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View Full Version : Encouraging Whitesox.com article ($75,000,000 payroll, RJ, Lieber, others)


Foulke You
11-11-2004, 12:28 AM
Maybe things could get interesting this offseason after all. Whitesox.com says team close to signing Vizquel, could be after RJ, Jon Lieber, or Jason Kendall. After the organizational meetings the payroll COULD be kicked as high as $75,000,000. (WOO HOO, MEDIAN PAYROLL IN MLB!) I know, I know, I'll believe it when it happens but it is certainly more encouraging than last year's offseason.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041110&content_id=912542&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

rwcescato
11-11-2004, 07:40 AM
Maybe things could get interesting this offseason after all. Whitesox.com says team close to signing Vizquel, could be after RJ, Jon Lieber, or Jason Kendall. After the organizational meetings the payroll COULD be kicked as high as $75,000,000. (WOO HOO, MEDIAN PAYROLL IN MLB!) I know, I know, I'll believe it when it happens but it is certainly more encouraging than last year's offseason.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041110&content_id=912542&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
The fact that they raised sesaon ticket prices by $3 or more. They are adding
$250 seats behind homeplate. They are also raising tier pricing including
Cubs tickets by $10 per seat they had better raise payroll. I would think that 85-90 million budget would be more in line.
Rich

Dibbs
11-11-2004, 08:03 AM
I would be happy with the $75m payroll. Some people will want it higher regardless of of where it is set. Many Sox fans just like to complain.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 09:09 AM
The fact that they raised sesaon ticket prices by $3 or more. They are adding
$250 seats behind homeplate. They are also raising tier pricing including
Cubs tickets by $10 per seat they had better raise payroll. I would think that 85-90 million budget would be more in line.
RichYour math is a little fuzzy, here. The average ticket price increase was a bit less than $2, even accounting for the four-tier pricing (mine went up $150/seat for the season). $2 x 2M attendance = $4M in net increased revenue. The scout seating section, while pricey, doesn't have that many seats, and the net revenue isn't as much you might think. Assume 100 seats x 81 games x $170 (the $250 is only for the first row) = $1.4M, and that's for the best case assuming they sell them all out for every game, and neglecting the extra cost for the additional amenities. Total increased revenue: $5.4M. That doesn't get you anywhere close to $85M.

ewokpelts
11-11-2004, 09:26 AM
The fact that they raised sesaon ticket prices by $3 or more. They are adding
$250 seats behind homeplate. They are also raising tier pricing including
Cubs tickets by $10 per seat they had better raise payroll. I would think that 85-90 million budget would be more in line.
Rich:reinsy

um.....yeah...i'm raising payroll cuz i raised ticket prices...when's the last time both those things went up? 1980? we're a first class organIzation here....
Gene

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 09:38 AM
:reinsy

um.....yeah...i'm raising payroll cuz i raised ticket prices...when's the last time both those things went up? 1980? we're a first class organIzation here....
GeneUmmm....no. Try 2004. But let's not let mere facts get in the way.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2004, 10:13 AM
Scott Merkin is the same reporter, who on the same web site two weeks ago, quoted Williams on the off season and speculated the payroll would remain roughly where it is today 65 million.

Some posters said Merkin didn't know anything definitively therefore it was useless to infer anything from his comments.

I suggest that the same logic apply to this case.

Chris DeLuca in a column today in the Tribune on the Chicago teams off season says the possibility of the Cubs getting Beltran and the Sox Johnson are 'remote.'

My point...rumors and opinions are rampent right now. Let's wait and see. But if I had to bet I'd say the Sox payroll will be closer to 65 million then to 75 million.

Lip

Mickster
11-11-2004, 10:45 AM
Scott Merkin is the same reporter, who on the same web site two weeks ago, quoted Williams on the off season and speculated the payroll would remain roughly where it is today 65 million.
Lip: Here is a quote taken from the article:

White Sox general manager Ken Williams told me last week that the payroll for 2005 figures to check in around the same point it was when 2004 concluded. That total should be somewhere between $63 million and $65 million. Here is the link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041030&content_id=908442&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp).

Notice what KW told Merkin: Payroll would be around conclusion of 2004 payroll.

Merkin's next line is absolutely incorrect, as payroll for 2004 did not conclude at $63 to $65 Million.

