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View Full Version : City of Angels: Is it Anaheim or L.A.?


Baby Fisk
11-09-2004, 12:18 PM
Selig has reportedly given the OK for the Angels franchise to change its name to its original Los Angeles Angels. People in Anaheim are ticked off.

Report: Selig OKs "Los Angeles" Angels (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1918726)

What should the name of this franchise be? I kinda liked it when they were the California Angels.

pinwheels3530
11-09-2004, 12:27 PM
They should be called the LA Angels......they got a owner who isn't satisfied with being second fiddle.

HomeFish
11-09-2004, 01:05 PM
They still play in Anaheim, yes, or at least in suburban LA?

If I were a resident of LA, I would be ticked that a team that doesn't play in my city is using my name. If I were a resident of Anaheim or whatever suburb their stadium is in, I would be ticked that they are abandoning the locals.

However, when it comes to cities, there are very few ones that I care for less than LA. So I'm going to have to go with "Who cares?"

Fenway
11-09-2004, 01:24 PM
The Orioles are another team that have "forgotten" where their home is. All thir press releases simply call the team the Orioles

Baby Fisk
11-09-2004, 01:36 PM
The Orioles are another team that have "forgotten" where their home is. All thir press releases simply call the team the OriolesPeter Angelos must want it that way to cater to the entire DC-area market, now that he's got unwelcome competition.

BTW, I voted "California Angels" for sentimental reasons. It would be neat if they went back to those old "Big A" unies with the black & red trim too.

longshot7
11-09-2004, 02:06 PM
As an Angels season-ticketholder, I can assure you - the Anaheim Angels are NOT changing their name. They're a hour away from LA proper, and the city of Anaheim has too much money wrapped in with the team. I think Selig wanted it changed - but no way Arte Moreno does it. They would also have a huge backlash from their fans - people in the OC hate being grouped in with Angelenos.

Nick@Nite
11-09-2004, 04:27 PM
How about Hell's Angels. You know, the SoCal/Eagles thing... "You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave".
:kneeslap:

Brian26
11-09-2004, 04:30 PM
The whole thing is a friggin' joke.

They won the World Series two years ago as the Anaheim Angels. They should remain as the Anaheim Angels.

I guess last year they removed "Anaheim" from all of their promotional items and letterhead, and it was even removed from their uniforms. What a shame. If I was a resident of Anaheim and the team changed to the LA Angels, I'd be pissed.

pinwheels3530
11-09-2004, 04:51 PM
Have anyone seen the LA Angels throw back hats there pretty cool looking.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-09-2004, 05:10 PM
I voted for LA, but after abandoning that name nearly 40 years ago Anaheim ought to work just as well. I'm all for tradition and either of these two names works just fine.

For decades LA's entry in the Pacific Coast League was the Los Angeles Angels. The American League's expansion team took their original moniker from this old AAA team. The name "California" and "Anaheim" didn't come until much later.

It's worth noting the San Diego Padres are also named for the old Pacific Coast League team that previously used that moniker. Seattle's PCL team was known as the Rainiers, a far better name than either Pilots or Mariners IMHO.

Frankly, the Angels should never have given up the name LA. The Dodgers' Walt O'Malley did everything he could to push the Angels out of the city, including preventing them from playing in the LA Coliseum. That's how the Angels ended up in Wrigley Field. Later he charged the Angels for unused toilet paper at Dodger Stadium. The man was relentless.
:cool:

LAWSfan
11-09-2004, 05:39 PM
The California Angels is a terrible name. Why? Go 100 miles north, south, and east of Anaheim nobody is an Angel fan. (If you go 100 miles west of Anaheim it becomes very wet) There are few if any Angel fans in the SD or SF area. That's why I hate the Golden State Warriors name. There are no Warrior fans in LA or SD. Hell there may not be many Warrior fans in SF.

California isn't like Minnesota where everybody is a Twins fans. And Texas has and will always be a football state.

I like the LA Angels name. I think the city of Anaheim is just saving face because of Moreno the owner offers the city more money from the lease, the city of Anaheim will jump at it.

