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mdep524
11-09-2004, 11:52 AM
A lot of the talk here has centered around a potential Randy Johnson trade, but it seems like Oakland is looking to move on of their Big Three- Hudson, Mulder or Zito, an acquiring one of them could be a much better long term move for the Sox. I am not a big Zito fan, but I think KW should pursue Hudson or Mulder. Both of them are younger, cheaper and less of an injury risk than RJ. Hudson is in his contract year; Mulder is signed through '06- wouldn't it be sweet to trade for one of them and then lock him him up before he hits the market like we did with Freddie Garcia? Then we'd have a very solid Big Three of our own: Hudson/Mulder, Buehrle and Garcia.

Adding some fuel to the speculation, Bob Ryan wrote this in today's Boston Herald:
Barry Zito and Mark Mulder are being shopped by Oakland. Besides the Red Sox, other teams who are believed to have shown interest are the Yankees, Orioles, Mets, Blue Jays and White Sox. . . . http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=53215

hold2dibber
11-09-2004, 12:06 PM
I would love to have Mulder or Hudson (Zito to a lesser extent), but wonder what it would take to get one of them. I don't see the A's biting on Konerko; it's possible they'd take CLee, but my guess is they'd like younger/cheaper players. Problem is, I don't know that we have younger/cheaper players that fit the A's profile.

HomeFish
11-09-2004, 12:12 PM
I seem to recall Mulder being a Sox fan, or at least being from the area.

Still, KW has a bit of a history when it comes to trading with Oakland...

ewokpelts
11-09-2004, 12:18 PM
I seem to recall Mulder being a Sox fan, or at least being from the area.

Still, KW has a bit of a history when it comes to trading with Oakland...mulder's from the south burbs....if he can get here, the likelihood of him signing a long term deal are good...as for kenny's oakland trade history.....billy beane likes him, cuz KW's an idiot(at least if you read moneyball....he comes across as a fool).
Gene

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 12:24 PM
mulder's from the south burbs....if he can get here, the likelihood of him signing a long term deal are good...as for kenny's oakland trade history.....billy beane likes him, cuz KW's an idiot(at least if you read moneyball....he comes across as a fool).
GeneYeah, I read it, too. Beane really took Kenny for a ride getting Chad Bradford for just a minor league catcher.

mweflen
11-09-2004, 12:25 PM
I would be much more comfortable giving up a Konerko or a CLee to get Mulder. Longer return on the sacrifice than Johnson.

SoxxoS
11-09-2004, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I read it, too. Beane really took Kenny for a ride getting Chad Bradford for just a minor league catcher.


And Joe Blanton really tore it up last year.

otis
11-09-2004, 12:51 PM
I was going to post something about this. Talked to my guy over the weekend(He was a bit preoccupied last month). He told me to expect the Sox to get a really good pitcher and even if they trade for one (Lee or Konerko) they may not be done with the pitching. He said they may still sign a top guy as a free agent if the money is right and move Contreras to the bullpen. Some thing I thought were interesting:

1. Randy Johnson does not want to go to a team that has spring training in Florida. I did not realize this, but apparently he chose the Diamondbacks years ago because he lives year round in Arizona. He also has a house in Tucson which makes the Sox a very attractive choice. This coupled with the White Sox ability to have a competitive package makes them the front runners. He doesn't see Garland as part of the trade and thinks it would be Konerko, Rowand, and a prospect.

2. There is validity of the Sox trying to get one of the big three with Mulder the prized choice. A trade of Konerko and Garland could get this done with Mulder signed for this year and next with the Sox having a good chance of signing him to a fair extension for both sides.

3. If neither of the above two happen, the only option is the free agent market that does not bode well for the Sox because the top targets would get better (crazy ) offers that the Sox would not match and forcing them to sign a lesser guy.

4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 12:55 PM
1. Randy Johnson does not want to go to a team that has spring training in Florida. I did not realize this, but apparently he chose the Diamondbacks years ago because he lives year round in Arizona. He also has a house in Tucson which makes the Sox a very attractive choice. This coupled with the White Sox ability to have a competitive package makes them the front runners. He doesn't see Garland as part of the trade and thinks it would be Konerko, Rowand, and a prospect.


