever they can, spend whatever they can to win, as if owning a sports franchise is a public trust -- while at the same time they say it's purely a business for players.

How can you expect ownership not to treat it like a business if that is precisely what you expect players?

Frankfan4life
11-13-2004, 12:58 PM
At this point, I don't even care what his reasons are. He doesn't want to play for the White Sox. That seems pretty obvious. Bye, bye, Maggs. Its been fun.That's the bottom line. For whatever reason, Maggs wants out. It might have something to do with Ozzie. Maybe they had a falling-out. It's hard to believe that Ozzie wasn't able to influence a fellow Venezuelan to play for him.

I hope the Mets offers Maggs the moon!!!

TornLabrum
11-13-2004, 01:06 PM
Free agency is freedom to choose. I wouldn't even need to hire an agent. Some people around here think it's stupid to go somewhere for for $14 million a year when you can make $18 million some place else. As if another $4 million next year (before taxes) will mean the difference in financial security. One of the most frequent complaints about baseball is that the players are only in it for the money. In the case of Pete Rose, when the stakes were lower, he uprooted his family (his wife at the time asked, "is there a Kmart in Philadelphia?") and moved from a place that by all accounts he loved and loved him back, solely for the money. He was already playing for a contender, and he already had World Series rings.

Free agency is the freedom to have priorities. Some people's priorities are more admirable than others.

Many people here seem to think owners of a professional baseball team owe it to their cities to do whatever they can, spend whatever they can to win, as if owning a sports franchise is a public trust -- while at the same time they say it's purely a business for players.

How can you expect ownership not to treat it like a business if that is precisely what you expect players?
I don't expect any more or less form the owners than I do from the players. Baseball lost its idealism sometime in the mid-to-late 1860s when the first "amateur" players were paid under the table by towns to play for them. Back in the days of the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players, the players had the right to move wherever they wanted. Most of the best players moved to Boston to play for the Red Stockings, possibly the first city to buy its way to a professional championship.

When William Hulbert and Al Spalding decided to found the National League, one of the main purposes was to put more money into the hands of the financial backers. There was a key change in the naming of the organization. It became the National League of Professional Baseball Clubs. The players became subordinate to the financial backers for the first time. Within a decade, the owners, in order to "protect their investment" instituted the reserve clause, which gave them the right to hold players under contract forever. They gave themselves an out if players were hurt, problems, etc. by also instituting in each contract the "10-day clause" which gave them the right to dismiss any player on ten days notice.

Baseball continued to operate this way until the Messersmith decision by an arbitrator in the '70s. Basically the only recourse the players had for about a century was to hold out during spring training and hope the owners would give in and let them have a few extra bucks because their services were so valuable. The most famous hold-out in my lifetime was when Koufax and Drysdale held out for a hundred grand each in the early '60s.

Certain owners were known for their stinginess. The Yankees in the '50s were a notable example. They held the line on salaries while producing championships because the players had no recourse. Where would they go? In the late '40s many players tried to go to the Mexican League where big salaries were being offered. But that collapsed, and some of the players found themselves suspended by MLB for their trouble.

Remember that next time you hear somebody talking about how loyal the players were to their clubs in the "good old days." They had to be loyal.

Paulwny
11-13-2004, 01:16 PM
Its really funny. Carlton Fisk was born and bred a Red Sox fan yet, he came to the white sox for more $$$ because the red sox failed to postmark his new contract which allowed him to become a fa. I'll bet very few if any on this board would consider Fisk to be greedy. He used a postmark loop hole to leave his beloved red sox.

Frankfan4life
11-13-2004, 01:24 PM
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! the amount of "bad" press the SOX get, and "GOOD" press the other team gets will COST the sox (hear that jerry) more than money can measure ..... This will be just another in a long line of PR DISASTERS suffered by this team .......... under the skillful leadership of a certain JERRY REIN$DORF. The amount of $$$$$ he "Saves" not signing Maggs and letting him fall to the cubs, will take 10 X that amount in PR costs just to offset this blunder. The SOX should just offer him arbitration. Theyd stand to WIN seeing as how he was hurt all year.How true. I'm already getting a funny feeling thinking about Maggs on the cubs. It would make the Nomar signing pale in comparison and that was a complete circus! If the cubs get Maggs I won't be able to watch TV or read the paper for weeks. Sox fans' morale will take a nose dive.