In 1961 they were the LA Angels playing at Wrigley Field. Arrogant cub fans forget the fact that the first night game at Wrigley Field wasn't in 1988, it was in 1961!!!!!!!!!!!! Anaheim is a suburb of LA. Even if racism, idiots who live behind the Orange Curtain don't want to admit it.

doublem23
11-09-2004, 06:16 PM
They should be the Los Angeles Angels... But I'm not holding my breath.

I really dislike when states or regions replace city's names in teams... New England Patriots, Arizona Cardinals, Florida Marlins...

:chunks

LAWSfan
11-09-2004, 06:27 PM
The Rangers play in Arlington, Texas. The Cowboys play in Irving.
The Lakers used to play in the city of Inglewood. But all of them are named after the major city. It's really not that big of a deal to be the LA Angels. Nobody knows where the hell Anaslime is anyways.

doublem23
11-09-2004, 06:33 PM
The Rangers play in Arlington, Texas. The Cowboys play in Irving.
The Lakers used to play in the city of Inglewood. But all of them are named after the major city. It's really not that big of a deal to be the LA Angels. Nobody knows where the hell Anaslime is anyways.
Texas Rangers? :?:

santo=dorf
11-09-2004, 06:34 PM
The Rangers play in Arlington, Texas. The Cowboys play in Irving.
The Lakers used to play in the city of Inglewood. But all of them are named after the major city. It's really not that big of a deal to be the LA Angels. Nobody knows where the hell Anaslime is anyways.
Which state is "Texas" in again? :wink:

Daver
11-09-2004, 06:34 PM
Which state is "Texas" in again? :wink:
Alaska.

CubsfansareDRUNK
11-09-2004, 06:44 PM
quick question: the expos are staying the expos right?

FarWestChicago
11-09-2004, 07:16 PM
They are, and should remain, the Anaheim Angels. I have always referrred to them that way. I was glad when they quit pretending and dropped the "California" stuff.

dcb33
11-09-2004, 08:26 PM
Anaheim Angels? What if the Cell was built where it was originally planned to go in Addison? Could you imagine how silly it would be to have the name of our team changed to the Addison White Sox in order to satisfy a bunch of local yokel politicians?
Just because a team resides in a particular suburb doesn't mean they should forfiet their ability to use the name of the larger metro area where they reside, which is why I don't understand why Anaheim is so upset over why the Angels to change their name to the Los Angeles Angles. Granted, Anaheim has thrown a lot of money their way, but Anaheim is a suburb (it wouldn't even exist without LA) of the larger LA metro area, and I'm sure most of their residents identify themselves to others as people from LA, much as people here who live in the Chicago suburbs say they're from the Chicago area.
Anaheim reaps the financial benefits no matter what the team is called, and I'm sure there are many other suburbs of LA that would love to have the opportunity to be the home the "Los Angeles Angels." They should stop complaining and be thankful for what they have.

whitesoxwilkes
11-09-2004, 09:43 PM
quick question: the expos are staying the expos right?

Nope, probably going to be the Nationals.

whitesoxwilkes
11-09-2004, 09:44 PM
What about the Golden State Angels?

:bandance:

oeo
11-09-2004, 10:27 PM
Why do people like the Los Angeles Angels? I think that sounds really bad for one, The Angels Angels? Nice.

Plus I hate the city of LA.

oeo

pinwheels3530
11-09-2004, 10:46 PM
With the name Los Angeles attached to the Angels, it gives the franchise more of a national appeal. Remember when the new ownership took over the team they said that they were going to make the Angels a brand name to rival the Dodgers.

I think it's a great move marketing and PR wise for the Angels. I wish we had a ownership team here on the southside that wouldn't settle for playing second fiddle to the Cubs......remember "Chicago has always been a Cubs town!"

So bottom line I say go for it LA Angels brings back alot of tradition plus retro appeal to a division that really has no historic teams beside the Oakland A's.