Just say no, unless you're going to go out and sign JD Drew or Carlos Beltran to replace Rowand. Even then, I'd rather do that, keep Rowand, and deal Konerko+Anderson/Sweeney for Mulder.

duke of dorwood
11-09-2004, 12:58 PM
Are any Oakland pitchers Boras players?

Tekijawa
11-09-2004, 01:01 PM
Is Borchard still untouchable? My guess is that someone like oakland would want a player like Gio Gonzalez or another one of our promising pitchers in return... would you include them too?

Flight #24
11-09-2004, 01:07 PM
Is Borchard still untouchable? My guess is that someone like oakland would want a player like Gio Gonzalez or another one of our promising pitchers in return... would you include them too?
I assume you're referring to me. I wouldn't include any pitching, but if we're signing Drew or beltran (which was the assumption I made), then I think we can stand the loss of one of the OF prospects and go with an OF of Drew/Beltran-ARow-Lee (and fill in for Lee in 2 years when he leaves).

Pitching is a different story entirely.

California Sox
11-09-2004, 01:09 PM
Konerko, Rowand, AND a prospect for one year of RJ at 16 mil.? I realize OF is an area of depth in the system but you trade Reed then Rowand, Borchard's a bust... is Anderson expected to start in CF next year? And who'd play right? Please, no one say Willie Harris. Willie is not an outfield solution.

Meanwhile, Anything and anything for Mulder makes sense. He's a classic lefty, young and a Chicago kid to boot. Between the two, I'd want Mulder in a heartbeat. And I've always believed Contreras belongs in the pen. He could close.

Soxzilla
11-09-2004, 01:12 PM
If we trade Rowand for RJ then I will never watch another sox game in my life.

Ugh.

...ok, maybe I'd still watch...


......BUT I'D WATCH IN PROTEST!

SoxxoS
11-09-2004, 01:14 PM
I was going to post something about this. Talked to my guy over the weekend(He was a bit preoccupied last month). He told me to expect the Sox to get a really good pitcher and even if they trade for one (Lee or Konerko) they may not be done with the pitching. He said they may still sign a top guy as a free agent if the money is right and move Contreras to the bullpen. Some thing I thought were interesting:

1. Randy Johnson does not want to go to a team that has spring training in Florida. I did not realize this, but apparently he chose the Diamondbacks years ago because he lives year round in Arizona. He also has a house in Tucson which makes the Sox a very attractive choice. This coupled with the White Sox ability to have a competitive package makes them the front runners. He doesn't see Garland as part of the trade and thinks it would be Konerko, Rowand, and a prospect.

2. There is validity of the Sox trying to get one of the big three with Mulder the prized choice. A trade of Konerko and Garland could get this done with Mulder signed for this year and next with the Sox having a good chance of signing him to a fair extension for both sides.

3. If neither of the above two happen, the only option is the free agent market that does not bode well for the Sox because the top targets would get better (crazy ) offers that the Sox would not match and forcing them to sign a lesser guy.

4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.


Thanks for the updats otis! Nice to know you are lurking.

IlliniSox
11-09-2004, 01:35 PM
mulder's from the south burbs....if he can get here, the likelihood of him signing a long term deal are good...as for kenny's oakland trade history.....billy beane likes him, cuz KW's an idiot(at least if you read moneyball....he comes across as a fool).
Gene
They interviewed him before his start at Wrigley this summer. It was only his second time ever being in the place. I also recall him getting interviewed at the Cell after a start and he said he "grew up out out in those bleachers."

The guy's a balsy competitor and he cares about the Sox. He'd probably replace Maggs immediately as the most popular guy on the team with the fans.

A move like that-I'd buy season tickets for 2 years JR!

Win1ForMe
11-09-2004, 01:53 PM
4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.I would love to get Mulder. We would probably have a good chance of resigning him seeing as how he grew up a Sox fan. But my one question is what is the deal with his 2nd half collapse? Is he having problems with his hip, and is that a chronic condition, as some have suggested?

jordan23ventura
11-09-2004, 01:55 PM
I was going to post something about this. Talked to my guy over the weekend(He was a bit preoccupied last month). He told me to expect the Sox to get a really good pitcher and even if they trade for one (Lee or Konerko) they may not be done with the pitching. He said they may still sign a top guy as a free agent if the money is right and move Contreras to the bullpen. Some thing I thought were interesting:

1. Randy Johnson does not want to go to a team that has spring training in Florida. I did not realize this, but apparently he chose the Diamondbacks years ago because he lives year round in Arizona. He also has a house in Tucson which makes the Sox a very attractive choice. This coupled with the White Sox ability to have a competitive package makes them the front runners. He doesn't see Garland as part of the trade and thinks it would be Konerko, Rowand, and a prospect.

