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View Full Version : Big Market Small Market ? Where does Chicago fit


Fenway
11-09-2004, 12:37 PM
I don't know how baseball will ever sort this mess out but the game will be in trouble until there is a limit to what teams can spend.

I am sure Red Sox ownership would rather NOT pay $120 M a year in payroll which in turn causes the team to have the highest ticket prices by far. But as long as they are in the same division with Steinbrenner they have to spend.
The Red Sox are not as profitable as one would think as their debt service on the sale runs 2 million a month.


The White Sox are labled "small market" by many in the game mainly because they are considered a distant second in their home market ( just as Anaheim, Oakland and the Mets are )

There simply is no excuse for the White Sox not spending the money. They do not have any debt service to speak of and a sweetheart lease at USCF. ( of course some wonder if the WS tried to keep attendance down to keep the rent down)

kittle42
11-09-2004, 12:48 PM
:reinsy

"Obviously, I am a stranger to you."

duke of dorwood
11-09-2004, 12:49 PM
This IS a Big Market

Like New York and LA with 2 teams

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 12:51 PM
This IS a Big Market

Like New York and LA with 2 teamsOnly a lot smaller.

duke of dorwood
11-09-2004, 12:51 PM
We are just marketed like a small market team-slogans dont work

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 12:53 PM
Only a lot smaller.
Chicago: roughly 9mil
LA: roughly 16mil
NY: roughly 22mil

So in a split of the market, it would be 11mil (NY), 8mil (LA), 4.5mil (Chicago). That puts Chicago in the same ballpark as Houston from a market size. They can probably get more than Houson in a media deal (since the broadcast would have access to the whole market), but similar #s in terms of attendance. Unless you expect that if JR spent $$$ the Cubs would suddenly draw less than 40% of the market.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 12:55 PM
We are just marketed like a small market team-slogans dont workWe had this conversation before. Half of Chicago is less than all of Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Houston and a few other cities that I've forgotten.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 12:58 PM
Chicago: roughly 9mil
LA: roughly 16mil
NY: roughly 22mil

So in a split of the market, it would be 11mil (NY), 8mil (LA), 4.5mil (Chicago). That puts Chicago in the same ballpark as Houston from a market size. They can probably get more than Houson in a media deal (since the broadcast would have access to the whole market), but similar #s in terms of attendance. Unless you expect that if JR spent $$$ the Cubs would suddenly draw less than 40% of the market.Broadcast revenue is tied to advertising revenue which depends on ratings. It doesn't matter how big the broadcast market is if nobody's watching.

Fenway
11-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Broadcast revenue is tied to advertising revenue which depends on ratings. It doesn't matter how big the broadcast market is if nobody's watching.
Case in point the New York Mets

HomeFish
11-09-2004, 01:13 PM
The Mets have been able to flush disgustingly large amounts of money down the toilet the past few years...certainly far more than the White Sox have.

Baby Fisk
11-09-2004, 01:15 PM
I believe Hangar has written numerous posts, letters to the editor, essays, articles, submissions to the United Nations Human Rights Commission, and a documentary screenplay on this subject. Over to you, Hangar... :cool:

Deadguy
11-09-2004, 01:26 PM
We had this conversation before. Half of Chicago is less than all of Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Houston and a few other cities that I've forgotten.
True. FWIW:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.xls

Half of Chicago's metropolitan population would fall somewhere between Atlanta and Houston. Then there are other factors as ratio of baseball fans in the metropolitan area who consider themselves "White Sox fans", etc.

Hangar18
11-09-2004, 01:36 PM
I believe Hangar has written numerous posts, letters to the editor, essays, articles, submissions to the United Nations Human Rights Commission, and a documentary screenplay on this subject. Over to you, Hangar... :cool:
Instead of asking amongst us, or even the Chairman himself, I travelled
to Minneapolis and asked Twin Fans if they thought the Chicago White Sox
were a BIG MARKET team, and/or if their hometown Twinkies were a BIG MARKET or SMALL MARKET TEAM.

Per Minnesota Twin Fans:

100% Responded and Said CHICAGO WHITE SOX are BIG MARKET
and that Minnesota Twins were the Small Market team.

What was most amazing was the fact there were actually 4 possible answers
to my question (Sox are big market, so are Twins/ Sox are small market, so are Twins, Twins are Big Market, SOX are small Market, etc etc.

Every single fan said CHICAGO was BIG MARKET, Minnesota was SMALL MARKET. So ........... back to Regular Scheduled Programming.

Hangar18
11-09-2004, 01:40 PM
Chicago: roughly 9mil
LA: roughly 16mil
NY: roughly 22mil

So in a split of the market, it would be 11mil (NY), 8mil (LA), 4.5mil (Chicago). That puts Chicago in the same ballpark as Houston from a market size. They can probably get more than Houson in a media deal (since the broadcast would have access to the whole market), but similar #s in terms of attendance. Unless you expect that if JR spent $$$ the Cubs would suddenly draw less than 40% of the market.
I dont buy this at all. Sounds like a REIN$DORFIAN spin here.
Chicago is 9 million people metropolitan wise. The cubs were able to take the whole Everyone-watches-us-now Pie and eat it themselves simply because
Uncle Jerry let his pocket get picked. If the SOX were to spend the Loot,
theyd get a much bigger Share ..........

WHen the SOX clinched in 1983, the whole city was watching .....
not half the city

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 01:58 PM
I dont buy this at all. Sounds like a REIN$DORFIAN spin here.
Chicago is 9 million people metropolitan wise. The cubs were able to take the whole Everyone-watches-us-now Pie and eat it themselves simply because
Uncle Jerry let his pocket get picked. If the SOX were to spend the Loot,
theyd get a much bigger Share ..........

WHen the SOX clinched in 1983, the whole city was watching .....
not half the city
To be close to half of LA, the Sox would have to dominate the Chicago market in a way that ahsn't been seen by any team in a 2-team market (8mil out of 9mil). If the Sox went out and signed Carlos Beltran, JD Drew, and Carl Pavano, then traded Konerko for RJ, there's no way they get more than 60% of the city. The Trib+Wrigley+Wrigleyville+general Cub fans is going to ensure that there's relative parity. It may not be the disadvantage they have now, but to expect them to dominate the city with say 2/3 or more of the fans is unrealistic.

Irishsox1
11-09-2004, 02:14 PM
The White Sox are a middle market team. They are not a small market or big market. They are bigger than the Twins, but not as big as the Cubs. Payroll proves that.

2004 MLB Team Payrolls

Based Upon 2004 Season as of April 9, 2004

New York Yankees $184,193,950
2Boston Red Sox $127,298,500
3Anaheim Angels $100,534,667
4New York Mets $96,660,970
5Philadelphia Phillies $93,219,167
6Los Angeles Dodgers $92,902,001
7Chicago Cubs $90,560,000
8Atlanta Braves $90,182,500

Middle Teams

9St. Louis Cardinals $83,228,333
10San Francisco Giants $82,019,166
11Seattle Mariners $81,515,834
12Houston Astros $75,397,000
13Arizona Diamondbacks $69,780,750
14Colorado Rockies $65,445,167
15Chicago White Sox $65,212,500
16Oakland Athletics $59,425,667
17San Diego Padres $55,384,833
18Texas Rangers $55,050,417

Small Market

19Minnesota Twins $53,585,000
20Baltimore Orioles $51,623,333
21Toronto Blue Jays $50,017,000
22Kansas City Royals $47,609,000
23Detroit Tigers $46,832,000
24Cincinnati Reds $46,615,250
25Florida Marlins $42,143,042
26Montreal Expos $41,197,500
27Cleveland Indians $34,319,300
28Pittsburgh Pirates $32,227,929
29Tampa Bay Devil Rays $29,556,667
30Milwaukee Brewers $27,528,500

Hangar18
11-09-2004, 02:30 PM
The White Sox are a middle market team. They are not a small market or big market. They are bigger than the Twins, but not as big as the Cubs. Payroll proves that.

2004 MLB Team Payrolls

Based Upon 2004 Season as of April 9, 2004

New York Yankees $184,193,950
2Boston Red Sox $127,298,500
3Anaheim Angels $100,534,667
4New York Mets $96,660,970
5Philadelphia Phillies $93,219,167
6Los Angeles Dodgers $92,902,001
7Chicago Cubs $90,560,000
8Atlanta Braves $90,182,500

Middle Teams

9St. Louis Cardinals $83,228,333
10San Francisco Giants $82,019,166
11Seattle Mariners $81,515,834
12Houston Astros $75,397,000
13Arizona Diamondbacks $69,780,750
14Colorado Rockies $65,445,167
15Chicago White Sox $65,212,500
16Oakland Athletics $59,425,667
17San Diego Padres $55,384,833
18Texas Rangers $55,050,417

Small Market

19Minnesota Twins $53,585,000
20Baltimore Orioles $51,623,333
21Toronto Blue Jays $50,017,000
22Kansas City Royals $47,609,000
23Detroit Tigers $46,832,000
24Cincinnati Reds $46,615,250
25Florida Marlins $42,143,042
26Montreal Expos $41,197,500
27Cleveland Indians $34,319,300
28Pittsburgh Pirates $32,227,929
29Tampa Bay Devil Rays $29,556,667
30Milwaukee Brewers $27,528,500
The WHITE SOX are Small Market because they think Small-Minded.
So if the SOX decided tomorrow they are reducing payroll to 30million ...
they suddenly are a Small Market team?

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 02:35 PM
Instead of asking amongst us, or even the Chairman himself, I travelled
to Minneapolis and asked Twin Fans if they thought the Chicago White Sox
were a BIG MARKET team, and/or if their hometown Twinkies were a BIG MARKET or SMALL MARKET TEAM.

Per Minnesota Twin Fans:

100% Responded and Said CHICAGO WHITE SOX are BIG MARKET
and that Minnesota Twins were the Small Market team.

What was most amazing was the fact there were actually 4 possible answers
to my question (Sox are big market, so are Twins/ Sox are small market, so are Twins, Twins are Big Market, SOX are small Market, etc etc.

Every single fan said CHICAGO was BIG MARKET, Minnesota was SMALL MARKET. So ........... back to Regular Scheduled Programming.You must be kidding.... If you polled everyone in Dwight, IL if Dwight was a SMALL market and Minneapolis was a LARGE market, I'd expect they would all agree with that, too. So I guess that makes Minneapolis a LARGE market.:o:

Mickster
11-09-2004, 02:46 PM
You must be kidding.... If you polled everyone in Dwight, IL if Dwight was a SMALL market and Minneapolis was a LARGE market, I'd expect they would all agree with that, too. So I guess that makes Minneapolis a LARGE market.:o:
Lies...Damn Lies and Statistics! :D:

Hangar18
11-09-2004, 03:11 PM
You must be kidding.... If you polled everyone in Dwight, IL if Dwight was a SMALL market and Minneapolis was a LARGE market, I'd expect they would all agree with that, too. So I guess that makes Minneapolis a LARGE market.:o:
If the Expos were moved to Dwight IL, yes, im sure that would be the answer.
You cant use Dwight as an example, only a ML city.

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 03:19 PM
If the Expos were moved to Dwight IL, yes, im sure that would be the answer.
You cant use Dwight as an example, only a ML city.
Try the same thing in NYC, you'll likely get a much different answer. Besides, since when does public opinion determine facts such as market size?:?:

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 03:23 PM
If the Expos were moved to Dwight IL, yes, im sure that would be the answer.
You cant use Dwight as an example, only a ML city.The point was that big and small are relative terms. To Minneapolis residents, Chicago must seem big. If I surveyed NY residents, I'd get an entirely different answer. But in reality, it doesn't matter one iota what Minneapolis or NY residents THINK. The reality is that the Chicago market is shared with another team. If the market were split evenly, half of Chicago would put the White Sox below the median. Given all the marketing resources at their disposal, it's unlikely to expect the Cubs to give up their market dominance any time soon.

JKryl
11-09-2004, 03:34 PM
Chicago: roughly 9mil
LA: roughly 16mil
NY: roughly 22mil

So in a split of the market, it would be 11mil (NY), 8mil (LA), 4.5mil (Chicago). That puts Chicago in the same ballpark as Houston from a market size. They can probably get more than Houson in a media deal (since the broadcast would have access to the whole market), but similar #s in terms of attendance. Unless you expect that if JR spent $$$ the Cubs would suddenly draw less than 40% of the market.
Of course, the problem isn't just splitting the population of the City in half. The problem is the number in the fan base. Here we have to subtract all those that couldn't care less about baseball, all the Scrub fans, and, of course, all those who hate JR because of the strike, the white flag trade, the way he treated Fisk, etc. That brings us down to the level of Rockford.

MeanFish
11-09-2004, 03:36 PM
Hey, don't knock the awesome drawing power of Dwight, IL. With that massive megalopolis formed by the likes of Braidwood, Coal City, Gardner, Seneca and Morris, how can you even question it? We're talking almost FIFTY THOUSAND PEOPLE if you round very generously. :D:

And what's more, that very same collection of urban jungles is home to such mlb-proven baseball studs as Kelly Dransfeldt and Scott Spiezio. With homegrown talent like that, the middle of the order could bat about .205 collectively, which for those keeping score is better than Joe Borchard. Are you intimidated yet? I know I am.

Edited for teal correctness.