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 05:03 AM
Texas Rangers? :?:
Haha like nobody makes a mistake? The Detroit Pistons play in Auburn Hills, Michigan. One other example of a team playing in a suburb.

longshot7
11-10-2004, 01:15 PM
Anaheim Angels? What if the Cell was built where it was originally planned to go in Addison? Could you imagine how silly it would be to have the name of our team changed to the Addison White Sox in order to satisfy a bunch of local yokel politicians?
Just because a team resides in a particular suburb doesn't mean they should forfiet their ability to use the name of the larger metro area where they reside, which is why I don't understand why Anaheim is so upset over why the Angels to change their name to the Los Angeles Angles. Granted, Anaheim has thrown a lot of money their way, but Anaheim is a suburb (it wouldn't even exist without LA) of the larger LA metro area, and I'm sure most of their residents identify themselves to others as people from LA, much as people here who live in the Chicago suburbs say they're from the Chicago area.
Anaheim reaps the financial benefits no matter what the team is called, and I'm sure there are many other suburbs of LA that would love to have the opportunity to be the home the "Los Angeles Angels." They should stop complaining and be thankful for what they have.
I'd like to point out that Anaheim is NOT a suburb of LA. That's like saying South Bend or Gary are suburbs of Chicago. Anaheim is an hour away from LA proper - and Orange County and LA County are EONS apart in spirit and mind-set.

I think that emphasizing the differences between the Angels and the blue team up north, like the Cubs & Sox, is a good thing. Angels fans are not Dodgers fans - they shouldn't have to share a city name too. Besides, I agree with whoever said that the Los Angeles Angels sounds like a ridiculous redundancy.

Lip Man 1
11-10-2004, 01:41 PM
There was a story on ESPN.com yesterday on this. The mayor of the city of Anaheim and the city council of Anaheim are about to scream bloody murder if a change is made in the 'official' name.

I don't know what kind of an impact that would make but just letting you know about it.

Lip

LAWSfan
11-10-2004, 03:25 PM
I'd like to point out that Anaheim is NOT a suburb of LA. That's like saying South Bend or Gary are suburbs of Chicago. Anaheim is an hour away from LA proper - and Orange County and LA County are EONS apart in spirit and mind-set.

I think that emphasizing the differences between the Angels and the blue team up north, like the Cubs & Sox, is a good thing. Angels fans are not Dodgers fans - they shouldn't have to share a city name too. Besides, I agree with whoever said that the Los Angeles Angels sounds like a ridiculous redundancy.
LA is the City of Angels. Thus the name. How far is Northbrook or Lake Forest from the Chicago? But they are a suburb of Chicago. Thus Anaheim is a suburb of LA.

ondafarm
11-10-2004, 03:29 PM
I'm still waiting to name a team, the St Louis Ordinals . . .

DSpivack
11-10-2004, 04:01 PM
LA is the City of Angels. Thus the name. How far is Northbrook or Lake Forest from the Chicago? But they are a suburb of Chicago. Thus Anaheim is a suburb of LA.
Northbrook: 33,000 people. 26 Miles from Chicago.

Lake Forest: 20,000 people. 34 Miles from Chicago.

Anaheim: 330,000 people. 26 Miles from Los Angeles.

Northbrook and Lake Forest are suburbs because they are small, residential communities.

Although the distance is the same, calling Anaheim a suburb is a little ridiculous. It has a third of a million people. When Milwaukee and Chicago are one contiguous metropolitan area, will Milwaukee be a suburb?

Is Philly a suburb of NY? Baltimore a suburb of DC? Why can't you consider San Diego a suburb of LA? Oakland a suburb of NY? SF/Oakland suburbs of San Jose?

It's hard to define what is and what is not a suburb, simply because the vastness that are some metropolitan areas. And none are bigger than LA.
50 years ago Libertyville, Elgin, Glen Ellyn, et al were not even close to being suburbs. Now the metro area of Chicago stretches far beyond those towns.

Where do the Angels play? Anaheim. Let 'em keep it that way.

One good thing about Chicago is that there isn't any doubt that every team, yes even the Cubs, are Chicago teams. Then again, all of Atlanta's teams play in the actual city limits, as well. I can't think of any other metro areas that have all four sports where this is the case.

Fenway
11-10-2004, 05:04 PM
Northbrook: 33,000 people. 26 Miles from Chicago.

One good thing about Chicago is that there isn't any doubt that every team, yes even the Cubs, are Chicago teams. Then again, all of Atlanta's teams play in the actual city limits, as well. I can't think of any other metro areas that have all four sports where this is the case.
ummm Philadelphia?????

