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PavanoBeltran'05
11-10-2004, 08:26 AM
Link:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-041109rogers,1,1482279.column?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Whatcha think?

lowesox
11-10-2004, 08:41 AM
This isn't neccesarily good news. Note that Cleveland wasn't willing to give Vizquel more than a 1-year contract - do they know something we don't know? This is not a young guy anymore.

ALso, Kenny often makes the WhiteSox frontrunners by giving up more than he should.

JRIG
11-10-2004, 08:44 AM
My comment is that I'm amazed a "National" baseball writer can actually print a line like this:


By not re-signing Ordonez and Valentin, the White Sox have $19 million to add pitching and fill holes in the lineup.

without doing any sort of fact-checking. Literally dozens of people on this board have pointed out a) much of that money went to Garcia's extension and Contreras' salary and b) the rest will be eaten by raises to players currently under contract.

gosox41
11-10-2004, 08:45 AM
This isn't neccesarily good news. Note that Cleveland wasn't willing to give Vizquel more than a 1-year contract - do they know something we don't know? This is not a young guy anymore.

ALso, Kenny often makes the WhiteSox frontrunners by giving up more than he should.
One reason is that Cleveland actually has a farm system that is capable of producing not requiring them to overpay for aging talent.


Bob

jabrch
11-10-2004, 08:47 AM
ALso, Kenny often makes the WhiteSox frontrunners by giving up more than he should.

OFTEN? How many times have we OVERPAYED to get a FA? Oh wait - I forgot... JR is cheap and KW is dumb. Sorry... Back to our regularly scheduled KW bashing.

PavanoBeltran'05
11-10-2004, 09:05 AM
Overpay, underpay...I don't care. By increasing payroll a little bit (as is being reported) and getting something for the Lee or Konerko scenario, we still have money to spend. It's not 30 million or anything, but it's possible to swap 8 or 9 million dollar guys with 2 or 3 1-2 million dollar guys that can get the job done. We need more solid players, period. We don't need superstars across the board.

And, if Vizquel is some aging dud, his glove sure doesn't act like it (11 errors). Also, it will be a welcome sight to see the guy get down bunts and move runners over, as well as getting clutch hits and catching fly balls in foul territory in key situations against division rivals.

The thing for the Sox is that they need a vacuum in the field. They need some guys that can come in and keep the pitchers confident. Too many Sox pitchers nibbled around last year because they were afraid of that defense behind them. They can let it all hang out if they've got a solid D behind them. Runs will be scored at USCF. That's no worry. We're talking about the 3-2 games that we can win with defense instead of losing all the time.

Flight #24
11-10-2004, 09:09 AM
My comment is that I'm amazed a "National" baseball writer can actually print a line like this:


without doing any sort of fact-checking. Literally dozens of people on this board have pointed out a) much of that money went to Garcia's extension and Contreras' salary and b) the rest will be eaten by raises to players currently under contract.
Not necessarily. If you interpret the quotes from KW on salary literally, that payroll would be kept flat from where it was at the end of the season, then you already had Garcia, Everett, Contreras 04 salaries in the budget prior to subtracting Maggs+Valentin. That means you take the increases off the top, which would be about 2-3mil total.

Of course that doesn't factor in raises to other players, but the various comments, etc seem to triangulate on the Sox having roughly 7-10mil to spend in FA prior to any trades of high salaried players.

Trading Koney+Garland for RJ would still then allow for other smaller moves.

PaulDrake
11-10-2004, 09:19 AM
It's about as exciting as getting R Alomar and Everett again. More bargain basement shopping in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle. I'm underwhelmed.

ja1022
11-10-2004, 09:51 AM
It's about as exciting as getting R Alomar and Everett again. More bargain basement shopping in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle. I'm underwhelmed.I couldn't have said it any better. I, and others have said in previous threads on the subject that this reeks of Robbie Alomar, but with a better attitude. I'd like to see the Sox make a serious play for a Vizquel type of player in his prime. I don't see this as adding any value now or over the long haul.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 09:59 AM
I couldn't have said it any better. I, and others have said in previous threads on the subject that this reeks of Robbie Alomar, but with a better attitude. I'd like to see the Sox mak a serious play for a Vizquel type of player in his prime. I don't see this as adding any value now or over the long haul.Not only is it going to cost them $8M to sign Vizquel, but they'll also give up a draft pick if they sign him before Dec 7, as appears likely. All for a guy who USED TO BE a Gold Glover and USED TO BE a good on-base man. Are there any more old Indians we haven't gotten yet? Oh yeah. The good ones.

SoxFanTillDeath
11-10-2004, 10:07 AM
It's about as exciting as getting R Alomar and Everett again. More bargain basement shopping in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle. I'm underwhelmed.

In retrospect it seams that Esteban Loaiza was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. I know he won 21 games 2 years ago, but hear me out. Ever since KW struck gold in a player everyone thought was washed up, and did it several other times (Gordon, Uribe) to a lesser extent, he has become the self-proclaimed resurrecter of talent. He keeps going out and getting guys whose careers are lame or over thinking he can make something out of nothing, and hasn't realized that getting lucky a few times doesn't make you the Atlanta Braves.

I am in no way KW bashing, but merely making a point. I'm sick of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. I want proven talent on this team.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 10:09 AM
In retrospect it seams that Esteban Loaiza was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. I know he won 21 games 2 years ago, but hear me out. Ever since KW struck gold in a player everyone thought was washed up, and did it several other times (Gordon, Uribe) to a lesser extent, he has become the self-proclaimed resurrecter of talent. He keeps going out and getting guys whose careers are lame or over thinking he can make something out of nothing, and hasn't realized that getting lucky a few times doesn't make you the Atlanta Braves.

I am in no way KW bashing, but merely making a point. I'm sick of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. I want proven talent on this team.But you're forgetting the resounding success of Rick White and Mike Jackson.

SoxxoS
11-10-2004, 10:15 AM
We are also in the market for Ellis Burks and Albert Belle :rolleyes:

I would get excited if it said "Sox frontrunner for Beltran" not for Vizquel.

mweflen
11-10-2004, 10:35 AM
Vizquel is not worth $4 mil per year. That much is agreed. I'd feel al lot more comfortable if it were $2-3mil. But I like the move in general because 1. it addresses a need (upgrading defense, BA, and OBP at SS) 2. it opens the door for Uribe to play everyday at 2B (unless the Wee Willie Experiment is forced to continue...)

Worst Case: No FA OF's can be found, Rowand shifts to RF, Willie plays CF...
2nd Worst case: Crede keeps sliding, Uribe plays 3rd every day, Willie at 2B...

The point is though, we will not have an everyday infield of Crede, Uribe, Harris and Gloadnerko. Bright side!

ja1022
11-10-2004, 10:38 AM
It's hard for me to get excited about a 38 year old shortstop. It seems to me that position players performing to a high level at this age are exceptions to the rule. Guys like Bonds and Fisk are the exceptions. Pitchers (Johnson, Schilling and Clemens) generally get four days off to heal and recuperate, but position players, particularly up the middle, endure alot of wear and tear on almost a daily basis. I'd just as soon see Uribe out there. By the way, I'm not into KW bashing. My take on it is, like him or not, he's the only GM we've got right now and I'd like him to be successful. I think Ozzie's the guy pushing for Vizquel. I think he's looking to add to his Venezuelan Baseball Player collection.