This is juat an example where Merkin took information provided to him by KW and added a piece of information that was incorrect, thereby changing the entire quote.

SEALgep
11-11-2004, 10:54 AM
Scott Merkin is the same reporter, who on the same web site two weeks ago, quoted Williams on the off season and speculated the payroll would remain roughly where it is today 65 million.

Some posters said Merkin didn't know anything definitively therefore it was useless to infer anything from his comments.

I suggest that the same logic apply to this case.

Chris DeLuca in a column today in the Tribune on the Chicago teams off season says the possibility of the Cubs getting Beltran and the Sox Johnson are 'remote.'

My point...rumors and opinions are rampent right now. Let's wait and see. But if I had to bet I'd say the Sox payroll will be closer to 65 million then to 75 million.

LipNow he doesn't know what he's talking about? You defended him to the bitter end, saying he knows more than us mere fans. Now he goes the other way, and since it doesn't support your pessimism, he's wrong now?

eshunn2001
11-11-2004, 11:59 AM
Lip: Here is a quote taken from the article:

Here is the link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041030&content_id=908442&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp).

Notice what KW told Merkin: Payroll would be around conclusion of 2004 payroll.

Merkin's next line is absolutely incorrect, as payroll for 2004 did not conclude at $63 to $65 Million.

This is juat an example where Merkin took information provided to him by KW and added a piece of information that was incorrect, thereby changing the entire quote.
When the season concluded our payroll was at about 73 million.. Was it not?

Mickster
11-11-2004, 12:04 PM
When the season concluded our payroll was at about 73 million.. Was it not?
Exactly.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2004, 12:13 PM
Seal:

Not at all...I'm pointing out the 'flaw' that some of the optimists immediately shot out as fast as their stubby fingers could type.

It didn't agree with what THEY thought, so Merkin was just a lazy, good for nothing, reporter trying to stir up ****. Now Merkin says the payroll will be 75 million so suddenly he's O.K. and what he says is accurate. LOL

It was my fault for not putting in teal some of my comments.

But I still feel the payroll will be closer to 65 million then 75 million. That's where the complexities of payroll numbers comes in, no one really knows 'the truth.' Do you count at the start of the year?, the end of the year?, do the Sox count for example Contraras entire salary even that portion payed by the Yankees as part of their payroll? Who knows for sure.

Lip

MisterB
11-11-2004, 12:25 PM
When the season concluded our payroll was at about 73 million.. Was it not?Not quite. With cash considerations and pro-rating of contracts, I believe the Sox actually ended up at about $67M. There's no way it hit $70M or more.

Mickster
11-11-2004, 12:31 PM
Not quite. With cash considerations and pro-rating of contracts, I believe the Sox actually ended up at about $67M. There's no way it hit $70M or more.How so? We got rid of Koch and only had $500K of relief. We added Garcia and 1/2 of the $4M salary, added Contreras and $3M (1/2 of the $8M plus $2M Cash), added Everett and $1.5M (1/2 of $3M)....

We were easily over $70M.

WhiteSoxFan84
11-11-2004, 02:07 PM
Yeh, so, any of you heard that Yahoo radio commericial with Shingo Takastu? Man, Shingo is a marketing monster!!

wdelaney72
11-11-2004, 02:15 PM
Take it for what it is, but, George Oftman on the Score has been consistently putting the Sox at payroll of 63.5 million. This includes removing Maggs, Jose, Koch, and adding in estimated arbitration numbers for Garland, Rowand, etc...

It looks like signing Vizquel is a almost a done deal. I'm curious how much that is going to cost. Let's say Vizquel gets $4 million next year, that puts the Sox at 67.5 million for a team that on paper isn't even good enough to make the playoffs. That's sad and scary.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 02:28 PM
Take it for what it is, but, George Oftman on the Score has been consistently putting the Sox at payroll of 63.5 million. This includes removing Maggs, Jose, Koch, and adding in estimated arbitration numbers for Garland, Rowand, etc...