Baby Fisk
11-10-2004, 05:31 PM
Then again, all of Atlanta's teams play in the actual city limits, as well. I can't think of any other metro areas that have all four sports where this is the case.All of Toronto's teams play downtown, literally next door to each other (Blue Jays & CFL Argonauts in Skydome, Maple Leafs & Raptors in the Air Canada Centre).

doublem23
11-10-2004, 05:43 PM
Even though half its teams' take the name Colorado, I think the Rockies, Avalanche, Nuggets, and Broncos all play in the city of Denver.

Of cities that have 3 of the 4 Major sports, I think Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Seattle have all their teams play in their cities.

ChiSoxRowand
11-11-2004, 01:15 AM
A lot of teams play in suburbs or other cities. The Redskins in landover, the Pats in Foxboro, the Jets and Giants in East Rutherford, the cards in Tempe, The Cowboys in Irving, etc. Those are smaller cities and Los Angeles Angels sounds dumb. I also heard that Miami wants the Marlins to change their name to the Miami Marlins if they get a new stadium.

LAWSfan
11-11-2004, 02:11 AM
.

Where do the Angels play? Anaheim. Let 'em keep it that way.

One good thing about Chicago is that there isn't any doubt that every team, yes even the Cubs, are Chicago teams. Then again, all of Atlanta's teams play in the actual city limits, as well. I can't think of any other metro areas that have all four sports where this is the case.
This state shows you know little to nothing about the history of the Angels. 1961 they were the Los Angeles Angels. In 1966 or so they moved to Anaheim and were called the California Angels until the mouse bought the team and changed the name.

If anything they should go back to California Angels but that's been talked about before. So the Detroit Pistons should be the Auburn Hills Pistons right? The Dallas Cowboys should be the Irving Cowboys. PLEASE.

BigEdWalsh
11-11-2004, 03:38 AM
I admit that I was tempted to vote Who Cares, but I voted for LA Angels. I'm all for tradition. :cool:

longshot7
11-11-2004, 01:08 PM
This state shows you know little to nothing about the history of the Angels. 1961 they were the Los Angeles Angels. In 1966 or so they moved to Anaheim and were called the California Angels until the mouse bought the team and changed the name.
The operative words here being "moved out of LA." What's wrong with ANAHEIM Angels - they don't play in LA - and Anaheim is NOT a suburb.

Suburbs of Chicago are called "greater Chicago" or "Chicagoland." Orange County is not called "greater LA" - it's just "Orange County" & the whole area is called "The Southland." to incorporate the huge geographic area.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-11-2004, 01:27 PM
Does a city of 330,000 deserve to have its name associated with the naming of a major league sports franchise?

I can think of only one town smaller than Anaheim with its name attached to the team, and that's the Green Bay Packers. Even Oakland (with the Oakland Athletics) has roughly 100,000 more souls than Anaheim. That's over 20 percent bigger than Anaheim for those of you keeping score at home.
:cool:

Green Bay's population is barely 100,000 but, unlike Anaheim or Oakland, does not have an attachment to a larger U.S. Census-defined megalopolis tract like "LA/Orange County/San Diego", "Washington/Baltimore/N. Virginia", "New York/New Jersey/Connecticut", or even "Chicago/Milwaukee/NW Indiana." Besides Green Bay, Anaheim, and Oakland, any team playing in a smaller town near a major city uses the name of the nearby big city or the name of the state.

Letting Anaheim have its name on the team is stretching what "major league" is supposed to mean, especially since the team has changed its name twice in the 40+ years since the franchise was created.

LAWSfan
11-11-2004, 01:29 PM
The operative words here being "moved out of LA." What's wrong with ANAHEIM Angels - they don't play in LA - and Anaheim is NOT a suburb.

Suburbs of Chicago are called "greater Chicago" or "Chicagoland." Orange County is not called "greater LA" - it's just "Orange County" & the whole area is called "The Southland." to incorporate the huge geographic area.
This is like talking to a wall. Anaheim IS a suburb of LA. Even if it is in the Orange Curtain. Get that through your thick head. Even if people who live in Anaslime won't admit it. Ask 100 people outside of CA if they know where Anaheim is. How many would know? Maybe 2. Ask the same 100 people where Los Angeles is and at least 99 would know. There's your answer.

FarWestChicago
11-11-2004, 01:51 PM
Ask the same 100 people where Los Angeles is and at least 99 would know. You SERIOUSLY overestimate the geographical knowledge of the average American. Out of 100 people you would find at least a few who wouldn't even know LaLaLand was in the US. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/redneck.gif

doublem23
11-11-2004, 03:03 PM
You SERIOUSLY overestimate the geographical knowledge of the average American. Out of 100 people you would find at least a few who wouldn't even know LaLaLand was in the US. http://www.flyingsock.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/redneck.gifI agree. I would venture to say that at least 25% of Americans couldn't identify more than 5 states by name on a blank map.

dcb33
11-11-2004, 05:08 PM
I'd like to point out that Anaheim is NOT a suburb of LA. That's like saying South Bend or Gary are suburbs of Chicago. Anaheim is an hour away from LA proper - and Orange County and LA County are EONS apart in spirit and mind-set.

I think that emphasizing the differences between the Angels and the blue team up north, like the Cubs & Sox, is a good thing. Angels fans are not Dodgers fans - they shouldn't have to share a city name too. Besides, I agree with whoever said that the Los Angeles Angels sounds like a ridiculous redundancy.
LA County and Orange County may be EONS apart in spirit and mind-set, but you could say the same thing about Cook and DuPage Counties. Just because Anaheim has 300,000 some odd people doesn't change the fact that it was swallowed up in the post World War II suburban expansion, and although it may be a totally different from LA Proper, I fail to see how that makes it any different from a large Chicago suburb like Naperville (which I think is the 4th largest city in all of Illinois and completely different from the city). The team's intentions seem honest enough, to create more national appeal and to attract fans from from all parts of the LA area, so changing the name back to what it originally was doesn't seem like a bad idea at all whether Anaheim is a suburb or not.

At any rate, I will never like or cheer for the Angels as long as their mascot is that stupid Rally Monkey.

eshunn2001
11-11-2004, 05:24 PM
They still play in Anaheim, yes, or at least in suburban LA?

If I were a resident of LA, I would be ticked that a team that doesn't play in my city is using my name. If I were a resident of Anaheim or whatever suburb their stadium is in, I would be ticked that they are abandoning the locals.

However, when it comes to cities, there are very few ones that I care for less than LA. So I'm going to have to go with "Who cares?"
Yes they play in Anaheim. And should be called the Anahiem Angels. I live here and the Angels fans are PO'ed. But I only go there when the Sox are in town anyways.

ode to veeck
11-11-2004, 09:38 PM
Which state is "Texas" in again?
uh, that would be disarray

ode to veeck
11-11-2004, 09:41 PM
Out of 100 people you would find at least a few who wouldn't even know LaLaLand was in the US
uh, West, actually, many (conventional wisdom prevailing) consider LALA Land not to be a part of the US, let alone California :redneck

PaleHoseGeorge
11-11-2004, 10:00 PM
I agree. I would venture to say that at least 25% of Americans couldn't identify more than 5 states by name on a blank map.
Well, I can only vouch for the PHG household, but I'm very proud that both Pants (6 years-old) and Sweetpea (8 years-old) can find every state in the union. There is a large map of the U.S. hanging in his bedroom and we have spent the past weeks and months playing a game before bedtime (and after reading time) where I call out a state and they find it on the map. It got to the point they were bored with states so we switched to major cities, rivers, and bodies of water. Now we even dabble in Canadian provinces.
:wink:

Oh, and Mrs. PHG tells me while driving home in our TurboGirl minivan, Pants told her he learned how to make a topographical map in the first grade this week. Yes, he used the word topographical, too. Mountains, river, ocean, the whole enchilada... maybe it's time we switched to world history lessons instead?
:cool:

ChiSoxRowand
11-11-2004, 10:13 PM
I'd say Anaheim Angels would be the wrong name if it was a smaller city. Landover Redskins would be stupid.

RKMeibalane
11-11-2004, 10:15 PM
I agree. I would venture to say that at least 25% of Americans couldn't identify more than 5 states by name on a blank map.
I agree. Have you ever seen the show Street Smarts? There have been people on that show who don't even know that this country is the United States of America. Apparently, some of them think we're all living in Europe at the moment.

DSpivack
11-12-2004, 02:37 AM
ummm Philadelphia?????
Well I'm dumb.

DSpivack
11-12-2004, 02:44 AM
This state shows you know little to nothing about the history of the Angels. 1961 they were the Los Angeles Angels. In 1966 or so they moved to Anaheim and were called the California Angels until the mouse bought the team and changed the name.

If anything they should go back to California Angels but that's been talked about before. So the Detroit Pistons should be the Auburn Hills Pistons right? The Dallas Cowboys should be the Irving Cowboys. PLEASE.
I did know the Angels' former names, I just meant keep it how it is right now. I think the whole thing of suburb/city and team identity is a question of degree; although I think LA is a unique case. The Los Angeles area seems somewhat unusual for a city it's size because there is little identity with the downtown area, as there are many commercial centers. My grandmother lives near Century City, but even around those parts you have Century City, Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, and Westwood all with decently built up "mini-downtowns." That is why comparing LA/Anaheim to places 'back east' is such a hard thing to do.

longshot7
11-12-2004, 03:29 PM
This is like talking to a wall. Anaheim IS a suburb of LA.
You are wrong. Two questions: 1) How long have you lived here? and 2) have you ever been to an Angels game?

sure, Anaheim is smaller, population-wise, than LA proper, but the name is really representative of all Orange County, a place that prides itself on its separate identity from Los Angeles. That is why the name change is a big deal.

That said, the stuff above about geography is pretty true - how sad is that?

LAWSfan
11-12-2004, 04:49 PM
You are wrong. Two questions: 1) How long have you lived here? and 2) have you ever been to an Angels game?

sure, Anaheim is smaller, population-wise, than LA proper, but the name is really representative of all Orange County, a place that prides itself on its separate identity from Los Angeles. That is why the name change is a big deal.

That said, the stuff above about geography is pretty true - how sad is that?26 years. If you think that the name Anaheim represents south county you clearly don't know what you're talking about. South County people don't want anything to do with the name Anaheim.

All the time. A lot before the lucky 2002 season. When they practically gave away tixs. There were no Angel fans. 20,000 for most games. During the mid 90's when the Indians came, you would have thought you were in the mistake by the lake. Now all the frontrunners are out.

Ask people where is Disneyland? They will say LA not Anaslime. That is after you correct them and say that you're not talking about Disney World which is in Orlando.

A.T. Money
11-14-2004, 04:31 AM
I've never heard anyone say Did-ney Land was in LA. People know of Anaheim.

Are the Mighty Ducks going to lose the Anaheim name too?

BTW...Anaheim is a city. It's not a burb.

longshot7
11-15-2004, 01:27 PM
from the LA Times:

"In a meeting, Anaheim city officials emphasized there would be no negotiation on the topic (of a name change.) The Angel Stadium lease requires the team to be called the Anaheim Angels, and the City Council voted this week to sue if the team proceeds with the name change."

I hope the Angels do the smart thing... and don't change.

LAWSfan
11-15-2004, 03:21 PM
from the LA Times:

"In a meeting, Anaheim city officials emphasized there would be no negotiation on the topic (of a name change.) The Angel Stadium lease requires the team to be called the Anaheim Angels, and the City Council voted this week to sue if the team proceeds with the name change."

I hope the Angels do the smart thing... and don't change.
So what? Ever heard of a coach who said I'm not interested in so and so job? And a week later he's the coach of that team? This is all just hard talk before negotiations.

When money talks cities will cave in. Especially a city like Anaslime with their terrible schools, high crime rate, etc.

StillMissOzzie
11-15-2004, 04:18 PM
I agree. Have you ever seen the show Street Smarts? There have been people on that show who don't even know that this country is the United States of America. Apparently, some of them think we're all living in Europe at the moment.
Yes, I've seen this show a few times. I often wonder how many people they have to go through before they find the dolts who appear on the show. The people who correctly know all the answers end up on the cutting-room floor.

SMO
:gulp:

bigfoot
11-15-2004, 04:56 PM
Which state is "Texas" in again?

IIRC, Texas is still a "Republic"

LAWSfan
11-15-2004, 05:25 PM
Which state is "Texas" in again?

IIRC, Texas is still a "Republic"
Man that joke stopped being funny how long ago? I'm sure you never made a mistake right?

longshot7
11-16-2004, 12:42 PM
When money talks cities will cave in. Especially a city like Anaslime with their terrible schools, high crime rate, etc.
What?! Are we living in the same reality?