Paulwny
11-13-2004, 01:42 PM
Certain owners were known for their stinginess. The Yankees in the '50s were a notable example. They held the line on salaries while producing championships because the players had no recourse. Where would they go? In the late '40s many players tried to go to the Mexican League where big salaries were being offered. But that collapsed, and some of the players found themselves suspended by MLB for their trouble.

Remember that next time you hear somebody talking about how loyal the players were to their clubs in the "good old days." They had to be loyal.
Yep, I heard this and also read this a long time ago.
One year Mantle found out he was earning less then Yogi Berra even though Mantle's stats were far superior to Berra's. When Mantle questioned this he was told, ~ " Berra has more seniority and is a fan favorite ", Mantle accepted the explanation.
Situations such as this are the reason agents came onto the scene when fa was adopted. Pro players aren't necessarily the smartest negotiators so they sign with agents. Frank signed a "diminished skills clause", bad thinking on his part.

duke of dorwood
11-13-2004, 05:53 PM
Magglio is scum-

Hires the one agent we dont deal with, all the other secret stuff-good riddance

Used us, and I say %#$*& you Scragglio

TornLabrum
11-14-2004, 08:46 AM
Magglio is scum-

Hires the one agent we dont deal with, all the other secret stuff-good riddance

Used us, and I say %#$*& you Scragglio
He used US? By "us" who do you mean? The fans? He played 7+ years for the White Sox, never complained, played hard every game.

The owners? He played 7+ years for them, made TV commercials for them, made personal appearances for them, let them use the O-E-O chant. He fullfilled his contractual obligations without complaint as far as we know.

So exactly who did he use? Does doing your job and then looking for a better deal constitute being scum? If so, then let's condemn most of the people who work for any kind of pay, because most of them would jump at the chance to make more money. And perhaps he figured, based on past performance, that Boras will make the best deal on his behalf.

Here's the deal, folks. Most players who establish themselves in the major leagues are through before their fortieth birthday. Most have devoted their time, when others are developing skills that are useful in the workplace, to developing one talent that is not marketable past the age of 40. Most of them played for peanuts in the minor leagues (is that greed on the part of the owners?) and finally reach their prime salary-earning years in their late 20s or early 30s. This gives them less than a decade to set themselves up for life.

So, yeah, they want to make as much money as they can. That doesn't make them scum. On the other hand, what does passing such a judgment about someone you've never gotten to know say about the person making such a statement?

ondafarm
11-14-2004, 10:05 AM
Here's the deal, folks. Most players who establish themselves in the major leagues are through before their fortieth birthday. Most have devoted their time, when others are developing skills that are useful in the workplace, to developing one talent that is not marketable past the age of 40. Most of them played for peanuts in the minor leagues (is that greed on the part of the owners?) and finally reach their prime salary-earning years in their late 20s or early 30s. This gives them less than a decade to set themselves up for life.

So, yeah, they want to make as much money as they can. That doesn't make them scum. On the other hand, what does passing such a judgment about someone you've never gotten to know say about the person making such a statement?
Have to agree with TL here. Consider that fewer than one out of ten guys in the minors gets to sit on the bench in the majors and all of those guys are playing for peanuts (Dodgers paid $757 / month in 1985) I can't blame any major league player for wanting to set himself up for life in the few years he'll be in the bigs. Having said that, I think some players don't consider loyalty to a team (not an organization, a team) as much as they should. Most retired ballplayers recall their teammates better than the money they made. A good living with a great bunch of guys is more to be sought after than a great living with a bunch of greedy bums. IMHO.

Mickster
11-14-2004, 11:57 AM
The owners? He played 7+ years for them, made TV commercials for them, made personal appearances for them, let them use the O-E-O chant.
How nice of Maggs. He let the owners use the O-E-O chant. :?:

Paulwny
11-14-2004, 03:03 PM
Maybe its not only about the money. Maggs may want to play for an owner who wants to contend for a ws title not an owner who is happy contending for the central div.

Justafan
11-15-2004, 09:46 AM
All of the Ordonez bashers will long for him when he is gone, ESPECIALLY if he is playing on the north side. Mark my words.

Justafan
11-15-2004, 09:57 AM
But hey, Borchard is certainly ready.

Lip Man 1
11-15-2004, 12:54 PM
TDog says: "Many people here seem to think owners of a professional baseball team owe it to their cities to do whatever they can, spend whatever they can to win, as if owning a sports franchise is a public trust -- while at the same time they say it's purely a business for players. How can you expect ownership not to treat it like a business if that is precisely what you expect players?"

Because owners get tax payer / community money to build them very, very expensive new stadiums and then get sweatheart lease agreements on top of that.

Last I looked A-Rod, Roger Clemens etc weren't getting the state to pay for their salaries.

Lip

Flight #24
11-15-2004, 01:07 PM
TDog says: "Many people here seem to think owners of a professional baseball team owe it to their cities to do whatever they can, spend whatever they can to win, as if owning a sports franchise is a public trust -- while at the same time they say it's purely a business for players. How can you expect ownership not to treat it like a business if that is precisely what you expect players?"

Because owners get tax payer / community money to build them very, very expensive new stadiums and then get sweatheart lease agreements on top of that.

Last I looked A-Rod, Roger Clemens etc weren't getting the state to pay for their salaries.

Lip
If owners were paying for stadiums, that would reduce the resources available to pay players. Increasing the expense base in one area requires a reduction in another unless you either increase revenues or decrease profit margins. Unless you think owners would reduce their profit margin (whether you think they're at break even and would thus go negative or whether you think they're making a ton and would make less), it would drag salaries. Therefore subsidized stadiums frees up player salary $$$.

And baseball is just one of a number of industries that get government dollars via tax breaks, etc. But no one's out complaining when Boeing acts like a business in decisionmaking........

Justafan
11-15-2004, 03:01 PM
What will some of you do with your Ordonez jerseys?

eshunn2001
11-15-2004, 03:15 PM
What will some of you do with your Ordonez jerseys?
I am burning the Lettering and number 30 opening day

Lip Man 1
11-15-2004, 05:51 PM
Flight:

Because the average person has little or no passion for Boeing. The only person who gives a flying screw about Boeing is the person who has Boeing stock. That's why sports are considered entertainment. Sports invokes passions and opinions...business is just that... business, which evokes nothing but yawns.

Tell you what here's an idea...the next time an owner wants to extort money from a city and or state for a stadium by threatening to move, the city and or state should say they'll be happy to pay him the money but defer it for twenty years or so!!! (I mean you are a big advocate of players being forced to take deferred money...why not owners? Fair is fair right?)

Here's another strange idea....maybe owners and the corporations who own teams should pay for their own stadiums. The Robbie family did it, the Giants did it. Or don't you think Carl Pohland or David Glass two of the richest men in the world according to Forbes, could afford to build their own stadiums AND have pa...lenty of money left over to buy as many good players as they wish?

Lip

TornLabrum
11-16-2004, 09:09 AM
Here's another strange idea....maybe owners and the corporations who own teams should pay for their own stadiums. The Robbie family did it, the Giants did it. Or don't you think Carl Pohland or David Glass two of the richest men in the world according to Forbes, could afford to build their own stadiums AND have pa...lenty of money left over to buy as many good players as they wish?

Lip
I'm now waiting for the argument that the cost of a new stadium would be something like 25% of these guys' net worth. Of course this neglects the fact that no one pays cash on the barrelhead to own a stadium. Think these guys would have any trouble getting a loan?

Flight #24
11-16-2004, 09:27 AM
Flight:

Because the average person has little or no passion for Boeing. The only person who gives a flying screw about Boeing is the person who has Boeing stock. That's why sports are considered entertainment. Sports invokes passions and opinions...business is just that... business, which evokes nothing but yawns.

Tell you what here's an idea...the next time an owner wants to extort money from a city and or state for a stadium by threatening to move, the city and or state should say they'll be happy to pay him the money but defer it for twenty years or so!!! (I mean you are a big advocate of players being forced to take deferred money...why not owners? Fair is fair right?)

Here's another strange idea....maybe owners and the corporations who own teams should pay for their own stadiums. The Robbie family did it, the Giants did it. Or don't you think Carl Pohland or David Glass two of the richest men in the world according to Forbes, could afford to build their own stadiums AND have pa...lenty of money left over to buy as many good players as they wish?

Lip
Fine. Take movies and the same arugment holds. You think anyone's getting discounted tickets or higher quality "entertainment" when Chicago gives tons of tax breaks & free/cheap public services to movie producers? Nope.

As for the stadium, it's quite simple. Governments can (and have) said "no", or worked out terms that they were amenable to (including things like the Angels being required to be called Anaheim Angels as part of the lease agreement per a report I read). You don't like it, take it up with your representative. JR DID build a stadium with private funding - the UC. And guess what - when the circus comes through town, he gets the $$$ whereas when the Rolling Stones play USCF it goes to the ISFA.

Gotta love the double standard. Multi-millionaires should be free and able to get the best deal/highest $$$ they can, but multi-billionaires should not.

jabrch
11-16-2004, 09:52 AM
Why pay to build a stadium when you can get a municipality to do it for you? If it wasn't a good proposition for the ISFA, the state and the city, they wouldn't have done it. Nobody has ever succssfully explained to me why an owner of a sports team should be expected to pull 500mm out of his own pocket, regardless of how much money he has, to pay for a stadium. Its a business decision all around. If he doesn't want to do it - that's his choice. if the city/state don't want to do it - that's their call. I don't get the arguement here that rich people are obligated to lose money or to allocate their own personal resources in a manner that is not productive, just cuz they own a team.

I think I know the answer I will get (they carry responsibility for a public interest) but I don't think that answer justifies the arguement that 500mm in public works projects should ALWAYS be privately funded. Some are - and that's great. Some aren't - cuz it is a business decision.

SluggersAway
11-16-2004, 11:54 PM
The reason an owner should have to shell out the cash to build a stadium is the exact same reason why one should not expect taxpayers to subsidize any other corporate endeavour. The better question is why should any taxpayer who does not like baseball and will never benefit from the construction of the team have to pay for the construction of the ballpark?

If I have a class I want to teach should I just demand that the state build a school for me? If I have a movie I want to produce should I expect the state to build a studio? If I have a formula for a softdrink should I expect the state to build my factory?

Professional sports is a business.

Of course, the only reason the state does pitch in to build a stadium is that they expect some benefit from such collusion and the fans are a big enough special interest that they will drowned out the folks who oppose such a deal.

Hmmm, sounds like fascism; well it is.

Economic studies have suggested that teams that do build there own stadiums are much better off. And, the same goes for the cities that host them. There is nothing like the free market.

Foulke29
11-17-2004, 12:10 AM
The better question is why should any taxpayer who does not like baseball and will never benefit from the construction of the team have to pay for the construction of the ballpark?

Not that I'm an advocate of tax dollars going to pay for stadiums or ballparks, but those 'attractions' bring in people willing to spend their money in the city where those tax payers live. Other businesses benefit from such attractions. In addition it attracts new businesses and other developments to be made in the area. This raises property value for residents and allows for those residents to have more institutions to entertain them - be it a zoo or museum or a pizza joint. This causes rent and property value to increase. People that move into the area recognize this and demand higher pay to cover the cost of living.

I consider it just part of living in the city. I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it happens.

SouthSide_HitMen
11-17-2004, 12:39 AM
Economic studies have suggested that teams that do build there own stadiums are much better off. And, the same goes for the cities that host them. There is nothing like the free market.
You do realize that you live (or at least I live) in the Peoples Republic of Chicago, run at the whim of Da Mayor who spends other peoples money (OPM) to enrich his friends and relatives on "B"illenium Park, Soldier Field II, OHare expansion (will United / American even be in business by the project's completion) and the tearing down of Meigs Field (to be called Maggie Field Park).

Free Market? A CPS teacher would be fired and probably sued for teaching concepts such as the free market.

SouthSide Hitmen - Who thinks government spends OPM at a rate that will soon bankrupt America.