SoxxoS
11-10-2004, 10:39 AM
Hey PavanoBeltran-

You might as well change your name now to VizquelWickman'05 or something like that.

Hangar18
11-10-2004, 10:41 AM
[QUOTE=JRIG]My comment is that I'm amazed a "National" baseball writer can actually print a line like this: "By not signing Ordonez and Valentin, the Sox
have saved 19 million.....able to fill holes in their lineup and pitching"
QUOTE]

Hangar wouldve written:

"By not signing Ordonez and Valentin the SOX have more $$$$$ to Fill Holes in the lineup, Holes they themselves Created and Ignored the last few seasons."

But thats just me.

Wealz
11-10-2004, 10:51 AM
Phil Rogers writes:

Uribe, who was acquired from Colorado, started 38 games at shortstop last season. But Guillen never seemed to give him a chance to become a regular at that position, perhaps because he envisioned turning it over to Vizquel, who is only three years younger than Guillen.
Omar is just another crony of Ozzie.

JRIG
11-10-2004, 10:53 AM
Hey PavanoBeltran-

You might as well change your name now to VizquelWickman'05 or something like that.
Or BaergaPlunk'05

Or ErstadAlomar'10

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 11:07 AM
It's hard for me to get excited about a 38 year old shortstop. It seems to me that position players performing to a high level at this age are exceptions to the rule. Guys like Bonds and Fisk are the exceptions. Pitchers (Johnson, Schilling and Clemens) generally get four days off to heal and recuperate, but position players, particularly up the middle, endure alot of wear and tear on almost a daily basis. I'd just as soon see Uribe out there. By the way, I'm not into KW bashing. My take on it is, like him or not, he's the only GM we've got right now and I'd like him to be successful. I think Ozzie's the guy pushing for Vizquel. I think he's looking to add to his Venezuelan Baseball Player collection.There's a big difference between old pitchers and old infielders. Infielders rely on reflexes and quick movement - abilities that tend to decline quickly with age. Pitchers rely on strength, timing, coordination and fine motor adjustment. These things tend to persist later in life. There have been lots of highly successful 40+ pitchers, but how many successful 40+ SS can you think of?

ja1022
11-10-2004, 11:11 AM
There's a big difference between old pitchers and old infielders. Infielders rely on reflexes and quick movement - abilities that tend to decline quickly with age. Pitchers rely on strength, timing, coordination and fine motor adjustment. These things tend to persist later in life. There have been lots of highly successful 40+ pitchers, but how many successful 40+ SS can you think of?
My point exactly, Ol'.

c4birdiemaker
11-10-2004, 11:12 AM
forget vizquel...he's all done. if ur serious about filling e-6's shoes with a capable glove man ,get pokie and be done with it he's the best defensive infielder since rey ordonez. why does everyone want to trade lee and or konerko? they are the core and our future. if the money's that tight that the sox have to trade proven commodities and cant afford to keep reliable sluggers who show up to work everyday, than maybe we should root for a different team. a organization that tries to augment its existing talent instead of trading it away would be worthy. we should be ADDING guys like guillen, posada and benitez to the mix instead of trading lee and paulie for randy and omar. please, if chicago cant afford a 100 mil dollar payroll, then they should get out of the baseball business. you chicago people should try showing up to a game every now and then. those crowds are remeniscint of montreal. i live in connecticut and when i went to a game a comisky there was nobody there. c4

Mickster
11-10-2004, 11:16 AM
you chicago people should try showing up to a game every now and then. those crowds are remeniscint of montreal. i live in connecticut and when i went to a game a comisky there was nobody there. c4
:?: :tsk:

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 11:18 AM
forget vizquel...he's all done. if ur serious about filling e-6's shoes with a capable glove man ,get pokie and be done with it he's the best defensive infielder since rey ordonez. why does everyone want to trade lee and or konerko? they are the core and our future. if the money's that tight that the sox have to trade proven commodities and cant afford to keep reliable sluggers who show up to work everyday, than maybe we should root for a different team. a organization that tries to augment its existing talent instead of trading it away would be worthy. we should be ADDING guys like guillen, posada and benitez to the mix instead of trading lee and paulie for randy and omar. please, if chicago cant afford a 100 mil dollar payroll, then they should get out of the baseball business. you chicago people should try showing up to a game every now and then. those crowds are remeniscint of montreal. i live in connecticut and when i went to a game a comisky there was nobody there. c4Do they teach about such things as capitalization and punctuation in Connecticut schools?:tongue:

mdep524
11-10-2004, 12:22 PM
If the Sox sign Vizquel for two years, $6 million, I would be happy. The guy is still a solid player, and I do think he would be a good fit for this team. Something like four years $16 million would be overpaying though.

In that same article, Rogers mentions the Sox are looking at signing a catcher.
Having traded Miguel Olivo to Seattle last June, the White Sox are expected to look to free agency to fill the void at catcher. According to sources, two Midwesterners, Damian Miller and Dan Wilson, are on their radar screens.I can understand if Jason Kendall (via trade) or Jason Varitek are too expensive (though those guys are definitely the best 2 options), but why is there no mention of Mike Matheny?? He would be a be a relatively inexpensive veteran who calls a good game and plays solid defense.

santo=dorf
11-10-2004, 12:29 PM
Link:
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-041109rogers,1,1482279.column?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Whatcha think?
http://www.picdump.org/albums/forum/welcome_to_last_week.jpg

lowesox
11-10-2004, 01:18 PM
OFTEN? How many times have we OVERPAYED to get a FA?
ACtually, I meant overpay in the sense that Kenny always gives up more than he should (whether it's players or dollars) to get the guys he wants. He has no patience.

So the end part of your post was right, I did mean to bash Kenny. And, I would expect as this offseason moves on, I'll be doing a hell of a lot more of it. Since this team is going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

santo=dorf
11-10-2004, 01:24 PM
ACtually, I meant overpay in the sense that Kenny always gives up more than he should (whether it's players or dollars) to get the guys he wants. He has no patience.

So the end part of your post was right, I did mean to bash Kenny. And, I would expect as this offseason moves on, I'll be doing a hell of a lot more of it. Since this team is going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.
Okay, so when did KW overpay with money to get the guy he wanted?

When he signed Kenny Lofton to a one year $1 million deal?

Shingo's signing?

I can't think of any other free agents that were brought in during KW's tenure. :?:

And wouldn't going 180 degrees in the "wrong" direction be equivalent to going in the right direction? :wink:

gosox41
11-10-2004, 01:33 PM
Not only is it going to cost them $8M to sign Vizquel, but they'll also give up a draft pick if they sign him before Dec 7, as appears likely. All for a guy who USED TO BE a Gold Glover and USED TO BE a good on-base man. Are there any more old Indians we haven't gotten yet? Oh yeah. The good ones.
Typical KW. Overpaying for Vizquel and not waiting until Dec. 7 to sign him. I assume the Indians won't offer arbitration because it sounds like he really loved it there and may accept.


Bob

Brian26
11-10-2004, 01:40 PM
It's hard for me to get excited about a 38 year old shortstop. It seems to me that position players performing to a high level at this age are exceptions to the rule.

Great post. Some things to think about...