It looks like signing Vizquel is a almost a done deal. I'm curious how much that is going to cost. Let's say Vizquel gets $4 million next year, that puts the Sox at 67.5 million for a team that on paper isn't even good enough to make the playoffs. That's sad and scary.That $63.5 is exactly what ma-gaga posted yesterday in another thread, and it jibes with my own estimate. If they pull off the PK+JG for RJ deal, that actually cuts the number to $62M. Skip Vizquel. Sign Jon Lieber ($5M?) and a solid reliever like Steve Kline ($4M?) and they're up to $71M. If they're really willing to go to $75M, they've got $4M left for other tinkering. THAT team will make the playoffs and perhaps do some damage.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 02:38 PM
Seal:

Not at all...I'm pointing out the 'flaw' that some of the optimists immediately shot out as fast as their stubby fingers could type.

It didn't agree with what THEY thought, so Merkin was just a lazy, good for nothing, reporter trying to stir up ****. Now Merkin says the payroll will be 75 million so suddenly he's O.K. and what he says is accurate. LOL

It was my fault for not putting in teal some of my comments.

But I still feel the payroll will be closer to 65 million then 75 million. That's where the complexities of payroll numbers comes in, no one really knows 'the truth.' Do you count at the start of the year?, the end of the year?, do the Sox count for example Contraras entire salary even that portion payed by the Yankees as part of their payroll? Who knows for sure.

Lip
Actually, what Merkin QUOTED in his first article and what he says now are 100% in line, it's just his incorrect inferral from the first article that people took issue with since it directly contradicted the quote that he had. That's a very different thing from say knocking reports that RJ doesn't want to come here and talking up reports that RJ has us on his list of destinations.

There is no way, shape, or form in which season concluding payroll was 63-65mil, even when you factor in cash received for Contreras & Ben Davis.

In any case, we now have some consensus in terms of media reports that payroll will be in the 70-75mil range. That would represent roughly a 10-20% payroll increase over 2004 opening day. Coupled with a potential trade of a high salary, there's reason to believe that the Sox will have the ability to be players in the market and either add a significant talent, or at least fill holes with solid players.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 02:40 PM
That $63.5 is exactly what ma-gaga posted yesterday in another thread, and it jibes with my own estimate. If they pull off the PK+JG for RJ deal, that actually cuts the number to $62M. Skip Vizquel. Sign Jon Lieber ($5M?) and a solid reliever like Steve Kline ($4M?) and they're up to $71M. If they're really willing to go to $75M, they've got $4M left for other tinkering. THAT team will make the playoffs and perhaps do some damage.
Which is maybe why they're going after Vizquel - they have a budget expected to be near 75mil.

MisterB
11-11-2004, 03:01 PM
How so? We got rid of Koch and only had $500K of relief. We added Garcia and 1/2 of the $4M salary, added Contreras and $3M (1/2 of the $8M plus $2M Cash), added Everett and $1.5M (1/2 of $3M)....

We were easily over $70M.
Before all the trades went down, the Sox payroll projected to about $62M. The remainder of Garcia's contract was about a million more than we saved on Loaiza. Davis cost nothing due to the cash sent by Seattle. Contreras was only here for a little more than 1/3 of the season so that's about $3M. Montreal sent cash in the Everett deal, which left about 650k for the Sox to pick up. Robbie Alomar was making less than $1M, and the Sox paid a fraction of that. Minus what little savings there was from the Koch deal, all the moves upped payroll by about $5M or to about $67M.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 03:05 PM
Which is maybe why they're going after Vizquel - they have a budget expected to be near 75mil.I still wouldn't spend it on Vizquel. They still need another outfielder, or we're going to have Crazy Carl running around out in RF doing his pterodactyl imitation. And I'd look to get Damian Miller to replace Davis before I'd start working on the infield.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2004, 05:04 PM
The discussions over the 'facts' posted by No. 2, Ma-gaga and Flight prove my point. NOBODY knows for sure what the payroll is and much like owners who manipulate figures over income, it appears that team payrolls depend on the eyes of the beholder and how certain 'facts' are counted.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 05:14 PM
The discussions over the 'facts' posted by No. 2, Ma-gaga and Flight prove my point. NOBODY knows for sure what the payroll is and much like owners who manipulate figures over income, it appears that team payrolls depend on the eyes of the beholder and how certain 'facts' are counted.

LipIn principle, I agree, but as long as you compare on the same basis, then on a comparative basis you can tell whether it's going up or down or staying the same. Compared on the same basis, I figure their payroll right now is somewhere around $3M lower than last year's opening day payroll, but of course, since some salaries are yet to be determined, that could turn out to off by a couple million.