2. There is validity of the Sox trying to get one of the big three with Mulder the prized choice. A trade of Konerko and Garland could get this done with Mulder signed for this year and next with the Sox having a good chance of signing him to a fair extension for both sides.

3. If neither of the above two happen, the only option is the free agent market that does not bode well for the Sox because the top targets would get better (crazy ) offers that the Sox would not match and forcing them to sign a lesser guy.

4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.
In a choice between RJ and Mulder, I take Mulder hands down. He can be just as dominant as Johnson, has spent his whole career in the AL and knows most all of the hitters, plus he's a Chicago guy!

Also, I'd really hate to see Rowand go. He's one of the few guys we have that you never have to question whether he's going to show up to play AND do the little things right. Trade any of the prospects except McCarthy (b/c of his ability to throw strikes and be a workhorse), Anderson (b/c he has speed, can play D, and from what I've heard hit for power and average), and Fields (b/c Crede may not make it). Just don't trade Rowand.

mdep524
11-09-2004, 02:08 PM
2. There is validity of the Sox trying to get one of the big three with Mulder the prized choice. A trade of Konerko and Garland could get this done with Mulder signed for this year and next with the Sox having a good chance of signing him to a fair extension for both sides.

4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.
Wow, thanks for your input, otis! This sounds like great news- this has the potential to be an exciting offseason.
:)

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2004, 05:01 PM
I would love to get Mulder. We would probably have a good chance of resigning him seeing as how he grew up a Sox fan. But my one question is what is the deal with his 2nd half collapse? Is he having problems with his hip, and is that a chronic condition, as some have suggested?I'd be very careful of Beane with this one. He could be pushing damaged goods. I think he knew more about Billy Koch than he let on, too.

LAWSfan
11-09-2004, 05:17 PM
I don't want any of the Little Three from the A's. None of the them have won game 5 of the ALDS. None of the have pitched in a big game and won. I think Zito lost the Sat game vs the Angels that could have kept them in the race. Is that an ace?

I also would like to see the home and road records and ERA of the A's pitchers. There is so much foul ground there that balls there that would go into the stands at other stadiums are outs. A great pitcher park.

I would also like to see the Little Three's record at Comiskey Park. (For any smart *** people, or whatever the corporate name that is now defacing the park)

Win1ForMe
11-09-2004, 07:06 PM
Here's an excerpt from AP article I found from September.

But as late summer gave way to fall, his dominance also faded in a series of increasingly bad outings for the AL West leaders. He's 0-1 with a 7.20 ERA in his last four starts, with his ERA rising to a season-high 4.13.

He was beaten up by the Rangers' potent lineup, failing to escape the seventh inning and never retiring the side in order in slipping to 17-5. Afterward, Mulder again claimed everything was fine -- and the A's aren't sure where to start looking for the problem that could be a problem in their playoff chase.

So is it an injury or a mechanical glitch that's thrown off Mulder? The A's aren't sure.

"He keeps telling us he's fine," manager Ken Macha said. "He's one of the guys, I can go out to the mound and ask how he's doing, and he'll say, 'You need to take me out.' He's a very truthful guy.

"There are concerns when someone who has pitched well in the first half isn't pitching well in the second."

Mulder's velocity has declined, and he has allowed 34 walks in his last 10 starts after yielding 44 in his first 20. In addition, Mulder has struggled to make some of the simplest pitches called by Damian Miller (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5878).

Mulder failed to execute the breaking pitch requested by Miller in the fourth inning Wednesday night, and Alfonso Soriano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6154) hit a 425-foot homer over the center-field wall. Mulder blamed himself for the mix-up.http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1883017

joe47
11-09-2004, 08:49 PM
I don't want any of the Little Three from the A's. None of the them have won game 5 of the ALDS. None of the have pitched in a big game and won. I think Zito lost the Sat game vs the Angels that could have kept them in the race. Is that an ace?

I also would like to see the home and road records and ERA of the A's pitchers. There is so much foul ground there that balls there that would go into the stands at other stadiums are outs. A great pitcher park.

I would also like to see the Little Three's record at Comiskey Park. (For any smart *** people, or whatever the corporate name that is now defacing the park)

Good point about the home vs. away records. I had trouble pulling that info on ESPN.com, but both Hudson and Mulder are ground ball out pitchers which works well with home run happen US Cellular. They rank 3rd (Hudson, 2.53 G/F) and 5th (Mulder 2.05 G/F) in the league in G/F ratio.

OEO Magglio
11-09-2004, 09:12 PM
I was going to post something about this. Talked to my guy over the weekend(He was a bit preoccupied last month). He told me to expect the Sox to get a really good pitcher and even if they trade for one (Lee or Konerko) they may not be done with the pitching. He said they may still sign a top guy as a free agent if the money is right and move Contreras to the bullpen. Some thing I thought were interesting:

1. Randy Johnson does not want to go to a team that has spring training in Florida. I did not realize this, but apparently he chose the Diamondbacks years ago because he lives year round in Arizona. He also has a house in Tucson which makes the Sox a very attractive choice. This coupled with the White Sox ability to have a competitive package makes them the front runners. He doesn't see Garland as part of the trade and thinks it would be Konerko, Rowand, and a prospect.

2. There is validity of the Sox trying to get one of the big three with Mulder the prized choice. A trade of Konerko and Garland could get this done with Mulder signed for this year and next with the Sox having a good chance of signing him to a fair extension for both sides.

3. If neither of the above two happen, the only option is the free agent market that does not bode well for the Sox because the top targets would get better (crazy ) offers that the Sox would not match and forcing them to sign a lesser guy.

4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.

As much as I would love the sox to get randy, there is no f'n way they should trade arow. Also about the big 3 I'd love to get any of 'em but especially mulder or huddy. The hip problem kind of scares me with Mark but I do think he'll be ok. Huddy is just a stud and would fit in great with the sox. Either way if we can get any of these 4 pitchers we should be in great shape for next season, imo.

MrKinsella
11-10-2004, 11:05 AM
Road ERA's for the big three over the last three years someone asked about park effect and yes Oakland is a great pitchers park.

Mulder 4.02
Zito 3.68
Hudson 3.84

each has had falling strike outs per 9 innings over the last three seasons with Mulder's being the most dramatic and zito's being the least. These are according to Bill James the most telling pitching stats in sabermetrics and we all know how billy Beane feels about that and how Kenny Williams does. This looks like Kenny Williams is going to go get Mulder for Konerko/Lee and Garland/or a top prospect or some combination. It looks so good to get Mulder but Statistically he could be Koch waiting to happen. The best news about this deal is it may free up money and give us a decent starter, if not but probably not an ace. Oh yeah the stats are from ESPN.com.

mdep524
11-10-2004, 11:13 AM
Road ERA's for the big three over the last three years someone asked about park effect and yes Oakland is a great pitchers park.

Mulder 4.02
Zito 3.68
Hudson 3.84

each has had falling strike outs per 9 innings over the last three seasons with Mulder's being the most dramatic and zito's being the least. These are according to Bill James the most telling pitching stats in sabermetrics and we all know how billy Beane feels about that and how Kenny Williams does. This looks like Kenny Williams is going to go get Mulder for Konerko/Lee and Garland/or a top prospect or some combination. It looks so good to get Mulder but Statistically he could be Koch waiting to happen. The best news about this deal is it may free up money and give us a decent starter, if not but probably not an ace. Oh yeah the stats are from ESPN.com.You'd think KW would use information like this, at the very least, to negotiate down the price of Mulder in a trade, especially knowing how important those stats are to Beane. Beat him at his own game, so to speak. But that might be too much to expect from KW... we'll see.

TDog
11-10-2004, 11:56 AM
If we trade Rowand for RJ then I will never watch another sox game in my life.

Ugh.

...ok, maybe I'd still watch...


......BUT I'D WATCH IN PROTEST!
Hey, I watched the White Sox after they traded Looie Aparicio for Luis Alvarado.

White Sox Baseball: I've seen worse.

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 02:45 PM
Road ERA's for the big three over the last three years someone asked about park effect and yes Oakland is a great pitchers park.

Mulder 4.02
Zito 3.68
Hudson 3.84
This looks like Kenny Williams is going to go get Mulder for Konerko/Lee and Garland/or a top prospect or some combination. It looks so good to get Mulder but Statistically he could be Koch waiting to happen. The best news about this deal is it may free up money and give us a decent starter, if not but probably not an ace. Oh yeah the stats are from ESPN.com.
It does? So this trade is going to happen? I know you might hate KW but at least allow him to make a deal before bad mouthing him.

rmusacch
11-13-2004, 10:20 AM
I was going to post something about this. Talked to my guy over the weekend(He was a bit preoccupied last month). He told me to expect the Sox to get a really good pitcher and even if they trade for one (Lee or Konerko) they may not be done with the pitching. He said they may still sign a top guy as a free agent if the money is right and move Contreras to the bullpen. Some thing I thought were interesting:

1. Randy Johnson does not want to go to a team that has spring training in Florida. I did not realize this, but apparently he chose the Diamondbacks years ago because he lives year round in Arizona. He also has a house in Tucson which makes the Sox a very attractive choice. This coupled with the White Sox ability to have a competitive package makes them the front runners. He doesn't see Garland as part of the trade and thinks it would be Konerko, Rowand, and a prospect.

2. There is validity of the Sox trying to get one of the big three with Mulder the prized choice. A trade of Konerko and Garland could get this done with Mulder signed for this year and next with the Sox having a good chance of signing him to a fair extension for both sides.

3. If neither of the above two happen, the only option is the free agent market that does not bode well for the Sox because the top targets would get better (crazy ) offers that the Sox would not match and forcing them to sign a lesser guy.

4. My guy thinks there is a 90% chance the SoX will get either Johnson, Zito, Mulder, or Hudson.
I would love Mulder. He is a south suburbs guy and grew up a Sox fan.

beck72
11-13-2004, 01:46 PM
I would love to get Mulder. We would probably have a good chance of resigning him seeing as how he grew up a Sox fan. But my one question is what is the deal with his 2nd half collapse? Is he having problems with his hip, and is that a chronic condition, as some have suggested?I read in an A's blog an interview w/ the author of a new book coming out on the Big 3. He said the 2nd half collapse was due to fatigue from carrying the load the 1st half of the season, with injuries and ineffectiveness to the other pitchers. And that Mulder came back earlier than expected from his late 2003 injury and wasn't able to train/ prepare for 2004 the way he had in the past.

jabrch
11-13-2004, 01:58 PM
The best news about this deal is it may free up money and give us a decent starter, if not but probably not an ace. Oh yeah the stats are from ESPN.com.

Not an ace? How many "aces" are there in baseball then?

SoxFanTillDeath
11-15-2004, 09:20 AM
I'd take mulder in a heartbeat. It would solidify the Sox claim that they are going to win with pitching, and I like the fact that they are making a claim and then backing it up.

I hope we don't include ARow in the deal, but you have to give up something to get something (see Olivo/Reed to SEA). If we can sign Mulder to a long term extension, I could live with trading EITHER Garland or Rowand, but not both.

If we trade both then we are screwed, because we don't have enough $ to sign a starter (for the 5th starting position once JG is gone), an OF (especially if Lee is traded), and a RP (so we don't have to watch "Please push me off the" Cliff Politte in the later innings).

Then again, all I do is line JR's pockets with my ticket money...my opinion doesn't matter...

SoxFanTillDeath
11-15-2004, 09:22 AM
Not an ace? How many "aces" are there in baseball then?

Duh, don't you understand? They're only an ace is ESPN says they are! Get a clue!

TheBull19
11-15-2004, 03:31 PM
Yeah, I read it, too. Beane really took Kenny for a ride getting Chad Bradford for just a minor league catcher.You mean that minor league catcher he used to acquire Garcia? Yeah, KW really got burned there

jabrch
11-15-2004, 03:53 PM
I'd call Mulder and Hudson sure aces...and Zito a #1/#2 ala Garcia/Buehrle.