Vizquel is only 3 years younger than Ozzie. Vizquel played in Old Comiskey Park.

Yeah, I know Frank Thomas played at Old Comiskey too. There's a difference between a shortstop who needs great range to be a quality addition to the team and a 280lb DH who bats 4 times a game.

Brian26
11-10-2004, 01:42 PM
Typical KW. Overpaying for Vizquel and not waiting until Dec. 7 to sign him. I assume the Indians won't offer arbitration because it sounds like he really loved it there and may accept.


Bob

The Indians absolutely scare the hell out of me. They rebuilt and did it the correct way, all at the same time. Up and down that lineup they have young kids, all about the same age, and they all seem to be getting better and better. Blake, Gerut, Hafner, Broussard, Crisp...the kid that's going to take over at shortstop...Petralla I think. They're going to be a good team for years and years to come if they can get any kind of pitching.

gosox41
11-10-2004, 01:45 PM
The Indians absolutely scare the hell out of me. They rebuilt and did it the correct way, all at the same time. Up and down that lineup they have young kids, all about the same age, and they all seem to be getting better and better. Blake, Gerut, Hafner, Broussard, Crisp...the kid that's going to take over at shortstop...Petralla I think. They're going to be a good team for years and years to come if they can get any kind of pitching.
Yep. Young with a lot of potential, though they will have some inconsistency. But the Indains would have been better last season if they had a good bullpen. If they address that this year, they could be a much better team.


Bob

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 01:49 PM
Typical KW. Overpaying for Vizquel and not waiting until Dec. 7 to sign him. I assume the Indians won't offer arbitration because it sounds like he really loved it there and may accept.


BobThe Indians have until Dec 7 to offer arbitration. If Vizquel's already signed with the Sox by then, they can offer it without fear of his taking it, and they get a free draft pick. Teams do it all the time.

Cubbiesuck13
11-10-2004, 01:56 PM
Signing this guy if we were just waiting for someone in the minors to make the big leap would make sense. Signing him so we can have an average to above average deffense at best doesn't make much sense to me. I want us to trade away one of our big names and bring in a bunch of young talent like we did to get some of the guys we have now. I don't know who the next long term SS will be for us, but I hope it isn't someone who will be 40 in the next few years.

SoxFan76
11-10-2004, 02:15 PM
you chicago people should try showing up to a game every now and then. those crowds are remeniscint of montreal. i live in connecticut and when i went to a game a comisky there was nobody there. c4
Wow, time to shape up or you won't be on this board too long. This is the WRONG place to tell people to go to games. Most people on this board go to more Sox games in a month than some people will go in their lives. Being an 18 year old kid who doesn't have friends that want to go to baseball games, or the money, I only get to go to 2 or 3 games a year. Does it make me any less of a fan? Not really. If you want to discuss baseball, fine. Don't bring up attendance, and don't compare us to Les Expos.

Hangar18
11-10-2004, 02:46 PM
" The SOX are the frontrunners to sign Omar Vizquel"

:hawk "Right Size ......... Wrong Shape"


Jerry Rein$dorf wants me to get excited about a 38 yr old SS?
Jerry, i'll get excited about Carlos Beltran .......

gosox41
11-10-2004, 02:48 PM
The Indians have until Dec 7 to offer arbitration. If Vizquel's already signed with the Sox by then, they can offer it without fear of his taking it, and they get a free draft pick. Teams do it all the time.
Right. So the question is, is it wise for the Sox to sign him before Dec. 7 or should they wait until after Dec. 7.

Probably too late now since it looks like he will sign with the Sox for a lot of money, but I wonder if Vizquel would accept arbitration by the Indians if he were offered it.


Bob

c4birdiemaker
11-10-2004, 02:59 PM
i'll say what ever i feel and you will like it. i pay more for 1 yankee/sox game than you do for 3 white sox games so put a sock in it. it is obviously not the devotion of our excellent thread writers that is being questioned. it is the lack of interest and devotion on the part of the rest of the city. how can a team that is 100 years old command so little respect. 20,000 in comisky for a friday night gm. give me a break! i would be shocked if the yankees had less than 50,000 on any friday night all year! come to think of it they have 50,000 @ most home games.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 03:00 PM
I think some of you guys are looking at this the wrong way. Signing Vizquel is not meant to be the "big move" of the offseason. It's not like "Get Excited For '05 Sox Fans, We Got Vizquel!!" It's not designed to sell season tickets.

It's a solid addition to play shortstop for 2005. Renteria would have been nice, but pricey and thus limiting what else the Sox can do. Nomar's a waste. Cabrera's overrated. What else would you suggest the Sox do at SS? Considering the options, I would be happy to have Omar playing SS for a year or two, before we hopefully hand it off to Valido or some promising kid. (The only other move I would have liked as much would be to play Uribe at SS and trade for Hairston at 2B.)

At the same time, if this becomes some sort of big money, long term signing that we're supposed to hang our hat on, then it's a mistake. But without knowing the terms, or what else the Sox are cooking up this offseason, its hard to trash this move right now.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 03:02 PM
i'll say what ever i feel and you will like it.
Haha. Oh man, you're on thin ice. Get that Hawk icon ready...

:hawk
It's not like I have anything better to do in the offseason. No baseball, too cold for golf, all I do is sit around, and occasionally swear at Jay Mariotti.

hitlesswonder
11-10-2004, 03:04 PM
Right. So the question is, is it wise for the Sox to sign him before Dec. 7 or should they wait until after Dec. 7.

Probably too late now since it looks like he will sign with the Sox for a lot of money, but I wonder if Vizquel would accept arbitration by the Indians if he were offered it.


Bob
If the Sox really lose a pick by not waiting till Dec. 7, that's a move that seems really incompetent to me. I can't fathom why they would be so worried some other team will come in grab and Vizquel in that interval. It's really unlikely, and if it happens it's not like they lost out on Betran. If Vizquel wants to play for the Sox, they should simply agree to wait till after the arb. date. And, really, is another team going to give him 8 million over 2 years (assuming that's correct). I doubt it.

c4birdiemaker
11-10-2004, 03:05 PM
lol, please dont cut me. i dont know what i would do without my sox threads!

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 03:09 PM
If the Sox really lose a pick by not waiting till Dec. 7, that's a move that seems really incompetent to me. I can't fathom why they would be so worried some other team will come in grab and Vizquel in that interval. It's really unlikely, and if it happens it's not like they lost out on Betran. If Vizquel wants to play for the Sox, they should simply agree to wait till after the arb. date. And, really, is another team going to give him 8 million over 2 years (assuming that's correct). I doubt it.I wouldn't be too sure about that. I think there are a number of teams for which Vizquel might be a nice addition. Just not the Sox. He has supposedly been talking to other teams. I think the D-backs were interested, among others.

gosox41
11-10-2004, 03:09 PM
If the Sox really lose a pick by not waiting till Dec. 7, that's a move that seems really incompetent to me. I can't fathom why they would be so worried some other team will come in grab and Vizquel in that interval. It's really unlikely, and if it happens it's not like they lost out on Betran. If Vizquel wants to play for the Sox, they should simply agree to wait till after the arb. date. And, really, is another team going to give him 8 million over 2 years (assuming that's correct). I doubt it.
But now that it's leaked out that Vizquel is going to sign with the Sox amybe it doesn't matter.

The Indians will offer Vizquel arbitration if they know there's a great chance he won't be back. They don't want his salary on the books next year. If the Indians are confident he's as good as gone, they'll offer it. But if Vizquel likes Cleveland as much as I've read that he does, he may consdier a chance to stay there. It's hard to tell without knowing the status of their relationship.

But if the Sox are going to give up a pick now, they might as well wait until after Dec. 7 and see if Cleveland offers arbitration or not. Maybe the Indians will be conservative enough not to offer him arbitration on the fear he may accept it.


Bob

Mickster
11-10-2004, 03:11 PM
how can a team that is 100 years old command so little respect. 20,000 in comisky for a friday night gm. give me a break! i would be shocked if the yankees had less than 50,000 on any friday night all year! come to think of it they have 50,000 @ most home games.
Look at history, pal. Yank's attendance prior to 1996 was pathetic. 8 Years of massively high attendance is great run, but don't get too cocky....

mdep524
11-10-2004, 03:12 PM
I think there are a number of teams for which Vizquel might be a nice addition. Just not the Sox.
I still don't get why you dislike the Vizquel idea so much. If the Sox don't/didn't pursue Vizquel, what do you want them to do at SS and 2B for 2005?

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 03:21 PM
I still don't get why you dislike the Vizquel idea so much. If the Sox don't/didn't pursue Vizquel, what do you want them to do at SS and 2B for 2005?I'm not unhappy with Crede-Uribe-Harris. Everything I see says they'll be just as good as a 38-year old Vizquel. And $8M cheaper, which could be used for other, more badly needed improvements.

maurice
11-10-2004, 03:23 PM
Wow, time to shape up or you won't be on this board too long. This is the WRONG place to tell people to go to games.
You couldn't be more wrong! A team that has won zero championships in 87 years DESERVES to draw at least 3 million fans / year, just like the MLB team from Connecticut does.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 03:32 PM
I'm not unhappy with Crede-Uribe-Harris. Everything I see says they'll be just as good as a 38-year old Vizquel. And $8M cheaper, which could be used for other, more badly needed improvements.
Sorry Ol' No. 2, any infield with Willie Harris in it is not acceptable. I agree that $4 mil/year is a bit steep for Vizquel, but until the contract is signed we really don't know what the terms are going to be. Even at $4 mil, signing Vizquel does not prevent the Sox from addressing other areas of the team. How can a guy whose name and sig are a tribute to such a great second baseman be willing to accept garbage like Harris?

WSox8404
11-10-2004, 03:32 PM
One reason is that Cleveland actually has a farm system that is capable of producing not requiring them to overpay for aging talent.


Bob
Most of the people here are saying that he is not worth 4 million. Are you kidding me? Before this year started almost everyone here was trying to justify Jose making 5 million. He is a leader is what most people said. Please. If Jose was justified in making 5 million this year Omar is surely worth 4.

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 03:42 PM
There's a big difference between old pitchers and old infielders. Infielders rely on reflexes and quick movement - abilities that tend to decline quickly with age. Pitchers rely on strength, timing, coordination and fine motor adjustment. These things tend to persist later in life. There have been lots of highly successful 40+ pitchers, but how many successful 40+ SS can you think of?
Ozzie Smith? Ever heard of him? He won a GG at 37-38 and if he didn't rely on reflexes and quick movements you don't know baseball.
Vizquel is only going to cost $4 mil a year. That's peanuts in today's market. And who will play SS anyways? Uribe?

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 03:48 PM
Sorry Ol' No. 2, any infield with Willie Harris in it is not acceptable. I agree that $4 mil/year is a bit steep for Vizquel, but until the contract is signed we really don't know what the terms are going to be. Even at $4 mil, signing Vizquel does not prevent the Sox from addressing other areas of the team. How can a guy whose name and sig are a tribute to such a great second baseman be willing to accept garbage like Harris?And, as you would have probably guessed, I played 2B as well. What is it about Harris that you don't like? His .343 OBP? Equal to Vizquel's career .341. His .262 BA? Not that much different from Vizquel's career .275. His meager 19 SB? Equal to Vizquel's 2004 numbers. His defense? Vizquel is not the gold glover anymore. Uribe is at least equal at SS, and Harris is solid defensively. Add in the likelihood that Harris is young and likely to get better while Vizquel is likely to continue to decline. What is there to like about this deal? I don't understand at all why some people are so down on Harris. Please tell me what it is that you don't like about Harris that you like about Vizquel.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 03:52 PM
Ozzie Smith? Ever heard of him? He won a GG at 37-38 and if he didn't rely on reflexes and quick movements you don't know baseball.
Vizquel is only going to cost $4 mil a year. That's peanuts in today's market. And who will play SS anyways? Uribe?Ozzie Smith is the rare exception. Vizquel has already lost at least a step. His knees are bad. And those peanuts are enough to pay for a solid reliever like Tom Gordon.

I saw Ozzie Smith play. Ozzie Smith was an idol of mine. Vizquel is no Ozzie Smith.

c4birdiemaker
11-10-2004, 03:54 PM
believe it or not, the ct white sox would draw great here. we could easily support another baseball team but why bother when anyone in ct can make it to the stadium or shea in 45 min. your right about the yanks lousy attendance in the 80's. they didn't like george much back then, but i feel he has proven to the fans that all he wants to do is win and thats all they care about. the yankees started drawing again when he started making big investments in players. in the 80's they had reggie and winfield and mattingly, but now they have the modern day equivilant @ almost every position and the fans rewarded him with enormous crowds daily. on a couple of occasions this year, george gave everyone who stayed through bad weather free tickets. the fans dont forget that stuff. i'm not askin reinsdorf to spend 250 mil, but it would be nice for a change if they wouldnt go into an offseason saying that the payroll is staying the same and we are not increasing it at all. why would you close all doors leading to guillen when we dont have a right fielder? shouldn't we have made that trade when the asking price is lowest? c4

hitlesswonder
11-10-2004, 03:56 PM
I have to agree with Ol' No. 2. With the Sox budget, why do people think 4 million isn't a big deal? And it's a multi-year contract for a 40 year-old SS no less. If the Sox routinely overpay by only a couple of million a year per player (like with Konerko), they end up not being able to sign players they need (like Tom Gordon last year).

And just to add more rumors to the mill, from the Soxtalk website:
According the Sports Weekly and Bob Nightengale, the Sox will sign Omar to a 2-year deal worth $10 million dollars and a 2007 option. Sports Weekly also says, the Indians are on the verge of signing Armando Benitez and that the Twins offered Brad Radke a 2-year deal worth $14 million, but at least 3 other teams are willing to give him a 3-year deal worth over 30 million.

This is no web source, this came out of the Big League Buzz Section in the Sports Weekly newspaper.

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 04:03 PM
Ozzie Smith is the rare exception. Vizquel has already lost at least a step. His knees are bad. And those peanuts are enough to pay for a solid reliever like Tom Gordon.

I saw Ozzie Smith play. Ozzie Smith was an idol of mine. Vizquel is no Ozzie Smith.
Omar will be 38 when the season starts next year. And while he has lost a step, he's still one of the top defensive SS out there. And why is it bad that Omar has a bad knee and a 40 year old pitcher has knee problems isn't a bad thing. The same 40 year old pitcher who will cost 3 times more than Omar?

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 04:05 PM
Ozzie Smith is the rare exception. Vizquel has already lost at least a step. His knees are bad. And those peanuts are enough to pay for a solid reliever like Tom Gordon.

I saw Ozzie Smith play. Ozzie Smith was an idol of mine. Vizquel is no Ozzie Smith.
Oh one other thing, Ozzie couldn't hold Mark Belanger's jock when it came to being the best defensive SS.

Mark Belanger the best defensive SS ever. There is no agrument. You can argue but you would be wrong.

lowesox
11-10-2004, 04:07 PM
If Kenny gives him a 2yr/10 million contract he should be fired on the spot. Vizquel is maybe worth 3 million on a 1 yr deal. Anything more than that is VERY risky.

Mickster
11-10-2004, 04:08 PM
According the Sports Weekly and Bob Nightengale, the Sox will sign Omar to a 2-year deal worth $10 million dollars and a 2007 option.
I'm not sure that I like Omar at $8M/2years but I am certain that I hate him at $10M/2yrs plus a 2007 option! :(:

hitlesswonder
11-10-2004, 04:10 PM
If Kenny gives him a 2yr/10 million contract he should be fired on the spot. Vizquel is maybe worth 3 million on a 1 yr deal. Anything more than that is VERY risky.
Don't forget the option year...if it's a player option for the third year, it's even more expensive. I'm hoping this is just wrong. It would be overpaying terribly.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 04:14 PM
Omar will be 38 when the season starts next year. And while he has lost a step, he's still one of the top defensive SS out there. And why is it bad that Omar has a bad knee and a 40 year old pitcher has knee problems isn't a bad thing. The same 40 year old pitcher who will cost 3 times more than Omar?He's not still one of the top defensive SS. His fielding stats are comparable with Uribe. Look them up. And the difference is that:

1. Pitchers don't rely so much on speed and agility, so a little knee problem isn't so critical,
2. Johnson has shown no signs of declining. In fact, except for 2003 when he was hurt, Johnson's last 6 years have been some of the best of his entire career. Vizquel's best days are clearly behind him,
3. Johnson is a difference-maker. Vizquel is just tinkering around the edges. You might pay 3 times as much, but you'll get 10 times as much.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 04:15 PM
Oh one other thing, Ozzie couldn't hold Mark Belanger's jock when it came to being the best defensive SS.

Mark Belanger the best defensive SS ever. There is no agrument. You can argue but you would be wrong.YOU are the one who brought up Ozzie Smith, not me.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 04:27 PM
I'm not sure that I like Omar at $8M/2years but I am certain that I hate him at $10M/2yrs plus a 2007 option! :(:
I agree, that would be ridiculous. Good God I hope kW has better judgement than that.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 04:30 PM
Don't forget the option year...if it's a player option for the third year, it's even more expensive. I'm hoping this is just wrong. It would be overpaying terribly..http://www.hickmanfamily.us/images/misc/money_down_the_toilet_hg_wht.gif

ja1022
11-10-2004, 04:33 PM
Ozzie Smith? Ever heard of him? He won a GG at 37-38 and if he didn't rely on reflexes and quick movements you don't know baseball.
Vizquel is only going to cost $4 mil a year. That's peanuts in today's market. And who will play SS anyways? Uribe?
Ozzie Smith won a Gold Glove at 37, his last of 13 in a row. Vizquel won nine Gold Gloves in a row, his last in 2001 at 34. Vizquel doesn't have the range Smith had at 37, and is three years removed from his best defensive days. Again, I hope I'm wrong (if they get him), but I don't see the value here.

Kennyball
11-10-2004, 04:33 PM
I still don't understand how people think Vizquel will be a huge defensive improvement. Sure, looking at his errors and fielding percentage, they are better than Valentin. But, you know what, you can't make an error on a ball you're too slow to get to in the first place.

Valentin last season had more Fielding Win Shares than Vizquel (6.1 compared to Vizquel's 4.5), a better zone rating (.878 compared to Vizquel's .840), and better Fielding Runs Against Replacement (26 compared to Vizquel's 20). In fact, if Vizquel improves anything for the White Sox, it's offensively, as he had more Batting Win Shares than Valentin, (12.4 compared to Valentin's 8.4) which is a huge testament to how far Valentin had fallen offensively.

And, when you look at the free agents available this off-season, Vizquel is in the middle of the pack defensively.

Personally, I'd go after Craig Counsell cheaply, sit him against left handed pitchers, and use a combination of Uribe, Harris, and Valdez to play 2B/SS on those days, and spend the money in the bullpen.

At the very least, wait out the market. There are so many SS FA this year. Vizquels are a dime a dozen this off-season...

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 04:38 PM
He's not still one of the top defensive SS. His fielding stats are comparable with Uribe. Look them up. And the difference is that:

1. Pitchers don't rely so much on speed and agility, so a little knee problem isn't so critical,
2. Johnson has shown no signs of declining. In fact, except for 2003 when he was hurt, Johnson's last 6 years have been some of the best of his entire career. Vizquel's best days are clearly behind him,
3. Johnson is a difference-maker. Vizquel is just tinkering around the edges. You might pay 3 times as much, but you'll get 10 times as much.
Umm pitchers rely on their back knee to push off and their front knee to land. Any pain or problems with either knee and a pitcher is going to be off. Unit had knee problems in 2003.

As for fielding stats, if you're going to base things off of fielding stats, then there's no point agruing with you. Hey Carlos Lee didn't make any errors. Give him the Gold Glove. Omar still gets to balls most SS can only pray to come close to.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 04:38 PM
And, as you would have probably guessed, I played 2B as well. What is it about Harris that you don't like? His .343 OBP? Equal to Vizquel's career .341. His .262 BA? Not that much different from Vizquel's career .275. His meager 19 SB? Equal to Vizquel's 2004 numbers. His defense? Vizquel is not the gold glover anymore. Uribe is at least equal at SS, and Harris is solid defensively. Add in the likelihood that Harris is young and likely to get better while Vizquel is likely to continue to decline. What is there to like about this deal? I don't understand at all why some people are so down on Harris. Please tell me what it is that you don't like about Harris that you like about Vizquel.
See, I like to use numbers too. But you cannot judge everything about a player based ONLY on his numbers. If you WATCH Willie Harris play baseball, you see a guy with no confidence and no intelligence who does not show potential for improvement. He handles the bat poorly, can't bunt well, and has no power or exceptional defensive skills to offset his crappiness elsewhere. If anything, I think Willie will REGRESS next year, and we will see a lower BA and OBP.

Is Vizquel still a GGer? It's debateable, certainly not as cut and dry as you make it seem. Either way, he is still a terrific defensive infielder, significantly better than Harris.

Add to that the fact the shortstop is a very important position on the field and perhaps in the locker room. Vizquel offers many leadership, intelligence and experience intangibles that Willie Harris could never dream of.

I agree a big investment in Vizquel is stupid, but I can't understand how a knowledgeable former 2B like yourself could even attempt to defend Willie Harris.

JUribe1989
11-10-2004, 04:40 PM
He's not still one of the top defensive SS. His fielding stats are comparable with Uribe. Look them up. And the difference is that:

1. Pitchers don't rely so much on speed and agility, so a little knee problem isn't so critical,
2. Johnson has shown no signs of declining. In fact, except for 2003 when he was hurt, Johnson's last 6 years have been some of the best of his entire career. Vizquel's best days are clearly behind him,
3. Johnson is a difference-maker. Vizquel is just tinkering around the edges. You might pay 3 times as much, but you'll get 10 times as much.
Omar hit .291 last year which is a humongous improvement over Jose Valentin's .216. Also, think of how huge it is to have him at shortstop over Valentin.

Valentin - 20 errors in 122 games
Vizquel - 11 errors in 147 games

Even though Vizquel isn't a premier shortstop anymore, he is still a huge improvement over Jose in the field and Vizquel is hitting the best he has the last 5 years.

Mickster
11-10-2004, 04:45 PM
Omar hit .291 last year which is a humongous improvement over Jose Valentin's .216. Also, think of how huge it is to have him at shortstop over Valentin.

Valentin - 20 errors in 122 games
Vizquel - 11 errors in 147 games

Even though Vizquel isn't a premier shortstop anymore, he is still a huge improvement over Jose in the field and Vizquel is hitting the best he has the last 5 years.
But at $5M/yr though? I'll bet that Cabrera gets a multi-year deal in the neighborhood of $7M/year. If you're willing to pay $5M, why not $7M???

JUribe1989
11-10-2004, 04:50 PM
But at $5M/yr though? I'll bet that Cabrera gets a multi-year deal in the neighborhood of $7M/year. If you're willing to pay $5M, why not $7M???
It's always nice to have an extra 2 million lying around plus Cabrera is good, but I haven't seen a non power hitter swing for the fences so much since Corey Patterson.

hitlesswonder
11-10-2004, 04:52 PM
If you WATCH Willie Harris play baseball, you see a guy with no confidence and no intelligence who does not show potential for improvement. He handles the bat poorly, can't bunt well, and has no power or exceptional defensive skills to offset his crappiness elsewhere. If anything, I think Willie will REGRESS next year, and we will see a lower BA and OBP.
I agree he doesn't look confident, but how can you say he shows no potential for improvement:

Year AVG OBP SB
2001 .125 .125 0
2002 .233 .270 8
2003 .204 .259 12
2004 .262 .343 19

He's already shown actual improvement, and he's young enough that he should get better. And if you want some non-stat based argument, in the games I saw last year, Harris looked good on D at 2B. Look, I'm not saying he's a good player. And I think absolutely no one is sayng Vizquel is bad. It's just a I don't think Vizquel is worth 4 or 5 million a year. H ecertianly doesn't look like he's worth that much more than Harris to me. Just my opinion.

Mickster
11-10-2004, 04:52 PM
It's always nice to have an extra 2 million lying around plus Cabrera is good, but I haven't seen a non power hitter swing for the fences so much since Corey Patterson.
Might do him some good in Coors East.

ja1022
11-10-2004, 04:54 PM
he is still a terrific defensive infielder.

Add to that the fact the shortstop is a very important position on the field and perhaps in the locker room. Vizquel offers many leadership, intelligence and experience intangibles.
Again, see Alomar, Roberto 2003. Granted, Vizquel has a better attitude, but the same things were being said about Robbie Alomar in 2003.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 05:02 PM
Holy Duck Snort! I'm in a fencing match with three opponents! OK, I'm going to answer all three at once instead of polluting this thread with multiple posts.

JUribe: Who cares if Vizquel is an improvement over Valentin? Valentin's gone. The question is, is Vizquel-Uribe an improvement over Uribe-Harris? No.

LAWSfan: Infielders rely a lot more on quickness than pitchers, and when the knees start to go, that's where they lose it, quickness. Take it from one who's been there. You still feel like you're just as fast, but the ball you used to get to is now just off the tip of your glove. No, I don't put that much stock in fielding statistics for comparing players, but Vizquel's have declined from his best years, which is meaningful. You're not going to tell me he's getting to more balls than he used to, are you? If he isn't losing it, why is Cleveland replacing him with a guy who can't even spell Johnny?

mdep: We're obviously seeing very different things. When I watch Harris, I see a player that's still got some rough edges, to be sure, but he has outstanding range, and fields his position pretty well. I don't see "no confidence" or "no intelligence" at all. He's got tremendous speed, and you can't teach that. He needs to learn how to use it, and I'm hopeful that Raines will be able to do what Santana obviously couldn't He improved tremendously from 2003, and the numbers reflect that. I can't think of a single reason to expect he will regress. He's young. He needs work. But he's the real deal.

Anyone else want a piece of me?

mdep524
11-10-2004, 05:06 PM
Again, see Alomar, Roberto 2003. Granted, Vizquel has a better attitude, but the same things were being said about Robbie Alomar in 2003.
I see your point, but that is a dangerous road to go down. Just becasue Roberto Alomar flopped does that mean the Sox should never go for an older veteran, even if their braintrust/scouts believe this player has potential to be a success with the Sox? Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Julio Franco all have had success into their 40s, so not every veteran will immediately turn into Robby Alomar.

I agree the Sox should not view Vizquel as some long term solution, and I think everyone agrees some of these contract figures we are hearing are on the high side (what contracts aren't in free agency?), but considering all the options, I think Vizquel is among the best for '05 if the Sox are trying to compete. Whether they are really trying to compete or not will be revealed in the rest of their offseason moves.

ja1022
11-10-2004, 05:06 PM
Omar still gets to balls most SS can only pray to come close to.
Buddy, you're wrong. Now you can argue, but you'd still be wrong. He is good with everything he gets to, but his range is not great.

FightingBillini
11-10-2004, 05:09 PM
I like Omar Vizquel. He is still one of the best defensively, he is a team leader, and itsnt a liability offensively. Other teams, including Boston, want him. I wouldnt mind him on the White Sox. However, I think $4 mil can be better spent. Think of it in these terms:
Cadillac Escalades are great. Anyone should be proud to own an Escalade. However, you shouldnt buy a new Escalade when you make $20,000 a year. The Red Sox can afford to buy their Escalade. They make more money than us, they pay their rent, and always have money for food. It would be foolish for us to spend $4 or even 5:o: million a year for Vizquel when there are so many other holes on the team.

The White Sox with Omar Vizquel are "hood rich".

ja1022
11-10-2004, 05:11 PM
I see your point, but that is a dangerous road to go down. Just becasue Roberto Alomar flopped does that mean the Sox should never go for an older veteran, even if their braintrust/scouts believe this player has potential to be a success with the Sox? Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Julio Franco all have had success into their 40s, so not every veteran will immediately turn into Robby Alomar.

I agree the Sox should not view Vizquel as some long term solution, and I think everyone agrees some of these contract figures we are hearing are on the high side (what contracts aren't in free agency?), but considering all the options, I think Vizquel is among the best for '05 if the Sox are trying to compete. Whether they are really trying to compete or not will be revealed in the rest of their offseason moves.
Per my earlier post
Johnson and Clemens---Pitchers
Bonds (Fisk)---Exceptions
Franco---DH

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't even see Vizquel as a short term solution.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2004, 05:15 PM
I like Omar Vizquel. He is still one of the best defensively, he is a team leader, and itsnt a liability offensively. Other teams, including Boston, want him. I wouldnt mind him on the White Sox. However, I think $4 mil can be better spent. Think of it in these terms:
Cadillac Escalades are great. Anyone should be proud to own an Escalade. However, you shouldnt buy a new Escalade when you make $20,000 a year. The Red Sox can afford to buy their Escalade. They make more money than us, they pay their rent, and always have money for food. It would be foolish for us to spend $4 or even 5:o: million a year for Vizquel when there are so many other holes on the team.

The White Sox with Omar Vizquel are "hood rich".Let's put it in these terms. Forget whether Vizquel is better than Uribe or Harris or whatever. For the $4M (or heaven forbid, $5M) they're going to pay Vizquel, they could get a pretty good reliever. Tom Gordon signed with the Yankees last year for less than that. Otherwise, we're going to see the successor in the Rick White/Mike Jackson/??? train. So the real comparison is:

Vizquel (SS) + Uribe (2B) + White/Jackson/??? (BP):(:

vs.

Uribe (SS) + Harris (2B) + Tom Gordon equivalent (BP):smile:

Do you really need to think about this?

eshunn2001
11-10-2004, 06:04 PM
Per my earlier post
Johnson and Clemens---Pitchers
Bonds (Fisk)---Exceptions
Franco---DH

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't even see Vizquel as a short term solution.
Franco plays in the NL.

ja1022
11-10-2004, 06:17 PM
Franco plays in the NL.
OOOOPS!!! As I recall, Atlanta is still in the NL. I hear he may even be reporting his age in Danny Almonte years, too. Damn, he is pretty good for an old fart.

jabrch
11-10-2004, 06:49 PM
Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't even see Vizquel as a short term solution.
If he hits his 3 year averages, he'd be a significant contributor for 2 years.

maurice
11-10-2004, 08:24 PM
I'm in a fencing match with three opponents!
Sorry to leave you hanging. I posted a defense of Harris in a different thread, but the Willie-haters provided no meaningful response. Just to recap some of my earlier points:
- Harris is on course to become a quality major league 2B
- 2Bs with a big bat are few and far between; most are playing out of position
- For this reason alone, even assuming that he only improves maginally, Harris' numbers will be sufficient to get him a starting job in MLB for many years to come
- He's not there yet because he only has 733 MLB ABs, but already demonstrates an advanced ability to draw walks
- A winning team does not require a great 2B (see the only two 100+ win teams from 2004)

soxwon
11-10-2004, 08:54 PM
when i was in cleveland, during that 4 hour rain delay vs the sox.
i spoke with many indian fans, they expressed the opinion, they would love to get omar back for next season.
because he takes time to teach the youngsters how to play defense, plus he is very popular, and still a very good hitter.
they had hoped he would then retire and coach for the tribe.
i mentioned the white sox getting him and most replied that we would be getting one heck of a player despite the age.
i cant see this as anything but good.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 09:35 PM
Sorry to leave you hanging. I posted a defense of Harris in a different thread, but the Willie-haters provided no meaningful response. Just to recap some of my earlier points:
- Harris is on course to become a quality major league 2B I hope I'm wrong, but I still don't see this.

- 2Bs with a big bat are few and far between; most are playing out of position I don't see not playing out of position makes Willie any more qualified. Putting Uribe at 2B allows the Sox to improve on other areas of the field.

- He's not there yet because he only has 733 MLB ABs, but already demonstrates an advanced ability to draw walks From watching Willie, I think his above average walk rate is due to him being overly tentative at the plate, not because of good judgement. He just doesn't have the confidence to swing, so he leaves the bat on his shoulder. (For example, how many times did Willie strike out looking on a 3-2 pitch this season? Many.) Not exactly a positive quality.

- A winning team does not require a great 2B (see the only two 100+ win teams from 2004)2004 Cardinals- Tony Womack had an AMAZING year for St. Louis. He sparked their offense from the #1 spot all year long.
2004 Yankees- exception to any rule, considering they have two HALL OF FAME shortstops on their infield and a $180 million payroll. When the Sox get ARod and Jeter, then it will be OK to plug Willie in at 2B. While they have Crede and Uribe, they need a more consistent, solid, experienced player beside them.

JUribe1989
11-10-2004, 09:51 PM
[QUOTE=Ol' No. 2]

JUribe: Who cares if Vizquel is an improvement over Valentin? Valentin's gone. The question is, is Vizquel-Uribe an improvement over Uribe-Harris? No.

QUOTE]

Who says? Vizquel is a better hitter than Harris and he is proven. I'd much rather have Vizquel-Uribe

gosox41
11-11-2004, 09:24 AM
Most of the people here are saying that he is not worth 4 million. Are you kidding me? Before this year started almost everyone here was trying to justify Jose making 5 million. He is a leader is what most people said. Please. If Jose was justified in making 5 million this year Omar is surely worth 4.
I'm one of thsoe people. He's not worth all that money.



Bob

JRIG
11-11-2004, 09:50 AM
Previous to last year's resurgence of .291/.353/.388, Vizqeuel's three previous seasons were:

2001: .255/.323/.334
2002: .275/.341/.418
2003: .244/.321/.336

So what's more likely? That he continues the climb at the age of 38, or he slips back to the .260/.330/.355 level?

That's not worth $8 million over the next two years especially considering his defense has slipped as well.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 10:30 AM
I hope I'm wrong, but I still don't see this.

I don't see not playing out of position makes Willie any more qualified. Putting Uribe at 2B allows the Sox to improve on other areas of the field.

From watching Willie, I think his above average walk rate is due to him being overly tentative at the plate, not because of good judgement. He just doesn't have the confidence to swing, so he leaves the bat on his shoulder. (For example, how many times did Willie strike out looking on a 3-2 pitch this season? Many.) Not exactly a positive quality.

2004 Cardinals- Tony Womack had an AMAZING year for St. Louis. He sparked their offense from the #1 spot all year long.
2004 Yankees- exception to any rule, considering they have two HALL OF FAME shortstops on their infield and a $180 million payroll. When the Sox get ARod and Jeter, then it will be OK to plug Willie in at 2B. While they have Crede and Uribe, they need a more consistent, solid, experienced player beside them.So if he doesn't walk, he's too impatient. And if he does draw walks, it's because he's overly tentative. In other words, no matter what he does, you don't like it. Don't you think you're being just a teensy bit biased? And for the record, with a 3-2 count, Willie was 15-49 (.306) with a .493 OBP. Pretty crappy, all right.

mdep524
11-11-2004, 01:12 PM
So if he doesn't walk, he's too impatient. And if he does draw walks, it's because he's overly tentative. In other words, no matter what he does, you don't like it. Don't you think you're being just a teensy bit biased? And for the record, with a 3-2 count, Willie was 15-49 (.306) with a .493 OBP. Pretty crappy, all right.I never said he was impatient, just that he was tentative. At the plate, and on the basepaths also. Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, even Mark Bellhorn, I would say those guys show proper plate discipline, while Willie is just in over his head up there.

Oh, and if you think Willie's 3-2 count numbers are good, compare them to Omar Vizquel's: .368 BA, .550 OBP. Over 50 points better than Wee Willie in each category.

santo=dorf
11-11-2004, 01:24 PM
So if he doesn't walk, he's too impatient. And if he does draw walks, it's because he's overly tentative. In other words, no matter what he does, you don't like it. Don't you think you're being just a teensy bit biased? And for the record, with a 3-2 count, Willie was 15-49 (.306) with a .493 OBP. Pretty crappy, all right.
Willie only had a full count 49 times last season? That ****ing sucks!!!!!! I get sick of seeing Willie start off the game by striking out on 3 pitches. :angry:
I'm also tired of hearing about Willie's OBP. It is very misleading. Here's how he does it.

5-5
0-4
0-3 1BB
1-4
0-4
OBP: .350

SoxxoS
11-11-2004, 01:31 PM
Willie only had a full count 49 times last season? That ****ing sucks!!!!!! I get sick of seeing Willie start off the game by striking out on 3 pitches. :angry:
I'm also tired of hearing about Willie's OBP. It is very misleading. Here's how he does it.

5-5
0-4
0-3 1BB
1-4
0-4
OBP: .350

Exactly....and our TEAM would win the first game, lose the next 2, win another one and win/lose the next one...all which equals nowhere...or a .500 record.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 01:35 PM
Willie only had a full count 49 times last season? That ****ing sucks!!!!!! I get sick of seeing Willie start off the game by striking out on 3 pitches. :angry:
I'm also tired of hearing about Willie's OBP. It is very misleading. Here's how he does it.

5-5
0-4
0-3 1BB
1-4
0-4
OBP: .350If you get sick of seeing Willie strike out on three pitches, you get sick pretty easily. He did it only 13 times all season.

I'm really getting tired of this argument. If you guys like Vizquel so much, it looks like you're going to get your wish. For at least the next two years. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's a waste of money that could be spent on more pressing needs. Or maybe you didn't mind seeing Mike Jackson coming in from the bullpen last year. It still comes down to this:

Vizquel-Uribe-Mike Jackson II or Uribe-Harris-Steve Kline (or equivalent)

Let me think a while...that's long enough. No contest.

santo=dorf
11-11-2004, 02:03 PM
Willie Harris struck out on 3 pitches 13 times!?!?!? That's ridiculous for a supposed lead-off hitter.

I'm not worried about our bullpen. I feel that it's time for some of the kids to step up (Bajenaru, Munoz, Diaz, Cotts, Adkins) and I just can't stand the idea of paying a guy $3 million+ to pitch 60 innings a year unless he is the closer. Look at our bullpen in 2000.

You can forget about Kline, the Yankees want him.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 02:09 PM
Willie Harris struck out on 3 pitches 13 times!?!?!? That's ridiculous for a supposed lead-off hitter.

I'm not worried about our bullpen. I feel that it's time for some of the kids to step up (Bajenaru, Munoz, Diaz, Cotts, Adkins) and I just can't stand the idea of paying a guy $3 million+ to pitch 60 innings a year unless he is the closer. Look at our bullpen in 2000.

You can forget about Kline, the Yankees want him.I'm VERY worried about the bullpen. After a starting pitcher, I put it as the next highest priority, which, I guess, is why I don't want to spend money on Vizquel untill AFTER they've addressed that. It was time for them to step up last year, too. They need at least one solid reliever. And I didn't mean Kline specifically, but "Kline or equivalent". They need a guy of that caliber. I have A LOT more confidence in Harris playing 2B than I do in Bajenaru, Munoz, et al in the bullpen.

mdep524
11-11-2004, 02:19 PM
I'm VERY worried about the bullpen. After a starting pitcher, I put it as the next highest priority, which, I guess, is why I don't want to spend money on Vizquel untill AFTER they've addressed that. It was time for them to step up last year, too. They need at least one solid reliever. And I didn't mean Kline specifically, but "Kline or equivalent". They need a guy of that caliber. I have A LOT more confidence in Harris playing 2B than I do in Bajenaru, Munoz, et al in the bullpen.
Everybody is worried about the bullpen, but Uribe-Harris-Kline is not going to win more games than Vizquel-Uribe-Politte.

Almost every single team in the majors has bullpen woes. All it takes is one or two guys to step up to turn a mediocre bullpen into an above average bullpen. Nobody thought Julian Tavarez or Ray King were bullpen saviors before they went to St. Louis. Nobody thought Tanyan Sturtze would be the glue of the Yankees bullpen. Joe Borowski 2003, Eric Gagne 2002, K-Rod 2002. These guys all came out of nowhere. The Sox can be creative and fill their bullpen holes economically.

Ol' No. 2
11-11-2004, 02:24 PM
Everybody is worried about the bullpen, but Uribe-Harris-Kline is not going to win more games than Vizquel-Uribe-Politte.

Almost every single team in the majors has bullpen woes. All it takes is one or two guys to step up to turn a mediocre bullpen into an above average bullpen. Nobody thought Julian Tavarez or Ray King were bullpen saviors before they went to St. Louis. Nobody thought Tanyan Sturtze would be the glue of the Yankees bullpen. Joe Borowski 2003, Eric Gagne 2002, K-Rod 2002. These guys all came out of nowhere. The Sox can be creative and fill their bullpen holes economically.But they've already got Cliff Politte. From past history, we should be VERY AFRAID of what Kenny will put in the Sox bullpen next year. He will probably be a direct descendant in the Rick White - Mike Jackson line. And we get these guys because they spend the money elsewhere. Just for once I'd like to see them go out and get a decent reliever instead of counting on miracles. I'd much rather play Willie and can "Son of Mike Jackson" in favor of someone that might actually be able to pitch for a change.

mdep524
11-11-2004, 02:38 PM
But they've already got Cliff Politte. From past history, we should be VERY AFRAID of what Kenny will put in the Sox bullpen next year. He will probably be a direct descendant in the Rick White - Mike Jackson line. And we get these guys because they spend the money elsewhere. Just for once I'd like to see them go out and get a decent reliever instead of counting on miracles. I'd much rather play Willie and can "Son of Mike Jackson" in favor of someone that might actually be able to pitch for a change.Yes, KW has struck out with Rick White and Mike Jackson. But he has also struck gold with Damaso Marte and Shingo Takatsu. So it's not guaranteed he will fail. And Rick White money is, I'm sure, in line with what Tanyan Sturtze made with the Yankees this year and comparable to other quality relievers in the league, closers aside. Since the Sox are looking to beef up their set up and middle relief, I don't think they have to earmark a big chunk of money for it.

Plus, if the team is competitive through the first few months of the season and the bullpen looks shaky, a Scott Sullivan-like midseason trade would not be very difficult to pull off.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2004, 06:08 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Kenny directly quoted at the end of the season that any additional money available would go towards pitching?

Has he changed his plan already?

Lip

lowesox
11-11-2004, 07:08 PM
But they've already got Cliff Politte. From past history, we should be VERY AFRAID of what Kenny will put in the Sox bullpen next year. He will probably be a direct descendant in the Rick White - Mike Jackson line. And we get these guys because they spend the money elsewhere. Just for once I'd like to see them go out and get a decent reliever instead of counting on miracles. I'd much rather play Willie and can "Son of Mike Jackson" in favor of someone that might actually be able to pitch for a change.
Wow. Didn't read this til just now. Great post. Very funny!

Parrothead
11-11-2004, 09:06 PM
:tomatoaward