But in the context of the discussion, let's be realistic. Kenny is NOT going to announce to the baseball world what his budget is any more than you would go into a car dealer and announce how much you planned to spend. And, in fact, I don't think it's a firm number anyway. They probably have a target figure, but they could go up from that for the right deal or down if they can't get the players they want. So all the arguing about whether it's going to be $65M or $68M or $75M is really pretty pointless.

Flight #24
11-11-2004, 05:16 PM
The discussions over the 'facts' posted by No. 2, Ma-gaga and Flight prove my point. NOBODY knows for sure what the payroll is and much like owners who manipulate figures over income, it appears that team payrolls depend on the eyes of the beholder and how certain 'facts' are counted.

Lip
Yup, a quote from KW is a "fact" subject to interpretation, whereas an inferral that contradictsquote in the same article, and is soon after replaced by one that goes along with the quote is one that's not.

mweflen
11-11-2004, 05:21 PM
Just Lieber and Kendall will do nicely. Randy Johnson is just too old and expensive to sacrifice young talent for.

I think a rotation of:

Garcia/Buehrle/Lieber/Contreras/Garland

And a lineup of:

CF Rowand
SS Vizquel
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Thomas
RF Everett
2B Uribe
3B Crede
C Kendall

... is enough to make the playoffs, and would be right around the $75mm level.

Jjav829
11-11-2004, 05:27 PM
Just Lieber and Kendall will do nicely. Randy Johnson is just too old and expensive to sacrifice young talent for.

I think a rotation of:

Garcia/Buehrle/Lieber/Contreras/Garland

And a lineup of:

CF Rowand
SS Vizquel
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Thomas
RF Everett
2B Uribe
3B Crede
C Kendall

... is enough to make the playoffs, and would be right around the $75mm level.
Kendall is a leadoff hitter, and a better leadoff hitter than Rowand, not a #9 hitter. Getting Kendall and batting him 9th would be pointless. Furthermore, Frank should be batting #3, not #5.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 05:38 PM
Yup, a quote from KW is a "fact" subject to interpretation, whereas an inferral that contradictsquote in the same article, and is soon after replaced by one that goes along with the quote is one that's not.You can say that again.:?:

eshunn2001
11-11-2004, 06:27 PM
Before all the trades went down, the Sox payroll projected to about $62M. The remainder of Garcia's contract was about a million more than we saved on Loaiza. Davis cost nothing due to the cash sent by Seattle. Contreras was only here for a little more than 1/3 of the season so that's about $3M. Montreal sent cash in the Everett deal, which left about 650k for the Sox to pick up. Robbie Alomar was making less than $1M, and the Sox paid a fraction of that. Minus what little savings there was from the Koch deal, all the moves upped payroll by about $5M or to about $67M.
Even if the teams gave us the money it was still part of our payroll. They gave us the cash we gave it to the players so technically we still payed it. I guess it just matters how Reinsdorf & Co. looks at it.

MisterB
11-11-2004, 06:41 PM
Even if the teams gave us the money it was still part of our payroll. They gave us the cash we gave it to the players so technically we still payed it. I guess it just matters how Reinsdorf & Co. looks at it.
Yeah, but the point was figuring out how much salary the Sox spent out of their own pocket in order to speculate on how much they might (or might not) spend in 2005. The Sox can't plan their budget around how much cash they may possibly recieve from other teams in mid-season deals.

mweflen
11-12-2004, 09:43 AM
Kendall is a leadoff hitter, and a better leadoff hitter than Rowand, not a #9 hitter. Getting Kendall and batting him 9th would be pointless. Furthermore, Frank should be batting #3, not #5.Hey, whatever. I'm not Kendall's personal biographer. Bat him first, fine. I was just throwing names up there.

I just know that a catcher with a career .306 average and .387 OBP would be possibly the most phenomenal upgrade we could ask for at a position which has not had an established performer in it since Fisk.

So here:
C Kendall
CF Rowand
LF Lee
1B Konerko
DH Thomas
RF Everett
2B Uribe
3B Crede
SS Vizquel

I stand by batting Frank 5th. No way you're going to budge me from that until he comes back healthy and earns the 3 or 4 hole.

Randar68
11-12-2004, 12:36 PM
I stand by batting Frank 5th. No way you're going to budge me from that until he comes back healthy and earns the 3 or 4 hole.:whatever: